IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: earlbrown on October 21 2014, 05:13:04 PM
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A few people have been asking me about these things and I just haven't had time to handle the avalanche of overlysimplist ic questions that will come from announcing them on TB....
For those curious these are the slugs I've been messing with the last couple years. They were designed by me with the help of the former lead engineer at JE (who's currently working for the former owner of JE).
What I wanted was the ability to be flexible with the dimensions as far as bore size, ring size, pin size, and most importantly (to me) compression height.
The reverse dome is the only thing that' really set in stone. At 22cc's it's smaller than normal for a little extra pop and the shape has much more thought into it than just a relief for cylinder pressure. With our math we're expecting them to require 2 to 3 less degrees of ignition advance to achieve the same power. I was pretty happy with the outcome of how it came out.
The bore size can range from 2.500" all the way to 5.500", needless to say that will cover every Buick V6 made. The only limiting factor is ring selection. Have to be careful not to make a slug that has no rings! lol. I can make the compression height whatever I want and stick whatever pin in it, I want. Perfect for guys wanting to save a trashed forged crank by using long BBC rods.
It looks like they're going to be $500 for a set of forged 4.1's with pins, locks, and moly rings, or. and $550 for 3.8's with pins locks and rings. I was hoping to get the set into the $400's but aluminum has just been climbing too much the last few years. I've never really prices a bunch of different pistons before but I think that pricing is pretty good. Obviously they're cheaper without rings.
Anywhoo, that's one of the things I've been up to between naked chicks, building Ugly Drum Smokers, and drinking beers.
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they look really good to me....the longer I play with these things, the more I believe that Lawrence Conley was right...raise the compression, lower the timing and crank the boost up....
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Sexy Earl. What kind of valve clearance do they have.
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they look really good to me....the longer I play with these things, the more I believe that Lawrence Conley was right...raise the compression, lower the timing and crank the boost up....
Steve...can a 3.8 block...with 4 steel main caps/ARP hardware...sto ck rods/ARP hardware...sto ck std crank...and a set of Earls higher compression pistons withstand some 9.90 blasts?
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wasn't that what Dan (Grumpy) running...I would like a new crank, myself
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these factory cranks have millions of cycles on them...we are on borrowed time...all of us
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wasn't that what Dan (Grumpy) running...I would like a new crank, myself
I have a std/std and a 20/30 crank...and a 4.1 and a 3.8 block. The 6466 is currently only available in a DBB version...and it's pricey. Wondering if Bison could build it in a JB version. Steve...would that turbo have enuf flow at 28 PSI for these TA SE heads I have here? Dans block was girdled.
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I think it might, but I would defer to Bison on that one :)
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they look really good to me....the longer I play with these things, the more I believe that Lawrence Conley was right...raise the compression, lower the timing and crank the boost up....
I'm a fan of having quench and having some compression. 8:1 on these engine are just too low. Granted very few of us have daily GNs that rack up 600+ miles a week but I like the added gas mileage and throttle response. It's also a great way to avoid having to buy a high stall converter to patch a soggy engine.
Sexy Earl. What kind of valve clearance do they have.
Now you know that's overly simplistic Charlie :D The correct answer is ''it depends'' :) I've got well over .520 lift with a 215/220 cam and clear with no problem...
contents may settle while shipping, ask you parents before hotrodding, void where prohibited by law :D
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these factory cranks have millions of cycles on them...we are on borrowed time...all of us
I borrow regularly. So far, no down side but I do have backups for when the first one fails.
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It takes about 750 hp to crack the nines so that turbo is plenty. No problem with filling the ports on TA heads with air.
I would like a forged crank and piston/rods and a stock block would definitely have to be girdled if you want it to live for a while. About 9.5-1 compression-maybe 10-1 to match up with the cam.
I don't think filling the water jacket will help because the jackets don't go down far enough to stabilize the mains.
Cam-wise, there is nothing magic about a roller cam when it comes to power in spite of the ads. Solid lifters would be my choice in spite of the knock detector.
I like the first generation SD chips. I don't see a real need for the SD2. I know everyone will scream but look at all the tunability you have with 3D adjustments, but, I will say that we only run in a 700-800 rpm range after launch and you don't need a bunch of adjustment over that range unless you are running heads up in a pro class where a couple of hundreths might decide your fate.
Believe a wide band would be very helpful especially if giving up the knock sensor.
I think the key will be a damned good converter that slips like mad up to stall and then hardly has any slip after that point. Not one of the $500 10" specials by any means
wasn't that what Dan (Grumpy) running...I would like a new crank, myself
I have a std/std and a 20/30 crank...and a 4.1 and a 3.8 block. The 6466 is currently only available in a DBB version...and it's pricey. Wondering if Bison could build it in a JB version. Steve...would that turbo have enuf flow at 28 PSI for these TA SE heads I have here? Dans block was girdled.
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they look really good to me....the longer I play with these things, the more I believe that Lawrence Conley was right...raise the compression, lower the timing and crank the boost up....
I'm a fan of having quench and having some compression. 8:1 on these engine are just too low. Granted very few of us have daily GNs that rack up 600+ miles a week but I like the added gas mileage and throttle response. It's also a great way to avoid having to buy a high stall converter to patch a soggy engine.
Sexy Earl. What kind of valve clearance do they have.
Now you know that's overly simplistic Charlie :D The correct answer is ''it depends'' :) I've got well over .520 lift with a 215/220 cam and clear with no problem...
contents may settle while shipping, ask you parents before hotrodding, void where prohibited by law :D
Quench! no one talks about quench these days! :icon_lol: But, if you want to minimize detonation you need to. Funny, I run about 9.3-1 compression on both of my cars. The car with the stock cam has no problem running 26 psi so maybe quench is important? I have hit 30 on the other car with the 210 cam without detonation. Of course, it can be hard to have detonation when spraying alky so I cannot stay for sure.
At one time, I ran a 221/221 flat tappet with that compression. It needed a bit more stall that the 2600 converter, but when it hit 5000 rpm, the exhaust sounded like a 390 Ford with a good cam and steel packs. Felt like it downshifted. Almost as good a sound as a P-51 making a fly by :rock:
Any way, I love compression. I hate cars with loose converters that don't want move when you ease down on the pedal
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Earl,
I've seen a chart before that shows what compression ratios are possible with different thicknesses of head gaskets verses the bore of a 3.8 Buick v6. Is this something that you can put together with your pistons or just let us do the math?
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Quench! no one talks about quench these days! :icon_lol: But, if you want to minimize detonation you need to. Funny, I run about 9.3-1 compression on both of my cars. The car with the stock cam has no problem running 26 psi so maybe quench is important? I have hit 30 on the other car with the 210 cam without detonation. Of course, it can be hard to have detonation when spraying alky so I cannot stay for sure.
At one time, I ran a 221/221 flat tappet with that compression. It needed a bit more stall that the 2600 converter, but when it hit 5000 rpm, the exhaust sounded like a 390 Ford with a good cam and steel packs. Felt like it downshifted. Almost as good a sound as a P-51 making a fly by :rock:
Any way, I love compression. I hate cars with loose converters that don't want move when you ease down on the pedal
I do. With our combustion chambers there's VERY little deck area hanging into the bore, but I'll still take it. Anything that can mix up the mixture and/or blow out detonation, I'm a fan of. ...not to mention the free point of compression you get from having it.
Good2win22, this is the one I use for static compression. My domes are -22cc's.
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccr.htm (http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccr.htm)
and this is the one that really matters....
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php (http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php)
Playing with this one will illuminate just how you need to raise compression to offset running big ass cams.
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What do experts look for as "ideal quench" with stock rods on our motors?
.040 a good number to shoot for?
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.040" is as tight as you want to shoot for on a normal hot build. Any closer than that and rod stretch, and piston rock become issues. That's assuming you're not loose in the bore to start with. Once you get past .060" you're pretty much out of the zone and lost the benefits of having quench.
As you can see, there's not a lot of quench area with 8445 heads. This pic is with a 3.995" 4.1 bore and there's still very little exposed deck meat.
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Thanks earl! I have measured and as far as I can tell my pistons are .007 inside the hole
with a .035 compressed RJC gasket I should be at .042 going to pull the motor over the winter and put in the new short block so I'm ready for spring.
My buddy just finished a motor and he ended up .007 outside the hole....
with the stock gasket he has pretty close to the same quench and his motor works pretty well.
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Quench! no one talks about quench these days! :icon_lol: But, if you want to minimize detonation you need to. Funny, I run about 9.3-1 compression on both of my cars. The car with the stock cam has no problem running 26 psi so maybe quench is important? I have hit 30 on the other car with the 210 cam without detonation. Of course, it can be hard to have detonation when spraying alky so I cannot stay for sure.
At one time, I ran a 221/221 flat tappet with that compression. It needed a bit more stall that the 2600 converter, but when it hit 5000 rpm, the exhaust sounded like a 390 Ford with a good cam and steel packs. Felt like it downshifted. Almost as good a sound as a P-51 making a fly by :rock:
Any way, I love compression. I hate cars with loose converters that don't want move when you ease down on the pedal
I do. With our combustion chambers there's VERY little deck area hanging into the bore, but I'll still take it. Anything that can mix up the mixture and/or blow out detonation, I'm a fan of. ...not to mention the free point of compression you get from having it.
Good2win22, this is the one I use for static compression. My domes are -22cc's.
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccr.htm (http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccr.htm)
and this is the one that really matters....
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php (http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php)
Playing with this one will illuminate just how you need to raise compression to offset running big ass cams.
Thanks Earl!
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Thanks earl! I have measured and as far as I can tell my pistons are .007 inside the hole
When you measure, there's two ways to do it. Once is to take a reading above the wristpin.
The better way i to take a reading 90* from the pin and rock the piston back and forth. That will give you a low number, a high number, and a spread. The more piston rock you have, the greater the spread will be.