IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Pyro6 on August 06 2011, 04:38:16 PM
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Just got back from Maple Grove. A weekend cut short by a blown head gasket. This is the 2nd time I blew the compression ring at #6. It sounds like a spark plug blew out of it's bore. I use the OEM GM gaskets. I think I'm gonna try the Cometics this time. I was also wondering about switching to roller cam setup while it's apart. I'm gonna look at the lifter and cam wear real close. The damn thing was running so good. I practiced Friday night Grudge racing. I ran an 11.56 @ 116mph, right where I wanna be. I think I'm going to try to drink thru this one.
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as said before, read all the magic tricks to make the cometics not leak water...then be sure the block and the heads are ground, not milled, to a 50 or better ra finish
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I can do the heads but not the block. I thought it was wierd that this is the 2nd time we blew out the gasket where it leaked external compression. Was thinking all the struggling we did last year started the whole process. Was wondering how many other people leaked external compression instead of on the coolant side? The last time I got GM gaskets I was told they're all gone. I have one left. Fel-Pro?????
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Well you could always go with the steel shims from Jason. RJC seem to have a good replacement.
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Just got back from Maple Grove. A weekend cut short by a blown head gasket. This is the 2nd time I blew the compression ring at #6. It sounds like a spark plug blew out of it's bore. I use the OEM GM gaskets. I think I'm gonna try the Cometics this time. I was also wondering about switching to roller cam setup while it's apart. I'm gonna look at the lifter and cam wear real close. The damn thing was running so good. I practiced Friday night Grudge racing. I ran an 11.56 @ 116mph, right where I wanna be. I think I'm going to try to drink thru this one.
I think the key for the cometics is the surface prep - have you had the heads decked?
I have been researching head gaskets - I think the Victor Reinz are the same as the GM. (Did you tell me that, Steve?) Seems a good amount of people have issues with the FelPro 9441T.
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Yeah...altho I have always used a single shim...if I were going composite, I would use Victors
Several have reported problems with the FP's in the last couple of years...
No matter what, both block and heads must be flat.
An eleven second car should not pop gaskets...of course, one bad injector, or one bad spot on head or block changes everything
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I find it curious it's always #6?
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reason I mentioned an injector or a bad spot
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What is a "Bad spot"?
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High, low, eroded by exhaust flame, rough, bolt hole threads pulled up....like a bad spot, you know? :D
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High, low, eroded by exhaust flame, rough, bolt hole threads pulled up....like a bad spot, you know? :D
Well, I do now!
:D
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Just bout ready to pull the intake. The heads were new Champions when I assembled the engine, the block was prepped at a reputable machine shop. I was also wondering about proper head torque procedures. Once you use anything but factory gaskets, would the torque procedure be different? So I'm thinking: get away from composite gaskets. While I have it apart, my headers are about beat. Any recommendation s?
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Norbs has gone low 10's with stock ported headers...not sure how fast you wanna go. Nothin' wrong with the stockers...jus t gotta find someone who really knows how to weld. I take all our customers to Norbs for welding...he can weld with da' best of 'em...and we've never had one crack from him yet. Make sure you bolt 'em to an old head or a thick piece of steel before welding...ot they'll turn into a pretzel.
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I've only used stock and 9441PT head gaskets...so I can't help you about Cometics or RJC's.
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Norbs has gone low 10's with stock ported headers...not sure how fast you wanna go. Nothin' wrong with the stockers...jus t gotta find someone who really knows how to weld. I take all our customers to Norbs for welding...he can weld with da' best of 'em...and we've never had one crack from him yet. Make sure you bolt 'em to an old head or a thick piece of steel before welding...ot they'll turn into a pretzel.
Is Norb's your girlfriend or something?
I attempted to PM you but you have it blocked so I asked the question here.
AJ___
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PM is working...as far as I know...and...y ou've got issues.
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Try the RJC. I have used a few sets of Victors & they are good gaskets but the RJC will take a bit more punishment & with all the goop on them they seal up pretty good. Get 2 heat guns & while on the stand you can heat cycle the heads one at a time for the retorque per instal instructions.
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Try the RJC. I have used a few sets of Victors & they are good gaskets but the RJC will take a bit more punishment & with all the goop on them they seal up pretty good. Get 2 heat guns & while on the stand you can heat cycle the heads one at a time for the retorque per instal instructions.
How do you heat cycle the heads with a heat gun? Unless it has a BTU rating on par with Godzilla
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Our plan is to finish the season with the new gaskets and retorque them over the winter. I think the Canadian heat lights are more powerful than U.S., that' how he gets it done.
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Canadian Heat Gun
(http://www.heater-store.com/blog/uploaded_images/dayton-heaters-3ve56-715853.jpg)
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(http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/godzilla-breath-godzilla-8744426-701-326.jpg)
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Zackly, that's what I mean. Dave, yours needs plugged in.
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I think Ed's runs on beans and burritos.
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Ed - I remember reading that one uses 2 heat guns, one per coolant passage in the front of the block. How many hours do you have to have them running?
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Just got back from machine shop. Was thinking just resurface headers but too many cracks at existing welds, I just as soon replace them. I am totally lost on whose headers to use. I'm thinking stainless steel, but best flow and sealing is my main concern. Steve, we decided to use Cometics. I talked to Cometics Rep at Chryslers at Carlisle and like what he had to say, but I am also worried about your coolant leak concerns. What made up my was the fact that both steel shim and Cometics should have the same surface prep.
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Just got back from machine shop. Was thinking just resurface headers but too many cracks at existing welds, I just as soon replace them. I am totally lost on whose headers to use. I'm thinking stainless steel, but best flow and sealing is my main concern. Steve, we decided to use Cometics. I talked to Cometics Rep at Chryslers at Carlisle and like what he had to say, but I am also worried about your coolant leak concerns. What made up my was the fact that both steel shim and Cometics should have the same surface prep.
No reason to use anything but stock for headers. Some have had good luck with the Chinese eBay headers.
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they are great hgs if they work.
Shims, we glue them on...no leaks
Cometics are made to use without glue...but, I see people using copper coat, opening the layers and spraying stuff in between, etc...let us know how they work
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I'll let you know Steve. It's a tough decision and any of the suggested gaskets could go either way. I'm already missing a race this weekend, I would prefer to keep the wrenching part for the winter.
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No reason to use anything but stock for headers. Some have had good luck with the Chinese eBay headers.
[/quote] But don't you think I could gain a little more HP with other headers??? (mot Chinese) I was looking at Kirban's and Cotton's.
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No reason to use anything but stock for headers. Some have had good luck with the Chinese eBay headers.
But don't you think I could gain a little more HP with other headers???
[/quote]
I am FAR from an expert - but after all these years reading TR threads - I have heard that there's very little gain, if any, by using aftermarket headers. Unless you want to try for 9 second quarter miles.
I seem to remember that stockers are good to low 10's?
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You MIGHT find a gain once you are in low tens...maybe
TAPerformance sells some nice headers
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Thanks Mark and Steve for filling in the blanks. Going with the TA headers thru Kirban's.
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Are these that bad?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/86-87-REGAL-GNX-GRAND-NATIONAL-V6-T-TYPE-EXHAUST-HEADER-/170646194242?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Submodel%3AGrand+National&hash=item27bb4e4842 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/86-87-REGAL-GNX-GRAND-NATIONAL-V6-T-TYPE-EXHAUST-HEADER-/170646194242?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Submodel%3AGrand+National&hash=item27bb4e4842)
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The hotmail address exudes confidence
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Hehe.
Are these the "Chinese" headers I have heard people buying? There's a few sellers that have them.
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those are often terrible in fit...if they fit, plus they are thin and poorly made. There are no bargains in headers
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No racing this weekend. ARP sent studs, the wrong ones nonetheless, instead of bolts. The head gaskets won't be here til Friday. The headers won't be here til Tues or Wed. The heads are done at the machine shop, I'll pick em up tomorrow. Ground heads, replaced springs, valve job.... wanna check cam and lifters, chase and clean head bolt holes, clean block surface, and bolt em up over the weekend. One of the "lock myself in the shop and nobody bug me weekends"
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No racing this weekend. ARP sent studs, the wrong ones nonetheless, instead of bolts. The head gaskets won't be here til Friday. The headers won't be here til Tues or Wed. The heads are done at the machine shop, I'll pick em up tomorrow. Ground heads, replaced springs, valve job.... wanna check cam and lifters, chase and clean head bolt holes, clean block surface, and bolt em up over the weekend. One of the "lock myself in the shop and nobody bug me weekends"
What did the valve job/etc cost?
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I'll let you know tomorrow after I pick them up. Etc. cost 700 if you mean headers. Now I get to work 26 hours a day to fund this poor choice of hobbies (place icon here)
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What did the valve job/etc cost?
[/quote] Picked the heads up this AM, still waiting for gaskets and bolts. Head work was 250
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Try the RJC. I have used a few sets of Victors & they are good gaskets but the RJC will take a bit more punishment & with all the goop on them they seal up pretty good. Get 2 heat guns & while on the stand you can heat cycle the heads one at a time for the retorque per instal instructions.
How do you heat cycle the heads with a heat gun? Unless it has a BTU rating on par with Godzilla
Ed, I use 2 guns on one head at a time. I place them in the end areas by water passages & in 20 mins-1/2 an hour on Hi setting it's Very Hot. No way you can even touch it. The guns have to be on something so they dont touch the metal either. It may not be 1600* but it's pretty damn hot! I let it cool overnite & then do it 2 more times on each head.
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as said before, read all the magic tricks to make the cometics not leak water...then be sure the block and the heads are ground, not milled, to a 50 or better ra finish
Since Cometics couldn't seem to get the order to the machine shop, I called Jason at RJC. I feel confident now I'll have stuff for the weekend. After your comments Steve, I wanted to use a shim gasket anyway, but the machine shop already ordered the Cometics. I would have worked with the Cometics but, no parts, no experiment.
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After all the BS, I think I'm on the downside. Maple Grove has a long weekend this weekend to end the season, that'll be my test n tune for Cecil and the Buick race. Close to firing it up, I'm running outa steam though so I'm in slow motion. I'll crank up the NASCAR race on the radio and just keep on going, but just real slow. RJC head gaskets, TA performance headers, ARP bolts (wished I would've went w/studs). I gotta say it is one sloppy mess working with these head gaskets and sealant. Hopefully she'll fire right up and purrr, than I'll do the vacuum brake switchover. Hopefully Monday I'll finish up and move on.
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You will be energized once you hear it running!
What did you apply the GE sealer with?
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The roller Jason sends with the gaskets. I hope somethin soon energizes me, I'm gettin too old for this crap.
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I appreciated this investment this weekend.
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LOL...too old? I been saying that for 30 years!
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Things didn't go so well today. Started it up, had an exhaust leak at the turbo/header connection. Didn't want to get it too hot, shut it down and got a couple extra 1/8 turns on the nuts. Started it up. still leaking, shut it down. Few more 1/8 turns, went to start it up, crank crank crank, no tach signal on the dash. On the third day of sacrificing time on this car, my attitude immediately went south. Slogging ahead, 140 psi compression @ 1 & 2, gettin spark, no injector pulse w/noid light @ #3, (GN language for you're screwed). Hooked my scanner, no codes, no RPM signal. Plugged in my cam tool, got the blink. Scratched the purple/white wire at the module (disconnected KOEO), no injector pulse. Plugged in my spare ECM, no change except now I don't have fuel pressure. Explosives to this car is looking real inviting.
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I think she's gonna find a new home.
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I think she's gonna find a new home.
Time to have some beers & forget about the car for today. Tomorrow you will probably find the problem in the first 30 mins.
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Me, I would have looked to see if I had pinched the injector harness by the egr....then checked the fp fuse, all of this after drinking a DP, working the cross word and calming my mind...David is right
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Thanks Dave and Steve. I'm cleaning up tools and just thinking about it. I fix cars all day all week and I think I'm pretty good at it. This time I had to struggle just to get to the garage and do what I knew had to be done. All seemed to have gone well, the car started and ran and sounded normal minus the exhaust leak. I wasted 3 days when I could've done family stuff. I don't know.
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I don't see how you wasted three days....stop whining :D and fix the damn problem. No injector pulse and no fuel pressure is a pretty good clue as they have one thing in common
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Thanks for the punch in the head Steve (insert smiley here someday). The FP fuse was blown. I put another in and it blew out too. Pulled the coil pack/module (no EGR) to make sure the injector harness didn't get pinched. Disconnnected the injector harness, another fuse gone. I don't think so much as whining but pissed off and severely frustrated as I hear another tow truck come in for the 7th car not on schedule. I know now my chances for Maple Grove and Cecil are dwindling on a 4 day week. I need to be ready Friday at 3. I'm missing something else. The damn thing ran w/42 psi. I really appreciate the help. Dave is right, I probably should sleep on it but I know the friggin problem is right there. Disconnected the FP hotwire, still shorted.
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I would have guess you pinched something, but...somethin g shorted...glad it is not the injector harness because that can blow a driver in the ecm.
Look at the diagram http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fuel_pump.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fuel_pump.htm)
I would have a quick look around the the fuel pump test connector to make sure nothing there is touching..then go to the fuel pump relay and pop the connector off. See if that makes the fuse blowing go away.
When I am intelligently looking for a short, I insert a lite bulb across the fuse terminals which promptly lights up under a shorted conditon. On long enuf wires, I can see it from under the hood. Then I mess around with the harness til I find the shorted spot and the light goes out...
Now, in reality, I seldom think about such until I am finished and kicked back in my chair, then I think, Dumb ASS, you just changed ten fuses with no reason because you cannot remember to get your tail light bulb out that you soldered the long wires and spade terminals on...then I think...oh hell, you probably could not have found it anyway
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You can also put a breaker in it instead of a fuse Gary. It will go on and off so you have some time to see if you can find the short. Granted, you have to be carefull diong it but on PITA shorts it usually helps to find them.
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or, just be boring and unplug the connectors and see what leg is shorted with your meter..but, that takes all the fun out of it.....
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I am surprised that Firebird has not been over to tell you that the second most common place to pop that fuse is the wiring feed that goes to the oil pressure sender on the front sender and that you probably moved it while trying to stop the leak under the turbo. When you get old, if it ain't number one, it is usually number two! :D
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One of the 1st things I checked was the sensor and wire, I thought maybe the sensor shorted. Just found what I think is the problem, connector at the fuel pump relay. If it ain't the problem is sure is gonna be one. Where do I get a connector and relay?? Caspers?
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Fresh set of eyes today saw that right away just like someone here mentioned yesterday! ;)
Caspers will have what you need if that is the culprit?
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Aren't those fairly standard items of the era?
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One of the 1st things I checked was the sensor and wire, I thought maybe the sensor shorted. Just found what I think is the problem, connector at the fuel pump relay. If it ain't the problem is sure is gonna be one. Where do I get a connector and relay?? Caspers?
I think John has a new harness to replace the odd ball one that GM used....
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Have a relay from NAPA. Are you talking about John at Caspers for the connector? Charlie I used Steve's method, ran jumper wires from the fuse box and laid my test light on the dash. I've used circuit breakers already, but like you said you gotta be careful. It must have been just unfortunated that when I was tightening the back bolt of the turbo connection I must have just moved that harness enough to cause the connector to finally give in.
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http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=5_6_9&products_id=1047 (http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=5_6_9&products_id=1047)
http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=5_6_9&products_id=1095 (http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=5_6_9&products_id=1095)
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Fresh set of eyes today saw that right away just like someone here mentioned yesterday! ;)
Caspers will have what you need if that is the culprit?
I knew you were right, but once my week gets started I have very little time for anything else. I also took your advice on the beer, it was like you gave me permission, I gotta listen to you more often. Thank you!!!
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A nice relaxing cold beer or 3 will make any car issue seem better after being frustrated chasing electrical gremlins all afternoon! :atbeer:
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Have a relay from NAPA. Are you talking about John at Caspers for the connector? Charlie I used Steve's method, ran jumper wires from the fuse box and laid my test light on the dash. I've used circuit breakers already, but like you said you gotta be careful. It must have been just unfortunated that when I was tightening the back bolt of the turbo connection I must have just moved that harness enough to cause the connector to finally give in.
yep, John Spina owns Casper's
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Have a relay from NAPA. Are you talking about John at Caspers for the connector? Charlie I used Steve's method, ran jumper wires from the fuse box and laid my test light on the dash. I've used circuit breakers already, but like you said you gotta be careful. It must have been just unfortunated that when I was tightening the back bolt of the turbo connection I must have just moved that harness enough to cause the connector to finally give in.
yep, John Spina owns Casper's
Have a relay from NAPA. Are you talking about John at Caspers for the connector? Charlie I used Steve's method, ran jumper wires from the fuse box and laid my test light on the dash. I've used circuit breakers already, but like you said you gotta be careful. It must have been just unfortunated that when I was tightening the back bolt of the turbo connection I must have just moved that harness enough to cause the connector to finally give in.
yep, John Spina owns Casper's
Dennis at Casper's fixed me up. Got his relay and connector w/weather pack. It's an oddball connector, as I think someone mentioned, so the NAPA relay won't work.
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GM was real good about making ever connector different...gu ess it was its plan to control us for the next 25 years
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Up and running. Pulled the turbo back off to replace the Remflex gasket I thought I could re-use. Gonnna let her sit till tomorrow, used a dab of Permatex orange on the downpipe side.
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I am not convinced that the Remflex are a good idea on turbo cars altho many swear that they are the ultimate end-all on normal cars. Our cars add both pressure and additional heat to the equation which may not meet the Remflex design parameters. If things appear plane, I would prefer to use a thin smear of rtv to address any perfections and let it go at that. I have never had a problem with the soft copper gaskets, but, I have seen a few composition gaskets burn the coating off and start leaking. The old Riviera gaskets worked well...believe this was what Special Additions sold.
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I am not convinced that the Remflex are a good idea on turbo cars altho many swear that they are the ultimate end-all on normal cars. Our cars add both pressure and additional heat to the equation which may not meet the Remflex design parameters. If things appear plane, I would prefer to use a thin smear of rtv to address any perfections and let it go at that. I have never had a problem with the soft copper gaskets, but, I have seen a few composition gaskets burn the coating off and start leaking. The old Riviera gaskets worked well...believe this was what Special Additions sold.
I think that's what I'm finding out. I'm gonna let the orange sit overnight, and than tomorrow I'm gonna do a burnout, for like an hour.
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You buy an extra set of headgaskets you want to install? :D
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You mean an hour burnout is only gonna eat headgaskets???? That's almost worth it.
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Didn't run last weekend at Cecil, got rained out Fri. and Sat. Move to this weekend, looks like T & T Fri. night and race all weekend at Numidia Dragway. Neat old track in the PA mountains near Knoebels amusement park. Self contain motorhome weekend, kick back and hope to forget the last couple of months. Vacuum brakes seem to work fine, did a burnout behind the shop and sounded good. Wondering when I have to retorque the heads. Maybe wait until I get back from the weekend.
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Cool! Shirley Muldowney- 1975
(http://numidiadragway.com/images/stories/history/Cha_Cha.jpg)
For the disbeliever below: :)
http://numidiadragway.com/images/stories/history/Cha_Cha.jpg (http://numidiadragway.com/images/stories/history/Cha_Cha.jpg)
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At friggin Numidia????
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Just get the biggest kick out of Numidia. Great countryside and scenery. People are super friendly. Had so many people asking about the car. Having a hard time treeing with the new vacuum brake setup. Retorquing the head bolts isn't an issue anymore. We got 4 passes in Friday night, got rained out Saturday. Figured we would head home and torque the bolts Sunday. Acquired some sort of exhuast/header leak on the driver's side last pass Fri. Two 11.77 passes to end the night. Cecil County Saturday for a MAGNA points race.
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Numidia track pics, trying to crunch the pictures. Makes it tough to show the scenery.