IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: phil_long on January 31 2013, 10:54:39 AM
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I've been looking for explanations for my issue, but have yet to find one. I havent touched anything(settings, etc) within my chip. During all my testing and tuning the car ran great. It still runs good, but if i stand on it from a dead stop, the car only makes approximately 12 lbs of boost or so. When i ease into, it might make about 15 lbs, but if i push all the way down to the floor during the "easing into it' it drops back down to about 12 lbs or so. Pissing me off seeing that I haven't been tampering with anything. Thanks for any advice or suggestions. I have intentions to buy a billet vacuum block too, because I like the way they look, and I'm eliminating any possibilites of leaks.
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are you using the stock wastegate solenoid? If so, pull the hose off, step on the gas and, if the boost shoots up, take your foot off the gas instantly before the boost gets too high.
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I suppose I am. Lol. Everything is stock to my knowledge. I'll take a look and see if i can find that hose you're referring to. Should be the only hose running to the wastegate puck right? Correct if wrong. Thanks
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There's actually three hoses.... and you NEED to replace them yesterday!!! Those little things can send your head gaskets into the stratosphere when they get old enough.
There's one hose that runs from the compressor housing to a plastic wye fitting. From there you have a hose that runs to the wastegate and one that runs to the boost control solenoid. The science behind the circuit is two fold....
Boost pressure opens the wastegate to dump exhaust energy around the turbo. As the boost comes up the wastegate opens proportionally to slowly vent boost until you're at full pressure and the wastegate has found it's 'happy place' (hi-tech engineering term)
The solenoid acts as a 'signal dump' and holds the wastegate closed (or at least more closed-er) until the last second then lets it fling to it's happy place. The benefit is you put more exhaust energy into the turbo during spool up.
The other is that it allows the ECM to vent signal and raise the manifold pressure above the wastegates spring tension.
Notice during spool up, the solenoid is in dump mode. After that, it drops down to a preset PWM signal.
If it were me trying to shake down that system, the first thing I would do is run a brand new hose between the compressor and the wastegate. (search term: "tuner style". Don't forget to safetywire or ziptie the ends) and see what the boost does. Then reintroduce solenoid circuit and observe the changes to boost levels and spool up speed.
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Oh yeah, the rule of thumb with vacuum hoses is..... If you rub the hose and your finger turns black... replace it yesterday!!
Never a bad idea to blow/suck through the check valves too. giggity.
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the hose that connects to the wastegate solenoid...tho ught I said that
guess the translation did not come out right :)
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I'll check the hoses and their condition. I thought they were ok when i visually inspected them, but it was all visual. Im sure black will come off of them seeing that the turbo is passing oil and its a bit messy around there. Lol. And, from what im reading, only one of the hoses will be connected?
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Yes. Run one piece of new hose from the turbo compressor's brass outlet to the wastegate.
Then see what your boost is and how fast it spools up.
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the hose that connects to the wastegate solenoid...tho ught I said that
guess the translation did not come out right :)
Your method is scary and I wanted to use pictures! And through out some solenoid tech while I was at it :)
orrrrrrrr..... I was on the couch with the Buick's laptop and did feel like getting out from under the covers! (it's one of those two :) )
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nothing scary about it...if the boost goes past the 12-15 psi point, take your foot off the gas....
then either find another solenoid or put a manual controller on it.
If it does not go up as it should, then we look for something else
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Makes sense. I'll check it out. Unplug the hose that runs to the solenoid. Floor it, hopefully it goes to 17lbs.
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Stop, you did not read what I wrote! It might go to 30 psi because there is nothing left to control the boost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I said take your foot off the gas immediately if the boost goes beyond 15 psi!!!!!
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Stop, you did not read what I wrote! It might go to 30 psi because there is nothing left to control the boost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I said take your foot off the gas immediately if the boost goes beyond 15 psi!!!!!
told you it was scary :P
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LOL...only if one does not follow instructions! If people would only take the time to understand how stuff works instead of googling for similar problems, it would be a lot easier!
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LOL...only if one does not follow instructions! If people would only take the time to understand how stuff works instead of googling for similar problems, it would be a lot easier!
A lot easier--YES
But less Fun.
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Hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I read it, but I sometimes see 15 lbs now, so Idk what I'd be lookin for in that case. Funniest response I've ever seen. Lmao!!! Glad I read this tho. Lol
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Steve's response is priceless. It shows that he cares about the buick. Lol. SO, if the needle goes BEYOND 15 lbs, LIFT. Lol.
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:D You have a point there
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yes, lift! without the solenoid, the turbo has nothing to tell it to stop making boost so about the time you begin to feel, "Oh, S***!", take your foot off the gas.
If it does not make more boost, then we have to think harder.
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Lol. Cool
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Lol. Cool
Phil...listen to Steve when he says lift...or you'll overboost it just like I did last year. It only takes a split second for the boost to go through the roof. I overboosted it so bad it twisted the DS head. You can here my girlfriend in the background yelling "what the hell was that?!" I told her it was the sound of five hundred dollars. Funny stuff.
Brad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHtT8SfMXC4#ws)
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Damn!!!! How did that end up happening though? Im sure you didn't just pull the hose and floor it like my dumbass was about to do. Lol. Thanks for extra tip though
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I run mine tuner style...a hose from the port to the actuator...and the hose collapsed. KABOOM!
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Within the time you JUST responded, I just did the test!! Scariest thing I have ever experienced!! The friggin boost shot up to 20 lbs in less than half a second!! Damn. Scantool showed 886 with no knock but i lifted ASAP. Lol.
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Ya' got some info for the boys. Stick around...and they'll give ya' your next course of action.
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Fa sho!! :icon_smile:
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Fa sho!! :icon_smile:
While you're waiting...watc h me beat the snot outta this Mustang. This is a 16 lb run with Erics chip on the default settings. Steve and I were talking behind the scenes about low gear tuning...and how rich Erics chip is in low gear. Don't believe me?...watch the black smoke out the tail pipe in low gear.
Brad 1st run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3m9owPz6sw#ws)
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one of these days, you gonna have to get that car leaned down so it can make some power...but, be nice to get the valve springs replaced first.
Sounds like the wastegate solenoid has died. Can't get the originals anymore unless you can find a used one. I was thinking Mike Licht at Full throttle speed was selling a replacement solenoid.
the alternative is to use a manual boost controller which will make it spool faster...or simply run a hose from the actuator to the compressor housing and shorten the wastegate rod to set the boost as Brad mentioned above....tuner style...downsi de to this is a bit slower spool but that might not be a bad thing on the street.
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that sucks. where would i look for a manual controller? Thanks for the help. Valve springs are going in soon. My car is pig rich in 1st gear for sure, but it leans out afterwards. I didnt see a way tune for FP in all gears BUT 1st. just has a 1st gear only setting.
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Erics instructions are here. You won't be able to tune low gear without PL or DS. Guessing isn't good.
http://www.turbotweak.com/turbotweakinstructions57.pdf (http://www.turbotweak.com/turbotweakinstructions57.pdf)
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Manual controller is available from RJC.
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Read the instructions.. ..
set the fuel pressure to 43 psi with the hose off the regulator. Normally that is close enuf. Put the hose back on the regulator.
Warm the car up and with the boost at 16-17 psi in your case, make a third gear run with the shifter in 3rd as fast as you can go...close to 100 mph would be nice if possible, but whatever you can do.... adjust the wot fueling up or down to get the o2s at the end of your run close to 790-800 on the O2s. (if the numbers are higher than that by very much, drop the number from 128 to 125. Make another run, the numbers should be lower. If they still need to come down, take 2-3 out so you are 123-122. Try again. If the numbers were lower than 790-800, then increase from 128 to 131 to add fuel and try again and so on.
Now, try low gear. Again with a hot engine, watch the numbers in low...or get someone else to watch them. If they are above 800-810, then go down in the first gear setting from 128 to 125 and run it...if still high, pull another three numbers until you get it down around 800
before adjusting the chip, set the sm to the AF's and make sure those numbers are 5-6 at idle and go up to at least 245 at wot throttle as the rpms come up-think you have a translator so that should be working write.
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Phil if you had Eric burn your chip for your exact combination... then the 02's are gonna be higher than 810-820 in 1st. I'm seeing them upwards of 850. Here's some real world numbers to get my car to run the 7.1 class.
1st gear fuel-115
1st gear timing-134
3rd gear fuel-122
3rd gear timing-132
Boost pressure-22
Phil...don't play with the timing...leave it alone.
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I seem to recall the solenoid off one of the GM Diesels works?
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...or simply run a hose from the actuator to the compressor housing and shorten the wastegate rod to set the boost as Brad mentioned above....tuner style...
the hose that connects to the wastegate...th o ught I said that
guess the translation did not come out right :)
:P
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Earl, you def said that. It just seems as if it would take "longer" shortening the rod, get back in the car, drive to see where it's at, lenghten it, drive the car, see where it's at, etc. It seems like a long process seeing that im as "cautious" as i am. I reset the chip tonight before going out to a bar, and i DEFINITELY had the car running too rich before. I havent adjusted any settings, and the cars runs a lot better WOT(still having the same boost issues of course) but all in all, the numbers look more "normal." Around 800-809 WOT in 1st gear. Seeing that the boost isn't locked in at 17 lbs, i figure that's the reason that the numbers look as well as they do. Im sure at 17 lbs those numbers would appear more lean. Thanks for all the suggestions. Now I just need instructions on adjusting the WG rod. Thanks again
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When running 'tuner style' the wastegate rod is the boost. period. When troubleshootin g systems that can cause the crank to fly out the bottom of the engine it's best to follow the KISS rule when possible.
Keep going up with boost (and fueling) until knock starts hinting around. Once you've found the boost level you car will put up with, back off a pound or so and lock it down. THEN add a working solenoid system and get your spool up time back.
OR... if your car knocks the tires loose all the time during spoolup just leave it tuner style. (keep the solenoid plugged into the harness so you don't throw a code)
Think of it this way. ECM controlled boost has to start at the wastegate setting and go up from there. The computer can never set the boost lower than the wastegate rod setting.
I think the general rule of thumb is that one turn = @1# of boost.
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Phil...if the chip is burned for 17 psi, it should be set to deliver the correct amount of fuel for 17 psi as you got it other than for small changes to make it near perfect.
If the boost is changed to 12 psi, then it will take quite a bit less fuel because you just cut back on the air going into the engine so then the car will be very rich unless you program the chip to take out enuf fuel to be right at 12 psi. If you crank the boost back up to 17 psi, you will have to add fuel back into the chip via programming... you will not mess with the fuel pressure-just reprogram the chip
this is an example of what I meant when I mentioned learning how things work...
As far as throwing a code, stock chips will do that when the solenoid is disconnected, but, the TurboTweak chip has had that code deactivated.
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I understand how it works. I'll leave everything as is for now until i get the other things sorted out(valve springs, motor mount) because I see KR when I shouldn't. I'm chasing multiple issues right now.
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it will be a lot better when you sort out all the basic issues and then start tuning for better performance... . :)
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thanks
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http://rjcracing.com/product/boost-controller/ (http://rjcracing.com/product/boost-controller/)
So, I've read this a million times, and it's pretty straight forward, but I think my understanding of the factory WG rod itself is where I'm getting confused. What tool is needed to adjust it? Thanks in advance. The only wastegate I've seen in person is my cousin Charles external WG, and his controller is in the car next to the driver seat.
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Some words are possibly mispelled, and sentences dont make sense. Like the statement at the top. "AS BOOST ENTERS IT IS THE PRESSURE IS blocked from reaching the actuator until a set adjustable pressure then it "pulses" letting boost presser through to the actuator to control boost. I just quoted this and put it in Caps lock.
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Here's my understanding: this RJC piece is a replacement of the factory solenoid, and allows faster spool up due to the different design of "controlling" the boost level. The "Y" piece is eliminated, and the actual "controlling" on the AMOUNT of boost that's ran is done by shortening and lengthining the WG rod. This piece ISN"T mandatory, as I can just run it tuner style, but the spool up time will be a little slower. Am I gathering this correctly?
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I would get the car running extremely well before worrying about gimmicks. Anytime I'm troubleshootin g a system that giving me fits, the first thing I do it eliminate all the variables I can and get everything as basic as I can. Do you have a threaded wastegate rod or a stock one?
The idea of faster spool time sounds nice on paper but if you're already blowing the tires away will it really help in the real world?
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That's a good point. Had I not experienced that amazing feel of the boost coming on that quick i could care less. Lol. As far as threaded wastegate rod or stock, im going to assume stock. Where would the threads be located? Would they be visible before adjusting anything? And, you are right. Get the car running well 1st. Valve springs and motor mount next. Thanks Earl.
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I think it was the amount of boost that caused the big grin not the rate of boost rise over time.
Look where the wastegate rods hooks to the arm on the turbo. If it's threaded it'll have a female end (giggity) with a jam nut (giggity) locking it in place. Normally you can see threads on the rod itself if it's adjustable.
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Ah. Ok. I'll check
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Hi Phil, If you look at the picture one is non-adjustment and the other one is homemade adjustable WG rod.
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So this part actually turns when lenghtening or shortening the rod?
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remove the clip that holds it onto the wastegate arm and then shorten it or lengthen it by screwing the end in or out of the turnbuckle.... I use a small alligator clamp instead of the frigging c clip that came on it from the factory...much easier to deal with
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So this part actually turns when lenghtening or shortening the rod?
It would if you had an adjustable wastegate. Looks like you get to do some custom fabbing or just order an adjustable unit. (hey look, I signed off on buying an upgrade part!)
That being said, have you replaced all the rubber vac lines and done a spring cleaning?! :)
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Spring cleaning yes, vac lines yes, but I'm going to re-do them again when I get that vacuum block. Some of the lines i used could be smaller, but due to zip ties, they're "safe."
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Phil, Just be careful when removing the c-clip that holds the WG arm to the little stud. As I try to remove the c-clip from the little stud, it broke off from the lever to which was spot welded. As you can see in the photo I had to drill a hole in the turbo lever arm, and also drill into the center of the little stud. I drill upside down to the turbo lever arm as I didn't want to remove the whole turbo for one hole. Assembled with red threaded locktite, 10/32 S/S screw. The next picture shows all is repaired, WG rod modified and all put together.
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Pretty crafty. I hope i dont run into this issue. Lol.
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I think after the valve springs, billet vacuum block, and new vacuum hoses, im gonna save up for an external WG setup. I have this Alky kit laying around that I want to try, and I want to control boost from within the cockpit of my jet. :D
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so you really want to complicate things.
You said the other day that you understood that the more air you add by increasing boost, the more fuel you had to add to the chip.
Therefore you understand that every time you change the boost from the cockpit, that you will have to reprogram the chip to get the fuel needed for the new boost level.
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Lol. Not complicate, but demonstrate my understanding by getting my car sound and running strong the way it is before any major upgrades. The way that I would do it, if I had the oppurtunity, would be raise the FP to the future amount of boost I would want to run after getting the car dialed in. As far as the Alky is concerned, I'd just have you or Earl come to Saint Louis and tune. :rock:
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Or Ed. :D
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why do you want to raise the fuel pressure? that is why god invented programmable chips!
hell, why do you want to change the boost levels?
I think it is time to leave you with Earl or Ed :)
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Im talking about the future Steve. I do want to eventually get faster. Raising the Fp through the chip is what I was referring to. Finally tired of me huh? I understand. This car is getting on my nerves just as much as im getting on yours, or anyone else who gets sick of reading my posts. But this is why beer and alcohol exists!!! :cheers:
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There are no wires connected to the fuel pressure regulator so there is no way that the ecm can control fuel pressure. :)
The ecm controls the duty cycle of the solenoids inside the injectors which gives it the ability to change the time the injectors spray (pulsewidth) when triggered on a given firing sequence.
The chip controls the fuel curve instructions and the programming varies this as I understand it.
The fuel pressure remains where it was set and varies with vacuum and boost.
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Damn, you got me. Lol. This is good learning. So, when one increases the boost manually, the FP is suppose to rise 1 to 1 with it. So, in essense, i wont have to touch anything. I be tripping every now and then. Thanks for keeping me balance. makes sense.
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You should quiz me. I promise I understand!!!!!! half the time i dont be thinking before I type. Kind of like being so excited to get in the shower with a lady and forgetting to take off your socks due to your intent to impress her because you already ready!! :D
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I think it is time to leave you with Earl or Ed :)
Probably going to have to be Ed. I don't think I can tune around iffy boost control over the interewebz.... . and there's already lots of "Whats the best head gasket" treads out there.
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Damn, you got me. Lol. This is good learning. So, when one increases the boost manually, the FP is suppose to rise 1 to 1 with it. So, in essense, i wont have to touch anything. I be tripping every now and then. Thanks for keeping me balance. makes sense.
Not exactly....the more boost you run, the richer the A/F needs to be so you need to run richer at 25 psi than you do at 17 psi. Therefore, if you buy a chip that is programmed for approx 25 psi, it will most likely be blowing black smoke at 17. So you will need to program the chip to cut down the pulsewidths so it is putting out less fuel....or vice versa if you have a chip programmed for 17 and want to run 25.
I suspect that 95% of us that run alky, set the boost close to 25 psi, tune for that, and never touch it again. After all, you don't have to use 25 # unless you want to plant your right foot on the floor at every light.