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Messages - motorhead
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47
« on: July 22 2018, 11:03:33 AM »
Hey! I am not dead, sore, but not dead. Admittedly what follows next is based upon my fixation on a single concept. THE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!
https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-Intercoolers
Please let me know what you guys think!!
That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station.
Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it. So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it? Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively. An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds. The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/
Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance. Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time.
The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it. IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance. Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice.
Accept practices. Ah yes, those. Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time. I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core. But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything.
Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.
I felt like I addressed the need to have adequate flow to the radiator in the article. Maybe not in incredible depth, but I felt like I at least made it known that you need to make sure that the airflow to the radiator is still cold enough to help remove heat from it, and have enough volume of airflow to make a difference.
Boxing in the intercooler would definitely help, but not at the expense of causing a reduction in flow to the radiator.
But, why not emphasize optimizing a part that is so immensely dependent upon air flow? It seems counter intuitive to me (at least in retrospect) to overlook a relative simple solution. As for reduction in flow to the radiator and condenser well that points to the massive number of compromises we have to make between our wannabe race car desires and street car needs. There is likely a more appropriate core design for a street car than a race car that allows more flow across the core, into the radiator/condenser, allows each to exchange the required heat, and meet performance objectives. Most new car have their radiator and condenser sealed around their perimeter to improve efficiency. And then you have cars that come with all three heat exchangers (lots of neat information in the first 3 pages or so) and manage air flow correctly: https://www.focusrs.org/forum/16-focus-rs-performance/15473-what-s-cooler-than-bein-cool-mishimoto-s-ford-focus-rs-intercooler-r-d.htmlEven with the larger FMIC you can see they have integrated air flow management with bolt-on diverter plates (about the 7 min mark). https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=JZP1zWTM0nEThe reason I did not discuss boxing in the fmic in the article is because a vertical flow core, which I felt like I alluded to being the superior core, would have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille of the car, even with 3" end tanks on top, removing 3" of space from the grille area that could have been core area if it was a horizontal flow core.
A vertical flow core should still have at least 60-75% of the core directly behind the grille, if my memory serves me correct for the height at which the fmic's are mounted.
With about 3/4's of the core being exposed in the grille, I felt that the topic of boxing in the core wasn't really pertinent..... plus my article isn't really about maximizing an existing intercooler installation, but rather the various aspects of an intercooler, the technology used in an intercooler, and what to look for in an intercooler.
Vertical flow cores, unless the top end tank is huge and drops the core down low, should have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille area because of how small the actual core area is.
So what you are saying is that you are perfectly okay with having a 12" cock and only being able to insert 8" of it because the other 4" is flaccid? Again this seems counter-intuitive. Personally I rather to have 6 inches that work properly for the application; hell even four rock hard inches would make my wife happy. Yes, I am trying to be funny here... I went back to the write up to see if there was a proposed sketch of a vertical flow IC, there wasn't, so the following is a bit of an assumption. If I understand your objective correctly you want to feed hot air in the bottom and cold air discharged out the top. This means that the critical part of the core is going to be tucked behind the bumper where the most heat transfer should occur based upon your described orientation (or just they way most think). It would seem appropriate to either invert that in/out relationship to get the most cooling done from the top tank flowing down, or size appropriately and seal the core in the direct airflow path. Some will remember a time when this was an acceptable option: http://www.geocities.ws/motorcity/lane/6272/tech_info/ford_ic/index.htm Which by its sheer mass saturated the core with air flow; and it worked. It was unnecessarily large and backyard engineering at its finest but nearly 20 years ago you worked with what you have. It met the requirement and was cost effective; but far from optimized - especially for a street car. Personally I can't visualize how you would mount a guide for air to the bottom portion of the core (that could support 1,000hp+) that is secured enough to withstand the forces of airflow at high mph. Then why have a core that large to begin with? 100% of the core should have access to 100% necessary air flow. I'm not sure how something like that would look and where it would mount that could take 140mph passes. That is the race car vs. street car paradox, isn't it? Especially considering very few people will ever run near 140mph. But, I would point you to the MCSS air box I posted above (part #7) as it seals and distributes air cross the whole core support. They reproduce it in fiberglass. As for data....we'll be using my Bell core design on my engine when we run it on Duttweiler's engine dyno, seeking for 1,500hp (I'd really like to hit 1,600 if I'm honest). I'll sure to log the MAP pressure in and out of the core. That is great for meeting the needs of a 1500+ horsepower engine in a race car. But what about meeting the requirements of the average Joe's sub-500hp street car? Do they need such a part, or just want it? Once my engine is in the car, we'll be making the mounts and piping for the smaller Bell core, so that we can finally advertise these cores for sale. Before we do sell them, we already have people waiting for us to finish the mounts and piping so that they can test these cores (We have two Treadstone cores we are developing as well) and log the pressure drop across the core, and the thermal efficiency as well. I love race car parts as much as the next guy - but if an optimized eBay intercooler works well enough why go to the added expense of a full race part? I stand by my recommendation of testing these back to back and seeing the design limitations of each. Regardless, I look forward to the results.
48
« on: July 21 2018, 12:00:37 PM »
Definitely not suggesting the witch-hunt or excuses were expected from you - just those vendors who use products with the less than ideal characteristic s you've highlighted. I honestly appreciate your efforts.
I am in the middle of sweating my bag off shoveling rocks and dirt under my deck right now so I will revisit this later - if I am not in the ER recovering from heat stroke.
49
« on: July 21 2018, 10:23:25 AM »
THE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!
https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-Intercoolers
Please let me know what you guys think!!
That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station. Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it. So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it? Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively. An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds. The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance. Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time. The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it. IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance. Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice. Accept practices. Ah yes, those. Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time. I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core. But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything. Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.
51
« on: July 19 2018, 11:09:35 AM »
They are going to drive costs way down. That cam is almost identical to the one I have sitting on the shelf for my Turdbo 4.8L.
52
« on: July 19 2018, 09:32:08 AM »
Farmers are buying illegal copies of repair manuals and interface software from overseas - the problem is getting parts from the OEM. It isn't like RockAuto carries Dorman parts for a John Deere tractor.
And then there is how long those parts are available for before the whole thing is rendered obsolete.
53
« on: July 19 2018, 07:48:52 AM »
In my limited experience sealing and airflow across the core makes the biggest difference.
54
« on: July 18 2018, 02:03:19 PM »
I always found it strange that FAST advertises auto tune in their ads, as do other companies, yet it does not seem to be available on the ones sold to Buick owners.
If Eric/Bob can sell you chips that you can plug in and run extremely well with, without changing a single parameter, then you should be able to load the exact same information into an ecu and have it run well from the get go.
If Holley can sell you a system that you dial in your specifics before you crank the car and then drive off while it self-learns, then surely, FAST could do the same thing...EXCEPT, tuners would have a greatly reduced business. And, once the mystique has been removed from the process, tuners will have no one to blame, except themselves, when they cause an engine to blow by tweaking it too far on the dyno and it will not be able to hold up under real world conditions. Very few of these guys ever admit to being at fault.
I've been preaching open-source tuning for years - it is good to educate the masses. And yes, pro tunas are never responsible; leaving 5-15% on the table is fine at today's power-levels. Some of the shitty LS tuners out there should be drawn and quartered for the deception, misrepresentat ion, and theft they do.
55
« on: July 14 2018, 08:39:06 AM »
How exactly PnP is PnP here?
Remove stock ECM. Plug in harness to GN ECU. install wideband in downpipe. Run wire to wideband from ECU. Run vacuum line from manifold to ECU. Start engine
That is pretty PnP - did it come with a start-up tune from the seller? That is one of MS biggest issues is novices building tunes - especially VE tables.
As for KR, I'd imagine you could still keep the factory ECM connected and listening to at least display knock events. It is a weird little system converting a crystal resonance frequency to a digital signal to a timing retard rate.
I forgot to mention that you have to calibrate the TPS before starting the engine but that's a peice of cake. Couple of mouse clicks and done, then start the engine.
Eric emailed a few weeks back asking if anything had changed on my combo since I last purchased the sd2 from him. I replied with the only change was going to a non lock up converter. He sends a thumb drive with his tune for your combo. Start up video is from Eric's tune. I haven't changed anything yet. I am really impressed with his tables he built. I'm going to really nail down the idle first. I'm really liking being able to smooth the tables on the 3D graph. Can't do that with fast
There - that's the difference which justifies the added expense. The support offered is the game changer here, assuming Eric can keep up with the demand. Demand being the issue for some highly entitled novices who feel PnP includes Eric flying to their homes to set it up/troubleshoot/tune it for the money they spent. We saw this on a lesser scale with MAFT Pro - cutting edge tech, price, and complexity at the time - I think Bob let it die because the learning curve was too steep for the Cool Guys who got overwhelmed/disappointed. I have no doubt you got a grip on this, so buyer's remorse is unlikely in this instance. $3K for an PnP OS/hardware, datalogging, and direct tech support is a very fair deal.
56
« on: July 13 2018, 09:31:35 PM »
How exactly PnP is PnP here?
Remove stock ECM. Plug in harness to GN ECU. install wideband in downpipe. Run wire to wideband from ECU. Run vacuum line from manifold to ECU. Start engine
That is pretty PnP - did it come with a start-up tune from the seller? That is one of MS biggest issues is novices building tunes - especially VE tables. As for KR, I'd imagine you could still keep the factory ECM connected and listening to at least display knock events. It is a weird little system converting a crystal resonance frequency to a digital signal to a timing retard rate.
57
« on: July 13 2018, 09:25:09 PM »
I bought my Buick with a pair of used Walbro 242s in it around 2001 and sold it with those same pumps in 2016. Never changed a HG. So... yeah... I guess they don't build 'em like they used to, eh?  11 year old factory pump in the TBSS with a Boost-A-Pump slapped on it; still going at 219,000kms. Damn thing only has the original in-tank filter protecting it too. Wagon has a year on the Walbro 255 in it now... a 450 goes in when the supercharger goes on.
58
« on: July 11 2018, 01:08:44 PM »
How exactly PnP is PnP here?
59
« on: July 11 2018, 12:29:46 PM »
Totally unrelated - but I finally figured out the math in HPtuners to adjust for EQ Error during Power Enrichment. Just have to tweak it to filter by RPM. I love my WB02s in Lambda - the output is so simple. Simple MAF tweaks under WOT here we come! Stock ECM = Stock Chip, right? Right?! PS. I flash my own.
60
« on: July 10 2018, 03:25:25 PM »
(I think we found Motorhead Mike's lost_at_birth twin)
Heh... Lots of words to say: Cool guy parts. And Brad, your signature has been deemed to be too long. So many stock parts listed... 
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