Author Topic: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?  (Read 606 times)

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Offline earlbrown

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Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« on: August 09 2019, 05:44:34 AM »
I was at TTA308s house yesterday playing with my NECKCAR.....    I have no idea how I just noticed, but I was trying to figure out how to make a PS pump work, and I noticed the spindle arms are pointing the wrong angle.

It's a front steer setup and the arms are pointing to the inside.

Parking this thing is going to be a bitch with 3 turns lock-to-lock, no power steering, 12" slicks, and bad steering geometry.


  Bad part is I don't think I have the room to fix it.
'87 GN - 4.2L SFI Turbocharged innercooled V6 - Chrome valve covers - supra pump - 14" K&N - 52mm throttlebody - rocker shaft supports -  1/2 intake spacer - TB coolant bypass - 3" ATR exhaust tip - Alum intake pipe - NOS timing cover - chip - relocated charcoal canister - CR42's - stock

Offline wmsonta

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #1 on: August 09 2019, 10:22:05 AM »
Oh boy, anti-Ackerman on the street.

Due to the large design radius of nascars, it should be somewhat street able. Power steering or increased ratio steering should be the answer. R&P steering?
Is there a gym membership in your future?

Offline earlbrown

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #2 on: August 09 2019, 12:50:10 PM »
My TVR doesn't have power steering. And when I bought my '76 'vette, I had to pop the belt off to drive the car home and it was fine without PS... 
.    but they didn't have 12" wide front tires either.   

I don't think the puny column bracket on the NECKCAR would let me drive it without power assist.  I have a feeling I'd rip that little thing off the roll cage.


It looks like I'm going to have to put the PS pump where the A/C compressor used to be.  Now I have to wonder how a Mudstang rack'npinion pump will work on a NECKCAR steering box..    Even worse wondering if the pump's going to get pissed for being mounted upside down.

What's amazing is just how WIDE a damn modular Ford engine is.   I BARELY got the thing in place width-wise.   AND the pan still hangs down 1.5" below the frame with the engine damn near touching the hood.  (I wanna say ride height has the frame about 2.5" off the ground)

'87 GN - 4.2L SFI Turbocharged innercooled V6 - Chrome valve covers - supra pump - 14" K&N - 52mm throttlebody - rocker shaft supports -  1/2 intake spacer - TB coolant bypass - 3" ATR exhaust tip - Alum intake pipe - NOS timing cover - chip - relocated charcoal canister - CR42's - stock

Offline nocooler

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #3 on: August 09 2019, 02:34:35 PM »
Electric? https://youtu.be/Yy6oQPJJ2qY

For the pump.
IhaveaV8

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #4 on: August 09 2019, 08:01:30 PM »
show us some pics!  (of the car, Earl!)

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Offline wmsonta

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #5 on: August 09 2019, 09:41:27 PM »
My TVR doesn't have power steering. ... 
.    but they didn't have 12" wide front tires either.   

I don't think the puny column bracket on the NECKCAR would let me drive it without power assist.  I have a feeling I'd rip that little thing off the roll cage.

Which TVR?
There is a little more to it than 12" tires. I do not know about 'speedway' cars but, I have seen track cars that were virtually impossible to turn sitting still.

If your spindle steering arms are pointed both to the inside and that is all, you are lucky.

Depending on how fast the car was designed to run, it could/would have had positive caster outside any normal street limits. I do know, the speedway cars can have different springs/shock valving on all 4 corners.

The anti-Ackerman cars I was familiar with had a long and a short pair of A-arms. They had a long and a short spindle steer arm. Those cars were meant to run slower and make much tighter left turns. These cars were not the modern rear steer dirt cars of today.

Offline daveismissing

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Offline earlbrown

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #7 on: August 10 2019, 04:04:09 AM »

Which TVR?
There is a little more to it than 12" tires. I do not know about 'speedway' cars but, I have seen track cars that were virtually impossible to turn sitting still.

If your spindle steering arms are pointed both to the inside and that is all, you are lucky.

Depending on how fast the car was designed to run, it could/would have had positive caster outside any normal street limits. I do know, the speedway cars can have different springs/shock valving on all 4 corners.

The anti-Ackerman cars I was familiar with had a long and a short pair of A-arms. They had a long and a short spindle steer arm. Those cars were meant to run slower and make much tighter left turns. These cars were not the modern rear steer dirt cars of today.

This one is an ex-Boris Said road course car.   Two owners ago, they were converting it back to oval (for some damn reason), but my upper A-arms are the same length. I haven't pulled the lowers yet to measure them.   It came with mismatched front springs, so they were definitely planning on ruining the car.

  The rear came with struts in place of the shocks and no springs.   Oddly enough, a set of four rear Lightning shocks are what I'm going to put on the car.  They had the right ends and lengths to work (without the really F'ing STUPID comp/rebound rates of ''racing'' springs).   And I found a ''NOS'' set of ARCA spring on the eBays.  I haven't done the rear axle yet because I've been playing hell finding a 31 spline 9" chunk that's not a million dollars.

 I still need to buy some front springs (after a wild ass guess as to what rate works on the street), finish the wire diet on the HORRIBLE factory Ford harness, and bust it off in it's new home.    It sure would have been nice if my NECKCAR was a Chevy instead of a Taurus.    Putting in a GM drivetrain would have been lightyears easier than having to retrofit a Mudstang drivetrain.
'87 GN - 4.2L SFI Turbocharged innercooled V6 - Chrome valve covers - supra pump - 14" K&N - 52mm throttlebody - rocker shaft supports -  1/2 intake spacer - TB coolant bypass - 3" ATR exhaust tip - Alum intake pipe - NOS timing cover - chip - relocated charcoal canister - CR42's - stock

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #8 on: August 10 2019, 08:35:00 AM »
 :rock: :icon_fU: :icon_fU: :icon_madu: :icon_fU: :icon_madu: :rock:
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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline wmsonta

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #9 on: August 10 2019, 09:15:47 AM »
"This one is an ex-Boris Said road course car."
There is the answer as to why they needed anti-Ackerman geometry for both right/left turns. I wondered.


"but my upper A-arms are the same length. I haven't pulled the lowers yet to measure them."
I would wait until it goes on an alignment rack. Street caster will reduce steering effort. Now, you are trying to m/c road race w/chopper rake. If the camber is/can be made reasonable, you are good.


 "I haven't done the rear axle yet because I've been playing hell finding a 31 spline 9" chunk that's not a million dollars."
FoMoCo produced large numbers of 31 spline axles in tow package 3/4 t. and nearly all 1 t. trks, various hypo cars. The big N carrier housings will always be high priced and generally unnecessary.


I believe you are a m/c racer. This car may have found a home. Trials, motocross racers are typically waay more physical than they look. When done, this car will probably require more effort than your Buick to drive.

My weekends get hectic, good luck.

Offline earlbrown

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #10 on: August 10 2019, 07:51:49 PM »
The amount of adjustments on this cars suspension are ridiculous.  I can move the lower A-arms all over the place, I can move the upper mounts up and down. On the drag link, the tie rods can be independently moved up and down.


......and on the back I have solid truck arms from a '65 chevy truck.




I drove my Buick yesterday for the first time in about two months.   Couldn't wait to put that POS back in the carport and walk away from it.
'87 GN - 4.2L SFI Turbocharged innercooled V6 - Chrome valve covers - supra pump - 14" K&N - 52mm throttlebody - rocker shaft supports -  1/2 intake spacer - TB coolant bypass - 3" ATR exhaust tip - Alum intake pipe - NOS timing cover - chip - relocated charcoal canister - CR42's - stock

Offline Pyro6

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #11 on: August 10 2019, 10:29:18 PM »
If I wasn't so busy I would offer to align the thing. I just don't think we could seriously discuss thrust angle.

Offline earlbrown

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #12 on: August 11 2019, 07:31:20 AM »
I've got access to an aglinement machine. That's the rack I plan on using to attach my Chinese SS mustang headers to the boom tube.

   I did ask the owner of the rack if he had alignment specs for an 02 Ford Taurus. :)



  Honestly I have no idea were to even put the alignment.  With reverse ackerman, it might want tow out.   And I've only driven with tow out once (76 vette on the way home with it) and it was HORRIBLE.   I could hit bubblegum with one front tire and the car would try and jump off the road.

   I wanted to two it to the shop and see where it was at. With the jack screws I could set it at right height without the engine installed and see what thick shims I need for the upper A-arms  (or if I need shorter arms).
'87 GN - 4.2L SFI Turbocharged innercooled V6 - Chrome valve covers - supra pump - 14" K&N - 52mm throttlebody - rocker shaft supports -  1/2 intake spacer - TB coolant bypass - 3" ATR exhaust tip - Alum intake pipe - NOS timing cover - chip - relocated charcoal canister - CR42's - stock

Offline wmsonta

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #13 on: August 11 2019, 10:11:39 AM »
Earl, tow out is dangerous. A small amount @ slow speeds is not, but should be considered as such. Tow in and positive caster are necessary in small amounts on the street.
The POSSIBLE problem in this case is the ability of nearly unlimited adjustment and multiple owners with varied goals.

Offline Pyro6

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Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
« Reply #14 on: August 11 2019, 03:33:56 PM »
I don't think you would want to use Taurus specs since it's front wheel drive. They ran around negative 3/4 degrees in camber and 1/8 total toe out. Since you don't have power steering, the more negative caster you can stand, the better. So, when you put in on the machine and you have 4 degrees positive caster, maybe set it at 2 degrees positive and see how it does. In the old days, cars w/o P.S. usually ran negative caster. I would aim for 1/16 - 1/8 total toe in. Start at 1/4 degree positive camber and you should be fine. This should be a good starting point to play on the street, if you're are going to road course it only, you can tweak it from there.