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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: TexasT on August 21 2019, 11:28:19 AM

Title: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on August 21 2019, 11:28:19 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/XBWKjqJF/IMG-20190812-080057.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XBWKjqJF)


Well after over thirty yrs of ownership(bought it new and have enjoyed driving it very much), a lady ran into the back of it on the way to work last Monday. It will be repaired, and I'm waiting on the lady's insurance to come out and adjust on it.

Gonna need a frame, pass quarter and some other parts, bumper, tail light, cap, filler ect...
(https://i.postimg.cc/2LCHH2nP/IMG-20190812-080720.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LCHH2nP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4npwDkdV/IMG-20190812-080048.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4npwDkdV)

This brings me to the question. Can I use any G body frame? Do i "need" a turbo regal specific frame? The car wont be sold in my lifetime, I have two children that love it and I'm sure one will become the care taker when I"m gone. Original is kinked(see pic) so I'm not really wanting to try to have it "pulled" back. Considered doing a frame notch but would not think it would be as strong as a not previously kinked one.

Any thoughts as I'm sure there have been others who have been through this traumatic experience.

Worst part was the little chevy that hit it was just scratched up and she drove it away.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TKNcVT7M/IMG-20190812-080316.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TKNcVT7M)
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on August 21 2019, 12:20:06 PM
The HS frames are supposed to be thicker, but that's not really a deal breaker.


If you're not in a hurry to put it back on the road, I'd buy a junker Regal.  Then pull the body off, do a bunch of autocross style frame reinforcements, suspension cleaning/painting/upgrades, etc...


Then patch up your body and put it on the 'new' frame.     With any luck the hypothetical junk roller will have a good ass end.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: nocooler on August 21 2019, 01:51:57 PM
Holy shit Rich - that sucks!
Couple other options, talk to a frame shop about straightening, chassis shop fabricate a tube rear frame section, or be a like a up north red neck and replace the rear rails with donors.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Grumpy on August 21 2019, 03:05:43 PM
I'd have a frame shop pull it out straight an replace just the rear section part of the frame where it's attached to the side rails (factory welds. Not hard to do at all. ) Body I'd do the same. If ya have buckles in the roof they should come out when they pull everything back like it should be. Then just replace the rear quarter and other damaged panels. hmmm are both rear quarters damaged ???? If so I'd clip it . Cleaner job. Good Luck
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on August 21 2019, 03:27:46 PM
I have some feelers out. Yeah it does blow, Not drive able as the frame rubs the tire. I have a line on a car that has been apart since early 2ks, last tagged in 03. Body is off the frame, frame has been notched. Guy was doing an LS swap but lost interest. It is pretty much what I want as it is a rosewood ltd turbo car. Unfortunately no drive train. I might know the guys he thinks he sold it to but that is a future thing when I get this car secured.


My idea is to try to find a rolling chassis. set this body on it and get it to my place. Then I can use the notched frame and maybe do some mini tubs on the black one. Swap the drivetrain out of the black one and do the 4.1 for the black one. That has been the plan but I never could pull the trigger on a decent running 3.8 in the car. Then the only hurdle becomes a rear end for the black car. Maybe a nine inch, possibly figure out how to use the 8.5 ten bolt I have out of a 72 skylark with the bolt in axles. That turbofish38 guy did that swap on his back when.


Really my dreams have been running wild as a rosewood chrome car is really a dream for me and this one kinda fell in my lap if I can get the money together and do the logistics. A couple of my local friends have said they would help get it so we will have to see.
A little teaser pic of the one I want to get.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TKrKG6FM/IMG-20190814-153305.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TKrKG6FM)


The ugly, It needs a driver side floor pan.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3yyTkCh/IMG-20190814-153647.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3yyTkCh)


Some assembly required. It has 78k original miles and it has the big stainless trim on the rocker and doors. I like that.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Steve Wood on August 21 2019, 03:38:38 PM
Me too!
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: xpander343 on August 21 2019, 08:50:54 PM
Sorry to see that happen Rich, glad to hear you are okay though.  Knowing you, you'll get it back together again.  Be pretty cool if you are able to pick up the limited.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: daveismissing on August 21 2019, 10:00:02 PM
So Sorry!. I thought this was your driver- can you work around that?
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on August 22 2019, 08:04:47 AM
It was until last Monday. I have a couple trucks and I went ahead and deleted the vats on the one I was going to swap a newer 411 computer into. That will have to wait now. I put a pair of front shocks on it and pressed it into service. I'm having trouble with the short and long term fuel trims on bank one. I put a new o2 in as I believe them to be original but it won't go to readiness as the o2 heater won't make ready even after driving it four days. Starts and runs. No mil. Might have a vacuum leak but I sprayed it down with carb cleaner around the intake and pulled the maf off and sprayed it with the fancy maf cleaner spray. Still 25% on the Ltft and with the o2 the short terms got worse to the 30-34% range. Probably just going to have to pull the manifold and put new gaskets in.


The adjuster is suppose to be here this am. We will see what happens.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Forzfed on August 22 2019, 10:22:47 AM
Hopefully you're alright!  I can't get over the damage.  I wonder what the cost would be to fix the other car even though it doesn't look that bad?
Here's a to a speedy recovery for the car! :cheers:
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Top Speed on August 22 2019, 11:34:01 AM
That sucks.  Sorry to hear that.  Hopefully you can salvage it if you want to.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: wmsonta on August 22 2019, 02:26:36 PM
I would have sworn I have the market cornered on bad luck. Nobody hurt?
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: daveismissing on August 22 2019, 05:42:09 PM
I wonder what happened to those nice frames Charlie was working on?
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on August 22 2019, 08:11:26 PM
Probably still sitting in the same spot
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: good2win22 on August 23 2019, 02:27:28 PM
Rich asked me about them. I’ll be home this afternoon and I’ll try to run out to Charlie’s old place and see if they’re still there.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on August 23 2019, 06:16:55 PM
The more I look at it, the more I think you should just pull the frame leg straight.  From the bend back really doesn't do anything important.  All it does is hold up the trunk.
  All the weight of the car is in front of the bend, (hence the weakspot there) and all the suspension load is well in front of that at the front of the link arms.


It's basically a tuning fork hanging out there in the wind.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on August 23 2019, 06:46:27 PM
Rich asked me about them. I’ll be home this afternoon and I’ll try to run out to Charlie’s old place and see if they’re still there.
DO you happen to know the guy Charlie rented from? That would be a fitting tribute if we could secure one of those. .




On another tangent. I talked to the adjuster while ago. He seemed almost giddy and said he had what he thought was good news. They valued the car very well in my opinion and with their calculations they are going to repair it. Crazy I know. So I put in a message to the body guy to see about getting a time to bring it over and into his frame machine and do some tugging and pulling and see if the original estimate will do or if there will be additional cost.


This is pretty good news to me. And might even afford me the coin to aquire that rosewood LTD shell. Time will tell.


Oh and also talked to a guy local who has what he thinks is a turbo regal roller with what might be a good quarter. He sent pix but I'm going to see it next sat and pick it up if it will work.


Next question. Not for street driving but I'm thinking I will get some washers behind  the wheel to space it out so the body work doesn't tear up the spare. Just for moving it around. Should be good, any objections. Second option is a sledge hammer and some adjustment.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on August 23 2019, 08:30:16 PM
Some washers just to roll it around will be fine.     Just just can't drive on it because the wheel might not be hubcentric anymore.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on August 24 2019, 02:09:27 PM
Cool. I really value y'all's opinions. I can come up with things that I need to be told no on and I'm glad there are those here that will do just that.


I'm felling better about the whole thing and will keep moving fwd.


Looking at cheap plasma cutters and maybe a $7-800 welder that can do ac/dc so I can tig. Nothing fancy, but Id like to do some fab so I can stiffen up the frames I put under these cars.


Son is suppose to be ordering up the brackets and engine mounts for the fiero swap and we are almost done with the daughters sundance head gasket failure/replacement. Who knew we would need a special tool to tension the timing belt? So there went a week of down time waiting for it to come(actually came wed so that was quick.).   


Like the river we are pushing forward!
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: SuperSix on September 21 2019, 12:35:31 AM
Sorry to hear, buddy - hope you are OK, cars can be fixed.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on September 21 2019, 06:12:10 AM
We located and aquirred a donor vehicle. It is in the garage. Still waiting on the insurance fundage. Talked to the adjuster yesterday. He is sending a check. We are going to get sent plasma cutter and cut up the donor for the quarter. It has some rust but was the nicest one I could locate that was in the budget. And it came with a bunch of decent interior pieces and exterior trim to replace my faded and damaged stuff. So I'm hoping to learn about body work. And after that paint. 
We still have the fiero swap, trans for the suburban and now a fence post broke off and the wife has been wanting that. Section of fence replaced with taller so that came to the top of the to do list. Digging up thirty yr old landscape timbers used as fence posts pretty much sux. City requires the use of metal posts so I bought five ten footers and we are doing eight foot high fence for four eight foot sections. Should make her happy. Going to actually be six ft fence and two ft corrugated metal at the top as seen on Pinterest. I'm glad aim handy. Paying someone to do up what she wants could be expensive.   
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 02 2020, 11:27:03 AM
Well time sure doesn't stop. I'm into the thoughts on assembling an engine. For the mythical rosewood car. I have it in my sights and am getting the rolling chassis from the white one readied to hopefully make that aquasition. So with that come the need for an engine. I picked up the .040 over 291 4.1 L short block. Suppose to be rebuilt and all wrapped in shrink wrap and came from an engine seller in Dallas. Just old stick he was getting rid of according to him. Anyway I'm to the point of probably doing at least a half fill of hard block and hoping the bores are straight. This would get me to a set of the Earl brown special pistons and a chicom forged crank. I'm thinking if I can have the crank not flex it will help this old a$$ block stay together and not need the billet middle caps. This would help keep the machining cost down as it wouldn't need the line hone hopefully with the new caps. Would want to do studs so it still might need a hone. Time will tell. 
Am I way off thinking I can get away with the forged crank and stock rods with the stock caps with the studs? 
Also the $499 forged crank at full throttle speed notes that it is internally balanced. Does this differ from stock? Is it a drop in piece or do I need to plan the budget accordingly to include some more machine work on it? 
Thanks for reading. Let me know what you think. 
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Scoobum on March 02 2020, 12:41:41 PM
Before you do anything...get the block magnafluxed. Better yet...sell the block. You want as much 'meat' between the cylinder bore and water jacket as possible. I went into the water jackets on a .030 over 109 not once...not twice...but 3 times. The third time the cylinder cracked all the way to the deck...and I tossed the block. Stock 109 block, rods, pistons and crank will run bottom 10's all day with zero KR. Find yourself as close to standard bore 109 as possible.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 02 2020, 02:12:45 PM
I would highly recommend the pistons.

Those things exist because I broke federal mogul cast pistons TWICE on my 4.1 (3 pistons total).  The first two only went a couple hundred yards before cracking #1 and #3.

I can make them .041" too if you don't like the current hone job or there's rust on the walls.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Steve Wood on March 02 2020, 02:16:32 PM
If I recall correctly, stock is externally balanced.  Internal balance will require matching damper and flex plate.

Hate to say it, but, I might consider an LS because it might be cheaper, and more reliable.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 02 2020, 03:23:21 PM
I'm too die hard to go ls. Though that is why I bought the 2003 k2500 for the kids to destroy but it just keeps on running.

I've always wanted to do a 4.1 but I do know the cube difference aint much. Thought about stroker as I've dreamed of that too but then you get into a set of rods too. I just wanted to try it cheap. Though would like to do forged pistons and forged crank as I think the stock crank flexes too much and that is what wrecks the stock blocks. Gets to wiggling all over the place and spits it out the bottom. Thought the hard block and forged crank could keep that under control. Stock rods seem plenty strong as I don't see people have probs with them.

I don't want a strip only , all out drag car. Needs to cruise and be a street car. And as a rosewood it won't Garner the attention of a black car. Just needs to have ac, be comfortable and if it can lay down some beatings on the street or strip that much better. I loved driving my we4 and definately miss it. Though I'm about ready to pull the GS out of the trailer out the we4 in and go at that for fun and excitement. Helped a buddy swap an engine in his 71 ls5 Chevelle and he let me have a turn behind the wheel and I definately could be happy with the GS up and running/driving.

Lots to think over. A 109 out of the we4 is definately in play along with the 4.1 as I have the .040 over one and another that I picked up that I believe it is stock bore so it would go 4.00 I believe. But with some custom pistons I think the .040 is best to start with as the STD bore block would bring more if it went on the block to sell. Did I mention I'm a cheap bastid.

Thanks for the input I value all of it. Keep it coming if you have more.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Scoobum on March 02 2020, 04:19:09 PM
As I said above. A stock 109 short block will run bottom 10's all day long with zero KR. Bison has pounded several minutes of 9 second power through the stock 109 short block in his blue car. He said in a post awhile back he'd take every 109 block GM ever produced, cuz they're that durable. I agree, cuz I walked the walk with stock junk every weekend, and ran circles around most. Stay as close to standard bore as possible with a 109, stay out of KR...and you'll have no issues. Spend all the money you want on internals...bu t throw some KR in...and the engine will eat itself anyway.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 02 2020, 04:50:43 PM
It will most likely be run on e85 and might get some ta heads. Might even spray some meth into it to cool the thing a bit. And Ken told me the custom slic should be worked out and ready to copy by the time I get it together. 
-8 feed,-6 return and a big pump or two in the tank. Might even be into a stand alone to do some flexfuel sensor and pwm on a second pump. Lots of cool new stuff to try out. 
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 02 2020, 05:59:06 PM
No reason to go straight to 4.000" on the 4.1 unless you just have to.  That's .035" over right off the bat.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 02 2020, 06:18:10 PM
I guess that is old thinking to get to cheap rings.

As above I think I'd start with the .040 over block and a chicom forged crank. Half fill it with hard block and do an aluminum radiator with big tubes to cool it. I have a couple sets of two dot rods and a couple sets of 8445 heads. But would want to go to aluminum heads so I could run a decent amount  of compression. Custom pistons for size and height so I can zero deck it. I need to get that short block stripped down and measured to see about the bores and deck height. No telling after it went through what I would think is a mass rebuilder.

I understand the 109 has been done. It works because guys like bison and Dan's sil worked at it. When they say stock, I wouldn't believe it has never been apart. Those LS engines go straight from the wrecking yard to a fox body with a pg and big turbo and are in the 5s in the eighth. Again, seen it so why would I want to do that? 

Next cool thing would be a ta block and lots of boost but that kinda kills the budget vibe. And I dream of one of these new Ken Betts bbb block to do a port injected turbo big block. Maybe 470 inches, some e85 and lots of boost. A lottery win is all that stands in my way.  

I'll keep an eye out for a 109 but they(30 yr old cars)  have pretty much all but dried up at my local yards. I can see why guys do the ls. They are everywhere and with some hptuners can run the stock computer until it gets pretty wild. 

We are definately in a time never before seen. The muscle cars of the sixties and seventies were pretty wild and the eighties and early ninties produced some great cars. But man, today from the showroom floor there are vehicles that are unfathomable compared to those eras. 

It is an awesome time to be a car guy .
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Scoobum on March 02 2020, 06:52:31 PM
You can put 800 to the rear tires on a junkyard 6.0 litre all day long without hurting it. Matt pushed his junkyard 6 litre to just over 1000 to the back tire before it bent a connecting rod. Only thing he did to that engine was widen the top ring gap, new valve springs and an aftermarket cam and a cheapass turbo. He never even used a torque wrench.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 02 2020, 10:09:05 PM
You won't have to zero deck your block with my slugs.  I can make the CH put the crown at your exact deck height and you can leave all the metal on it (and not have to pay for the decking)
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 03 2020, 11:36:51 AM
That is a big advantage to me. Getting to zero deck without the block getting cut. 

I'm off to search a forged crank that will drop in. Not really into figuring out the dampner and flexplate balancing thing. I guess any crank shaft place could do it but that just adds to the cost. 
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 03 2020, 02:14:53 PM
If you have a lathe, you can just knock off the weight and convert it to neutral balance (and balance it by itself).    Flexplates are cheap.

If you're worried about a 'drop in', might be best to stick with stock stroke.  Going stroker will require checking a lot more stuff (which you should check anyway)
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 03 2020, 03:31:52 PM
Yes, stock stroke. Didn't want to complicate it more than necessary. 
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 07 2020, 07:51:29 AM
https://www.cnc-motorsports.com/eagle-4140-forged-steel-crankshaft-buick-38l-v6-523136255967.html

SO, I'm doing some surfin and came on this one that sez external balanced and is cheaper on the surface with the machining seemingly done.
Any thoughts on this one?
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Scoobum on March 07 2020, 08:36:54 AM
Contact Steve V on the other board. I'm sure he's used these cranks. It may/may not be drop in and he'll know the pros/cons of these cranks. This is gonna be an expensive build when all is said and done.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: nocooler on March 07 2020, 09:35:19 AM
If you are going to buy a crank and pistons, spend the extra $$$ and get some good rods. You are going to be paying for a balance job either way. I agree with Brad you want the thickest cylinder walls possible. 

I know the Buick doesn't like to rev high - but I think some of the tuning tricks used to keep stock bottom end LS stuff alive could be applied. 
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 08 2020, 06:52:34 AM
I guess I just can't see why I need better rods other than the stock ones are thirty yrs old. I've not seen one break. It is the block or the crank that seems to have probs. 
I will message Steve v and see what he thinks. He sure puts out some nice vids on trans assembly. I see he is doing a couple v6 builds with some crap mass rebuilder cores on FB. 
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Scoobum on March 08 2020, 10:45:17 AM
I had a 4.1 block with thots on building it. After going into the water jackets in the .030 over 109 3 times I learned my lesson and sold the 4.1.

I ran a .020/.30 stock crank in the .030 over 109 and a std/std in the standard bore with zero issues...and I beat on both those engines every weekend at the track. Both engines had all the internals magnafluxed and both rotating assemblies were balanced. Stock junk is as durable as it gets.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: TexasT on March 08 2020, 02:42:41 PM
Beatings at the track is different than street driving it. I'm just trying to get the crank flex to a minimum as I have seen plenty of main webs busted out of stock blocks. And I believe the crank moving all over the place is what does it. The billet main caps are nice to try and control that flex but a stiff forged crank that doesn't flex would be better than trying to control the 30yr old stock noodle. And if it is a drop in piece it will save the machining cost too. And for <$500 for a new crank, it seems like a bargain.

I have also been looking for a short stroke billet crank but I'm not holding my breath. I'm a fan of big bore for breathing and unshrouding the valves. The cubes can be made up for with more boost. Ken W is pushing 38psi through his with a good tune on the gnecu, e85 and his new intercooler. Stock bottom end. He posted some six sec runs from yesterday at the track. Plus the shorter stroke puts less force on the piston walls. More of a straight up and down motion.

Good stuff. Keep the ideas coming. Helps me work through the plan.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: reality on March 08 2020, 09:52:56 PM
. Plus the shorter stroke puts less force on the piston walls. More of a straight up and down motion.

That's the theory but is there any proof of that.

Engine masters did a dyno test on that and essentially no difference in HP
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 09 2020, 06:16:47 PM
The evidence is basic geometry.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: reality on March 09 2020, 09:35:39 PM
Yea I was thinking rod length not stroke. My bad.

Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 10 2020, 02:19:48 AM
Rod length will change the angle only slightly.   Moving the rod journals closer to the main centerline will straighten it right up.

Make the stroke 0" and there will be no side loading at all.
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: Steve Wood on March 10 2020, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: earlbrown

Make the stroke 0" and there will be no side loading at all.
Will that make my quench better?
Title: Re: Had a bit of bad luck
Post by: earlbrown on March 10 2020, 11:32:40 AM
It'll defiantly make it more consistent.