IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on August 01 2016, 12:23:17 PM
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Hello guys! I should get the last of my parts tomorrow. Been educating myself as much as possible on this project. My question is does this sound like a good plan. I was going to put in 6 quarts of Valvoline and one bottle of Lucas engine break-in oil additive with new filter. Cross my fingers that it fires up and runs well, and run it at 2000 RPM's, moving up to 2500 every 5 minuets for a minuet, for 25 minuets. Dump that oil out, put in fresh oil and my usual ZDDP, new filter and drive as usual.
Please let me now if this sounds ok. Also what weight oil would be best for break-in? Was going to use 10W40 but don't know what to use, no place really says???
Thanks again!!!
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FT cam? Is it already installed?
If not you could slap some of this on the lobes and bottom of lifters for extra insurance.
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-153/overview/ (https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-153/overview/)
My 464 FT cam in my GS was broke in on it and 15/40 break in oil. 20 minutes or so up and down on the rpm a few times. Dropped the oil, installed new oil and filter, then thrashed the shit out of it on the dyno. This was in '07........was out in it Saturday night and she runs like the day it was built. :)
Good luck shimy!!!
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I would run Joe Gibbs break in oil instead of regular oil plus an additive
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Does it matter which weight??
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I would use 5-30
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Anybody have a link to the instructions for setting the cam sensor??
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Found it on Steve's site, seem's pretty straight forward using a volt-meter.
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Got it all torn down this morning. Well the previous owner had installed a double roller timing set and new tensioner. The tensioner has about 1/16 inch wear in it. I don't see the point of replacing the timing set, just the tensioner. Thoughts??
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I'd run with what's in there. Have you dropped the pan before? Might have a bunch of the old nylon timing sprocket piece restricting flow to the pickup .
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Get a pic of the chain some are not meant to have a tensioner
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I'll get a pic tonight. That's funny, I was on the phone with a reputable vendor today and he told me not to use the tensioner with the double roller chain also. Seems like it was pretty loose without it when I removed them this morning. How can you tell which ones don't need tensioner??
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note the back of the chain one is smooth the other is not.
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A prime example of why I use a stock style chain and tensioner setup. Of course, it's not cool...and it works mint. Two reasons not to use it, I suppose.
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My chain looks like the no tensioner one, the previous owner was using the tensioner. I'll be leaving it off. The shop I was talking to this morning, don't know if we are supposed to name vendors here, so I'll just say Jack said not to use it and that it wouldn't be noisy and I didn't need it with that chain that was in there. Just seems like to much play without it but what do I know :icon_eyes:
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Been reading up on this issue, seems the problem is some double rollers stretched out retarding timing. Seems I dodged a bullet with this one having the tensioner installed and not eating it to the point of destruction. The timing set I got is from comp cams, I would think it would be of pretty good quality so I think I'm going to install it, no tensioner. Anyone have this set installed??
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What cam did you go with?
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206/206 from TA Performance
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A prime example of why I use a stock style chain and tensioner setup. Of course, it's not cool...and it works mint. Two reasons not to use it, I suppose.
Amen
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Couldnt get a stock type set-up....no one had one in stock that I tried
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TA had none? AutoZone zilch? I would have sworn Rock would have had them
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TA was out of them, they had the cam tho...Rock also struck out..didnt try the zone, did try napa and auto value here in town...no luck, Cotton performance had the comp timing set-up and the arp head bolts I needed. I saw on the other board you said you ran a double roller in your car, post was 2004. Did it give you problems? Feel like im kinda stuck with it
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Got mine over the counter from some shit ass parts place around the corner from Dans shop. :)
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TA was out of them, they had the cam tho...Rock also struck out..didnt try the zone, did try napa and auto value here in town...no luck, Cotton performance had the comp timing set-up and the arp head bolts I needed. I saw on the other board you said you ran a double roller in your car, post was 2004. Did it give you problems? Feel like im kinda stuck with it
I run a double roller on a roller cam that has a cam sprocket that requires a double roller. The first one stretched and was slapping the timing cover in 2000 miles. I then bought a Roll Master which cost over a hundred bucks and so far it has been okay.
Rollmaster is one of the best chains out there and is not made in China.
Double roller chains are normally used in higher rpm engines with lots of valve spring tension...the opposite of our engines.
Many double rollers will chew up the tensioner and throw metal thru the oiling system and then they stretch and retard the cam timing as well as sometimes hitting the cover and setting off the knock sensor.
Some will argue that some chains don't chew the tensioner but I have not seen one with my own eyes that was made for our tensioners...m ight be
I sent you to TA because I know they are selling US made Johnson lifters with the hardened bases like GM originally used and not the crap that a lot of cam manufacturers sell that often do not survive the break in period. Hopefully the more reputable cam companies are now selliing them instead of the soft based chinese junk.
I should state that I am not a vendor and don't have any reason to sell stuff that is not needed.
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Guess ill call ta again tomorrow and see if they got any in yet. I dont want to have to take this apart again!!
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000NGL1YU/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470317594&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=9-1134+cloyes (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000NGL1YU/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470317594&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=9-1134+cloyes)
I thought these were a decent set.
I bought the sealed power set off rockauto. Not in the car yet but ot was cheap.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=117881&cc=1020957&jnid=433&jpid=0 (http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=117881&cc=1020957&jnid=433&jpid=0)
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Found a Stock timing set at Car Quest, solid USA MFG, SA Gear. Price was great also!! relieved I was able to get the stock set-up!!
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What should I torque the ARP head bolts to, Cottons told me 80 lbs, the ARP box says 70 lbs???? Also should I use the thread sealer under the washers at the bolt head along with it the threads??
Thanks!!
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Most torque the head bolts 10 over like Cotton suggested. I wouldn't put sealant under the washer, no need as long as you have them on the threads.
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so is that 10 over using arp's thread lube, or is that using oil on the threads?
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I need so use thread sealant so im assuming 80 with the thread sealant. It also says to put thread lubricant between the bolt head and washer.
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you use thread sealant on the end that screws in the block. You use the thread lubricant on the end that the nut screws on to and yes, you use the lube on the washer and nut bottom
So, do people use thread lubricant and torque the head down to 80 or is that if you use oil instead of the lube....? I think most go 80 with the lube but I am not sure about that
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Run a tap through the heads. Clean the heads and block with brake kleen...and then with electrical contact cleaner. Install the studs with your favorite sealant. Lube the washers and the base of the nuts and torque the heads down in sequence. I go to 85 in three increments. 30-60-85. I recheck the next day.
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Just what I did except my torque wrench only goes to 80 :D
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Borrow or rent a better torque wrench
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you use thread sealant on the end that screws in the block. You use the thread lubricant on the end that the nut screws on to and yes, you use the lube on the washer and nut bottom
So, do people use thread lubricant and torque the head down to 80 or is that if you use oil instead of the lube....? I think most go 80 with the lube but I am not sure about that
Well said, Steve! You don't want friction from metal on metal. I just got off of night shift so I was only focused on sealant and not lube.
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It's a confusing subject. people throw out numbers without specifying bolts, studs, oil for lube, ARP lube (which requires less torque than does oil), etc.
I remember carefully torquing chevy head bolts using Permatex Aviation sealant on the threads...bet that messed the number up!
I think using studs makes it a much easier task of getting even torque because we are not dealing with the ease of threading bolts into the block with sealant on the end...and of course, we know that the fine threads on a stud makes it easier to get an easy clamp and we don't run nearly the chance of pulling threads up in the block surface...
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Okay, I'll be more specific. I didn't wanna say this...but I use black RTV. It's the only one up here on the package that says oil and anifreeze resistant. There were huge fights on TBS about colour not making any difference...w hich is prolly correct. Let the fighting begin...but I'm not answering back. Oil I use is whatever Dan and I have laying around the shop...and I use ARP stud kits. I use electrical contact cleaner cuz I have it on good authority that brake kleen leaves a film.
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You are absolutely correct on the rtv. It's all made for different purposes
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Funny, I use Mopar brand non-chlorinated brake cleaner as a final step before I paint anything, before assembling parts which seal to a gasket or goop, and I also use it to clean before welding too. I have never had any adhesion issues from surface contamination.
To each their own.
For sealing fasteners into water jackets I have always used pipe dope (or Teflon thread sealant), and a touch of oil under the head/washer for the important torque specs.
EDIT: I meant to add that there is a really good and harmless way to chase threads in a block by using a stock head bolt with a couple of grooves cut in its threads to catch the trash. Using a tap can be devastating to the threads, especially in an aluminum block.
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That's the reason they sell thread chaser traps
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Coat what ever with some grease to catch the chips.
I bought a set like these from summit years ago.
http://mrotools.com/2588-kastar-metric-thread-restorer-tap-6-piece-set.aspx?gclid=CPGghcqWsM4CFQ6IaQodpmkOSg (http://mrotools.com/2588-kastar-metric-thread-restorer-tap-6-piece-set.aspx?gclid=CPGghcqWsM4CFQ6IaQodpmkOSg)
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Update..got the old cam out and compaired to new...exhaust lobes are the same, intake is bigger on new cam and new timing chain is nice and snug. It appears that when the timing marks are in line cylinder 1 is at the top of the compression stroke??? Took alot of time marking tdc on the balancer but dont have that back on yet.
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Ok got a question. Been way over thinking this as im very concerened that i get a good start up for cam break in. If cylinder one is at tdc and both valves are closed that is top of compression stroke....righ t??? Also to mark 25 degrees after tdc, facing the car I make amark on the balancer 1.45 inches to the right, or clockwise from my tdc mark?
Thanks for the help....my brain has spent way too much time going over and over this so now im second guessing too much
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no
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/cam_sensor.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/cam_sensor.htm)
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Can you elaborate?
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I did. Read the second bullet point
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I read it again, so everything I said was right except that the 1.45 mark is to the left, or ccw from the tdc mark?? And another question, the last thing I'm going to do before initial start up is set the cam sensor. Just before that I was going to prime the oil system, I made a tool to spin up the pump. My question is will this wash a lot of the assembly lube off the new cam and lifters??
Again probably overthinking this
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no...one of the reasons I told you to use break in oil instead of an additive
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I got some Valvoline racing oil for break-in 20/50....says it has added zinc for flat tappet cams, was also going to put is a bottle of Lucas engine break-in additive or is that to much?
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Not what I told you to use...I suggested Joe Gibbs break in oil...you gotta do what you want to...all I can do is offer advice
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I would run Joe Gibbs break in oil instead of regular oil plus an additive
Does it matter which weight??
I would use 5-30
This is the reason I am considering no more posts on bulletin boards...It's a total waste of time
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I got this because I could get it local. I do appreciate your advice alot but I'm sure you can relate to this issue, I didnt order the Gibbs because I was getting sick of the shipping cost for all this stuff. I've got over $100 in just shipping. Also every place you talk to has a different opinion on the oil. A local race engine builder, Dave Adams racing, been doing it for over 30 years, guys come from all over the US to buy his motors for their dirt track cars. Anyway I see him around town a lot and he was talking to me at a car show so I was talking about this and he recommended the Valvoline oil and an additive, said it was what they used for all their break ins. TA performance had a different suggestion, and Cottons performance had yet another. All of these people, yourself included, are very knowledgeable, so in the end I'm not ignoring your advice, I cant count the times you have helped me out, but this time I considered what everyone had said and picked the stuff that I could get local. In the end I just want to get the job done correctly. I'm not an engine builder so I probably ask a lot of stupid questions.
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I would run Joe Gibbs break in oil instead of regular oil plus an additive
Does it matter which weight??
I would use 5-30
This is the reason I am considering no more posts on bulletin boards...It's a total waste of time
Just because the op doesn't use you advice doesn't mean posting is a giant waste of time. There is no way to know how many others read and take your advice. You have vast knowledge and I really appreciate you taking the time to share with us.
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Rich...when a guy asks you a lot of questions and then does exactly opposite of what you told him...that's okay. It seems strange that he would do the opposite and not bother to ask you why your advice is completely different from what he is doing.
I am sure that he will be ok as long as he bought the good lifters and I am sure he is taking advice from a well experienced Buick engine man since he did not ask for clarification.
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While I doubt I've doled out a quarter the advice you have I do know few seem to take what it tell them about doing a 2004r. They mostly want to spend a lot of money. Not sure why. I guess if I was selling stuff it would make sense but I just do the budget thing and get by.
I am still glad you frequent and give your advice.
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Ok ill bite, why is your advice different? Also I would say ive done 99% of what you have offered for advice exactly like you have said....all appreciated very much.......but can you see the point of my last post? I would say Jack Cotton knows a thing or 2 about buick engines also so I asked him too. Im not an engine builder so I ask questions of people that know what they are doing....like you also.... and then I try to move forward to get this thing fixed. I picked this oil because 2 reputable engine guys ( jack and local guy) said it was a good choice and it was all on a store shelf here with none of the shipping cost and more convienent. I wasnt trying to slight you or ignore your advice but it seems I have pissed you off??? If I have then I guess I screwed myself because, as I said before, you have helped me countless times with this car. Can u see why I deviated from your advice on this one choice?
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Sure
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He read my sig lol.....
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Ok ill bite, why is your advice different? Also I would say ive done 99% of what you have offered for advice exactly like you have said....all appreciated very much.......but can you see the point of my last post? I would say Jack Cotton knows a thing or 2 about buick engines also so I asked him too. Im not an engine builder so I ask questions of people that know what they are doing....like you also.... and then I try to move forward to get this thing fixed. I picked this oil because 2 reputable engine guys ( jack and local guy) said it was a good choice and it was all on a store shelf here with none of the shipping cost and more convienent. I wasnt trying to slight you or ignore your advice but it seems I have pissed you off??? If I have then I guess I screwed myself because, as I said before, you have helped me countless times with this car. Can u see why I deviated from your advice on this one choice?
It isn't you. Steve is on a short fuse these days - some reasons are very justifiable (especially when dealing with me) and I don't blame him for feeling the way he does when he takes the time to offer help. You will just have to live with the choices you've made and will have to learn from them if your experience is less than ideal.
And don't get me started on the price of shipping. I am reconsidering my participation in this hobby until our dollar recovers.
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It's painfully obvious the OP is a novice...and he readily admits it. Steve was merely giving him the best possible advice to break this cam in without it burning a lobe. Most engine builders are clueless about the cam failure issue these particular engines present.
Like Steve, I give the best possible advice. 99 percent do the complete opposite of what I tell them...and then go to those who haven't got a clue...and then complain to me their car's a turd. I've come to the conclusion that most enjoy struggling. It's tough to watch...but I've become accustomed to it.
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Like Steve, I too have contemplated not posting anymore Yes, im a novice. If my questions got to painful sorry but I thought thats what these forums were for. I am an active poster on a snowmoble forum as I have raced and wrenched on them for 30 years. I dont get the " painful novice" tag....people come to forums for help or If they have questions, If I didnt want to help them I wouldnt, but If they listen to my advice or not, I dont get attitude with them.
As far a doing the complete opposite, look back at the thread. I have beat this to death...I have taken 99% of the advice here and followed to the letter, I took Jack Cottons advice on the oil and got major attitude back??? I would have to say he know buicks. Also, im fairly certian any flat tappet cam is broken in the same....im curious whats so special about a buick?
Anyway, as I have also said ....ALOT.....I do appreciate any help I recieve here. I dont know how else I could make my appreciation any clearer.
Rant over :cheers:
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Some Buick guys just like to talk trash, that's all it is.
Let nothing offend you Shimy. Surriously.
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Got it back together tonight and completed break in. Ran a little rough the first 10 seconds but then smoothed out and sounded real good, after the 20 min run it idled down smooth as silk. Will dump the oil tommorrow, refill and new filter and take for a spin, fingers crossed that it continues to sound good.
Thanks for the help :cheers:
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Glad it went well :cheers:
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Whoo Hoooo
Glad it went well 😊
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Dropped the oil this morning, have a magnetic plug and wiped it with white cloth and it was pretty good, some dust to make cloth grey but that was it so I think im good.....cant wait to drive it!!!!!! Did have a no start issue with cam sensor location but re set it and she fired up....was worried about that hurting cam but seem to be good...I hope. :icon_eyes:
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Keep us in the loop sounds like your on the right track.
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Good news!
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Good for you! Glad it's back up and running!
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Well the maiden voyage was a little shaky. Fired it up and it made an terrible clank/rattle for a few seconds. Got out to look it over, was shaking a bit, but noise stopped so I figured run her. Took off and was ok but didn't feel smooth. went about a mile and stopped again to look it over. Still shaking so I revved it up some and all good on increasing RPM but clicking and rough on let off. Drove it 2-3 more miles and still wasn't right but a bit better. Got home and listened everywhere with stethoscope... .nothing obvious. Revved it up and it would do it on decreasing rpms? Was fearing the worst so just walked away for a while. :013: Came back later and started checking things.
The little fan for the intercooler was just nicking the angle plate that mounts the intercooler on the passenger side. Took fan off and fired it up....sounds great, runs smooth as silk!!! And best of all that annoying lifter tick I have always hated is long gone :rock: Don't think that fan does much but I'm going to notch that plate and reinstall the fan.
Weird that it hits now but easy fix :icon_lol:
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The intercooler fan is only good for putting a groove in your intercooler. LOL!
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Plus the weight savings
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Thought about this on the way to work, don't think I'm going to reinstall it. The only time I can see it being very useful would be at very low speed and the temp drop with it compared to without it cant be much if any. At track speed the scoop is forcing enough air to make it a non factor.
Issue has probably been beaten to death elsewhere :icon_eyes:
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What? No!
Adjust your intercooler brackets and leave the fan on the cah.
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What? No!
Adjust your intercooler brackets and leave the fan on the cah.
I agree........n ot sure why some people are so quick to just toss the factory stuff aside, but to each there own. I mean it's plastic, how heavy can it be.
Try putting a piece of paper in front of the IC while the car is at idle and see what happens.
Now, as for racing, how fast/hard is it pulling air through the intercooler at 4-5k?? I would think quite a bit. How fast are you going 1-2.......not that fast mph wise but your rpm'ing pretty good and yanking alot of air through the IC via that "crappy" little fan.
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Had it out again tonight for a 10 mile spin...sounds great! Should I wait to get some miles on the new cam and the valve job before putting heavy boost to it....24lbs, I guess heavy boost is a relative term :D
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Had it out again tonight for a 10 mile spin...sounds great! Should I wait to get some miles on the new cam and the valve job before putting heavy boost to it....24lbs, I guess heavy boost is a relative term :D
Have you retorqued the head and intake bolts after a couple of heat cycles? Some may disagree...
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Didnt retouque....di dnt want to mess with sealant on threads on head bolts
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I don't think you are supposed to retorque ARPs...
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I retroqued the the studs when I did mine. That is why I use that Indian head stuff as it takes quite a while for it to harden up.
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My understanding is stock type composite do not require a re-torque steel shim or coppers do.