IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on September 28 2015, 10:39:51 AM
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Ok for the racers here, I'm confused and need help. You can see in my sig what car has. Running 24 lbs. boost with alky. Settings on TT chip are 129 on timing ( aggressive mode) and over all fueling set at 109, getting 789 on SM at end of track. First gear fueling set at 115, was down to 113 but was getting slight knock so went back up to 115. I think the car is tuned as good as I can get it with a margin of safety with just the SM. Maybe could get a little more aggressive with high gear fueling but don't want to hurt it.
Here's question, last time out with not quite as fine a tune, it went 12.5 at 108.34, 60 foot time of 1.904, 88.64 MPH at the 1/8th. This time out it was a bit warmer and went 12.993 at 107.02, 60 ft of 2.074, 86.46 mph at the 1/8.
I'm on street tires and they put a generous amount of sticky on the track. First numbers, I was leaving with about 4-5 lbs of boost, no tire spin. This time I pushed it up to 6-7 lbs at launch and spun just a bit, very little.
I don't know so I'm asking. If I get drag radials I don't think it will help because even with my tires I'm not spinning much, if at all. car feels like it comes on pretty strong after the 60 ft but I cant get it to launch hard. And I don't think the brakes will hold at the line with much more than 7lbs?
I think the stall on my converter is about 2400-2500, is that with the larger turbo killing my holeshot?
Looking for any advice.....Tha nks!
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I busted a 60 foot time of 1.59 on MT ET streets, foot brake launch with somewhere in the low teens on boost. Had to play with the air pressure to get a solid contact patch. 13 psi cold was at 15 psi after the burn out. Not sure about the other brands but those tires worked well for me. Suspension set up is another thing to figure into the equation
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How in hell did your cars brakes hold that much boost? What stall converter do you run?
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3000 stall on the converter. Aluminum drums with both long shoes installed on front and rear. You have to buy two sets of shoes. Also have the S-10 wheel cylinder which has the bigger diameter.
I feel that I had that car set up pretty good suspension, tranny and brake wise... Just didn't make the power. Power will be solved over the winter but I'll be starting over with the suspension on my limited
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I'll see what I can dig up from a few years ago when I finally broke into the 11s. I am pretty sure I did a 1.7 60' time on my low profile Nitto DRs (not that 555R junk).
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I busted a 60 foot time of 1.59 on MT ET streets, foot brake launch with somewhere in the low teens on boost. Had to play with the air pressure to get a solid contact patch. 13 psi cold was at 15 psi after the burn out. Not sure about the other brands but those tires worked well for me. Suspension set up is another thing to figure into the equation
I went a best 60ft of 1.61 with a stock converter holding 15psi on my TE-44. Stock suspension and brakes.
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I left at 5 psi on Nittos for a 1.69 60'
With a Hellwig ARB cheap rear shocks and wore out saggy springs single adjustable QA1s up front set super soft at the track and no front sway bar
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Correction, I only held 10psi on the line with the TE-44. I held 15psi on the stock turbo.
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What the convertor is doing is all important. If you had PL then you'd know what it's 'flashing' to on launch...and also what the RPM drop is at the shift points.
You're guessing on your low gear fueling. PL takes all the guesswork out of it.
If you had PL you'd know for certain if you're breaking the tires loose on launch...or elsewhere down the track.
Piss on DR's...go right to 28x9 slicks.
If you're alky turn on point is to early...then all you're doing is drowning the engine. Your short time and 1/8th will suffer.
Line lock will keep the rear brakes cool...and Jason and I have the same rear brake mods. I've seen me launch as high as 4200 RPM.
I run 90/10's up front and QA1 single adjustables on the rear. Dan Keller videotaped my car launching a while back...and it was unloading the rear tires...so that's why I went to the rear adjustables.
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Wheree can I get info on the pl. Wheres a good place to buy.
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http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=2478.msg54388#msg54388 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=2478.msg54388#msg54388)
In the second picture you can see that the car is holding about 9-10psi @ +/-3650rpm and pre-launch AFR is in the mid-13s (.819V), and after that it spools up pretty quickly and stays above 25psi through the traps with just a tickle of KR.
And the bitch even ripped off a 1.7 second 60' time on the NT05Rs set at 18psi (cold).
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http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=2478.msg54388#msg54388 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=2478.msg54388#msg54388)
In the second picture you can see that the car is holding about 9-10psi @ +/-3650rpm and pre-launch AFR is in the mid-13s (.819V), and after that it spools up pretty quickly and stays above 25psi through the traps with just a tickle of KR.
And the bitch even ripped off a 1.7 second 60' time on the NT05Rs set at 18psi (cold).
Damn Mike! Looks like the 30 PSI in high gear was your limit with knock. Not certain of the wideband numbers but the narrow band looked like you still had some fuel left to pull out especially in low gear if it hadn't been for that pesky knock
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Wheree can I get info on the pl. Wheres a good place to buy.
www.fullthrottlespeed.com (http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com)
They have what you need and the support forums as well. Also there is a plethora of help to be had here
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http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=2478.msg54388#msg54388 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=2478.msg54388#msg54388)
In the second picture you can see that the car is holding about 9-10psi @ +/-3650rpm and pre-launch AFR is in the mid-13s (.819V), and after that it spools up pretty quickly and stays above 25psi through the traps with just a tickle of KR.
And the bitch even ripped off a 1.7 second 60' time on the NT05Rs set at 18psi (cold).
Damn Mike! Looks like the 30 PSI in high gear was your limit with knock. Not certain of the wideband numbers but the narrow band looked like you still had some fuel left to pull out especially in low gear if it hadn't been for that pesky knock
Just an overly safe (rich) tune, ironically the timing was jacked up due to a software update - it should have been 18* through the traps.
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Okay, the benefits of the PL for fine tuning the motor are obvious. That being said, on this thread we have guys leaving at 5 lbs with good 60 ft times and guys leaving at 15+. With what Im doing at the big end, if I can get a 1.7 60ft I'll be in the 11's. With a 2400-2500 stall converter and a 5931 turbo is that 1.7 time possible.
I guess what I'm getting at is I would like to figure out what combination will let me launch in the 5-6 lb range for good 60 ft times, is it even possible with my current combo?
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Shimy...what boost pressure do you have your alky coming on at?
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10 lbs. never changed anything, its set at what Julio sends them out at. The red light comes on about 8 and turns green at 10
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10 lbs. never changed anything, its set at what Julio sends them out at. The red light comes on about 8 and turns green at 10
Go over to the alky section on the other board. Razor has a sticky on how to tune his kit. :)
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Read everything and then called Julio to discuss. He says my problem is to low a stall converter (2400) with the 5931 turbo. He says I need a 2800-3000 stall converter to better match this turbo. He doubts I can tune around this and also I will cook my tranny if I keep trying to race with this combo. Steve Wood did tell me when I got this turbo I my run into a lag problem....... ...what a suprise, he was right again :rock:
So what is a good 2800 stall converter, where to buy, and what is a fair price?
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Read everything and then called Julio to discuss. He says my problem is to low a stall converter (2400) with the 5931 turbo. He says I need a 2800-3000 stall converter to better match this turbo. He doubts I can tune around this and also I will cook my tranny if I keep trying to race with this combo. Steve Wood did tell me when I got this turbo I my run into a lag problem....... ...what a suprise, he was right again :rock:
So what is a good 2800 stall converter, where to buy, and what is a fair price?
A converter will help. What is the elevation of the track you're racing at? With a TE-44 with a precision .63 on an unopen motor and stock converter running 24 psi and 18' of timing I was farting around without warming up the tires and I was running your ET's but with 116.6 mph as the highest trap speed. You should be able to pull fuel and add timing to help your 60ft.
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Here's some real world info in regard to convertor slip percentage.
When I ran the 1/4 with my SMC setup...my car would run 11.5 at 120 consistently. Turbo is a 6262 with a 16930 AC convertor. Slip rate checks in at 10 percent.
Norbs ran a 70 P Trim with a 2800 Precision multidisc. He ran a low 10 at 134. Slip rate was 3 percent with the convertor locked.
Brandon...who's a local went 11.01 at 123 with a 6131 on pump gas at 20 psi. PTC off the shelf 2800 NL convertor. Slip rate was 8 percent.
My own car is a pig out of the hole with Erics low gear fueling and timing on the default settings. Pull the full 20 percent low gear fuel out of it and add 3.5 degrees low gear timing to it...and all hell breaks loose.
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One of my imaginary friends from Canada got a dandy new converter from David H. He sez it works GREAT!
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Lol!
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called PTE and for their 2800 stall they want $450.....it is what it is but was hoping to find something good for a bit less :(
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http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/TC-GM15-HP.html (http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/TC-GM15-HP.html)
Something like this might work for you. I would find a lopo converter to send in as a core or just pay the $80 as the d5 if you have it can be redone. Or you might ask around at your track to see who does converters local to you. Converter might not be much cheaper but shipping is expensive. Plus if you need it restalled or something the local guy would probably hook you up if you bought it from them.
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talked to the local guy about a re-stall, he wanted $300 plus shipping both ways :rolleyes; Going to keep looking and see what my best off the shelf option is. I gotta believe there is a good 2800 stall option out there that will work for me at a good price. Its not a hard core race car, I just want a better launch but still keep descent drivability as that is 95% of what the car see's.
appreciate all the help :cheers:
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Lol!
Larry...what's the slip percentage of that convertor locked and unlocked?
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Shimy...do you plan on using a LU or NL convertor?
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Mostly street use so LU
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Leaning toward a CK with the 2800 stall.... $379
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I'd go with an off the shelf NL 2800 10" PTC and a NL kit from Chris...but that's just me. :)
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I have a lock up as well. I've never figured the efficiency of it but it I have no qualms when deciding whether or not to take a road trip
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I'd go with an off the shelf NL 2800 10" PTC and a NL kit from Chris...but that's just me. :)
Just curious, why the nl?
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Lol!
Larry...what's the slip percentage of that convertor locked and unlocked?
I have not checked or ran it locked up wot.
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I'd go with an off the shelf NL 2800 10" PTC and a NL kit from Chris...but that's just me. :)
Just curious, why the nl?
Because a LU convertor unlocked is incredibly inefficient... meaning you'll have a higher slip percentage...w hich equates to lower mph in the 1/4 and a higher rpm.
The only two convertors that can be locked at WOT to MY knowledge is the 9/11 and the Precision multidisc. The best idea would be to call Chris and David and ask if you can lock their convertors at WOT in 3rd gear for racing. I had two different LU convertors years ago. I had Eric lock them for me via his chip in 3rd gear for racing. Neither lasted long. I smoked the clutch in both of them.
Norbs went 134 mph with a Precision multidisc...an d Grumpy went 138 mph with a 9/11.
For daily driving when the convertor locks at highway speeds the rpm's will drop about 200 and get you 1-2 mpg better gas mileage. If I was worried about gas mileage then I would have sold my GN and bought a Honda. :)
I get 20 MPG with my old AC NL convertor. :rock:
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I would go non lock up myself. You can drive the new ones any where you want without much loss of gas mileage
Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk
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Well crap, I make a descision and then you guys have me re-thinking it :D I'm not worried about the mileage at all, kinda concerned about the higher RPM when freeway crusing. Seeing as my car is no monster racing, will I see much of a difference at the track between a NL and a LU? For that matter, will I notice much of a difference in regular driving between the 2?
Thanks for all the help guys, don't wana do this twice :cheers:
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The new NL have come a long ways. I like my 9/11 but I know it is losing me performance unlocked in the 1/4. Running pig rich one time at the track I was running 12.1@114, then locked the converter and went 11.8@117mph. I then unlocked the converter and started leaning it out till I got an 11.8@115mph.
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If you do go Non Lock up, be sure you have an external transmission cooler (in addition to your internal transmission cooler in your radiator). Non Lock Ups tend to cause much higher transmission fluid temperatures which could pose more of a concern on a long drive / cruise (particularly if you're on an uphill grade).
A sprag or diode is recommended to be installed in a converter if you want to keep fluid temperatures in check. Spragless tend to run higher / hotter fluid temps.
Here's a quote from Lonnie Diers (Extreme Automatics) one several leading 200-R4 transmission builders.
For long periods of time yes it is too high. Ideal would be 160s but in the real world that's a hard number to hit. Unfortunately with a spragless converter trans temps will be affected and tend to be higher in hiway driving situations. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. A true street converter should have a sprag when possible. Its makes cooling the transmission much easier. Bottom line is keeping the temps in check. If you can do that IMO it does not matter what converter you run. I personally run a diode in mine. For no other reason than transmission temp. The spragless I just could not keep under 210-220 deg.
Lonnie Diers
Cincinnati, OH
513-898-0553
Extreme Automatics (http://www.extremeautomatics.com/)
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Talked to Chris at CK and went over my combo and expectations and he recommended going with a 2800-3000 stall 9.5 inch wuth lu.
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well...its your money! :)
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Is it just the lu feature your not liking........ or the diameter...... .or the stall.....help me out Steve!! :icon_lol:
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Heat is the number one killer for transmissions. I run a large B and M transcooler. I have a full array of Z series gauges...inclu ding a trans heat gauge. Temp is normally 170 degrees on the freeways at 60 mph. I remember reading a post by Dusty Bradford stating not to sit on the footbrake or transbrake for more than 5 seconds so to avoid overheating the transmission. When bracket or grudge racing I'll prestage the car...and I'll sit there until the other car fully stages before I roll in...just to keep the trans temp down. For those that don't have a trans temp gauge in their car...you'd shit if you saw how fast the trans temp rises when you spool up on the line.
I talked to David Husek a while back and he recommended using an external cooler in tandem with the trans cooler in the rad.
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Already gave an opinion. :). This one should be fine if you get it
Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk
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I changed my mind back and forth a least 5 times on whether to go LU or NL. Common sense took over, I just asked myself how many times a year will I be running this car at the track. For me, 2-3 times tops, so I went with a Husek 9.5" LU. So far I'm elated with the performance of this converter. No track times as of yet but on the street the car is night and day to the D5. Foot brake to 1-2 psi, stab it and it just grenade's the tires. Driving normal, feels like the D5 in there. 12lb weight saving off the back of the crank as well.
If I had a track close to me I would probably be going way more often and would have gone NL.
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I talked to David Husek a while back and he recommended using an external cooler in tandem with the trans cooler in the rad.
That is how mine is setup and my stock 200 was still going strong with 70k original miles on it and a bunch of 11 second runs.
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that's the way I have generally done mine.
I think it's funny that every one is nodding their heads knowingly about heat problems with NL converters. I guess it is youth because it was not that long ago that all cars had NL converters and we did not know that there was a problem.
For years, the Art Carr 16930 was the hot ticket for a quick car. It gave about one mile per gallon less on the highway than the factory lock up. We all ran transmission coolers with them, but, most of us ran the secondary cooler with the lock up factory unit as well anyway. Everyone should know that the cooler the fluid, the longer the tranny life. Plenty of graphs online showing projected life vs tranny fluid. temp.
Today, modern NL converters slip a lot less than the Art Carr unit. The PTC NL slips less than 10% on top end at wide open throttle. At cruise, it seems to only slip a couple of hundred rpm....
Sometimes I think marketing creates a lot more facts than science has ever done.
But, back to the original post...you are not fast enuf to really make a difference and you are not on sticky tires. The lockup is just a straight swap without having to mod the tranny with the NL valve
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What makes the LU more efficient?
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In theory, it's locked up so no rpm is lost between what the motor puts into the front of the cover and what goes into the transmission on the other side
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.... With what Im doing at the big end, if I can get a 1.7 60ft I'll be in the 11's.....
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in 2011:
I am kicking around adding this during the summer. I dont want to run a ton of boost, low to mid 20's. Is it worth the trouble if I want to run a conservative set-up or is it more for racing and running balls out. This is 90% street car, I'm not looking to get into the elevens or anything.
Thanks guys!!
:D :D :D :D :D
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Dan Keller and I have nearly identical engines...and the same turbo. I'm finally gonna get a look at both convertors on PL and what they're doing tomorrow at Napierville. Let's see how my AC stacks up. :) I'll have all his data to crunch the PTC numbers. This is a full race convertor spec'd exactly for his car.
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Dan Keller and I have nearly identical engines...and the same turbo. I'm finally gonna get a look at both convertors on PL and what they're doing tomorrow at Napierville. Let's see how my AC stacks up. :) I'll have all his data to crunch the PTC numbers. This is a full race convertor spec'd exactly for his car.
I would like to see the comparison as well.
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What makes the LU more efficient?
I'm a dummy I meant to ask what makes a NLU more efficient up top?
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more efficient up top compared to a lock up that is not locked up....
I am not a converter guru and there are various ways of building a converter so the short answer is I don't know :)
It may have something to do with the lighter weight of a nlu creating less of a flywheel effect.
If you read enuf, you will find many proponents of lock up converters who believe they are much quicker than non lock ups. I know a lot of new cars lock the converters at a certain rpm under wot and some of those are in pretty fast cars. Not sure, ultimately, how long they live under racing conditions.
The AC converter was usually quicker off the line but was down a mile or two on the top end-yet the quicker acceleration in the first half was greater than loss in the second half. I would not bet against exceptions :D
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My first aftermarket converter was a 10" PTC NL. I called PTC and spoke to somebody who I cant recall and it was too loose. It would 60ft in the 1.50s off the footbrake but slipped about 15% at the traps. I was able to break into 11s with it though. I spoked to Dusty and sent it back to be tightened up. Then I could barely spool car on brakes and lost 60ft. Also it was still blowing through it at the traps with same 15% slip. He mentioned once you really start putting down the power the 10" cant hold it.
Finally bit the bullet and had Dusty spec me a 9.5 PTC NL. He got it right on the money. Way more efficient up top with 5% slip. Loose on the bottom to build over 15lb boost on footbrake. Cost double the price of 10" but well worth it if your looking for your best numbers. Just do your research so you dont buy a converter and then pay for restall and then buy the one you should have got first. Plus the fact of pulling trans out 2 or 3 times like I did.
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Got the new converter coming my way. So I never dropped a transmission before, and tips ,tricks , stuff to watch out for. Also going to change the fluid, whats a good one to use, mineral or syn? Also, should I change filter, its about 3 years old with about 40- 50 track passes. My extent of transmission knowledge pretty much ends at P is park and OD is overdrive :rolleyes;
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Yes, change the filter. Make sure you get the filter seal/oring out. Two up in there is not good. Getting the car up and supported well is very important. You definitely don't want it falling down. Watch the shift cable, tv cable and dipstick tube as they can get torn up/crushed. Trans is kinda unweildly especially trying to balance it on a floor jack and 2x6. If it tips back before you drain the fluid you get instant evacuation onto the floor. Very exciting, also very messy. A long extension to get the top bellhousing bolts from below is nice. If your motor mounts are worn support the engine as it can droop and damage things. While you have the trans out you might take a bfh and bend the pinch weld for next time as bloody hands are only so much fun.
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Is the new converter lockup or non lock? If its NL you need to get the nonlock valve kit. Its cheap. Also highly recommend putting a drain plug in your pan. You will thank yourself later!
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New converter is a LU and I have the drain plug already installed. I have a lift so I'll just need to rent a trans jack. Car had a trans cooler installed when I bought it so that's done, I'm going to add a trans temp gauge. Where is the best place to install the sending unit?
The other board has a sticky with pics and instructions on how to remove the tranny......ve ry helpful for a guy like me, I like pictures :cheers: