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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: shmed on October 09 2016, 06:39:29 PM

Title: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 09 2016, 06:39:29 PM
ok so we got the new motor in  still a 109, 
wired it up
go to start it an it fires after a bit of cranking an dies immediately ??


heres whats been hacked out of it
ac ,   heater box, wiper motor,   cruise control, charcoal canister,   power master.   an the temp  sensor on the top of the intake it   broke off  so   not wired up..  think thats all i see missing..


so far we tried a  new battery,   coil pack an module, crank sensor.    added   a ground from block to frame,  cleaned an tightend  grounds at back of head. 
all the sensor reading look ok   i mean for just key on type stuff.   
any ideas
thanks guys
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Scoobum on October 09 2016, 07:16:30 PM
When something like this rears it's ugly head, I go straight to Steves site.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 09 2016, 08:02:30 PM
yes thanks   brad I've been on the site tried what he has written  nothing thus far..

Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: earlbrown on October 09 2016, 08:43:06 PM
Does it fire up and die every time, or did it bust off once and that was it?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: TexasT on October 09 2016, 08:56:03 PM
Fuel pressure?
Pump priming with the key turn?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: daveismissing on October 09 2016, 10:24:06 PM
I get fuzzy on this~ but the two feeds to the fuel pump both come up - inc the cct that senses oil pressure?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Scoobum on October 10 2016, 05:49:08 AM
I'd be looking for proper fuel pressure at the fuel rail. If that checked out...then I'd go through Steve's 'no start' tree.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 10 2016, 09:51:00 AM
Earl  yes it fires an then dies every time,


texas  yes can hear fuel pump when key is turned on   i believe the gauge reads 20   then with another turn of the key it hits 38


I'm  curious if one of the removed items maybe be causing   this? 
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Scoobum on October 10 2016, 10:10:00 AM
Spark?
Injector pulse?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Just a Six? on October 10 2016, 10:26:48 AM
Temp sensor? What happens when that's not working? I forget how important it is?
As the car fires up for a second does the fuel pressure stay at 38?
I've had the pump hold key on & also pressure jump up for a second but then die when engine fired years ago.
The 2" rubber fuel line on the pump cracked open a bit but that's probably pretty rare?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 10 2016, 10:52:39 AM
brad  yes   spark an ink pulse
dave im not sure i thought that may be the problem..
i unplugged the maf an the car  fired up an ran no problem.  strange to  me but hopefully its all it was,,,,  ill post back with an update...
saturdays is race day if we can get the car off the stands....
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 10 2016, 12:10:41 PM
well so much for the excitement....
changed out the maf with my spare..    same problem   starts an dies..  unplug maf   fires right up???
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: earlbrown on October 10 2016, 03:47:13 PM
Are you running a translator?  If so look inside the plug and see if a pen is bent.

Have you done the KOEO MAF test to see if the computer is making up numbers or if the MAF is actually reporting to the ECM?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Old Buzzard on October 10 2016, 03:50:28 PM
" an the temp  sensor on the top of the intake it   broke off  so   not wired up.."
That sensor is the overtemp to turn on the fan, if the temp goes over about 225*.
The canister.. Did you plug the hose off? If so, that's the tank vent. Pull the cap, it starts and stays running?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 10 2016, 04:04:51 PM
earl what is the  koef  test?    i did try key on engine off an af was at 4   then full  throttle still 4  is this what you mean?
      no translator  stock maf


old buzzard your are correct  not wired up   the canister isn't there or the electrical gizmo on top   i didn't plug the lines there still sitting here open ended.
 

Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 10 2016, 04:07:18 PM
when the maf is unplugged an it does run   fuel pressure is at 42 line off.
 when it is running   the idle is around 1800????
 regardless of throttle plate stop location

Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 10 2016, 04:08:03 PM
glad its our thanksgiving  and I'm cooking an drinking an doing garage things lol   the guests just love it  lol

Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: earlbrown on October 11 2016, 01:42:05 AM
earl what is the  koef  test?    i did try key on engine off an af was at 4   then full  throttle still 4  is this what you mean?
      no translator  stock maf

You did it right.  If the MAF reading stays the same that means the ECM is communicating with the MAF.  If the number goes up as you push the throttle, that means the ECM is having to guess as the airflow and there's no communication.

That test can spin you out if you're running a Translator with a bad MAF. as it means the ECM is in contact with the Translator thinking it's talking to a MAF but there isn't any actual airflow data going to the translator.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: daveismissing on October 11 2016, 08:33:36 AM
Glad to see Chuck is here.
You did check that the TPS is a reasonable voltage and not stuck?
Title: starts an dies
Post by: larrym on October 11 2016, 02:16:09 PM
I have had a similar symptom with a translator unplugged at the MAF check your wiring to the MAF


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Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: TexasT on October 11 2016, 03:06:20 PM
Glad to see Chuck is here.
You did check that the TPS is a reasonable voltage and not stuck?

I'm sure he read about the circle jerk and wanted to see what it was all about. Haha
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 11 2016, 06:00:16 PM
ok  am i on to something here or still spinning my wheels...


after speaking   with my helper...  he tells me he had the iac out an  it was stuck  so he unstuck it???    but said it worked fine near the end of last season??


SO  i unplugged the iac  an it started up  like its supposed to just rpm was in the 1500   area ??


ideas thoughts??



Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Steve Wood on October 11 2016, 06:09:04 PM
the IAC is a solenoid.  Trying to fix it probably broke the plunger connection some how??
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Scoobum on October 11 2016, 06:14:18 PM
Shmed, I think you can still buy the IAC from the dealer. Got a new one for my car a few years back.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: daveismissing on October 11 2016, 06:35:56 PM
Its a bipolar stepper motor inside ,must turn a screw like part inside to move the visible part in and out a tiny bit. Dunno how one would even unstuck-it.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: daveismissing on October 11 2016, 08:26:53 PM
Rockauto show them for $25-55 CDN. seem readily available
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: earlbrown on October 11 2016, 08:48:16 PM
Its a bipolar stepper motor inside ,must turn a screw like part inside to move the visible part in and out a tiny bit. Dunno how one would even unstuck-it.

I was thinking the late 80's F-bodys had the threaded ones you could adjust but ours was fixed.

That being said, years ago I noticed one in the junkyard on a plain ole shitbot GM beater car and grabbed it.  It works fine on my GN to this day.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Just a Six? on October 12 2016, 06:44:38 AM
Blast off the carbon if dirty with some Brake Cleaner etc & try it again. Can`t hurt.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: shmed on October 12 2016, 04:26:51 PM
well replaced it with a new one  no change   starts then dies??


could this be a vacuum leak ??? 
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: daveismissing on October 12 2016, 06:06:47 PM
And still runs at 1500 if you unplug IAC?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Scoobum on October 12 2016, 06:21:14 PM
And still runs at 1500 if you unplug IAC?

Dave...what commands the IAC? You're the electrical wizard.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Scoobum on October 12 2016, 06:56:17 PM
Shmed, I found a thread on the other board that sounds a lot like your problem. Swap the ECM with a known good one. There's a driver in the ECM that has something to do with the IAC...you may have smoked it. This came from John Spina...and he's one of the best.

I had a TPS issue with my car a few years back...and I had smoked something in the ECM.
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: ss/gn on October 12 2016, 08:35:53 PM
It sounds like it is starting on the fuel pump prime circuit and the pump is not running after the key goes from start to the run position?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: Steve Wood on October 12 2016, 10:08:58 PM
Kevin, he says it will run if he unplugs the maf or the iac...so that seems to suggest it will run on the limp home mode....Brad may well be right that it is an ecm problem...only strange thing is that it will run on either...but, maybe it is going to the calpac and ignoring the ecm?
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: ss/gn on October 13 2016, 08:42:33 AM
Ooops didn't see that. :icon_eyes: I would be checking grounds carefully then. Thanks Steve
Title: Re: starts an dies
Post by: 1 RARE T on October 13 2016, 09:48:49 AM
Dave,

You know if you want it running, I'm your man. Call me.  :rock:
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