IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on July 21 2014, 12:47:05 PM
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Okay, looking for some advice on getting a better spool up. Have the new 5931 turbo, convertor appears to be in the 2600-2700 range. A different convertor is not in the wallet this year so please dont tell me get a higher stall. Been taking fuel out of first and adding timing in first with the chip. That has been helping but wondering if there are any other tricks out there. Wrapping down pipe? turning down FP 1 or 2 pounds?
Thanks!
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Are you still running the stock air intake system? Could go with a less restrictive set up. I can assure that my TA49 surprised the shit out of me the first time I got into the boost after installing a 3" cold air intake setup. neverminde. just read your signature
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What does the carbon trace look like from your downpipe puck to wastegate port on the turbine housing look like?
1. Is it fully seated?
2. Can it be ported?
Also check the tension on the WG actuator arm, if it is set too loose it will unseat quickly and hemorrhage exhaust gas. Too tight and it will cause boost creep.
Whatever you do: do not change the recommended baseline fuel pressure.
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Use a manual boost controller and remember that told you the converter was too small and turbo68 told you the pte housings spooled slower.
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Will look and see if porting can be done....leave 1/8 inch overlap? Using a rjc boost controler already. I do remember turbo68 said to use the garret housing....can someone explain that to me?
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The Garret .63 exhaust housing is smaller than the Precision .63 exhaust housing. The Garret...being smaller...spoo ls quicker. Be sure you have ZERO pre turbo exhaust leaks...and that your headers aren't cracked.
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Would it be possible for you to slide under the car...and take a pic of the convertor...an d try and get some numbers off it? We could likely pinpoint the convertor you have.
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Not sure what porting the waste gate will do for spool. I suspect mike was talking about a different form of porting which probably needs to be done by a pro, but maybe not. Bottom line is that the laws of physics are against you :)
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I would think it would spool quickly from a roll and you have the wrong tires for a standing start anyway!
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Not sure what porting the waste gate will do for spool. I suspect mike was talking about a different form of porting which probably needs to be done by a pro, but maybe not. Bottom line is that the laws of physics are against you :)
I contacted Patrick Rubio when I ordered my 6262 to get him to match a convertor for me.
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Wed. I will have it up on the lift to change the starter. I will try to get some pics and numbers of the convertor. Headers are good and no exhaust leaks. The spool isnt terrible, just not as good as stock was. I thought with the experience on here some of you guys might know some "tricks" to help me :cheers:
As usual I should have researched better before buying something. You know the saying " a fool and his money......"
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numbers on converters are meaningless normally...onc e a converter has been modified, the letters mean nothing.
As I said before, adjust the alky so it starts about 10-12 psi. Lean it down in low, add a little timing. That is about the best you can do when the converter is mismatched.
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Not sure what porting the waste gate will do for spool. I suspect mike was talking about a different form of porting which probably needs to be done by a pro, but maybe not. Bottom line is that the laws of physics are against you :)
I was chasing the whole "if your WG puck is loose/failing to seat, tighten the arm; if boost creep develops, port WG hole" thing. It is a double edged sword.
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new turbo should not need any porting for his application. He is running what is close to a modern day equivalent to a TE60 which generally required about 3000 rpm stall. When you add the larger PTE housing, you compound the problem. If it spools quickly from a stomp it would not appear to be turbo related.
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I went back and checked Patricks chart for the new turbos from a couple years back...and yours is likely the newer version of the the 5957. Precision is calling for a stock to 2800 convertor for the JB version. The 6057...which is the next size up...is calling for a 2800...for the JB version. A quality 2800 convertor should spool your turbo like a mad whore.
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It appears I have a 2600- 2700 convertor. I think once I get the first gear fuel and timing tuned it will be okay. Suprisingly its REALLY rich with base settings and that is killing my spool. I will report back tommorrow, changing starter and tuning some more then.
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set the chip as per the method on my page that I gave you before
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Tuning is going well. Starter went in easy but still very sluggish. Cleaned connections at starter when installed. Next step is to find other end of wires and clean those connections. Any advise or direction here would be greatly appreciated. Damn near stranded me while tuning as you need to shut off to adjust chip. And I am in middle of nowhere to tune....no traffic or police.
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check the cleanliness of the starter cable at both ends. Then check the voltage on the battery while it is cranking....so unds possibly like a weak cell in the battery but that's why god created volt meters.
Be sure the ground cable is firmly attached to the turbo support bracket and is not loose...will not hurt to clean that connection as well. I have seen a number of people that drove around with that connection unattached and the only ground on the car was the small wire going to the inner fender.
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Battery?
Mobile larrym
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As wire gets older it builds up resistance and also gets brittle. Replacing the cables from 1987 is never a bad idea.
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Again Mr. Wood, your right on the money! When I changed the turbo I didnt see that ground cable was attached there. Put it all back and didnt reconnect it :icon_redface: im sure that was causing me the trouble with the alky system to, as the fix for that was to put a direct ground to the Map. Thanks again Steve :cheers:
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LOL
so did you put it on and does it crank better now?
Don't feel bad, I have seen them left off quite a few times...
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Do I need to come up there and kick you in the head to find out if that fixed the starter?
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Ouch!! Dont know yet. Reattached it abour 10 the other night but havent run the car since. Ill post up results but I'm gussing That will have solved my problem
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finally drove it agan this morning....sta rter works awesome.....sp ins twice as fast as old one. On the spool also, after some tuning its is good, and I still havent fine tuned, starter issue, but i think it will suit my needs. Much stronger car now, lose traction a bit when it hits second, never happend with stock turbo. O2's top of thrid at 792 so there is a bit left there, and more down low :rock:
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Ain't science amazing!?
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how does it run from a roll? I would think it would get up and get it?
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Very strong! September 27 is the next time I can get it to a track. Cant wait to see what it runs. If a few things come together I might be able to get some Nitto's on it by then.
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with those tires, you don't have a chance, I don't think... On the other hand, it may be too weak on the bottom end to blow them away on a sticky track and it might not be too bad...altho they might go up in smoke about 25 mph...I guess you won't know til you try them. If you have Nittos, it may come out slow until the boost gets up...again, I guess you have to try it to know for sure.
You may get an indication by how bad, if at all, they spin on the street
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At what MPH did you see 792? Reason I ask is that your 02's are leanest at the top of the track. If you stabbed it in third and let off after a couple seconds...then that 792 is gonna be a lot leaner when you go through the traps. If it was anything less than 115 mph...then I'd throw some 3rd gear fuel at it for your initial run...and then go from there. Changing head gaskets...suck s.
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792 was at end of a run from a stand still to about 100. My reading about tuning said with alky I should safely be between 780 and 790 as long as no knock? I show 0.0 knock so far on these type of test runs. Was going to leave overall fuel setting here and start to lean down 1st gear
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if you went 1320 feet and saw 792...then you're fine. 100 mph in the 1/4 is a 13.6.
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I normally look for 750-760 at the line on alky. But, I doubt you will gain much over a 790. You have the boost at 25-26?
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23-24
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not getting much benefit from the larger turbo....
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Ill have to crank her up then :rock:
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Well had a heart stopper. 3rd test run. All is well, about 60 the car stumbled but kept pulling then about 90-100 ( I guess) I hear a big pop an hissing as the knock alarm goes off. I lift and step on brakes....hard as a rock......I figure I just popped her. As im rolling to a stop trying to get some braking I notice the tac is just sitting at 2000 so I blip the throttle. No bad sounds... I get to a stop and pop the hood. It blew the vacuum hose off the brake booster and also off the fpr. Put both back on and all is well :rock: for anyone that runs the track with vacuum brakes zip tie that hose!!!! I would have had a hell of a time stopping in time at the track I run at.
I have the wastegate arm maxed in and my rjc boost controler maxed out. Will only push 24 lbs??? Its a heavy duty auctuator. Do I need a stronger spring in the boost controller??
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do you have the heavy duty actuator or is the stock actuator? That would be maxed out for the stock. the HD actuator starts at about 18 psi minimum.
You can take the controller apart and put a shim under the spring to make it stiffer and see what that gives you.
The reason your car was running so rich on the defaults is that Eric normally sets the fueling for about 25 psi.
Zip tie all the vacuum lines including the ones on the block on top the plenum and the waste-gate plumbing hoses
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I don't bother with a controller...j ust turn the rod to the desired boost I want. On the back of your chip Eric will have the boost pressure and the high/low timing written on it.
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Two problems with that approach that I am aware of :)
The more you shorten the rod, the less the wastegate can open and you may get third gear boost creep because the turbo is producing more than the engine can consume...this is a problem with larger turbos
The second is that with a stock actuator, about all you can pull is 21-22 psi of boost.
The lack of the controller will make the turbo spool slower because the wastegate starts opening at a lower boost. I don't include this as a problem because it may actually keep you from blowing the tires away when the combo is well matched and the turbo spools too fast
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I haven't noticed any boost creep with this 6262...with Jasons biggie puck...and porting the wastegate hole as far as I can. Spoolup is a whole lot quicker when I pull the low gear 02's into the 750's from the 840's with Erics chip on the default setting. I run AC's 16930 convertor...se ems to be a good match for my needs. My personal preference is to run a tighter convertor...an d I can tune the low gear fuel/timing in to wake it up. I'm a big fan of PL...as it makes dialing these cars in a snap.
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I dont understand how this hd actuator maxed out will only hit 24 lbs. Gonna try to shim the boost controller today.
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an hd actuator should go to about 28 psi...put a shim under the spring in the controller and see what happens...mayb e the spring is weak in it.
Do you have about an 1/8" tension on the wastegate arm?
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an hd actuator should go to about 28 psi...put a shim under the spring in the controller and see what happens...mayb e the spring is weak in it.
Do you have about an 1/8" tension on the wastegate arm?
Steve...is it possible because his heads are stock...that they're a restriction... and that's why he can't jam anymore pressure through it?
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Maybe an pre turbo exhaust leak with the added back pressure?
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brad, that would make the boost higher
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brad, that would make the boost higher
Damn I'm brain dead.
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Wait til you're old
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Made a thicker shim for boost controller, have It maxed out. Have actuator arm set at 1\8 inch pull to place over pin. 22lbs :( ran out of time but going to set arm to 1\4 inch to pin and see if that gets me to 25????
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As said above, exhaust leak,? With it running, do you feel a leak under the turbo where it bolts to the up pipe?
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No apparent leaks. I can pour sea foam into the vacuum line that runs the brake booster to make smoke to find any leaks if I remember correctly?
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Worth a try
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Been thinking and the symptoms car has are like the puck isnt sealing correctly. Will be checking that along with exhaust leak test.
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Yes sir make sure it's lined up and the weld holding the puck is not preventing it from sealing. There is a thread with pics on the other board.
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Puck lined up perfectly, no exhaust leaks with seafoam test, no vacuum line leaks. This thing should be boosting like crazy??
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Once upon a time...there was a guy up here in Canada. He bought a GN...and for the longest time he couldn't figure out why it took forever to spool. He one day took it upon himself to slide under the car to verify what convertor was installed. Instead of it being a D5...it had 7's stamped on it...which was a convertor out of a Monte Carlo SS with a 200...which stalled much lower.
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At this point im satisfied with the rate of spool. What I need is to get it to push more than 22-23 lbs, thats all I can get?? I want 25-26 but with rjc boost controller shimed and completely turned in and hd actuator arm a tick over 1/8 inch pull to get on pin it wont pull more than 22-23 lbs even at the top of 3rd gear
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As I said, hd actuator should give 18-28 psi. If you are using a stock downpipe with a stock exhaust housing, there is a chance that the factory puck is not quite large enuf to cover the waste gate hole, or the hole is slightly off center. I believe RJC racing sells a larger puck that can be installed on the factory housing..
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Stock housing, 3 inch downpipe, I checked that puck idea last night. put some red chalk line powder on puck and put housing back on and clicked it closed a few times. Perfectly centered over hole with about 1/8 inch ring of red dust all the way around so that seeems spot on.
Tonight I'm going to set actuator arm to 1/4 inch pull to get on pin and see if that helps?
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remove the boost controller and replace it with a straight piece of hose between the compressor port and the actuator, set the actuator to 1/8"---what does the boost read at wot? second gear is fine.
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Well with tuner style, 1/8 pull to pin, she pulled 13-14 lbs. I suspect they sent me the regular actuator, not the hd. The part # on it is 1011-144, anyone know what the part # should be for a hd actuator?
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that is the right number but it acts like the regular one assuming you have no leaks. I bet it is mismarked.
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It has to be mismarked. I also turned it up to 1/4 inch to pin and it would pull 15-16 lbs. Tomorrow ill call them and see if they will swap me a new one.
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you sucked some sea foam thru it to be sure there are no leaks?
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Yes...alot...s moked out the back but none at all in engine compartment. Checked around each header alot where they are known to crack and no smoke at all. An hd actuator set at 1/4 inch pull should have surely been over 20 lbs.
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It has to be mismarked. I also turned it up to 1/4 inch to pin and it would pull 15-16 lbs. Tomorrow ill call them and see if they will swap me a new one.
Why does it have to be mislabeled? Why can't it be defective, damaged, or another issue altogether?
You should put a vacuum pump/pressure gauge on it and see where starts to move the arm - off the car. This will help determine if it is the actuator that is faulty or your car is causing problems.
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At what pressure applied to it should the arm move. 18lbs??? Also with no exhaust leaks, no vacuum leaks, what else on the car would affect boost stopping at 23lbs??
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it will start a bit before...just call Mike up and tell him the situation and ask to swap it since you cannot find anything else wrong. As it spools pretty fast, it would seem to be the actuator
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Bench tested it this morning, starts to move the arm about 10 lbs of air. Called them and waiting for an answer as to what they will do. Wasted a month chasing my tail trying to get this thing right :013:
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Maybe you learned something that will help you in the future.
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Your a wise man Mr. Wood. If your not careful, word is going to get out that you know a thing or two about these dam Buicks and then everyone is going to be asking you for advise :O
Thanks again! :cheers:
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got a new actuator, yet?
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Friday...no time to test yet :( I will update a soon as I can
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finally got it out this morning. Actuator set at 1/4 inch pull to get on pin. 23lbs boost. I'm out of ideas. no exhaust leaks ( I can find) could a vacuum leak cause this lack of boost. My cruise will very slowly lose speed on a long incline and i think that is being caused by a very slight vacuum leak. ????
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doubt it...what air pressure does this one move at?
disconnect the arm, take a piece of wire and tie the wastegate closed so it cannot be opened...watch the boost gauge and let off when it hits 25 psi...if it hits 25, then we have a boost control problem...if it stays at 23, then we have another problem
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23 lbs with wired shut ???
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so that says that there is either an exhaust leak, or, the puck is not sealing, or, the turbo is bad. If you take the hose off the turbo inlet and grab the shaft of the compressor, does it have any undue motion side to side, or any perceptible move in and out?
Does the wheel spin easily?
When you looked at the puck, did it have a nice ring around it where it sealed when closed, or did it show signs of leaking on one side or the other? You might try putting a very thin film of grease (like paper thin) around the edge of the hole and then close the puck to see if the grease transfers to the puck all the way around
What do you think, Brad?
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I guess Brad does not think, he just does! :D
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Guess so :icon_lol: The puck looked like it was very good. I didnt see any smoke leaks when I checked the exhaust but at this point I think I'm going to pull the headers, stick some 80 grit to my steel tablesaw bed and sand both flat and reinstall with new gaskets. The pipe that goes under and up, any recomendations for getting the best seal there?
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Do u have a stethoscope they are cheap and good for finding vacuum and exhaust leaks I have had good success with remflex gaskets and troublesome header flanges that where warped.
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http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-69913.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-69913.html)
That's what I use I add a plastic T and a long piece of tubing to check the header at the cross over and scourer the engine for vacuum leaks you will be amazed at how easy it is to pinpoint even a small leak.
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I don't use gaskets. If a smoke test does not show a leak, it ain't leaking.
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Steve, I think it can be incredibly difficult...at times...to diagnose a problem if you're not physically there. I've had guys tell me what they THINK is wrong with their car...but when they get to the track and I hop in the passengers seat...it's something entirely different.
As Steve says...check the turbo for in and out play...which must be ZERO...it can have some side to side play. I'm prolly the most anal person on the planet when it comes to making sure I have ZERO pre turbo exhaust leaks. Yes I know Steve :D...the factory never used header gaskets...but I do...torqued to factory specs. I use an RJC turbo/header gasket...with NEW studs and nuts...readily available at any exhaust shop. I also use NEW exhaust flange studs and nuts...and SLOWLY tighten them up EVENLY. I use a thin smear of orange sealer on the puck...to check for alignment. Orange is easy to see...for an old fart like me. I have no problem spooling this 6262 with my AC 16930 convertor. PL had me leaving the line last week at 3450 RPM's...with no tuning...and a few seconds of spool time.
This is a long shot...but happens more often than what you think. Norbs with his S1 car...Fred with his S2 car...and Jamaican Paul with his S2 car all had a hard time picking up the revs...and were down on HP...and had a hard time spooling. I mentioned to Norbs the cam on each car could be retarded. After 2 years Norbs finally found out his was retarded God knows how much. Jamaican Paul dropped a bolt down the cam sensor hole...and had to pull the timing cover to get it out...and lo and behold...the dots weren't lined up. Fred put a video up of his timing chain...and it had about four inches of play in it. I tip my hat to you Steve...cuz ya' got more patience than I have. :D
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thats what i thought also but here's the pickle I'm stuck with. The puck closes well, I put chalk line chalk on it and pushed it closed and it left a perfect outline on the housing maybe an 1/8 inch overlap, so its good. The turbo spins super freely and has no play at all so the only thing left is a leak? I dont get it but its the only thing I havent taken off and looked to see if i can see anyplace where it shows any signs of a leak.
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Brad, I am with you all the way. I wish I had kept all the emails over the past ten years from people asking for help. Tragic-Comedy.
Okay, to this problem. How much boost did you get out of the original turbo?
And, do a compression test and tell us the compression for each cylinder. Crank it up, let it run a few seconds to get some oil on the cylinder walls and turn it off before it gets so hot you will get burned by a pipe. Disconnect the cam sensor, hold the gas wide open, and crank it over 6-7 times for each cylinder. Write the compression down and go to the next.
I usually take all the plugs out before I start, but it is not absolutely required.