Author Topic: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...  (Read 381 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chrisssssssss

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • PSI: 0
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Hey all...

So i fixed the fuel pressure but I think my ignition pack or ecm may be fried. When I was removing the FPR during troubleshootin g, I accidentally touched the ratchet to the alternator battery terminal and shorted something fierce.

I had to replace one of the fuses I believe was the bottommost one for the ignition. Do you think that somehow I fried something in the ignition? That being said... I read about upgrading or changing to a type II ignition like found on later model 3.8 or the 3800 style ignition. What is the word on that? I literally have a metric tonne of them because I have a Reatta and a Regal GS supercharged that uses those modules and I have replaced and changed them on multiple occasions for myself and friends and have a  stockpile of spares. I tried to plug one of the 3800 modules into the GN harness and although it has the same basic layout and number of pins, it will not quite fit properly as it is notched differently. If i were to rewire or splice or adapt the wiring harness to accept the newer style ignition module and plate which uses the new coils... is this a solution? I read that people had mixed and inconsistent results with them, but when they work usually the idle is better and smooths things out a bit. Is it worth a try? Im interested how it will go on my car. Any thoughts here?

Another possibility is that my ecm is shot. I tried switching the chips out and no luck. It is also possible that i may have a loose connection on the wiring harness of it too. I remember that being a problem a long time ago when I drove it regularly the engine would sometimes cut out if the ecm was bumped. I tried jiggling, twisting, pushing, pulling, cleaning the contacts of both the harness and chips but still the car won't start.  The scanmaster shows all the correct screens when you cycle through the settings except of course for the main o2 mv where it just displays dashes and the little for because the car isnt running yet so no data from the o2. So i think the ecm is giving out a signal and somewhat functional but is it sending out a signal to the ignition? Is there a way to probe the outputs with a multimeter to see if it's alive and doing what it Is supposed to? I can see if a local buddy of mine has a spare (good chance he does) and try swapping it out. But i will try a few things first if possible.

Lastly just a thought... cam/crank position sensor? I remember having to replace that a while ago. Maybe i will check that too???

Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to relay all the info I had so it will help point out where I have been and done so far. Any help or guidance on any point will be much appreciated. 

Thanks in advance
Chris
86 GN

Offline Scoobum

  • Turbo Street Outlaw
  • *******
  • Posts: 4489
  • PSI: 3
  • HIGH SHERIFF OF HELL
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #1 on: October 11 2020, 08:31:59 AM »
99% of guys struggle with these cars cuz they think 'cool guy' parts will make them run better/faster. I run circles around most with stock junk. Stock junk rules...period . Stay with the stock ignition...don't start cutting/splicing. Steve will help with whatever you fried. He's an electrical wizard.

I have a crapload of how to vids on my Youtube channel...https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx5FoeyV2MovRUIlqWOdBag
109 235 Cubic Inch Stock Stroke Balanced Rotating Assembly
Stock Crank
TRW .030 Pistons
Stock Rods
Stock Timing Chain/Gears
212/212 Flat Tappet Cam
JB Racing Heads
Stock Rockers
5.7 TT Race Chip
Built 2004R
AC 16930
6262 JB

6.72 at 104.67-25 PSI

I see slow people

Offline Steve Wood

  • Turbo Street Outlaw
  • *******
  • Posts: 8797
  • PSI: 29
    • View Profile
    • http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #2 on: October 11 2020, 10:25:36 AM »
Sounds like the ecm is working if the SM is reporting data.

Here is a link off my site that dummies down troubleshootin g   http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/jim_testa.htm

Note that you have to verify spark and verify injector pulse which requires a noid light to be definiitive.  Read thru Jim's link above and follow his routine.
Steve Wood

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com

A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline Chrisssssssss

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • PSI: 0
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #3 on: October 13 2020, 03:59:22 AM »
I went to work on the car today. Confirmed that i had no spark. Well at least I don't have spark any more for sure. Lol. Connected my 98 GS to my GN via jumper cables to make sure i had a nice strong voltage and to keep the battery charged while I was troubleshootin g. For kicks I tried a few times to start the car, change chips, jiggle some wires again to no avail pulled a plug wire and connected it to a spare plug, rested the body on a metal part of the engine to see if i could see a spark while cranking and nothing. so I thought it would be a good idea to try some starting fluid and see if I could get ignition at all just in case the spark plug trick didn't work correctly and indeed still have spark. Well this proved to be a bit of a puzzle on how I was going to inject starting fluid somehow directly into the intake... but thought I don't know if it would work by spraying into the air intake after taking off the cone K&N becuase it would have to travel up the intake tube through the Turbo, intercooler, up pipe and then finally into the intake then the combustion chamber... seemed like too long a journey and somehow I couldn't see it working by the time it got there. So it took me a minute to think on how I was going to do this... and i decided to see if I could spray it into the alky tank and through the alky pump and into the alky nozzle where it is tapped into the up pipe. However just as I was tinkering and preparing the apparatus needed to do this... the ignition module started making a funny sizzling noise and started billowing smoke out of the side and oozing blacky greeny bubbly slime out the side of tbe ignition module and one of the coils... so I grabbed a pair of pliers and disconnected the positive terminal of the battery on the GN and the jumper cables from the GS which was still running. So now I have a slimy slightly melted ignition module and coil pack. No spark now for sure lol... As a side note, as I was gathering the aforementioned apparatus to prepare to spray into the alky box... the car was unstarted but key was in the on position for about 10-15 mins before it started smoking. Nothing changed just all of a sudden i heard bubbling and then a few seconds later billowing smoke... it may have been sizzling for a while and I may not have noticed or heard it becuase of quite loud background noise.

So I took it off the car and opened it up and have stinky black slime oozed around where it was smoking from. I haven't tested any of the coils or nothing further than this becuase I am typing this right now. So it may take me a bit to find or order another coil pack to replace this one unless local buddy has a spare but haven't heard back yet from him. I live in Canada so things take a few days to get here if I order online or i can also see if the local parts store can get me one faster however it will be pricier. Gonna look into that route when I finish typing this out.

Or...

Like I said earlier... I have a pile of good working type II ignition modules and coil packs from later model 3800 engines and might try and somehow adapt this system to at least see if the car will run. There is some info and vague data that states it is possible to do but inconclusive if it will actually be beneficial to the performance if not. Some have has success, some heavily modded cars have experienced some ignition breakup around the 5krpm mark and not sure where that issue sits whether resolved or not. I am not planning on racing it, just want to see if it will actually run while I am waiting for a new coil/ignition module to get here. Or if it works mint then save the money and experiment with that setup at least for a bit and see what happens. The wiring doesn't match up exactly so I will look into what needs to be done to mate them properly. Haven't quite decided which way I'm gonna go yet. I will see what the price is and go from there.

I hope that this is the only issue that is preventing the car from starting. The thing that bothers me is that it is highly unlikely the ignition module killed itself and just spontaneously combusted... but it is possible. Usually there is a reason that it heated up like that and resulted in this condition. If there somewhere is a shorted out wire in the harness or a bad ground cause by either a mouse while parked or when I shorted out the ratchet handle on the alternator during the first troubleshootin g stage when I was removing the FPR for inspection.

Thoughts?
Anyone got a spare coil pack/ignition module they wanna sell to a super friendly Canadian? Haha let me know.


Offline 1 RARE T

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 89
  • PSI: 2
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #4 on: October 13 2020, 08:47:53 AM »
You should not be working on this car.

You don't chase an ignition problem with starting fluid through an alky system.

Offline Scoobum

  • Turbo Street Outlaw
  • *******
  • Posts: 4489
  • PSI: 3
  • HIGH SHERIFF OF HELL
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #5 on: October 13 2020, 09:27:03 AM »
Steve told you what to do. You're not listening. Coil pack and ignition module can be picked up at any parts store here in Canada. If not in stock...then they'll get it in the next day. Put the lighter fluid away...before you blow yourself up.

Walk in and tell them you want this module...part number is on the box...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZLzhK17ML4
« Last Edit: October 13 2020, 09:31:15 AM by Scoobum »
109 235 Cubic Inch Stock Stroke Balanced Rotating Assembly
Stock Crank
TRW .030 Pistons
Stock Rods
Stock Timing Chain/Gears
212/212 Flat Tappet Cam
JB Racing Heads
Stock Rockers
5.7 TT Race Chip
Built 2004R
AC 16930
6262 JB

6.72 at 104.67-25 PSI

I see slow people

Offline Steve Wood

  • Turbo Street Outlaw
  • *******
  • Posts: 8797
  • PSI: 29
    • View Profile
    • http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #6 on: October 13 2020, 09:49:16 AM »
That is the scariest thing I have ever read.

check the CCCI and ECM-IGN fuses.  Both of them have to be good or you will not get spark.

I am not going to contribute anymore to the thread as I don't want anything to do with destroying a car.
Steve Wood

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com

A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline Chrisssssssss

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • PSI: 0
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #7 on: October 13 2020, 11:05:00 AM »
Agreed. I will put down the starting fluid. I never usually have any problems like this. I will follow the leader and take the advice. Will order the proper coil and ignition pack and check all the fuses. Will replace it and report back. Usually I am pretty good at diagnosing things. I have a very logical thought process. My mind was elsewhere today. So i will directly methodically follow the procedure. I didn't get any sleep last night and gonna blame it on that. I appreciate the advice. I work on all my own cars and keep them running well. I have many and tackle each issue with usually better judgement than i did today. For some dumb reason I got starting fluid in my head and lost my voice of reason. So. I will do what you said and report back.

However there is still a little part of me that wants to try the type II ignition coils. They made a huge difference on my reatta BUT I am not even gonna entertain that thought any more. Going with stock.

My other vehicles include:
98 Regal GS supercharged with GenV m90 blower and heads swap.
89 Reatta just turned 52K miles on it. All stock except for ignition upgrade
90 Cutlass Calais Quad4 HO 5sp international series coupe
10 Challenger Summer Daily driver but coming off the road this winter for a competition level sound system install. Excited about this one. Have been planning it for a long time.
05 Maxima winter daily driver. May get rid of it and use the GS this winter as a daily. The GS is going to be gutted and used as my FWD drag car.

Previous rides:
92 Taurus SHO 5sp with a 3.2 block from automatic version swap using 3.0L cams, superchip.
92 Typhoon running about 500HP. Low 12s High 11s in the 1/4. Full upgrade of everything truck was a monster. Have a vid of it running 12.3 at 107.
86 Jetta 4dr diesel automatic (rare only like 10% were built with an auto trans) and i took a turbo diesel from a newer same gen golf and swapped out the n/a motor out. They never came with a turbo diesel auto so it was a one of a kind build.

Just bought a 59 mercury Monterey. 4dr. Needs TLC but otherwise all in great shape no rust other than some surface patina... and needs front seats reupholstered.

So I'm gonna try again today properly. Still have no thoughts or explanation as to why the ignition module smoked like that. I never touched anything that would have caused anything like that. Just sitting there idling. I hadn't even gotten anywhere with my thoughts yet. Was just starting to put my stupid plan in motion when that happened. While I am waiting for the module to come in I am gonna go over all the wiring checking for any possible signs of a source or cause. I think i am also going to upgrade all the power leads and wiring and grounds throughout the engine bay making sure nothing is shoddy.

Offline Chrisssssssss

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • PSI: 0
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #8 on: October 13 2020, 11:17:38 AM »
That ignition module. I'm assuming it's bare. I guess i need to order the coil pack for it separately correct?

Offline Chrisssssssss

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • PSI: 0
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #9 on: October 13 2020, 03:31:07 PM »
Coil and module ordered. Sbould be here within the next day or two

Offline daveismissing

  • Two Buicks- too little money$$
  • Turbo Street Outlaw
  • *******
  • Posts: 6433
  • PSI: 3
  • Two Buicks- too little money$$
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #10 on: October 15 2020, 09:56:04 PM »
Did I read correctly that you changed the crank sensor? Did you get it in the right slot?
-Drain plug by Earl Brown, custom oil pan by Rich's Auto

Offline ULYCYC

  • Turbo Street Modified
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
  • PSI: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #11 on: October 16 2020, 06:00:53 AM »
This will answer your next question.


ED BAKER
87-T, Maplight equipped rear view mirror..
01 Park Ave Ultra S\'charged
BPG#1458

Offline Chrisssssssss

  • Bone Stock
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • PSI: 0
  • Boost n00b
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #12 on: October 21 2020, 07:15:12 AM »
Just an update... ordered a new ignition module and coil pack from Lordco (local auto parts chain) said it would take 2 or 3 days to come in. Replaced both and car started without further incident so it was one of the two.

Thanks for all the input and help.

Offline daveismissing

  • Two Buicks- too little money$$
  • Turbo Street Outlaw
  • *******
  • Posts: 6433
  • PSI: 3
  • Two Buicks- too little money$$
    • View Profile
Re: Fixed the fuel pressure, car still won't start. No spark now...
« Reply #13 on: October 21 2020, 07:01:03 PM »

Glad it is fixed.
If it wasn't for Rust Valley/Rust Brothers TV show I would have never heard of Lordco :)
-Drain plug by Earl Brown, custom oil pan by Rich's Auto