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Tech Area => General Auto Tech => Topic started by: earlbrown on August 09 2019, 05:44:34 AM

Title: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 09 2019, 05:44:34 AM
I was at TTA308s house yesterday playing with my NECKCAR.....    I have no idea how I just noticed, but I was trying to figure out how to make a PS pump work, and I noticed the spindle arms are pointing the wrong angle.

It's a front steer setup and the arms are pointing to the inside.

Parking this thing is going to be a bitch with 3 turns lock-to-lock, no power steering, 12" slicks, and bad steering geometry.


  Bad part is I don't think I have the room to fix it.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 09 2019, 10:22:05 AM
Oh boy, anti-Ackerman on the street.

Due to the large design radius of nascars, it should be somewhat street able. Power steering or increased ratio steering should be the answer. R&P steering?
Is there a gym membership in your future?
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 09 2019, 12:50:10 PM
My TVR doesn't have power steering. And when I bought my '76 'vette, I had to pop the belt off to drive the car home and it was fine without PS... 
.    but they didn't have 12" wide front tires either.   

I don't think the puny column bracket on the NECKCAR would let me drive it without power assist.  I have a feeling I'd rip that little thing off the roll cage.


It looks like I'm going to have to put the PS pump where the A/C compressor used to be.  Now I have to wonder how a Mudstang rack'npinion pump will work on a NECKCAR steering box..    Even worse wondering if the pump's going to get pissed for being mounted upside down.

What's amazing is just how WIDE a damn modular Ford engine is.   I BARELY got the thing in place width-wise.   AND the pan still hangs down 1.5" below the frame with the engine damn near touching the hood.  (I wanna say ride height has the frame about 2.5" off the ground)

Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: nocooler on August 09 2019, 02:34:35 PM
Electric? https://youtu.be/Yy6oQPJJ2qY (https://youtu.be/Yy6oQPJJ2qY)

For the pump.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Steve Wood on August 09 2019, 08:01:30 PM
show us some pics!  (of the car, Earl!)

Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 09 2019, 09:41:27 PM
My TVR doesn't have power steering. ... 
.    but they didn't have 12" wide front tires either.   

I don't think the puny column bracket on the NECKCAR would let me drive it without power assist.  I have a feeling I'd rip that little thing off the roll cage.

Which TVR?
There is a little more to it than 12" tires. I do not know about 'speedway' cars but, I have seen track cars that were virtually impossible to turn sitting still.

If your spindle steering arms are pointed both to the inside and that is all, you are lucky.

Depending on how fast the car was designed to run, it could/would have had positive caster outside any normal street limits. I do know, the speedway cars can have different springs/shock valving on all 4 corners.

The anti-Ackerman cars I was familiar with had a long and a short pair of A-arms. They had a long and a short spindle steer arm. Those cars were meant to run slower and make much tighter left turns. These cars were not the modern rear steer dirt cars of today.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: daveismissing on August 09 2019, 10:04:44 PM
electric assist?
https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/mod-custom-forum/787114-best-200-mod-ever-eps-7.html#post6037649
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 10 2019, 04:04:09 AM

Which TVR?
There is a little more to it than 12" tires. I do not know about 'speedway' cars but, I have seen track cars that were virtually impossible to turn sitting still.

If your spindle steering arms are pointed both to the inside and that is all, you are lucky.

Depending on how fast the car was designed to run, it could/would have had positive caster outside any normal street limits. I do know, the speedway cars can have different springs/shock valving on all 4 corners.

The anti-Ackerman cars I was familiar with had a long and a short pair of A-arms. They had a long and a short spindle steer arm. Those cars were meant to run slower and make much tighter left turns. These cars were not the modern rear steer dirt cars of today.

This one is an ex-Boris Said road course car.   Two owners ago, they were converting it back to oval (for some damn reason), but my upper A-arms are the same length. I haven't pulled the lowers yet to measure them.   It came with mismatched front springs, so they were definitely planning on ruining the car.

  The rear came with struts in place of the shocks and no springs.   Oddly enough, a set of four rear Lightning shocks are what I'm going to put on the car.  They had the right ends and lengths to work (without the really F'ing STUPID comp/rebound rates of ''racing'' springs).   And I found a ''NOS'' set of ARCA spring on the eBays.  I haven't done the rear axle yet because I've been playing hell finding a 31 spline 9" chunk that's not a million dollars.

 I still need to buy some front springs (after a wild ass guess as to what rate works on the street), finish the wire diet on the HORRIBLE factory Ford harness, and bust it off in it's new home.    It sure would have been nice if my NECKCAR was a Chevy instead of a Taurus.    Putting in a GM drivetrain would have been lightyears easier than having to retrofit a Mudstang drivetrain.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Steve Wood on August 10 2019, 08:35:00 AM
 :rock: :icon_fU: :icon_fU: :icon_madu: :icon_fU: :icon_madu: :rock:
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 10 2019, 09:15:47 AM
"This one is an ex-Boris Said road course car."
There is the answer as to why they needed anti-Ackerman geometry for both right/left turns. I wondered.


"but my upper A-arms are the same length. I haven't pulled the lowers yet to measure them."
I would wait until it goes on an alignment rack. Street caster will reduce steering effort. Now, you are trying to m/c road race w/chopper rake. If the camber is/can be made reasonable, you are good.


 "I haven't done the rear axle yet because I've been playing hell finding a 31 spline 9" chunk that's not a million dollars."
FoMoCo produced large numbers of 31 spline axles in tow package 3/4 t. and nearly all 1 t. trks, various hypo cars. The big N carrier housings will always be high priced and generally unnecessary.


I believe you are a m/c racer. This car may have found a home. Trials, motocross racers are typically waay more physical than they look. When done, this car will probably require more effort than your Buick to drive.

My weekends get hectic, good luck.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 10 2019, 07:51:49 PM
The amount of adjustments on this cars suspension are ridiculous.  I can move the lower A-arms all over the place, I can move the upper mounts up and down. On the drag link, the tie rods can be independently moved up and down.


......and on the back I have solid truck arms from a '65 chevy truck.




I drove my Buick yesterday for the first time in about two months.   Couldn't wait to put that POS back in the carport and walk away from it.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Pyro6 on August 10 2019, 10:29:18 PM
If I wasn't so busy I would offer to align the thing. I just don't think we could seriously discuss thrust angle.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 11 2019, 07:31:20 AM
I've got access to an aglinement machine. That's the rack I plan on using to attach my Chinese SS mustang headers to the boom tube.

   I did ask the owner of the rack if he had alignment specs for an 02 Ford Taurus. :)



  Honestly I have no idea were to even put the alignment.  With reverse ackerman, it might want tow out.   And I've only driven with tow out once (76 vette on the way home with it) and it was HORRIBLE.   I could hit bubblegum with one front tire and the car would try and jump off the road.

   I wanted to two it to the shop and see where it was at. With the jack screws I could set it at right height without the engine installed and see what thick shims I need for the upper A-arms  (or if I need shorter arms).
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 11 2019, 10:11:39 AM
Earl, tow out is dangerous. A small amount @ slow speeds is not, but should be considered as such. Tow in and positive caster are necessary in small amounts on the street.
The POSSIBLE problem in this case is the ability of nearly unlimited adjustment and multiple owners with varied goals.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Pyro6 on August 11 2019, 03:33:56 PM
I don't think you would want to use Taurus specs since it's front wheel drive. They ran around negative 3/4 degrees in camber and 1/8 total toe out. Since you don't have power steering, the more negative caster you can stand, the better. So, when you put in on the machine and you have 4 degrees positive caster, maybe set it at 2 degrees positive and see how it does. In the old days, cars w/o P.S. usually ran negative caster. I would aim for 1/16 - 1/8 total toe in. Start at 1/4 degree positive camber and you should be fine. This should be a good starting point to play on the street, if you're are going to road course it only, you can tweak it from there.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 11 2019, 08:59:15 PM
So, when you put in on the machine and you have 4 degrees positive caster, maybe set it at 2 degrees positive and see how it does. In the old days, cars w/o P.S. usually ran negative caster. I would aim for 1/16 - 1/8 total toe in. Start at 1/4 degree positive camber and you should be fine. This should be a good starting point to play on the street, if you're are going to road course it only, you can tweak it from there.
I do not have a problem with any of that. Anything within reason. I do not see +4,+5 caster as unreasonable. IMO, the reason why 4 decades of oem A arm cars were spec'd @ -1 to +2.25 caster, was the inability to achieve +3 caster. Not possible w/oem A arms. Race cars designed for 'speedways' could have unreasonable caster for other uses. Earl should be able to change camber some w/weight jacks. My advise on tow in echo's you.

Anti-Ackerman geometry should have nothing to do with steering effort sitting still or traveling straight. I do not believe Earl will have a problem with that part of this. Steering effort @ 5 mph should be half that of sitting still. At 50 mph, his gf should be able to wheel it around.
It will never be a car I would want to parallel park.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 11 2019, 10:16:40 PM
Jeez guys...   I was being cute when I asked about ''02 Taurus'' specs.     There's not one damn thing Ford or Taurus on this car!
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 11 2019, 10:43:52 PM
That's cute, alright.
What substances were involved in the decision to street this thing?
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 12 2019, 06:08:45 AM
I like driving things on the street that have bidness on the street.  And I like to build things that can't be bought.


Plus, some rich NECKCAR fan in Peachtree City will probably force me to sell it to them for waaaaaay more than I have in it.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Pyro6 on August 12 2019, 07:33:47 AM
Jeez guys...   I was being cute when I asked about ''02 Taurus'' specs.     There's not one damn thing Ford or Taurus on this car!
Brain fart. You'd be amazed at how many times I deal with similar front end situations with guys in their street rods and custom cars.. It's just a normal day to me.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 12 2019, 10:19:25 AM
  And I like to build things

I am glad you do. To be honest, my imagination does not go that far.
I sure would like to make one hot lap though the nearby small town. Just to see if, the local Barney would self administer a sobriety test.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 12 2019, 10:24:25 AM
That's the one major downside to this car.   There's no way in hell I can outrun the cops and get away with it.


My Blazer blends, my black ''monte carlo'' blends, and all motorcycles look the same.


This thing is going to stick out even more than my H2O Nympo....

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/earlbrown/LJstuff/IM002409.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/earlbrown/media/LJstuff/IM002409.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: wmsonta on August 12 2019, 10:42:07 AM
Someone w/ulterior motives once told me 'jealousy is a self fulfilling prophesy' so....
Man, you have nice toys..........
maybe I should just cut to the chase and proposition my banker.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Forzfed on August 12 2019, 10:47:54 AM
No zoom headers on the boat? :(
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 12 2019, 11:36:49 AM
Funny you should mention that...    I'm walking out the door now heading to the machine shop to make some transom block off plates on the lathe.

The engine's out right now but it has a set of upswept drag headers and a tunnel ram going on the new BBC.


...odds are I'll go back to the log manifolds.   The last thing I need is some young chick burning her leg getting back in the boat.


   I got too many projects going on at once.  TTA308s GN engine, my boat, and my NECKCAR.   ( and I left my Yamabond and Roberts house so I couldn't build my boat engine this past weekend).
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Forzfed on August 13 2019, 02:05:04 PM
Now, only if you could move closer to the border! :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Steve Wood on August 13 2019, 04:26:08 PM
Not sure Earl is allowed into Mexico
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: daveismissing on August 13 2019, 07:44:45 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8Z5Q7nkW8LU/TBPmlj5gkzI/AAAAAAAALmM/EgTihohbzmg/s320/mexican.jpg)Disclaimer- (IN case DCEPTCN logs in again): Instead of google giving you an image for "mexican" as you had searched you got an image for THE Mexican, a syndicated columnist out of Orange County California. I'm smart is all I'm sayin'.-DCEPTCN
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Steve Wood on August 13 2019, 09:04:20 PM
https://www.gif-vif.com/Every-car-should-have-this/?fbclid=IwAR1jwzHOjvEKNiMbKQgItOdoaeIp6I-qZ68fSWSP51aToZf3pfUV1EehW1Y (https://www.gif-vif.com/Every-car-should-have-this/?fbclid=IwAR1jwzHOjvEKNiMbKQgItOdoaeIp6I-qZ68fSWSP51aToZf3pfUV1EehW1Y)


Earl, they make these for ford taurus's
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Steve Wood on August 13 2019, 09:14:22 PM
Dave, Greg Smith told me he talks to Sylvan almost every week.  He is not long haul trucking at the moment.  Think he is living in Las Vegas
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 13 2019, 09:48:44 PM

maybe I should just cut to the chase and proposition my banker.

Back when I was in the car bidness, I started banging a chick from Five Star bank.   I used to get a lot of loans done in the middle of the night and when I'd show up to the morning meeting, I'd be unshaven, in wrinkled clothes, and turn in completed deals...    when the meeting is to discuss ''80%'ers'' that should happen that day.

   Then I'd go home, shower, shave, put on clean clothes, and go back to the office.

I called it ''working late at Five Star''. :)        My GM said I was the first sales person that whored himself out for a car deal.  lol
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 13 2019, 09:52:28 PM
Oh yeah, funny aside...    The banker chick has a twin sister that was 9 months pregnant.  I'd never met her until after about 3 weeks of banging Amanda a few times a day.

  One day I'm sitting in my office looking at pr0n, when I look up and see the sister...     for about two milliseconds I just about leapt through the wall!

   That was one STRANGE feeling when I'm banging a petite 22yo cutiepie at lunch, then two hours later her twin walks in with a basketball under her shirt!!  lol



I do hate that we drifted apart before I could get ahold of the sister too. That would have been a pretty good memory to stick in the ole spank bank.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: earlbrown on August 13 2019, 09:56:30 PM



Earl, they make these for ford taurus's

I'm going to put a parking brake on the diff yoke.  Locking the back tires up, is a great way to slide sideways into a spot.

    then again, I can't think of the last time I've had to parallel park in real life.
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Forzfed on August 15 2019, 11:29:56 AM
I'm sure you can back up a boat better than Peter! :icon_lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_0vkGURoMw
Title: Re: Anybody ever ran reverse ackerman on the street?
Post by: Steve Wood on August 15 2019, 11:53:04 AM
just do a NASCAR pit entry....I have not had to parallel park in 40 years or so