Author Topic: MAF sensor  (Read 32875 times)

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Offline good2win22

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #30 on: May 28 2016, 09:32:58 PM »
Most folks are drilling a hole in the couplers and installing the IAT sensor just before the MAF.


I cut the hoses with a utility knife if needed. Otherwise I run the extra length up the tube.


I don't know what else to tell ya about the MAF. High blm at idle is a sign of a vacuum leak on the intake side. What is the IAC showing at idle as well as the TPS?
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #31 on: May 28 2016, 11:13:11 PM »
I was gonna go mafless...then I remembered Mike pulling his hair out over MAFTPRO and finally giving up...so I said piss on it. :)


I'm prolly never gonna exceed 12,000 RWHP like in the video...so that's another reason I don't need it. :)

From Bison today
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Had Juan's GN on the dyno yesterday. Some decent numbers with an old 5.7 chip. Fuel was 110 octane. Ported iron heads, 6265, Precision slic, and small hyd roller. I did a back to back with and without the factory MAF sensor. The only thing I did before the MAF delete was add as much fuel as I could to the chip. I wasn't logging the hits so I'm not sure where the injectors maxed out but I'm estimating around 5200rpm. Peak boost was around 30psi in all hits. The difference with the restriction removed is quite remarkable. We were seeing boost fall off and a very momentary spike of peak power on ramp in with the stock MAF and falling as rpm climbed. Just removal netted us 34whp peak and almost 80whp in other areas. This is typically of a gain when converting to a speed density setup. Of course we are limited by a chip here. With an XFI or SD 2 or similar we could have easily picked up another 20-30whp and cleaned up the ramp in a lot. It's not always about peak. Looking at the entire curve is very important. You can see that once I got it over the MAF transition to chip fuel it absolutely took off. Very noticeable even before the numbers came up on the screen. This car is a prime example of why a good speed density setup is so beneficial.
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Offline Scoobum

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #32 on: May 28 2016, 11:37:42 PM »
I've seen Bison post before about removing restriction nets RWHP. I'd be curious to know what the RWHP was. I have an idea what it should be with that build at that boost pressure. Dan Keller came back from Bisons with Champion heads and a roller cam setup. I walked all over him with 7 lbs less boost. Let's see if he can beat me with the XFI he purchased. MAF against MAFLESS. Place your bets...
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Offline TexasT

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #33 on: May 28 2016, 11:42:40 PM »
He said it himself, it isn't about peak, it is about the curve. If I can use a 3" lt1 maf and make a nice curve and decent power it is a good thing. 30-40 hp isn't going to make or break me at the peak. A nice fat torque band through the whole rpm curve is what I need. It is a street car. And a daily driver at that. I don't understand why anyone drives a Prius or smart car. Cant be fun. Maybe for them but I don't think It would work for me.

Sadly, the axis is out of stock and full throttle is running a $10 off on the regular translator. I think this is a sign to just take the 5% off and go that route. I will just have to deal with reprograming when the battery is disconnected like the rest do. I did see the plugs are different. I guess the translator takes care of that.
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Offline TexasT

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #34 on: May 28 2016, 11:49:13 PM »
I've seen Bison post before about removing restriction nets RWHP. I'd be curious to know what the RWHP was. I have an idea what it should be with that build at that boost pressure. Dan Keller came back from Bisons with Champion heads and a roller cam setup. I walked all over him with 7 lbs less boost. Let's see if he can beat me with the XFI he purchased. MAF against MAFLESS. Place your bets...

Selling stuff is a good way to make money. But as you proved, running it down the track is way different than running it on some rollers.
Rich

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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #35 on: May 29 2016, 12:09:49 AM »
I would not be surprised at seeing 30 hp with that turbo and that level of boost.

I wonder if he had an inlet pipe on the turbo or if the air was going straight into the bell.
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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #36 on: May 29 2016, 12:36:53 AM »
Bison has posted that the 6265 will put out another 30 HP all in vs the 6262. He cracked the 9's with the 6265...so I have a pretty good idea of the RWHP to break into the 9's...depending on the weight of the car Whats great about Bison...is he posts back to back tests. I remember years ago him and Otto would test turbos back to back after hours. The results...were interesting. Guys were making claims of outrageous HP at low boost in the teens. Testing proved otherwise.
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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #37 on: May 29 2016, 08:05:30 AM »
Grumpy and I'm sure a few others that Steve could name have cracked the 9's with a MAF. The masses will always flock to a MAF setup...cuz it's easy...and it works. And try as you might...you can't beat a stock ECM. There's gazzilons of miles of testing that goes into them...compare d to very little feedback with an aftermarket unit. SD will give you a HP increase...but leep in mind that's 'all in'. How many people max a turbo out? The answer...very few.


I have TR owners contact me all the time...and tell me they wanna run XFI, SD, FAST or DFI. My advice to them is this. Make sure you fully understand whatever setup you're gonna use...and that you can tune it yourself. There's a couple of locals who pushed aftermarlet fuel management systems on a few guys...and the results have been less than spectacular... cuz they can't tune it...or have the wrong combination. It's tough to watch these guys struggle...whe n they don't have too. Personally, I never tell anyone that they need something...wh en they don't. If they don't understand a certain setup...then I tell them to stick to something they do.
Hard work pays off, dreams come true. Bad times don't last, but BAD GUYS do!

RIP Scott Hall AKA Razor Ramon

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #38 on: May 29 2016, 09:29:54 AM »
I hear the term "ALL IN" when it comes to turbo's here.
What does that mean and why would you want to do this.
FWIW 9in filter ,3in maf, 3in pipe 4in turbo inlet  66mil turbo 94mph in the 8th and 122 in the 1/4 at 19 lbs of boost. Driven 200 miles to a track.
I can't imagine ALL IN.

Offline Scoobum

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #39 on: May 29 2016, 10:00:32 AM »
Ron, 'all in' simply means maxing the turbo out in terms of boost. That 66 you had on your car prolly wouldn't run out of steam till 28-29 PSI. You'd have to have enuf high gear fuel in the chip to cover that high of boost. You have to tell Eric when you order your chip as to what your max boost is gonna be. He writes it on the back of the chip. I'll told him 28 plus for me.
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Offline daveismissing

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #40 on: May 29 2016, 10:16:56 AM »
I did see the plugs are different. I guess the translator takes care of that.

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #41 on: May 29 2016, 10:33:05 AM »
 It just seems to me most people concentrate on the wrong things. 29 lbs of boost means nothing by itself.
Probably creating a lot of heat and running out of fuel with that much boost. Whats the IDC.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #42 on: May 29 2016, 11:09:29 AM »


I have TR owners contact me all the time...and tell me they wanna run XFI, SD, FAST or DFI. My advice to them is this. Make sure you fully understand whatever setup you're gonna use...and that you can tune it yourself. There's a couple of locals who pushed aftermarlet fuel management systems on a few guys...and the results have been less than spectacular... cuz they can't tune it...or have the wrong combination. It's tough to watch these guys struggle...whe n they don't have too. Personally, I never tell anyone that they need something...wh en they don't. If they don't understand a certain setup...then I tell them to stick to something they do.

Brad...there is a certain amount of magic involved with marketing aftermarket systems.  I recall when a certain well known tuner trumpeted his claim that FAST would knock two or three tenths off a chip right off the bat.  He convinced one of the guys running a ME chip on a mid second nines car that miracles would follow.  Took him a year to consistently out perform the ME after the sale.

There is much more profit in selling an aftermarket system than there is in selling chips and it opens up a market for  Tuners to follow their clients from race to race to tune their cars and collect more money for their services.  We tend to idolize these guys giving them credit for all sorts of abilities far beyond their actual performance in smoothing out the rough spots in a/f curves.

When they go too far and blow up an engine, it never seems to be their fault, but is marked off to "That's Racing"

The foremost marketing point is the slow 8 bit computer GM put into the cars in the 'eighties.  No doubt that it is slow but it has never been a hinderance to Steve, Eric, or Bob as the speed is predictable which makes it possible to anticipate required timing to have the right fuel at the right time.  Nothing happens instantly including injector response/dead time.  As this can be measured, then the programmer can anticipate the time between command and response for a given computer and given injector.

Understanding reality vs marketing takes a lot of squeal out of selling the pig.  In the past 15 years or more, we have seen many examples of 12 second cars running an aftermarket system combined with owners that have no clue as to how to tune it but it makes for good conversation at Sonic or Tim Horton's.

I suspect 95% just get in their cars and drive them and maybe 2% can actually tune them no matter what kind of system is in the car.  I agree completely that most never tune their 5.7 chips based upon my experience that no one that writes me has ever read the instructions that came with the chip.  Further, no matter how many times I explain how the chip works and ask people to read the instructions to reinforce what I have told them, they ask the same question the following week.  Yet, they ask me how much faster they will go with FAST or such.  When they ask me if they should bump the fuel pressure, I am pretty sure they don't read.

Now, back to MAF's.  Bob, and others, have posted flow numbers for various types.  I have never run a Translator and I could not find a new one that I have had in the box since they were introduced years ago.  I was going to give it to Rich but I suspect I threw it away on some get rid of stuff binge in the past couple of years.  Of course, I always suspect that when I cannot find something but it is usually true so....

I started running gutted MAF's back in the -90's when I went to ME chips.  Then, I went SD when Steve introduced that on the ME and followed to Eric with the SD1 chip after Steve gave him his software and Eric revised it to do away with the thumbwheel.

The physics behind removing restriction on the inlet side of the turbo is indisputable.  Anyone that has gone to a four inch inlet can immediately notice the throttle response-particularly if they get rid of the maf.  Increasing the flow on the inlet side allows the turbo to do the same job with less effort.  If one has a big turbo and runs 23 psi there will not be as much obvious gain as there will be if one has the same turbo and runs 30 psi where the turbo has to work to do the job.  Run a 100 yards with your mouth closed and a finger closing one nostril for an example.

That eliminates most of us because we don't normally push our engines like that.  The physics are still true, however.  We go to all kinds of effort on the output side of the turbo-ported heads, bigger valves, bigger intercoolers, big exhaust, etc. to improve performance so it seems a bit odd that we resist doing the same at the beginning point of the process.

The SD1 chip is dead simple to use IF one will read the instructions.  Eric writes instructions that even I can understand so they must be simple.  Yes, it has 20+ adjustments, but in real life, no one touches much other than timing, and fueling.  Beyond that turning down the cruise fuel a bunch is about all I ever touch.  If you run it closed loop, just play with the A/F's and forget it.

I have been running open loop most of the time since I went thru three Innovate wb systems and average 21-24 mph on the highway and reasonable in town compared to conventional chips.  I actually turned wb control back on in the GN recently as the NGK unit has not failed in three years!  LOL

Eric asked me if I wanted to go to the SD2 but I did not because lately, I just get into the T and drive it...I have too many projects to want to play with Buicks lately.  It does not look all that hard to learn but I really don't see the point because I don't think it will make a ten or eleven second car any faster.

These days, I suggest to most that they should get a 6.1 chip and run closed loop which tends to protect a lot of them from themselves.  It seems to work  quite well and I still look at the timing retard and narrow band as a guide for picking the A/F.



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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #43 on: May 29 2016, 11:29:52 AM »
At what point does a 3in inlet become a restriction.
If I change my 3in inlet to a 4in mafless S.Y. how much will I pick up.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF sensor
« Reply #44 on: May 29 2016, 11:32:14 AM »
As you don't run your car hard, nothing.
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