IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: TurboCajun on January 18 2016, 09:08:38 PM
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Went to the track Sunday made one pass and the engine has a knock, Saturday I installed the new TR6 module with new coil pack and put a 66mm turbo on the car and added slicks, The car hooked good and started moving to the wall so I had to pedal, go on it again and it got loose. after looking at the log I pedal 3 times before the 1/8 and never went full throttle after the first pedal.. I guess I got nervous with the slicks making the car wavy. went 11.75 @ 108 not a bad time for pedaling so much and not pushing the pedal to the floor. now on the return road I heard a ticking on the motor and by the time I got back to my truck it was knocking and missing. got back home and pulled the pass side valve cover and the #4 exhaust rocker stud had backed out half way, I inspected the push rod and rocker and they looked good so I bolted it back in and went for a test, it seemed to be fine but once I got into it the car was back firing so I parked it. so I will to compression test and leak down test to check for a bent valve.
Question are 7mm wires big enough for the TR6
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they should be...personall y, I always use the largest diameter that I can find...8.5 or 10, but I don't think they are required. I just liike the look :)
I don;t think the TR6 provides more spark...it just looks trick and cost more than a house payment
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TR6 uses 8.5
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the reason I purchased the TR6 was back in November the car started back firing and it stopped as soon as I the spare coil pack on, It did good for a couple of months them started acting up again so I got the TR6 to utilize the new style coil pack and have the rev limiter for safety.
tonight I did a compression test and all cyl where 160-170 psi. after that I did a leak down test and all had 20-25 percent, which is in the green on the tester. I am not sure if that is too much.
So now it has me thinking that I have an ignition issue :icon_confused:
and I still haven't figured out why I have oil being pushed out the breathers, pcv grommet, bolts for the valve covers, and valve cover gaskets. Maybe its the 20-25 % leaks in the cyl.
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Keith, 25% is very bad on a performance engine and is worse on a turbo engine. Most leak down testers seem to use 100 psi for input pressure altho I have seen some that use 80 psi.
First thing we do is to listen at the tail pipes for a leak, then listen at the plenum for a leak, and finally at the pvc valve opening. If we have a major leak past the valves, we should be able to hear air coming thru the exhaust or back thru the plenum.
If the rings are not sealing, we will probably hear the air coming out of the bottom of the engine thru the pvc valve.
It's very important that the leak down test be conducted with the piston at the top of the cylinder and on tdc so that both valves are closed. Some people take a short cut by removing the rocker arms and letting the pistons get blown down to the bottom of the cylinder. As the combustion process is occurs with the piston near the top of the cylinder, that is where the ring seal has to be good.
With all the blow by, it sounds like the rings are not sealed...BUT, if the intake is not well sealed to the heads, you will pressurize the crankcase thru the valley so that means two ways to get blow by-past the rings, or at the intake gasket.
Also, not all leakdown testers are good at being accurate.
The reason that 25% is extra bad on a turbo engine is that we are using 100 psi to see how much air leaks. On a turbo engine under boost, the cylinder pressure can be in the 1000 psi range so the leakage can be much worse than we would normally expect.
As far as the miss goes, it makes me wonder if a head gasket is giving up the ghost under load...and that should be the fourth was for air to escape.
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Oh, yeah, if the rings are stuck or the gaps are all lined up, this will increase blow by
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Steve the leak tester is a cheap one from harbor freight, to zero it out it only took 10 psi them it was plugged into the cyl, the only place I heard air was at the oil dip stick tube
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Those have a bad reputation but if you heard air at the dip stick, it's not good. Still, I would look for a better tester
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Did you put some oil in the cylinder and try the test again? Might bring it up some than we would know it is the rings.
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That is a good time with all things considered. How much boost, timing and octane did you use? Hope you get all your issues figured out! :cheers:
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Used another leak down tester today, for some reason his would not seal tight in the head so there was some leakage at the connection . All 6 cyl were at 20% , so of that 20% some was thru the treads for the spark plugs and the rest was coming thru the valve cover breathers .
forzfed
93 octane, 24psi , 18 degrees top gear timing, with meth
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sure is sounding like the rings are not sealing to me
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do you hear air out of the covers on all cylinders?
Trying to envision if blown hgs would allow air back into the valve covers-but if the dipstick is blowing out, then the pressure has to be getting into the crankcase
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It seemed like it was coming from the covers and the dip stick tube
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looks like you are going to have to pull the engine and go thru it to me at this point
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Steve don't say things like that.
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sorry, but if combustion pressure is blowing past the rings and blowing oil out the breathers and dip stick tube, I don't know what else to guess :)
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Probably washed the rings down - ask me how I know :O
Or you could put a can of engine restorer in it :rofl:
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Probably washed the rings down - ask me how I know :O
Or you could put a can of engine restorer in it :rofl:
True story. One of the GTA guys...and I won't say who...couldn't get his TR engine started. He ground away on the starter trying. I told the person telling me this that if he keeps it up he'll take the rings out of it. Sure enuf, I get a call from the owner of the TR. Not sure if he said it was going through oil...oil out the breathers etc. Anyway, I ask him to run a compression check on it. I get a call a couple of hours later saying the cylinder pressures are way low. Moral of the story is this. Don't keep twisting the key staring at the heavens looking for divine intervention to start the engine. Find out WHY it won't start. It's things like this that drive me right around the bend. :icon_eyes:
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I think Keith said his compression numbers were not too bad...but his leak down numbers are on the high side and air is coming out of the valve covers and the dipstick...whe n running it is blowing oil out...
A bad intake can do this...but when doing a leak down test, there should be no air going anywhere but the cylinder
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ok used a third leak down tester and it seal good at the spark plug holes and all the cyl were right around 10-12% , called the builder and came up with it maybe the intake or a bad pcv, I order the good one from RJC i just need to change my grommet for it to fit. In the meantime i put it back together and went for a ride, its missing and backfiring still, I set the scan master to VOLTs and low and behold the voltage is freaking out. it actually went to 0.0 then 5.5 on the scan master. I tried to data log but for some reason it did not save the file. now with the voltage drop the fuel pressure never dropped, and i did not notice any dimming of lights in the car. so I have an electrical issue that needs correcting. :013: I will leave the intake alone for now until I get the voltage issue fixed. let me explain, back in oct 2015 the week before cruising the coast the car started to backfire, I notice then that the volts were getting low so once at CTC I got a 200amp alt. from a fellow GN owner and we put it on the car, the volts stayed steady with the change, so I am thinking that was the problem . A week later back at home it backfired on me again, I would get in the car start it and the light near the ECM would blink and the fuel pressure would pulse with the blink, so I had a spare coil pack and put is on and it seemed to solve the problem, one month later it starts the same shit, blinking light and pulsing FP, that is when I decided to get the TR6 setup. Everything seemed fine after the install until the day at the track, once I got back home and fixed the loose rocker, went for a test ride and the backfire is back. i have a gremlin that doesn't show his face all the time, It's driving me crazy.
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another thing at one point i rev the engine in the garage and as it idled down it shut off , I cranked it back up and it gave me the code 42. but it has not happened again.
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It's a Paul Harvey moment...and now, the rest of the story!
Think I already mentioned intake gasket and pcv above. Pcv is easy, pull it out, pull it off and plug the hose from the plenum block. If the blow by goes away, that was the problem. Or you can look at it, shake it, and blow about 25 psi of air thru it and see it blows out the engine side with any volume.
First thing you need to do is stop buying stuff without having a reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If your voltage was dropping and acting crazy on the SM, then simply check the voltage coming out of the back of the alternator with a volt meter. One probe on the battery terminal on the back of the alternator and the other probe on the alternator case as a ground. If the voltage is good at that point, you don't have a problem with the alternator. Simple, cheap, and the old alternator probably has better parts in it then these chinese conversion 200 amp jobs.
If the alternator checks good, then you go to the battery and read the voltage at the battery. It should read very close to the same as you got at the alternator back. If not, you have a problem in the circuit between the alternator and the battery-either in the cable to the positive terminal or in the ground connection between the alternator case and the engine OR someone forgot to connect the ground cable to the engine block from the battery, or it is loose.
If the battery reads the same as the alternator, check the small ground wire going to the inner fender sheet metal to be sure it is right, and then go to the starter and make sure the battery cable and fusible links are connected tightly to the starter. Makes sure none of those wires is grounding out against the pipes or anything else when the engine moves.
While under the hood, make sure the orange fusible link from the positive terminal does not have an intermittent connection to the battery and the voltage coming out of the plug connector is the same as the battery voltage.
If that checks out, go to A6 (pink/black) on the ecm and see if it is reading very close to what the alternator was putting out with the engine running and that it is steady and not jumping around like the SM display is doing. If it looks good, check C16 (orange) to see if the voltage is steady on it as well.
If both of those are good, I might try another ecm after I was sure that neither A6 and C16 wires are not loose in the ecm connectors. I would also check the grounds to the back of the head or wherever they have been relocated are tight and none of the wires going to the terminal are loose or broken. http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ecmwiring.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ecmwiring.htm)
If the voltages are flaky in the two wires when you check them, then we need to back up in the circuit and find out where the problem is.
I would hope the code 42 is being caused by the flaky voltages....
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Succinct, Beautiful and Logical
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Steve makes it sound so easy, i hate wiring and electrical issues!
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So do I, but you have to be methodical and check it all :)
the worst problems to troubleshoot for me are lighting issues...all it takes is a bad ground or some clown putting in a single filament bulb in a double filament socket....
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:013: I went thru all what you said Steve in the order you gave, all grounds are good, no voltage drop at the Bat. when I got to the ECM I checked there and all was good until I move the wires on the harness, the car sputters, i keep playing with it and it keeps acting up , so I got out the other ECM put the power logger on and it stopped, went for a ride and still the same voltage is dropping when I get into the gas. came back and took the battery out and had it tested GOOD, put the spare Alt in still the same shit. I got the code 42 again. last test run it was dark and I noticed the lights dimmed alot when I stepped on the gas.
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okay, may be more than one problem.
So, first you need to find out why things act up when you move the harness. Are you talking about the harness going to the ecm connectors?
If so, then it sounds like a loose wire in one of the connectors. Did you wiggle the wires individually-particularly the two that I told you to check the voltage on?
Also, when you finish that, drop the column down and wiggle the ignition switch to see if that makes the voltage drop.
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I did check every wire one at a time , that is why I changed the ECM because the problem only happened when I moved the connector but it did not happen after I changed the ECM
Steve it seems to me like something is drawing down the volts when I gas it.
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If it misses when you move the wires, you have a problem somewhere in the harness. Moving the harness should not draw the volts down. That sounds like another problem.
That problem usually happens when the engine shifts and something shorts out. that was the reason I told you to check the battery cable near the starter and to check the fusible links where they run past the exhaust pipe on the way up toward the wring harness where it crosses the firewall behind the coil packs. When you look at the passenger end of the harness, you can see the wires that drop down to the starter and fusible links.
The power wire that goes to A6 comes from the ignition switch on the column http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm)
If you wiggle the wiring harness under the hood where the wires go down to the starter, does any thing change? If you grab the harness on the drivers side where it goes into the firewall and wiggle it, does anything change?
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I will do some more checking tomorrow on the harness,
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Because you say the lights dimmed, it sounds like a short, or loose connection, in the battery cable because the lights have their own fusible link. A big drop in the voltage will make the car miss. The ignition comes from a different fusible link than the lights...so, again, it sounds like the problem is before the fusible bundle.
Be that it may, you should not be able to move the wiring harness under the dash and make the car miss-that is the reason I said it may be more than one problem.
Many times in the past, we have seen cars cut out when the battery cable shorted against something when the motor rolls over under acceleration.
A short causes a major voltage draw.
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I went over all the wires, pulled, played and checked all the routing and it did nor did I see anything. I am lost. guess I may try the old module and coil. ? would the crank sensor get week under load. I looked at a log last night and the volts drop to 12. 4 but it seems that the voltage drop is after the backfire, but maybe its just reading slower than when it happens. on a test today I just went part throttle and as the boost builds you can feel the car start missing. another one of my long winded treads
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Okay....I am really confused...doe s the car miss when you move the wiring harness? I have never seen a car that is running properly miss when you move the harness but I have seen quite a few that missed when you moved the harness and there was a wiring problem. If it only did that once, maybe it was just a coincidence.
You keep talking about a voltage drop like something is pulling the voltage down but now you says the voltage drops after it misses which is entirely possible if the engine cuts out for a second. Now 12.4 v is not a sign of anything pulling the voltage down, it is a sign that the engine stopped for a millisecond and alternator was no longer charger for a short time until the engine starts again so you see the battery voltage for a split second, or the circuit that went bad-came good again.
I asked you to wiggle the ignition switch so I assumed that made no difference on the voltage being displayed by the scantool-that voltage is often wrong anyway as it is a digital conversion made inside of the ecm from the analog voltage coming in on A6. I connected a voltmeter directly to that wire so I can compare it to what the scanmaster/pl is displaying. I am seeing 14 volts on the meter when the PL sometimes drops to 12.9 or so. I believe the meter.
The factory ignition module gets two power feeds from the ecm-ign fuse and the ccci fuse. I have seen problems with the fuse socket terminals being corroded and the voltage going thru them in normal driving, bu when a load is placed on the engine, the voltage drops due to the corrosion on the terminals that will not flow enuf current to sustain the load...this causes the module to not fire the coils properly. I always try to clean the fuse blocks terminals to make sure this is not a problem. I have connected a meter to those two wires going to the module connector to see if voltage was dropping on them while someone else monitors the alternator output voltage.
And numerous times, I have seen the coil pak not making good contact with the mounting bracket due to paint, powder coat, loose bolts, etc. I usually run a ground strap to the firewall to make sure the module is well grounded-cause the car will miss like a bandit if the ground path is not solid at this point,.
The crank sensor is a hall -effect sensor and my experience is that they tend to work or not work assuming the sensor is mounted with the reluctor blades on the damper passing thru the correct slot on the sensor and properly adjusted. It is always a good idea to have someone lay under the car and watch the damper to see if the crank is moving back and forth in the block while someone revs the gas...even better if the car is in drive and foot firmly on the brake to keep from running over the guy doing the watching. Usually, I use a timing light and watch the damper from the top for movement. Anyway, if the damper is moving forward or backward as a little load is added to the engine, that will make it miss.
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I am not trying to confuse you Steve, I am the one that my head is spinning,
the engine does not miss when I move the wires, the only time it did was when I move the connector at the ECM and I changed the ECM and it stopped.
on one test run I seen the volts drop to 0.0 and 5.5 on the scan master and on that run i did not get a log because the power logger did not save the file. on other runs I see the volts drop to low 12s and on the one that I did get a log the volts look to drop after the backfire "on the log"
the one thing that I did not check was the ignition switch, my back told me not to even try that today, so maybe tomorrow I will get under the dash or have my son do it. I will send all day under the dash if i have to, to make sure everything is in order.
I also have an extra ground wire on the module
I also noticed earlier that my fuel pressure gauge pulses with the signal light on, it is faint but it does
I will also put my old module and pack on tomorrow.
I have to fix this its driving me crazy.
Steve thanks for your patience I know I am not the easiest person to help.
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To me, the problem is obvious. The car is losing voltage momentarily. What is not obvious is where the problem lies. :D
It all runs thru the ignition switch is why I suggested checking it. Easy to check; use the link I gave you. Remove the sound insulator panel under the dash-two screws under the front edge at the ends, and one stud at the accelerator pedal in the back. Remove the two nuts that hold the steering column up just behind the dash. Drop the column down and the switch is readily available as per the link. Crank the car up, set the SM to voltage and wiggle the switch while watching for the voltage to change. I sympathize with you on the back. I have been cripple for several weeks now.
The fuses in the fuse block often do this but yours is cutting off almost completely so they are not as high on my guess list as the column.
I would not be surprised to find the TR8 causing it but you said it was happening before switching it in. Be sure to examine the connector and make sure that none of the wires are loose in the connector and that none of the pins in the connector are pushed back so they are not making good connection when the connector is attached.
I have seen batteries that were intermittent but the problem only came into play when trying to start the car. When the alternator is working, the problem is hidden.
If it were me, I would have probably already jumped the entire harness with jumpers coming off the harness going straight to the ecm and module bypassing the key, etc., but, I don't want to try to explain how LOL
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This morning I started early, got under the dash and pulled the switch out and cleaned the terminals, removed every fuse wiggle and replaced. voltage drop at the switch when move the wires around was 0.3 volts. after cleaning the terminals it would drop 0.2 volts. I also decided to put the old coil and module back on. I stripped the power coat from every place the a bolt went thru. and the car DID NOT backfire, DID NOT miss, and as I looked at the logs ( i made two different ones) the first log volts stayed right at 13 volts, that was a third gear pull, the second log volts dropped to 11.7 that was a second gear pull and I think that the fans had come on.
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Get your son to clean those two fixed terminals
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well went for another ride and after a few hits and the car warmed up really good it started backfiring again .
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Fuse terminals, I meant.
Is the fuel pressure holding?
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fuel pressure holds good, this damn thing runs so good at idle and normal driving, I have gone over all the grounds again,
1) could it be a bad MAF or translator
2) could it have anything to do with the Electronic spark module
I will post the logs to see if you can see something i am missing, the first one the volts stayed at 13, the second one they dropped to 11, he car did not back fire on these runs, when it did back fire again i was not logging
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if the maf reads 255 at wot throttle under boost, then it is okay. I would prefer a real voltage instead of the one from the PL but unfortunately, I don't think there is anyway to record actual voltage on the PL.
I don't think it has anything to do with the esm but that is somewhat uncharted territory in my experience.
with regard to blow by, did you ever check the pcv?
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maf reading stay 255, i have not checked the pcv yet but I know that it does let air thru it, that is why I ordered the one from RJC . when I get a chance I will hard wire my meter to the battery with long leads to get into the car and have someone ride with me to watch the volts.
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after that, assuming the voltage stays steady, connect it to the pink/black wire going to A6 and see if it stays steady....
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did not do anything today, had to get a hair cut and cut grass on Feb,. 1