IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: phil_long on October 07 2014, 09:03:36 AM
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Hey gents, I haven't really been testing and tuning my car, but the last time i attempted, I hadn't been able to get the O2's up in third gear. The TT chip was burned for 17 lbs of boost, and in 1st and 2nd gear, that was completely fine, but 3rd gear is another story. My main goal is to go WOT in 3rd, so I did the overkill thing and dropped the boost down to about 12-13 lbs and took the FP up. I believe I set the WOT fueling to 140. I'll have to double check. I'm going to check sometime this week, but even with the boost lowered, I cannot get close to 780-790(more like 720-730) for O2's in 3rd. I know I need to remove a lot of fuel for 1st gear WOT because it's filthy rich, but I can tune around that. My FP is raising as it should, and when I had the boost at 17 lbs, my FP hit 60 lbs and held steady. I started this thread to record my own data and potentially get some insight on some potential issues. Thanks for reading and I will have exact numbers up soon so we know where to go.
P.S. my lazy butt still havent cleaned my air filter. Lol. :icon_eyes:
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and, of course!, you checked to make sure your maf is reading pretty close to 255 at wide open throttle when you had it set to 17 psi?
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You know I didn't check the MAF at WOT. :rolleyes; This is why I posted!! Lol. Get ideas and simple tips to refer back to. Does the MAF read that regardless of Boost settings? Thanks for the input Steve. I got some Vacation saved up to come down and help break in that new motor for your other car.
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LOL c'mon down!
AT 17 psi it should read something like 245-255.
At 12 psi, it will read less and I never checked one that low. I am guessing it will be around 230 or so but that is a puredee guess. I think Eric's chip requires about 240 and then it will lock the fueling in
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Thats great info. So if the MAF doesn't read that, the fueling would be thrown off. Thanks Steve!
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yep...makes it lean
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Sounds like mine when the stock maf went. Time for a new maf, translator set up
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im hoping its something simple like that!!! I could just replace it. I got the MAF from Earl I believe. I sent me the best one he had by accident!! :D
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look at the numbers first
Shimey likes to change parts and see what happens! :D
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If the SM numbers are correct...have a peek at the grounds on the back of the PS head.
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Shimey likes to change parts and see what happens! :D
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Gotta keep those vendors in business :cheers:
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I double check the ground on the head every time i pop the hood. Lol. I'll get some numbers very soon!!
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Finally got around to drive the car today. Turned the boost up to 14 lbs. the AF at WOT was 255. So i guess we can rule out the MAF sensor. I'll get the numbers from my WOT fuel settings later on tonight possibly
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what kinda o2 sensor do you have and how old is it?
You need to check the fuel pressure in third gear at wide open throttle
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Ok I'll do that. The o2 sensor is probably 2 years old? Swapped it out when i did the fuel pump
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it should be good, then...get us a wide open throttle up in third gear fuel pressure
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Ok I'll do that. The o2 sensor is probably 2 years old? Swapped it out when i did the fuel pump
Put a new denso or A/C in it and report back. o2 sensors are like plugs you want them pretty fresh.
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If cc are jumping up by 20ish isnt that a gauge of O2 working okay??
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On four different occasions I've seen an 02 sensor failing show up as a bog when going into boost...with no code thrown. I use Denso's and swap 'em out on a regular basis.
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Got a chance to do a couple of pulls on my way home from work. The FP gauge read 54-55 lbs at WOT with thr boost being at 14lbs. The first WOT read 761. Then 785, 761,732, then 695. :-( i imediately lifted of course, the FP stayed at 54-55lbs solid. Thoughts?
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All these at speeds of 70 mph and above
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It's running out of gas, I think. . Is this a good gauge that reads right?
Shows 43 hose off at idle and about 37 with the hose connected?
The o2s are about 780-800 at hot idle?
Got another sensor to try?
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I have the expensive FP gauge you recommended to me after letting me borrow yours. And I'll double check FP numbers at idle with hose off. Thanks for the assistance so far. No to the other sensor but i dont think they're too expensive to buy another?
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If cc are jumping up by 20ish isnt that a gauge of O2 working okay??
i thought the same thing about the CC's
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You are not running a heated o2 are you? Generally cc 's are a good indicator
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Nope, just an ordinary o2 sensor. The FP at hot idle with line on is at 38 lbs. The Walbro was installed August of 2012 and the hotwire kit a week after that. I never went WOT with the stock chip and injectors. Since the install of the TT chip and 42lbers, I 've never been able to get my 3rd gear WOT 02's in the 780-790 range. I remember vividly when i changed the T-stat I had accidentally unplugged the WG actuator and the boost was limited to 10-11 lbs. Even then the 3rd Gear o2's were pretty low. :x
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Didn't Eric's chips used to be 43 or 45lbs of base fp?
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My chip from eric said to set at 43 for a starting point
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those numbers are with line off. Line on it should drop to 38 lbs or so.
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I don't know what is going on....
The fuel pressure at 14 psi should be 57. Your gauge is a couple of pounds low but that could just be the gauge. I say that because it seems to be lean no matter what boost you are running so I don't think it is a fuel issue even tho it looks like one.
The strange thing that I see are the O2s. They start off a bit low for a couple of runs and then they get really low. This is when I would like to see a powerlogger log to see what the injector pulsewidths are doing and what the voltage is showing.
As it does it worse with repetition and the fuel pressure is not changing, my first thought is heat. O2 sensor is getting hotter and the ecm injector drivers are getting hotter.
This is not too expensive so order one of these http://www.nos4gn.com/servlet/the-360/Sensor--dsh--Oxygen--dsh-/Detail (http://www.nos4gn.com/servlet/the-360/Sensor--dsh--Oxygen--dsh-/Detail)
While you are waiting on that, see if you can find another ecm to swap out....
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Ok, I'll see what I can do. Thanks Steve.
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Hows the voltage holding up?
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I havent checked the voltage at WOT. :chin:
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Is the chip adjustable? Put some 3rd gear fuel in it and see what the 02's do - if they stay flat you have a junk o2 sensor.
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I upped the 3rd Gear WOT fueling to 142. No change WHATSOEVER. Lol. I was pissed. Hahaha
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This is the problem with narrowband tuning. We don't know what .xxx = in afr. It could be rich or lean. We have a good guess on a properly calibrated sensor that .780mv is a decent safe target for most cars. But what happens when you get a junk sensor?
I'm not saying run out and buy a WB02/EGT/Powerlogger and log fuel pressure every run - but all these tools let you see more of the total picture.
Things that we need:
voltage @ wot
TPS voltage @ wot - is the computer hitting PE mode
o2 changed - does it read better
injector pw - Bailey's extender chips would display this on the scanmaster - don't know if eric's does or not.
also check on the drivers side of the car to see if the fuel lines are pinched and how old is the fuel filter.
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All great points!! Eric's chip does not show injector PW. Whether or not the ECM is hitting power enrichment based on the WOT TPS voltage I can check. The o2 sensor will be here next week sometime. What all is required for powerlogger? Is it similar to direct scan? I can also double check the fuel lines. The fuel filter was replaced right before the fuel pump. July of 2012.
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PL is an improved version of DS. Connects the same way.
If the chip can be programmed, the tps is okay on the high end...PE is invoked by LV8 and not tps...
The factory nb O2 sensor is more reliable, day in, and day out, that most widebands on our cars and it usually lasts 40-50,000 miles but some brands are not as reliable as others...Delco was always the good brand but I hear stories about them being funny right out of the box at times...Chines e I guess.
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PL is an improved version of DS. Connects the same way.
If the chip can be programmed, the tps is okay on the high end...PE is invoked by LV8 and not tps...
The factory nb O2 sensor is more reliable, day in, and day out, that most widebands on our cars and it usually lasts 40-50,000 miles but some brands are not as reliable as others...Delco was always the good brand but I hear stories about them being funny right out of the box at times...Chines e I guess.
been out of it to long.....I forgot that lv8 controls PE. And good point on the TPS.
I've tuned TR's with nb's and it works. But I find that a scanmaster doesn't give enough of the picture. If you add in a time slip you can fine tune via narrow band easier. Without more info you don't know if you are headed it the right direction.
All the info in the world doesn't help if you can't understand it or use it for your advantage.
And your right most widebands are junk - but there are some good units out there. You couldn't pry my NGK AFX from me. It's stupid repeatable - which is what matters, I can richen or lean the tune out and watch mph and then lock it in where it needs to be :)
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The factory nb O2 sensor is more reliable, day in, and day out, that most widebands on our cars and it usually lasts 40-50,000 miles but some brands are not as reliable as others...Delco was always the good brand but I hear stories about them being funny right out of the box at times...Chines e I guess.
Over the last 2 years, I've installed two O2 delcos out of the box that worked. One for a month and the other for about 2 days. Went with a Denso and haven't had any issues since
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denso it is then!! idk what brand o2 sensor im running right now
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Erics 5.7 chip shows IPW on PL. :rock:
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Steve...what inside the ECM would muddle the 02 reading?
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Steve...what inside the ECM would muddle the 02 reading?
I was wondering if the injector drivers were getting hot and cutting down on fuel.
I also mentioned voltage. . I would like to know if the alternator is holding voltage after a couple of runs
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I went thru three innovates...ha ve an AFX in my GN now...it went nuts once and I could not find anything wrong...then one morning, I cranked it and it read right again and has worked a long time now...I like to have both because comparing the two have helped me figure out some fueling problems when alky is being sprayed....som etimes you can run these cars on alky with a failing fuel pump and not get any detonation and the O2s will show low but the A/F appears okay because the guy kept turning up the alky....
William Avila's car will not pull rpm in third and his O2s are going lean but his A/F is holding steady. I see a slight drop off on fp in third and and his pulsewidths are increasing as the pressure drops...he's running closed loop on a TT 6.0
Add in that his car won't shift into third and it is really confusing me. He says he pulled a valve spring and it tested 135 lbs but I am lost and the damn tranny issue is driving me nuts. His car was not running as fast as it should be and I made him check compression... was about 110 across the board...he pulled the engine rebuilt it and the blow by went away but he did not check the compression... and the tranny quit shifting into third...you gotta hate cars somedays
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The trans never shifts to third? Or just no shift at wot? Does it skip third and go to fourth? Trans pressures? Put a gauge on it to see if it is loosing pressure. Could have toasted clutches/steels, could have a torn seal so it never applies the clutch. Tv cable set correctly?
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it does not shift at wot. Started after the engine was pulled, apparently. CK transmission originally. He took it took a local guy who rebuilt it and replaced fried clutches, messed up converter, etc...still does not shift. Tried a different governor and that made it worse. Changed the tv cable and it stayed the same. He's at BG now. Vince said he would look at it but so far they have not met up after the first day unless it happened this afternoon.
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This just cropped up and shifted after the "local guy" overhauled it? Sounds to me like the direct clutches are not setup properly or a seal got ripped. Or maybe a leaking vb or shift valve.
Probably have to come out and pulled apart. Mr Janis will be able to remedy it either way. I'm kinda biased as I was born in Akron, but I got to Texas as fast as I could.
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no, it cropped up after he pulled the engine...local guy did it after that...looks like it will now shift manually after swapping the tv cable yesterday.
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Could be a valve body problem. Leaking between the passages, or the 2-3 shift valve might need looked at. That is why I gave uo and out my own together. None of the local guys that I trust were cheap enough for me to afford.
Did he get up with Vince at the nats?
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vince could not do anything for it there....
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Could be a valve body problem. Leaking between the passages, or the 2-3 shift valve might need looked at. That is why I gave uo and out my own together. None of the local guys that I trust were cheap enough for me to afford.
Did he get up with Vince at the nats?
So Mike Casteel looked at the car, revved the engine, and said something to the effect of, "Dude!, your motor mount is broken!" Strapped the engine down with a tied down strap and the tranny then shifted....at least it shifted manually which it would not do before. I don't think he tried letting it shift automatically because he only made one run
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Funny how experience can unveil probs you didn't know you had.
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Why would a broken mount prevent the shift?
The TV cable isn't like an old school chrysler kickdown linkage
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Seemed to be moving the shift lever on the tranny via the rod to the column. Pushing it in to second when the engine lurched
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Thats nuts. My WOT voltage was 13.5
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okay, back to Phil! lol
now crank it up and go check the voltage at the fuel pump to make sure it is about the same as what you measure at the back of the alternator.
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Steve, I'm sitting this one out and watching. :) I've got two cars here with whacked out 02 readings...and both cars are fine at WOT for fuel. One has WB...and 9.0 to 1 at WOT. That`s why I asked the ECM question. Hoping for an easy fix. :)
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Brad, I don't think it is the sensor. Don't think PE is trimmed by the O2, but I have not asked Eric. but, there are a bunch of bad O2s floating around and I would like to know for sure we are getting the numbers correctly.
My first guess is that his pump is a pos that flows less as the current load increases and it gets hot. My second is the ecm. It's easier to swap an ecm to find out if it is the problem than it is to swap a new pump in.
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I've got new Densos in each car. One has Reds double pumper and the other has a new 255 LPH pump...both are hotwired. WOT voltage is good in each car...and grounds on PS head are fine. Fuel pressure is rising with both for each pound of boost. No KR present in PL logs. IDC is fine in both cars as well. Low 02 readings I'm seeing make no sense.
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normally, I would say exhaust leak before the sensor
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normally, I would say exhaust leak before the sensor
Now..that makes sense. Would idle BLM's be out of whack too? I believe both cars were a tad rich...and I have a PL file on one I could double check.
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Most likely
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I will def check the voltage at the pump. Is there a specific way of doing that? I know I cant just unplug it while its running. Lol. Also, I smell fuel at WOT, or anytime I get on the gas. The o2's in 1st and 2nd are fine, but 3rd is the sucky one. Checked for fuel leaks, but I couldn't find any.
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Crank the car up and check the voltage at the alternator and then go to the back and probe the power wire going to the pump and the ground wire. Also compare that voltage to probing the power wire to the pump with the ground probe on the sheet metal where the tank straps are attached to the body. Some times the grounds are bad on these things from the pump and you will find a sizable drop on the ground side.
If you have a pretty good voltage loss at idle, it will be greater under load
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sounds easy enough. im tempted to A)put some E85 to see if that changes the o2 readings or B)seeing if an alky kit will change the o2 readings. I just feel those ideas might complicate things a bit. :hmm
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No e85 unless you want to ruin the pump! No alky until we figure out the problem. . Are you sure there are no cracks in the headers or leaks in the cross over?
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I am NOT sure actually. The headers had gotten welded up some 8 years back. Would it be something that I could hear? I can take a video if there's not an easier way. It sounds like it might have a leak somewhere near the crossover.
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Try a smoke test for leaks
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I can do that, but Im not familiar. Should I light a cigarette and stick it in the throttle body? :rofl: Just kidding. I can check gnttype.org to see if there's instructions. Lol
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What worked best for me was shim the throttle open just a bit so it wont die and dip a vacuum line in a bottle of sea foam or I used 2 stroke oil and when the smoke starts rolling out the back start looking for leaks
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just pull the line off the fp regulator and dip it into the sea foam.....proba bly have to restrict the hose a bit so it won't suck too fast...and watch for smoke under the hood around the manifolds and under the turbo
you got the new denso sensor yet?
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No sir to the denso sensor. I'll keep you all posted on the arrival of it and when I get it installed. I honestly do believe I may have some cracks/leaks around the crossover pipe. We shall see!! Thank you for all of you guys input.
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Just checking in. I havent forgotten about the thread. I ordered the sensor and it should be here Sat. I do have another ECM available for me to try from another TR owner local to me. I'll check for exhaust leaks and replace the 02 sensor first. Thanks again for all the help.
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So apparently I had already installed a Denso sensor on my car. At least I know now and I can check that off the list. Weather is shit here so driving the car is out. Keep you guys posted. My next test will be checking for leaks around the headers