IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: SuperSix on July 24 2013, 11:46:12 AM
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Is a good wideband a valuable tool for tuning a new engine install? Or are they best suited for cars that see mostly track time?
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It's good to have PERIOD!
They aren't just for track tuning, they can also help with gas mileage, watching trends for anomalies, making cool looking graphs on powerlogger, and dragging in bitches.
Bitches love widebands.
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Bitches love them?
/me clicks "Order Now" button.
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The more I play with them...the less use I find for them
If I were tuning something that could be adjusted throughout the rpm band for all loads, then yes.
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The more I play with them...the less use I find for them
If I were tuning something that could be adjusted throughout the rpm band for all loads, then yes.
Widebands or bitches? :rofl:
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both
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Steve has 99 problems, but a bitch ain't one.
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Not any more...got the bitches out of my life but I have a couple of damn nice friends
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Whoooooooooooo! Weeded out the riff-raff.
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The more I play with them...the less use I find for them
If I were tuning something that could be adjusted throughout the rpm band for all loads, then yes.
Do you say that because the performance and efficiancy gains are generally very minimal or not enough to usually amount to anything, in (most) our applications?
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non existant as far as I am concerned...th ink about it...how do you tune for max performance... there are no magic numbers that are "right"
You tune til you see some knock retard and then add a little fuel beyond the point where it goes away for safety.
How do you tune for maximum mpg? You keep leaning it out until it surges lightly going up a hill. Then you add some fuel until the surge goes away plus a little more to account for ambient conditions.
Now if you have a programmable system with a 3d fueling map, a wideband can help you fill in the blanks between specific points, but on the average car with the factory ecm....nope
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but what about when running at higher boost with alky or race gas?
at higher boost levels, when margin of error gets more and more critical.... any ability to adjust the fuel equation (tt or similiar chip, adj fpr, maf translator, nozzles, injector sizes, etc.... could be aided by a wideband that is showing you much more finite info than a 02 sensor?
or am I going way overboard with my logic? lol!
You may end up causing me to sell my wide band from my 84 instead of transferring it to my 87. lol :chin:
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You are going to drown in that logic/
Alky actually gives you more tolerance from my experience and if you add 2% more fuel with a programmable chip...that is close to 0.2 A/F
Again, there are no magic numbers! You tune to the edge of detonation and then add a little bit back in...say 2-3% on the street and 1-2% on the strip where ambient conditions are generally more constant.
The street covers a lot more varying conditions so the margin should be larger, imo.
I have seen a couple of cases in the past year where the fuel pump was failing but the owners were just adding more alky without wondering why they needed more alky and were looking at the wb and calling it good. I noticed the factory o2s were looking strange even tho the wb was saying it was the same a/f as before.
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Unlike most people I do have accessible fuel maps (aka VE tables) in all of my cars so a WB02 is a must for dialing in the needs of an engine.
For the casual guy who doesn't have any interest in being a mad scientist it isn't required past the point of initial tune setup as Steve indicated. A WBO2 is a tool, and like any tool it is only as useful as the guy using it.
Same deal with pressure transducers.
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Grudge racing my car I set it up to run 11.5...and for bracket racing 7.1 for the Sportsman class. All I use is narrow band. WB isn't a magic elixir. This is what I've witnessed over the years. Most are tuning only for high gear...and at the top of the track is where most engines let go cuz they're at their leanest. If you're not tuning for low gear...then you're leaving a shitload on the table. This is my thot. Let the turbo/boost and the 3.42's haul you down the track for high gear. Leave Erics chip on the default settings...and make a run with PL. Come back to the pits and have a look at the 02's for low gear...1st and 2nd. What you'll see...is pig rich. Pull the 02's down below 800 for low gear...and watch the car haul it's ass through the 1/8th. Add a little timing to low gear...and then make a run. It'll sink your eyes in the back of your head. The other thing...is get some seat time practising launching.
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makes sense to me then! :cheers:
We need to control each injector seperatly, and have a wide band on each cylinder exhaust port, to get the most out of a wide band?
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No....not unless you are a millionaire engine building/tuning company
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I wonder how bad these are - look how cheap the sensor/integrated controller is:
http://14point7.com/ (http://14point7.com/)
I still think the AFX is the best choice but if one is going the cheap route...
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makes sense to me then! :cheers:
We need to control each injector seperatly, and have a wide band on each cylinder exhaust port, to get the most out of a wide band?
You`ve been hanging out with Norbs.
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I think he has been reading too many ads and listening to all the guys that don't know anything about tuning posting that you need one to tune.... :)
IF, you have a chip that can be driven closed loop by a wb, then you might be able to justify having one, but, if you have a street car, don't bet on going any faster. Also, it only sets the a/f to what you typed in and does not give you the flexibility to vary a/f versus rpm and load. AND, you still have to determine what is the optimum a/f....and how do you do that?
Just like with a factory narrow band...lean as possible without detonation plus a desired safety factor.
I think some have been led to believe that there is something magical about a wb and they do not have to know how to tune because it does it for them or they think because Joe runs 10.6-1 and he goes high nines...that is the number they should dial in to run 11.8 times.
I use the SD chips which can be driven by a wb, but after twice having the wb stop working when I was wot, I decided to set the car up and then go open loop so I did not go from a 10.8 to a 14.7 in the blink of my eye.
Then we complicate things by having an alky set up...alky affects the a/f so if you spray twice as much alky with your dual nozzle set up as your buddy with a single nozzle set up, and set your a/f's the same because you believe in magic numbers one of you may have an awakening. Straight methanol may make the most power at an a/f of 4.2 whereas straight gas may make the most power at 10.6 in blown situations. So what is the magic number if you are spraying a mix? (there is something to be said for using lambda)
You still have to tune the car!
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Like Steve's saying, a wb really won't help unless you are really pushing the limits of the car. In my case I need 1 because it's a carbed car. I don't have the same control over the tune like an SFI car has and have to physically change jets, hangers, and needles to change the tune. There is also a new controller from J&S electronics that will allow for better control of boost and timing rather than rely on the original system. I found out about just recently and have looked at it seriously. It's similar to a 2 step that some are using but it's for a boosted carb application. :rock: Full control of timing per lb of boost and individual timing retard for each cylinder along with a knock count for each cylinder so you know which cylinder is getting the lowest advance or retard on the timing. :cheers:
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yep, wb's are great for carbed car tuning...Some of the modern cars make it a lot easier with the screw in bleeds and jets.
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makes sense to me then.
Let me just say I have put the wide band on 2 of my cars in the past. My logic was that being that since the stock O2 sensor is not very accurate for anything other than 14.7:1 afr, ... The wide band makes it alot easier to see where I need to "fill in the gaps", like you mentioned earlier.
I have considered it more or less, a good tuning tool for dummies (something I do qualify for :rock: )
but I am realising the points you make, Steve. I have very modest and attainable goals for my 87. I'm gonna have questions when I install alky, turbo and converter on this one
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Just saw this come up in my spammed email from Amazon. Looks really cool:
http://www.plxdevices.com/Wideband-O2-Touch-Screen-Multi-Guage-p/897346002719.htm (http://www.plxdevices.com/Wideband-O2-Touch-Screen-Multi-Guage-p/897346002719.htm)
Especially for $188. I might buy one to try if the Buick sells this weekend because the LC-1 in the car will be gone.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U1J1MCK?redirect=true&ref_=pe_344980_169888390_em_1p_14_ti (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U1J1MCK?redirect=true&ref_=pe_344980_169888390_em_1p_14_ti)
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that's pretty slick! Price is certainly more affordable these days for what you get
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nice find Mike that's very cool
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Just saw this come up in my spammed email from Amazon. Looks really cool:
http://www.plxdevices.com/Wideband-O2-Touch-Screen-Multi-Guage-p/897346002719.htm (http://www.plxdevices.com/Wideband-O2-Touch-Screen-Multi-Guage-p/897346002719.htm)
Especially for $188. I might buy one to try if the Buick sells this weekend because the LC-1 in the car will be gone.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U1J1MCK?redirect=true&ref_=pe_344980_169888390_em_1p_14_ti (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U1J1MCK?redirect=true&ref_=pe_344980_169888390_em_1p_14_ti)
Good price. I paid $230 for my AFX with the NTK sensor, which I thought was a smoking good deal at the time. They sure have gone up now! :O
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What does it spew out the serial port(s)?
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Widebands are nice they provide data - but it's what you do with the data that makes the difference.
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I guess the Ballenger Motorsports AFR500 equivalent of the AFX is $350 USD w NKT sensor
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2337 (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2337)
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$450US with the calibration grade sensor
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...
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Widebands are nice they provide data - but it's what you do with the data that makes the difference.
Bingo...we have a winner. I've had several TR guys back to my trailer to go over a PL log of a run I just made. They had no clue of the PL data they were looking at...or what it meant. I got a 'deer in the headlights' look when I showed them how to adjust Erics chip.
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Bingo...we have a winner. I've had several TR guys back to my trailer to go over a PL log of a run I just made. They had no clue of the PL data they were looking at...or what it meant. I got a 'deer in the headlights' look when I showed them how to adjust Erics chip.
You mean to tell me you can adjust Eric's chip! :chin: :icon_lol: