IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on September 06 2016, 04:20:28 PM
-
I figured I'd start a thread on this, my help others in future also.
I waited way to long on doing this but ordered one this morning and I'm sure I will have some questions along the way. Did a lot of reading on them and seem lots of people struggle with all sorts of different things. That being said it also looks like they can do some pretty awesome things and if a guy figures out the ins and outs of them and you should really be able to get some performance.
That being said, computers hate me, and vise versa, the main reason I procrastinated on this purchase, so we will see how this goes.
As always thanks in advance for any and all advise and direction :cheers:
-
You can hit this link and use some unzip software to install the powerlogger software program on your desktop. Then you can open other peoples files and look at them.
http://www.turbotweak.com/forum/index.php?threads/powerlogger-software-and-installation-docs.1687/ (http://www.turbotweak.com/forum/index.php?threads/powerlogger-software-and-installation-docs.1687/)
Go to the link with the .zip at the end. This will get the pl software in a zipped form downloaded to your computer then you have to unzip it and then run it to install
-
Shimy, what program do you plan on running it with on the LT in the car? Windows 7? Lots of info on Eric's site as Rich alluded to. If your going to run it on windows 7 the drivers need to be loaded manually. That's what I have, on an Acer One notebook. Believe me if I can do this, you can! Just take your time and be patient and ask questions even if they seem simple. Not everyone is a computer guru. You'll enjoy the PL once it's up and running....gre at tuning tool.
-
Windows 7 installed pretty OK. The latest software used registered drivers so it causes less problems.
-
Got the hardware installed and no surprise the computer part is not working.. Can I just say fucking computers are the fucking source of more fucking grief than they are ever fucking worth :icon_fU:
rant over
-
Finally got it working, instructions are vague at best in my opinion. Anyway, I attached 2 files, one from a roll and one launch. from a roll is good with just a hint of knock. the launch was a WOT punch, alarm went off, lifted and hit again and alarm went again.....is it false knock or real....spikes instead of building so I think its false?? What do experts think
-
TPS is a tad low, doubt that would effect much, Steve might know. Should be 4.60
Seems your KR blip happened when your boost spiked to over 25 psi. Volts look ok. O2's little fat......I assume this was a 3rd gear pull
-
yes it was 3rd, very rich on defaults, more concerned with the launch file trying to figure out the knock issue there
-
Is this stabbing it on the street? I'd say your rattling the knock sensor with the tires/drivetrain.
-
Steve...check his IDC. 98 percent in file 1...and over 100 percent in file 2. Look to you like he's sucking those 37lb injectors dry?
-
yes, punching it on the street, thing is it never did this before the new cam was installed.
I agree the 37's are " all in" with this combo but I would think that if they were the problem I would not see knock at launch but later in the run in 3rd at full boost and the O2's are plenty rich now all through 3rd gear?? In the launch file, knock spikes to 15 instantly, making me think its false knock. Just cant figure out what is causing it???
-
Shimy...was that chip burned for your exact combination... and for how much boost.
Just a theory. When you jump on the throttle...the re's certainly a slight delay before the alky can spray it's densest. You're hitting 5900 RPM and 24 PSI...and those 37's are maxed at 107 percent...with the alky going full bore a split second later. I think the KR is real
On file 1 you're rolling into it...and the alky has plenty of time to keep up...and you're only at 4800 RPM. Again...this is just a theory.
-
Brad, thanks for the help. Yes chip is for exact combo. I think I can adjust the alky to come on sooner? I'll have to look at the settings and adjustability. I have a poly motor mount coming....cant hurt. Eric from TT suggested turning off the alky and turning the boost down to 16 and the timing down to 18 and giving it a run to see if that eliminates it.
In theory this new cam has more duration so if anything should create a buffer for knock, as that is the only change ( with valve springs) that has been made and it didn't knock on launch before, but clearly something is up.
-
Called Julio at Alky Control to ask about settings and he say its probably a weak pump. Its 4 years old and he recommends rebuilds every 2 years. Makes sense, weak pump cant ramp up fast enough.
-
Shimy...send Eric the files...get his 2 cents. Post in the chip section on the other board. Calling Eric Marshall...pos t your logs. You'll get a quick response. I think Razor has the alky come on at 6 PSI default...and I assume you have the blue knob on 7...and haven't messed with the defaults in the PAC controller.
Weak alky pump...that's a possible culprit.
For shits and giggles...ask Eric how far the 37's and alky will take you.
-
Sent him the files, will report back....thanks!
-
Looks like it is out of injector to me. It hits 100%duty cycle in the 31 or so sec mark on the one log and the knock retard goes to 15*
I'm no expert but if the injector goes to 100% and beyond it is open and squirting as much as it can. And you are getting knock, I would think that means it is leaning out. Am I wrong> And if so, put some splaining in. I want to learn.
-
Shimy...send Eric the files...get his 2 cents. Post in the chip section on the other board. Calling Eric Marshall...pos t your logs. You'll get a quick response. I think Razor has the alky come on at 6 PSI default...and I assume you have the blue knob on 7...and haven't messed with the defaults in the PAC controller.
Weak alky pump...that's a possible culprit.
For shits and giggles...ask Eric how far the 37's and alky will take you.
37 lb injectors are good for around 400 HP without additional fuel. IDC*Injector Size*Cylinders/BSFC
I use .55 for BSFC for a Turbo buick.
-
Shimy...send Eric the files...get his 2 cents. Post in the chip section on the other board. Calling Eric Marshall...pos t your logs. You'll get a quick response. I think Razor has the alky come on at 6 PSI default...and I assume you have the blue knob on 7...and haven't messed with the defaults in the PAC controller.
Weak alky pump...that's a possible culprit.
For shits and giggles...ask Eric how far the 37's and alky will take you.
37 lb injectors are good for around 400 HP without additional fuel. IDC*Injector Size*Cylinders/BSFC
I use .55 for BSFC for a Turbo buick.
I used the same .55 and came up with 81.3 for my combo which is 93/alky.
Shimy, PM me your address. I've got some 60's with two chips I'll send you to try. They have been on brads car and mine before I did the engine swap. One chip is 5.7 with alky and the other is 5.6 with race gas
-
Shimy...grab those injectors/chips from Jason. I bought them new...and they only have 1/8th and 1/4 mile passes on them.
-
He made me an offer I couldnt refuse....not many guys like Jason left these days!!! Cant wait to get everything and start tuning....last track day is 10-2-16 :icon_lol:
-
The race chip had enuf fuel in it to take me to 6.7. I had the alky chip burned specifically for my car...but only used it on the street a couple times. Ask Jason what the PSI is on it...as I can't remember.
-
He said 25... you have a bigger turbo and better heads but I should be able to pull enough fuel out to get it to work. :rock:
-
Change the alky pump...before you do anything. Changing head gaskets sucks...
-
10-4 and yes it does
-
Shimy...what happens when you hit the test button with the engine idling?
-
Stumbles...the pump I have is working but Julio said he was positive a 5 year old pump was not spraying at adaquate pressure. He thought thats why I was getting knock at launch but not easing into it in 3rd.
-
43-44 PSI line off? PAC controls on default? If you have a Translator are the dip switches set correctly for Erics chip?
-
Yes on all...maybe it just wishful thinking but I think the new pump will be the answer. Put a poly drivers side mount in tonight also :cheers:
-
Fuel pump? What your WOT pressure? Is it matching 1:1 with boost?
-
Alky pump....fuel is going up one to one with boost
-
Last night got the intake gasket replaced, installed the new injectors. When putting the TB back on top felt the back pass side bolt start to strip :013: have an RJC plate in there and the extra height must not leave enough thread to continue to use the recommended 20 LB torque spec...shit! Tonight hope to get the new alky pump and TT chip installed and if the rain holds off start to tune!!
-
I installed a stud on mine that did the same thing worked out well for me.
Mobile larrym
-
good idea! Probably copy you
-
Yes, swap them all to studs.
-
Not sure if you have a fastenal store nearby but that's where I got the all thread and made my studs from it
-
Not sure if you have a fastenal store nearby but that's where I got the all thread and made my studs from it
[/quote
Fastenal is great for some stuff but you need to be a registered company with them to purchase.
-
Not sure if you have a fastenal store nearby but that's where I got the all thread and made my studs from it
[/quote
Fastenal is great for some stuff but you need to be a registered company with them to purchase.
I'm not part of any registered company and buy from them often. Sorry for the way it is wherever you live.
-
I got mine at the local parts store.
Mobile larrym
-
Got some from a farm supply store and got it done tonight :rock:
-
Anyone can buy from Fastenal but be prepared to get as raped without lube. The make their money off of purchasing agents that don't deal in real money.
I recommend stainless (duh) and buying a long stick is a good way of saving money BUT if you have to use a $2 disk for every cut to make a plenum clamp down. at the end of the day you're in deficit. Shit gets expensive with a quickness!
I've played with fasteners enough to learn this kind of stuff and sort it out and what sucks is there's three ways to jack up the price for a bolt kit. One is stainless (duh), two is being a stud, and three is being metric....
Oh yeah, make sure to get 8mm for plenum fasteners, not S.A.E.
-
Many years ago I ordered stainless studs from mcmaster/carr with bullet nuts.
I used three different length studs I believe, two for sure.
I posted what I ordered on t6p....10 years ago....part numbers might still be there.
-
I didn't get fancy, got some full thread 2 inch metric bolts and nuts, cut off the bolt heads to the length I wanted, cleaned them up and cut a slot in the tops, locktite and screwed them in.
-
Farmer ingenuity great minds think alike lol.
Or is it fools seldom differ I'm never sure.
Mobile larrym
-
I used three different length studs I believe, two for sure.
Two different lengths. 4 are the same and the one at the throttle bracket is longer for the extra nut
(giggidy)
-
Did some testing, got a weird knock spike on this run, attached file I hope. Have boost set where its supposed to be at 23 and have fuel in TT chip down to 109, still plenty high on O2, stopped tuning for tonight, ran out of time.
Been thinking that with this chip burned for 23lb and bigger turbo, I might need to up the boost on mine to 25 to try to get the O2's under 800? Also only did a few launch attempts, same old knock alarm on first try with a knock spike so I lifted and turned up the alky control to 7.5 and went again. no knock on logger but alarm did go off, stayed in it up to 50ish and zero knock on logger so I think I may have that demon exercised. Also on the up side, the oil leak is gone and the dipstick leak is too........Tha nks for the help guys!!!
-
It's pig rich...cuz it's for my car. Bigger turbo, heads, IC and Champion intake. High gear knock ain't real...it heard something.
-
What do ya think on increasing the boost to 25-26 to help??
-
Upping boost=lower 02's. Pushing that turbo with stock heads will get to the point of diminishing returns.
-
Yes I understand but I think if I take as much fuel out of setting 1 I will still be to rich. Tomorrow im going to up boost to 25 ( thats what I ran before) and then continue to pull fuel out and see how it works
-
Go slow with the high boost and pulling fuel. Too big a swing gets you repairing something.
-
Shimy, if you have no thots of using the race chip...then send it to Eric and have him burn it as an alky chip tailored specifically for your engine and desired boost level. He can also add specific features to it as well. I broke my own rule...and got that chip from m233roller...M ike Dopkins. I lucked out it had enuf fuel in it to take me to 6.7. Don't do what I did.
-
I was thinking that basic thought, was going to send him my old chip and have him burn it for what I have now.....that being said race day this Saturday so I wanna run because its the last of the year. Raining today so probably no tuning today. After sleeping on it here is what I was planning. Tuning is basic, fuel, boost, timing and monitoring. Now FP is set at 44, going to drop it to 42 and check result, if positive, then going to put boost to 25 and see what it thinks of that, if still okay then going to SLOWLY pull fuel out of setting one and see what that does.
Today gotta make a laptop stand. Kinda hard to look at the knock graph in the pass seat while the car is weaving around on launch. Got a little sideways on me yesterday :O
-
You don't adjust fuel via the AFPR. You do it with either fuel...alky... or a combination of both.
-
Finally got a chance to look at your log. Is it possible to get a log of the engine warmed up in park and one after doing some street driving at a stop light in drive?
-
Sure, probably this afternoon if rain holds off and work allows.
Scoob,
I hear ya on not using AFPR for tuning, Just trying to get through this weekend with what I have to work with. Also I'm one lb heavy now so was thinking a lb light might help me in the right direction. No plans of going below 42LBs.
-
If you're just testing this weekend...and can make plenty of passes...this is what I would do.
1st pass. Leave from an idle and slowly lean into it...and let it go through the gears. I ASSUME you have the knock gauge on the pillar. It's in your line of vision. If both green lites come on...get out of it...and go back and look at the file.
2nd pass. If all's well...boost it up a couple pounds...and get on it. Once again...keep an eye on the knock gauge. If all's well...keep leaving harder on each pass...and watch your fueling...as you may have to make adjustments. Don't forget about 'aggressive mode' with Erics chip.
This is what I do for each pass.
1-At the trailer I set my rear tire pressures 2 pounds higher than what I want them.
2- When I roll into line I set my final rear tire pressure.
3-I get back in the car and fire up the laptop...click on PL...and bring up the gauge panel. 2 races before mine I fire the car up. I scroll through the SM to make sure all the numbers are normal...with particular attention to BLM's.
4-I then click on monitor...and I make sure the gauges are moving and I know it's working.
5-When they wave me in I hit record.
6-When I finish the race I turn off...stop...a nd save the file.
-
Finally got a chance to look at your log. Is it possible to get a log of the engine warmed up in park and one after doing some street driving at a stop light in drive?
Here ya go, also a short top gear pull. This is with FP set to 42
Also Brad or Jason, any info on the injectors I got? I was going to order my chip from TT and he needs more info than just 60lbs??? There are some numbers hand engraved on them but they are all different
-
I'll default to Brad on the injectors. I could've swore that all the hand scribed numbers were the same on those injectors
-
Some more files from testing....... frustrated. Have FP set to 43 on these, added 10% fuel to first, have almost all removed from overall, set at 106. Alky dial set to 8. Cant launch this thing without screaming alarm. Cant race it like this. Might just give up until I can get a chip for my combo
-
The reason you're pulling so much fuel is that you're spraying too much alky. You need to find the instructions for adjusting the turn on point of the alky and make the alky come on sooner rather than later and go back to the original setting of 6 for the amount of alky that is spraying. Looking at the logs now
-
The chip...and injectors...al l came from Eric. There should be a number on the chip...which should give Eric the date he burned it...and that should tell him the brand of injectors he was selling at that time.
-
Thanks guys!!! Ill try the turn on point adjustment !
-
Looking at Erics site he sells Siemens/Mototrons...so he's likely sold them from day 1. Not sure if I sprung for the flow matched set...but I likely did.
-
Thanks again!!!
-
Some more files from testing....... frustrated. Have FP set to 43 on these, added 10% fuel to first, have almost all removed from overall, set at 106. Alky dial set to 8. Cant launch this thing without screaming alarm. Cant race it like this. Might just give up until I can get a chip for my combo
So no knock on the roll in at 8
big time knock on the 1-2 shift and tires broke free on the launch at 8
knock on the 2-3 shift on the high gear 8
Makes me think knock sensor is hearing something in the tranny, especially on the 1-2 shift. Maybe your down pipe is hitting the pinch weld seam of the fire wall and the floor pan. After resetting the ECM, how long are you driving the car to let the chip learn? The reason I ask is that your BLM started at 131 and went to 140 on the drive stopped file.
-
Jason, looks like you think its false knock. Eric Marshall agrees and so does Julio. Probably have 30 minuets of driving since ECM was reset on that log. Raining again today, never stops, so no testing. My heart really wants to race this weekend but my head it telling me to wait for a chip for my combo and start fresh. Hope to get it ordered today.
-
Wait and go in without any doubt. I can tell you I ignore a lot of KR in my TBSS - damn solid mounts and race built trans. Heck, on my last pass right as the TCC locked up - tickle of KR. Why was I confident to ignore it?
1. Fast decay rate (ie. timing pulled was not sustained throughout the run);
2. It was in the same spot/time and roughly the same amount (ie. at launch, on a shift, some other silliness) not influenced by changes to the timing table; and
3. Fuel quality (94 octane base + a can of liquid Schwartz octane booster, 35% ethanol, and propane injection).
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e8/f5/ff/e8f5ffba067b678cc751e5283dcc227b.jpg)
-
Looked at the file late last nite. It's hearing something 4 frames after the shift point. There's some slight KR after...almost like something's loose.
-
Just got out from under it again. The down pipe had about 1/4 space between it and frame, 2 inches between it and seam of firewall and floorpan. did some adjusting of exhaust and now created about 1/2 inch between frame and pipe. Also found a spot on pass side section where pipe goes over axle that may have been contacting rear coil spring?? adjusted it over as much as I could. Have a chip ordered from Eric.
Was looking at the file, launch at 8, what I'm hoping is that the first big spike is at the 1-2 shift, maybe the DP hits hard there, and then the 2 small spikes at 82 mph and 90 mph, maybe the rear spring was hitting as I hit bumps in road.
Really appreciate all the help guys!!! :cheers:
-
Were there any witness marks on the pipe or fame showing a hit?
-
I was dealing with false KR when my TBSS's exhaust was smashing into the tranny x-member; made a little stand/rubber isolator to pick up the slack.
-
It looked like it might have made a mark on the coil spring, at this point anything that even looks suspicious is getting tweaked. With a poly drivers side mount and a good pass side one I cant see the DP moving 1/2 inch and hitting, but something is!! I'm contemplating attaching some rubber on the frame where it would line up to prevent metal to metal contact if it does swing over that much. Checked the belt tensioner and no marks on anything, took belt off and bearing is a little loose but good. On my car the tensioner pulley misses that ac bolt by 1/32 with belt off, so even if it did swing over that far it misses.
-
Converter clutch rattle?
-
How could I determine that
-
I cant see the DP moving 1/2 inch and hitting
I can. Look how far the DP is from the center of the engine... It only take couple of degrees of rotation to end up with that 1/2" And with two mounts they only have to deflect a little, each, to get that 1/2"
-
What mph...roughly. ...does the tranny shift each gear at wot? Is the 1-2 shift about 35?
-
What mph...roughly. ...does the tranny shift each gear at wot? Is the 1-2 shift about 35?
Bring it up on the graph or gauges. What's it say?
-
Thats what it looks like to me and I think that shift is my knock. It jumps to 10-14knock In like 2 frames on that shift point. Ordered my new chip with knock ignore up to 35.... should have said 40.
-
Chip is supposed to deliver today, Nitto NTO5R's are supposed to arrive Thursday, race day Sunday :rock:
-
couple of runs with new chip, ran out of time. one shows some knock but don't think its real, made second run with same settings and it was clean. still real rich.
-
02's check in right around 800 at the end of the run. 102 mph tells me that wasn't a 1/4 mile pass...somethi ng less. I'd expect about 112-113 mph. Remember...the further you go...the leaner it gets. Same conditions...a nd a full 1320. I'd say about 770-780. Erics pretty damn close. I can't tell what your 02 readings are at the shift points...cuz you slowly leaned into it. You'll likely have to pull low gear fuel...but that's just a guess. You'll have to make a run from a dig...and then have a look at the low gear fueling.
-
fun time today..best I could do was 12.1 will post slip and logs tomorrow. Short times were really good for me, 1.6 but still low on top end mph 107ish
-
Does it have a fresh fuel filter? I would be looking into some stuff with that 107mph. Something ain't right.
-
Yes...new. going to check compression tomorrow.
-
log of best run, and slip times
60 ft 1.651
1/8 et 7.626
1/8 mph 88.36
1/4 12.135
mph 107.34
-
Your full low gear timing doesn't come in till 11mph...which leads me to believe you haven't got Erics chip in 'aggressive' mode. Low gear fueling comes in around the 820's. High gear fueling comes in at 780's.
Drag the low gear 02's to 770-780 and take a couple points of high gear fuel out of it...and set Erics chip on 'aggressive' mode. You'll crack the 11's on the same launch and weather conditions.
What size rear tire are you running? 26 or 28?
You're getting a decent RPM drop on that convertor.
-
Thanks Brad,
I thought I did but probably set it wrong, I have setting 3 at 129, thought that was the aggressive setting?
The run before I did have high gear and low gear set one number lower and got knock, so I put high back up one, left low alone and got that run.
My tires are 26 3/16 tall. Nitto NTO5R's....they really hook well.
Really thought I would get in the 11's, that's my goal. I cant see my 60 ft getting that much better, car dosent seem to MPH out the end like I thought it would? Is it the short tire that is hurting me on the big end?
-
Off the top of my head number 3 is low gear timing. Eric says under 35 mph there is no delay. Check your file. Looks like full low gear timing comes in at 11 mph?
-
I agree on log......how do I enable aggressive timing mode....the instruction dont say but I remember reading somewhere you set #3 to 129.
Your thoughts on 26 vs 28 tires?
-
Okay. I assume that's a 255/60/15 tire. I plugged the info into the Wallace Racing Calculator...a nd the slip for that convertor is 17.9 percent.
-
I run 17 inch wheel so its a 275/40/17 nitto nt50r thats 26 3/16 tall. Your way past my understanding. ...is 17.9 % good , average or bad?
-
The circumference for that tire is 83 inches. Plugging in the new data the slip checks in at 13.9 percent. Not bad for an unlocked convertor.
I'd try 1-2 pounds more boost...and see if it picks up on the top end charge.
Think of convertor slip as a clutch slipping on a standard trans. It's not putting all the power to the back wheels.
-
Ill give it a try....thanks!!!
-
update on my slow top end. Did a compression test Pass side from front to back, 152,155,155, drivers side front to back 140,143,130. Test was done cold. Obviously I have a compression issue on drivers side. Should have done the head gasket on that side also when I had it apart just to know its good. Now don't know what to do. Maybe winter project, pull motor and rebuild?? :(
-
Put a squirt or two of oil in each as you test and do the test again. Might tell if it is rings or the valves.
I don't think 130psi is too awfully bad. Is is within 20%.
-
Shimy, do it warmed up too
-
Wasn't really concerned about actual number as much as variation between cylinders. The pass side with the new head gasket is good, the drivers side is not, and the cylinder with 130 is 25 under the pass side. If it was within 10% I'd live with it. But 25 lbs. low is a lot, and I still get a hint of oil out that side valve cover breather. That low cylinder also had a piece of the sparkplug porcelain chipped off by electrode. I think the smart move is to pull that head and see whats up. I hope piston and rings are ok and maybe a new head gasket will solve the problem??
-
Had a chance to wrench a little. Pulled the rockers to close valves and put some air to the lowest cylinder. Got the stethhose out and listened in the intake, exhaust and dipstick tube. I hear no hiss in intake, clear hiss in tail pipe and unfortunately hissing also in dipstick tube. Had to quit but pretty bummed, was really hoping not to hear any hiss in the dipstick tube :icon_confused:
-
update, pulled it apart yesterday and taking heads in for valve job. In listening with scope, I put air to the lowest cylinder and it is really leaking out the exhaust port. I also listened in the crankcase and then put air to the "best" cylinder and listened to the crankcase and the air sound was exactly the same. I'm hopeful that doing the valves brings compression back to within 10% varience.