IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: gnonyx on May 21 2021, 11:27:10 AM
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Hi Steve,
You and I have been through some converse time in order to solve my high BLM, and during that time I have welded both headers, installed them without gasket just used high temp RTV. Replaced both upper and lower ball joints, replaced front and rear bushings, and all coil springs.
My ScanMaster reading:
02-527-679
AF-04-05
LB-32
BAT-13.4
INT-137
BL-133
NPH-0
CLT-173
ATS-88
R-825
TPS-.42
IAC-25
CC-58-106
NAL-0
OIL PRESS-23-34
VAC-16-17
A/F-15.2-15.4
VAC HOSE OFF-44
VAC HOSE ON-37
I will change the regulator fuel adjustment as per my Commander chip 45
Even though the fuel press maintain it's pressure for over an hour I felt the stumble may come from a dirty fuel injector.
I removed all fuel injectors and found the regulator O-ring not in good shape as you can see in photo.
I also clean up the manifolds injectors holes very dirty as well as you can also see in photo.
In the photo that shows only 2 O-rings, the one on the right is from the fuel regulator and the one on the left is from the other end of the fuel rail.
The other shows the fuel injectors I'm using Siemens DEKA IV ( DEKA 4 ) Mototron 60lb/hour High Impedance Injectors
The other photos shows how dirty the fuel injectors holes are
I already ordered the injectors O-rings, clip and also the regulator O-ring.
I will put all together, and make final fuel adjustment to see and hear engine response.
I will post again once all is final
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I'm not much help with Bob's chip when it comes to adjustment because I have forgotten whatever little I knew about them.
The numbers look okay to me.
The lower o-rings on the injectors can cause a vacuum leak if they are cut or chewed up. The upper ones can cause a fuel leak. The fuel pressure regulator can cause a fuel leak.
If the injectors are dirty, that can cause a problem as well. Only having them flowed and cleaned can resolve that.
Be sure you clean up the throttlebody and get all the varnish out from around the throttleblade and clean the IAC passage well.
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Hi Steve, I for got to add this to the ScanMaster list:
INT-137
BL-133
I'm also going to use the same way this guy on YouTube cleaning method of cleaning the fuel injectors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eDcY0WhALI
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I would spend the money and have them done professionally
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I tried that way of cleaning injectors and they wouldn't spray, had to get them done at a shop....didn't cost much
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Yep...that not only not clean hard deposits from the nozzle of the injector, but, it will not tell you if the injector is spraying the correct amount of fuel each time. Bad idea.
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Hi All, and especially to you Steve, I really do appreciate and respect you guys opinions, and I did inquired injectors service shops for price and found the cheapest is $20.00 per injector.
unfortunate right now we're recovery from home project expense, and I'm saving to get the GN digital dash repair from Caspers to which the cost is around $500+.
I already did my DIY injector cleaning and it did came out better good, and I will see if I can tape a short video of it.
I will take another pictures of the manifold where the injector is inserted showing how clean it came out.
Thanks Again
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Time to do something free. Program some additional fuel at idle...try about 5% more
Put it in open loop idle if it's not already there
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Time to do something free. Program some additional fuel at idle...try about 5% more
Put it in open loop idle if it's not already there
Several years ago you posted a thread of using a propane bottle gas to detect if any vacuum leaks was present.
I used your method especially around the upper and lower injectors O-rings location, and also around the intake manifold, and found no leak and the engine idle didn't change.
I have tried many times to upload a short video of how the DIY cleaning injector with Gumout product and also showing a strong stream coming out of the injectors exit port.
I already ordered both upper and lower injector's O-rings, and clips, but I can't find the Fuel pressure regulator O-ring and also the of the fuel return rail O-ring.
Do you know who has both fuel return rail O-ring and fuel pressure regulator O-rings?
Thanks
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Again, it is important that the injectors be cleaned properly so that they not only spray a proper pattern, but also to insure they all spray the same amount of liquid for a given injector pulse width. When you have them professionally cleaned, each one will come back marked to show how much it sprayed so you can compare them to one another to be sure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
Having said that, I doubt there is anything wrong with yours. I think you need to adjust your fueling as I suggested above by programming the chip.
Here are the various o-ring part numbers
NAPA #730-4912 you get 2 of each one and they are correct.
NAPA #2-18416 for a package of one of each size.
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS SK27 Fuel Rail O-Ring Kit
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS SK26 Fuel Rail O-Ring Kit
borg warner or neihoff search part # 27478 , its a kit of both o-rings for the fuel rail
standard motors brand in a 10 pack.. sk27 feed , sk26 return
Fel Pro ES 70599
For the FPR to rail connection it is a standard GM injector O-ring.
I used to have these saved some place but I googled for the results this time
Oh, I still do. From my site http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/injectorswap.html
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Again, it is important that the injectors be cleaned properly so that they not only spray a proper pattern, but also to insure they all spray the same amount of liquid for a given injector pulse width. When you have them professionally cleaned, each one will come back marked to show how much it sprayed so you can compare them to one another to be sure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
Having said that, I doubt there is anything wrong with yours. I think you need to adjust your fueling as I suggested above by programming the chip.
Here are the various o-ring part numbers
NAPA #730-4912 you get 2 of each one and they are correct.
NAPA #2-18416 for a package of one of each size.
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS SK27 Fuel Rail O-Ring Kit
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS SK26 Fuel Rail O-Ring Kit
borg warner or neihoff search part # 27478 , its a kit of both o-rings for the fuel rail
standard motors brand in a 10 pack.. sk27 feed , sk26 return
Fel Pro ES 70599
For the FPR to rail connection it is a standard GM injector O-ring.
I used to have these saved some place but I googled for the results this time
Oh, I still do. From my site http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/injectorswap.html
Thanks for the info Steve
Yes I know you're right of getting the injectors done professional, I wanted to see if the spray was clogged of uneven spray for me to warrant it to be done professional clean.
In a way I glad I removed the injectors and removing the fuel rail to realize the O-rings needed to be replace, and if I have been driven the car it might have leak and caught on fire.
I have read many times over on your "HOW TO" info, and honestly, the injector swap is one I read once and forgot about, and that includes the O-rings sizes. Thank You for reminding me
Why would the O-rings replacement surjects four O-rings replacement when there are only two location, one on the fuel regulator end and the other at the fuel return rail end.
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probably because they cost a penny a piece and people tend to screw up them by not using grease on them or such
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probably because they cost a penny a piece and people tend to screw up them by not using grease on them or such
TOUCHE' on that one :cheers:
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Steve, a while ago just after the welded headers I replaced the spark plugs to NGK UR4 6630 gap at 30, manufacture claimed to set at 35, yet reading other members claimed to gap at 25.
What is your opinion on this type of spark plugs and about their gap?
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Personally, I think UR4 is getting pretty hot. I would go UR-5, myself.
I see many people are going to very tight gaps. I have never had a problem running 25 psi on 0.035" but I often set them at 0.032". For normal boost, I don't think you will have any problem.
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Personally, I think UR4 is getting pretty hot. I would go UR-5, myself.
I see many people are going to very tight gaps. I have never had a problem running 25 psi on 0.035" but I often set them at 0.032". For normal boost, I don't think you will have any problem.
If you want to read what Earl statement on his Ebay item:
This heat range is correct for stock cars with minor upgrades to modded cars with basic bolt-ons. If you're serious about tuning and getting every last little bit out of car that runs a little hotter than usual, the UR5's might be worth trying.(NGKs heat range is 'backwards'. Higher numerically = colder on a scale of 1-10)
I don't know about these spark plugs other than reading and hearing about them
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163122170495?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
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Hi Steve, If you read what I found, all came true of adding fuel, but then didn't changed as it got worse after finding an air leak between the throttle body and plenum.
I put a very little smear of RTV on the Throttle body gasket, and the next day checked with about 15# input air into the intake manifold and on air leak.
Installed the MAF pipe, started the car and started to read the scanmaster readings, it was great to see the numbers looking good, until the engine got hot showing CLT 173.
The BLM was at 130, and then started to climb to137, so I increase the BLM parameter from default setting of 08 to 10 on the Commander Chip, and still the BLM was increasing.
I then disconnected the MAF system and while the engine was still hot and again input 15# of air into the intake manifold and found a smaller air leak between the throttle body and plenum where the very little smear of RTV on the Throttle body gasket I just replaced.
The worst came true of finding the TB or plenum is slightly wrapped.
I removed both throttle body and plenum, and used a squared piece of flat glass, Emery medium sandpaper, and started to sand down the throttle body and plenum until smooth and levelly flat.
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I don't understand either your problem nor Shimy87's.
I have had all kinds of air leaks and never had one cause a stumble. If it was a carbureted car, I would say it needed more accelerator pump shot. That feature is in Fuel injected cars as well but there is nothing that can be adjusted in most chips.
Shimy87's car is showing low o2's but adding more fuel thru pressure or the Translator has made a difference. Usually if the leak is large, the car will idle faster than is programmed in the chip.
Leaks such as you are chasing are so small they should not really show up in normal operation. You find them by adding a lot more pressure than normal vacuum would be sucking during idle and off idle. I don't think they are problems.
We consider blms to be normal if they are plus/minus 10 from 128. At those levels, the ecm has plenty of room to correct the fueling back to the 128 level.
I am assuming that you all do not have old gas in the tank that does not vaporize well.
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I have been watching this thread as well looking for a new "lead" on what might be causing my issue.
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I don't understand either your problem nor Shimy87's.
I have had all kinds of air leaks and never had one cause a stumble. If it was a carbureted car, I would say it needed more accelerator pump shot. That feature is in Fuel injected cars as well but there is nothing that can be adjusted in most chips.
Shimy87's car is showing low o2's but adding more fuel thru pressure or the Translator has made a difference. Usually if the leak is large, the car will idle faster than is programmed in the chip.
Leaks such as you are chasing are so small they should not really show up in normal operation. You find them by adding a lot more pressure than normal vacuum would be sucking during idle and off idle. I don't think they are problems.
We consider blms to be normal if they are plus/minus 10 from 128. At those levels, the ecm has plenty of room to correct the fueling back to the 128 level.
I am assuming that you all do not have old gas in the tank that does not vaporize well.
Be sure you clean up the throttlebody and get all the varnish out from around the throttleblade and clean the IAC passage well.
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Hi Steve,
As you mention before on Reply #1: Be sure you clean up the throttlebody and get all the varnish out from around the throttleblade and clean the IAC passage well.
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I see where I forgot to add the part when I removed the throttle body and before sanding I removed the newly IAC unit, and saw inside the how dirty it was. Even if you spray constantly you would never remove the built up inside the IAC and it's passage way. The only way to really clean this is to remove the throttle body, heavy spraying of carb. cleaner and I also used Q-tips for the passage way, and on the IAC seat.
I see where I forgot to add the part when I removed the throttle body and before sanding I removed the newly IAC unit, and saw inside the how dirty it was. Even if you spray constantly you would never remove the built up inside the IAC and it's passage way. The only way to really clean this is to remove the throttle body, heavy spraying of carb. cleaner and I also used Q-tips for the passage way, and on the IAC seat.
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you may try swapping mafs if you have not
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you may try swapping mafs if you have not
You're in the wrong business Steve, you should be in the physic world
I'm waiting for an 3" LT1 MAF to arrive
Right now I have a new Delphi AF10056 - 3-1/2" which is a newer model of the old style LS1 3.5"
Once I finish with the flat sanding of both throttle body and plenum, assemble the existing MAF, recheck for any air leak. Start the engine warm it up, and see what are the scanmaster readings. If the numbers are good then I will remove the MAF and put in place the old style but 3.0" LT1 type and see how the scanmaster numbers reads.
I'm wondering if the newer MAF being it's 3.5 requires more fuel since it's drawing in more air, or will the 3.0" LT1 will give me a better scanmaster numbers.
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the translator should take care of that. You just have to change the settings for the 3.5
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the translator should take care of that. You just have to change the settings for the 3.5
Right now I'm using the 3.5" and the translator MAF base is set at 0, and when the 3.0" MAF is being use I will change translator MAF base setting to 3.
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Hi Steve, I know I haven't written nothing since I finally installed the heater hoses, sanded, and flatten down both throttle body and plenum surface flat, installed with new gasket, started the engine and again found the BLM up around 128 then climb to 143. I knew it would happen since I believe one of the plenum bolt was stripped since adding the power plate, I placed the fuel rail bracket hole underneath the bolt instead of placing it on top of the bolt after torqueing down the plenum bolt, which cause the bolt to stripped. I went to check on the suspected bolt and not tried to loosen it but I tired to tighten the blot and found it loose.
Right now I'm waiting for longer bolts M8x1.25x50mm to come in so I can replace all of the plenum bolts.
I didn't tried to swamp the MAF since I have to take care of this air leak first, and then see where I'm at.
I will post again after replacement with scanmaster readings
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You may have to install a helicoil in the stripped hole if a longer bolt does not solve the problem.
Remember that if the battery has been disconnected or the orange memory wire has been disconnected, the chip has to relearn and the the car needs to be driven around for ten or 15 minutes and then the key turned off and the engine restarted before the blm readings are really meaningful.
Reread this article https://www.gnttype.org/techarea/faq/BLMINT.html and then this one https://vortexbuicks-etc.com/blms.htm
Note how small the rpms bands for each cell are and understand a blm reading for idle may be a bit off, but the next cells may be much closer and that should not be a reason to obsess over not being exactly 128.
Be sure your maf reading at idle is correct. Normally, with the key on and engine off, the maf will read 3. With the engine running at warmed up idle, the range is normally 4-6. Sometimes, with a Translator, it might be one number off.
When using a Translator, I prefer to leave the box set to the defaults and use the chip and fuel pressure to make any adjustments.
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With the stripped bolts in the doghouse, use some, not a ton, of black silicone on each layer, the intake, the powerplate ( both sides) and the doghouse. let it cure before starting and you will eliminate any potential leaks. Makes removal harder but if you do it right you should never have a reason to remove it again. Even if you take out a headgasket in the future you dont need to remove it to remove the intake.
That bolt on my car was stripped also, used the silicone and put a slightly longer bolt there and its all good.
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I misunderstood what was stripped. I helicoiled a couple of stripped ones in mine. The best solution is to use studs rather than bolts.......im o anyway :D
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Steve's solution is the right/best solution with studs.....I cut corners🤣🤣🤣
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I did not say I used studs....but I should have LOL
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Correction,
When the longer threaded studs of M8x1.25x50mm comes in I will replace all of the plenum bolts to threaded studs with nuts and torque them them down to 30 ft-lbs
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Wait! I thought you were talking about the intake! I don't know what the plenum torque is. Look it up!
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http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/torque.html
Plenum fasteners not listed.
Throttle body to intake listed as 20 Ft.Lbs.
Water pump to timing cover listed as 115 INCH Lbs.
I'm guessing somewhere in that range might be good.
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I don't know what the factory specs are. Given the size of the bolt/stud and the fact that at least one hole is going to be short on threads, I would probably stay under 144 inch pounds and I would use some locktite on the damaged set of threads to try to keep the stud from pulling out.
I always just snug them by feel using a 1/4" drive ratchet.... the gasket is not going to compress measurably and all you want is a nice clamp between the doghouse and the intake.... either it is flat, or it is not.
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Thats why I like silicone 🤣🤣
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Yep! Silicone solves a lot of problems as long as the coat is paper thin. Use it thin and let it sit for 20-30 minutes to skim over before bolting it down. Makes it easier to get off. Silicone is a heckuva glue when put together immediately.
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Hi Steve,
I know I haven't been on board, but the normal summer stuffs, cut glass edging, chopping trees, branches, and a hole lots of other crap landscaping brings.
Anyway, I tapped the plenum and used the arrival threaded studs of M8x1.25x50mm; used no RTV torque everything down, and did a smoke test, to which all was good, no vacuum leak.
I also did an exhaust smoke leak test, and also no leak except some smoke coming out of the turbo linkage where the wastegate rod connects to. Is this okay to have some smoke leak or is this part of the pre turbo exhaust leaks?
I'm also going to remove the fuel injectors and have them professionally clean and tested
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I believe that is above the O2 sensor so it should be fine.
You are a busy man. You do almost as much as I think about doing LOL
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Hi Steve,
I didn't want to intervene the other thread so I will continue on mine.
1st, Thanks for the info on the valve spring replacement comment:
When your car does not want to rev up to the rpm it used to...
In other words, if it used to run up to 4800 rpm and shift out of second into third, but, now it gets to 4400 rpm and does not want to increase...it's time.
Most of the cars when new, had a spring life of about 40-50,000 miles if you were lucky.
I guess I will found out if I need to do the replacement once I put the car on the road, and finally drive it around now that I found the culprit of the engine having a slight miss.
The photo shows the control module epoxy had a major crack, and once the engine runs hot is when the miss started to happen.
I also replaced the new Delphi AF10056 - 3-1/2" MAF ( scanmaster #'s all over the place) to an old style AC 3" MAF type
MAF Translator setting:
MODE SW: ON, ON, ON, OFF
MAF BASE: 3
Here are the final scanmaster #'s
02- 519-675
AF - 05-06
LB - 38
BAT - 13.4
INT - 128-129
BL - 117-120
NPH - 0
CLT - 173
ATS - 112
R - 825-850
TPS - .42
IAC - 34-36
CC - 148-249
NAL - 0
OIL PRESS - 23
VAC - 16.5
A/F - 15.1-15.6
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Personally, I think UR4 is getting pretty hot. I would go UR-5, myself.
I see many people are going to very tight gaps. I have never had a problem running 25 psi on 0.035" but I often set them at 0.032". For normal boost, I don't think you will have any problem.
If you want to read what Earl statement on his Ebay item:
This heat range is correct for stock cars with minor upgrades to modded cars with basic bolt-ons. If you're serious about tuning and getting every last little bit out of car that runs a little hotter than usual, the UR5's might be worth trying.(NGKs heat range is 'backwards'. Higher numerically = colder on a scale of 1-10)
I don't know about these spark plugs other than reading and hearing about them
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163122170495?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Hi Steve,
You were right about the NGK UR4 are hotter, I kept thinking about these spark plugs and found this NGK chart from Summit, and the NGK UR4 are hotter as the NGK UR5 are a bit cooler.
As I mention before I don't know much between a hotter or cooler plugs and how critical would it make a difference for our engine.
I finally got the right 3"GM MAF and the scanmaster readings on my last post above this post and can you please tell your opinion of it.
Thanks
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The O2s are slightly leaner than I would have guessed. I would drive the car and if it feels good, I would stop worrying about stuff and enjoy it. It looks fine to me
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The O2s are slightly leaner than I would have guessed. I would drive the car and if it feels good, I would stop worrying about stuff and enjoy it. It looks fine to me
Thanks for the fast reply Steve, and enjoy the weekend