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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 01:38:11 PM

Title: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 01:38:11 PM
Hey guys, my steering wheel has a lot of play in it since i had the car(i thought all old cars had play in the wheel).  Anywho, here of late, my has been shaking at certain speeds, and Im starting to think that I need to do some work on the suspension.  I know for a fact that I need springs because someone said something to me a while ago(car wasnt running at the time so i ignored it). I need to know what I should purchase so I know Im safe on the road. Please keep in mind that I just spent a lot money getting the car fixed, so my funds are limited right now. Lol. what would be the first purchase for some of you?  thanks
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: SuperSix on October 17 2012, 01:46:55 PM
A pistol
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: SuperSix on October 17 2012, 01:48:40 PM
How many miles on the chassis? Do you know if any front suspension components have been replaced?

Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 02:20:20 PM
A pistol
Hahahahaha.  Have one of those.
Im gonna assume that all is stock Supersix. I'd estimate roughly 150k on the body? I wish I knew. Sorry I cant be more help.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Just a Six? on October 17 2012, 02:38:51 PM
Go to your local front end shop & ask for a free estimate (maybe it's $25?) & see what they list as being weak. Personally I don't touch front ends or transmissions & a breakdown of needed work can come in handy for your buddy that does work on them. They usually credit it back if you do the work there. If not you still have a good idea whats going on for small $$
 
If the steering wheel is loose inside you can do that with $20 in tools. I have a few writeups with pics I stole from here & there when we did mine & modded the column shifter for a T Brake which I still have never used except playing in the parking lot. 
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 03:43:05 PM
Thats a great idea.  Guess i could go and do that.  Thanks.  Let you know what they say
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: TRICKSIXPA on October 17 2012, 05:35:22 PM
A shakey steering wheel is usually driving on tires that need to be balanced. You will notice it when your driving on the highway. First thing I would recommend would be shocks and springs. All those bushings and ball joints on the front control arms add up really fast. Labor is killer if your getting it done at a shop and most places will charge you extra to allign the front end cause of the extra work needed. Some will charge you but not properly adjust the alignment. Good luck
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Top Speed on October 17 2012, 06:19:55 PM
Probably the ball joints and also most likely the upper control arm bushing by the down pipe.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 06:55:58 PM
A shakey steering wheel is usually driving on tires that need to be balanced. You will notice it when your driving on the highway. First thing I would recommend would be shocks and springs. All those bushings and ball joints on the front control arms add up really fast. Labor is killer if your getting it done at a shop and most places will charge you extra to allign the front end cause of the extra work needed. Some will charge you but not properly adjust the alignment. Good luck
:(
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 06:57:37 PM
I figured the alignement and/or wheels would've been fine because the car doesn't pull left or right. I priced some parts and yes, they do add up fast.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Pyro6 on October 17 2012, 07:15:43 PM
First thing you want to do is a "dry park" test. With the car on the ground, sneak under the car while somebody does you a favor by shaking the steering wheel back and forth like a NASCAR driver does on a caution lap to clean his tires. Watch all the tie rod ends, idler arm, and pitman arm connections. Just cause it isn't a joint it doesn't mean it can't have play. Next, floor jack each lower control arm as far past the spring perch toward the wheel as you can. Get that same schmuck that is doing you a favor to pry moderately under the tire and you watch the upper control arm bushings and both ball joints. Zero play is the spec. The lower ball joints are wear indicator but rarely do they cause a shimmy. Like mentioned earlier, I would want to be assured ALL tires are balanced and not "out-of-round" or a belt shifted. As also can happen: take a torque wrench to all lugs. I like 90 ft lbs. By now you should know IF you need to buy something.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Pyro6 on October 17 2012, 07:17:40 PM
Forgot, rule of thumb is the only way an alignment can cause a shimmy is if the caster is excessively positive. Rarely happens.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 17 2012, 08:02:26 PM
Got it. Thanks. I'll probably take it to a shop.  Wouldnt want to take any chances of me missing anything
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: earlbrown on October 18 2012, 02:06:17 AM
I'd make sure the steering box is adjusted too. That's a nice and free.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 18 2012, 03:14:51 PM
I'd make sure the steering box is adjusted too. That's a nice and free.
Unsure of the location of that? And, how do I know if it's adjusted properly?
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 18 2012, 03:18:33 PM
and where do you guys suggest buying some shocks and springs from?  I know im way overdue for those
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on October 18 2012, 03:53:26 PM
Bilstien shocks...expen sive, but worth it...If the car is sitting level side to side, I would not worry about springs...If you like good handling, I would replace both sway bars

In the end, good tires probably affect handling the most....not BFG TA's for sure
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 18 2012, 05:05:48 PM
Expensive. :hmm  Lol
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on October 18 2012, 06:02:06 PM
yep, but they last forever and they are really good
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 18 2012, 06:11:44 PM
thats cool. I just got home, and driving home, the car seems sluggish.  I think i might change the plugs and wires again. the shaking that Im experiencing I believe is coming from a miss.  I experienced this before the timing chain issue, which is why i believe its a plug and/or wire.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on October 18 2012, 06:49:42 PM
instead of throwing money at it and hoping...

If you can see/feel it miss at idle...remove one injector connector at a time.  See if there are one, or two that do not make the miss worse.  If nothing gets worse when you remove it, then those may be the cylinders that are responsible for the miss....then you can try to figure out if it is wires, plugs, or the coil pack
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: SuperSix on October 18 2012, 09:04:19 PM
I just got Moog 5606 springs, and some mid range Monroe shocks.. I put onr of the new springs next to the old springs, and the height was the same. Meh.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 19 2012, 08:32:11 AM
instead of throwing money at it and hoping...

If you can see/feel it miss at idle...remove one injector connector at a time.  See if there are one, or two that do not make the miss worse.  If nothing gets worse when you remove it, then those may be the cylinders that are responsible for the miss....then you can try to figure out if it is wires, plugs, or the coil pack
It's amazing that I know this stuff already and never apply it. I gotta get outta that habit of just thinking and buying before analyzing. Thanks
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 19 2012, 08:34:51 AM
I just got Moog 5606 springs, and some mid range Monroe shocks.. I put onr of the new springs next to the old springs, and the height was the same. Meh.
I been reading this 17 page long thread that I searched for yesterday about a guy who went with some Moog springs.  The last two digits were different. It was a higher 56xx.  They dropped the car about half an inch i believe. Exactly what im looking for. My car sits low now, which i like, but the springs are the only reason it's sitting that way.  Lol. They are def done for
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on October 19 2012, 10:10:13 AM
How can you tell?
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on October 19 2012, 11:15:47 AM
there's something underneath the spring to try and provide support. It was there when the car was purchased. 
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on October 19 2012, 01:39:55 PM
You mean the spring pad?
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on October 19 2012, 01:43:32 PM
Like this?  http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-GM-F-Body/Suspension/Springs-Accessories/Front-Upper-Spring-Isolators.html (http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-GM-F-Body/Suspension/Springs-Accessories/Front-Upper-Spring-Isolators.html)

should be on the top
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 28 2012, 09:01:20 PM
Damn, i guess i missed this.  Sorry.  And yes, that. The springs are squeeking too.  Im ready to buy shocks and springs though.  Bilstein was it?  Im excited
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 28 2012, 09:15:18 PM
And i dont see any frigging Bilstein shocks on Rockauto.   :x
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: daveismissing on November 28 2012, 09:49:53 PM
And i dont see any frigging Bilstein shocks on Rockauto.   :x
And be prepared for sticker "shock"   :rofl:


No, really  :O
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: $1987 GN$ on November 29 2012, 12:33:23 AM
And i dont see any frigging Bilstein shocks on Rockauto.   :x
And be prepared for sticker "shock"   :rofl:


No, really  :O

Front and rear.
I think CYBER week on too.

http://www.ajusa.com/Bilstein-24-009492-Monotube-Shock-Absorber-ab0203.html (http://www.ajusa.com/Bilstein-24-009492-Monotube-Shock-Absorber-ab0203.html)
http://www.ajusa.com/Bilstein-24-009294-Monotube-Shock-Absorber-ab01ff.html (http://www.ajusa.com/Bilstein-24-009294-Monotube-Shock-Absorber-ab01ff.html)

AJ___
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 29 2012, 08:20:26 AM
Thanks guys.  I thought I was crazy when i seen the price of these things on Autozone's website. :icon_eyes:  Oh well
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on November 29 2012, 09:53:09 AM
they are worth it
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 29 2012, 10:42:13 AM
I would prefer a stiff suspension(if that makes sense).  Hopefully these are a step in the right direction.  Should i do the fronts first?  Or wait to do all at once.  Thanks
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on November 29 2012, 11:40:46 AM
won't hurt to do the fronts first if you want to space the money out.  The Bilsteins will make the car much more stable and remove the floaty feeling...but, the ride wills till be good.  They won't feel worn out in six months like Monroes and such do.

You ever check your fuel pressure...or trying adding about six numbers to the wide open fueling on your chip?
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 29 2012, 04:24:21 PM
I need to do that, but before anything else, i had to find a nut for the coil/module bracket.  this morning, i got O2's of 753 with .9 KR.  I am definitely going increase the WOT fuel.  Thanks for asking. :cheers:   Im getting KR even at 0 psi tho.  I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with this car.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 29 2012, 04:24:57 PM
that was WOT in 3rd gear.  blinking 85
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on November 29 2012, 05:01:20 PM
bad engine mount causes a lot of "timing retard" problems.  I have seen bad exhaust hangers, loose AC compressor brackets, rattling tranny cooler lines, etc. also cause it.

Since you are seeing 753, just add some fuel and see if it comes up...if not, you are gonna have to use that fp gauge you bought!

Long as you have a couple bolts on the bracket, it will be good...be sure you clean up the contact points on the bracket because the bracket is the ground for the module.  I have seen several cars that ran badly and missed because someone forgot to tighten down the coil/module to the bracket, or the bracket to the engine.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 29 2012, 05:37:10 PM
Hmmm.  Thanks a lot.  I think i may be looking at a bad driver side motor mount.  When you had me put it in drive with the E-brake set, the engine lifted a bit. I see most of my knock(even at 0-2 psi) when the car violently downshifts or im in OD and I accelerate(no downshifting) and the boost shoots up. Side note, i think its amazing that the car can make damn near 15 lbs of boost in OD without dropping to 3rd.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on November 29 2012, 07:19:52 PM
yep, that kind of timing retard is almost always something worn out, or loose.

It' s a piece of cake to do the drivers side mount...and cheap!
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 30 2012, 08:23:05 AM
thats good to hear!!!  you got the car up and running yet?
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on November 30 2012, 10:00:40 AM
yeah, I am back on the challenger at the moment
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 30 2012, 10:38:14 AM
ah cool.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on November 30 2012, 02:47:08 PM
And, is it normal for our cars to lift when break torquing? just curious. Im ready to extend my learning to how you all match converters with turbos and such. Either a new thread OR a link with the info already posted. :cheers:
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on November 30 2012, 08:08:06 PM
what do you mean lift?  When you rev the engine, the crankshaft rotates clockwise when viewed from the front.  Laws of Physics say that the block will try to rotate counter clockwise in response.

If you have good engine mounts, the engine cannot move much without the drivers side of the car trying to lift up while the the passenger side tucks down a bit.  If the brakes are on, and you are revving against them in gear, this will be somewhat noticeable if you are making enuf power. If the mount is bad on the drivers side, then the engine jumps up rather than twisting the car.

This is why those engine tie down straps that are connected to the alternator bracket ear are not a good idea.   If I felt like looking, I could get you a picture of one that broke off because the bracket could not withstand the force being applied to it it as the engine tried to go counterclockwi se and the tie down bracket was resisting.

If that was not your question, chalk up to trivia.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: earlbrown on November 30 2012, 10:00:15 PM
I was thinking he meant the ass end rising up while staging.



If he meant the left rear corner raising up, we're both right :D
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on December 01 2012, 01:58:10 PM
I was thinking he meant the ass end rising up while staging.

yes, thats what i meant
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on December 01 2012, 02:13:10 PM
all of the videos of our cars I seen at the track, when staging, the car rises. 
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on December 02 2012, 10:10:35 AM
Again, it's Newton's Third Law-  For ever action there is an equal reaction


In this case, stand on the drivers side and look at the rear wheel.  It is trying to turn counterclockwi se.  That means the axle housing has to try to turn clockwise with the same amount of force that is being applied to the ground by the tire.

The axle housing is connected to the frame/body by the control arms.  As the axle housing is trying to rotate clockwise, it lifts upward on the body via the control arms causing it to lift.


Now, how it lifts the car ultimately depends upon the location of the instant center.  Rather than try to describe that in words when pictures makes it far more obvious...try this

http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/tuning-4-link.html (http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/tuning-4-link.html)

BTW, our cars have a form of four link suspension so this applies
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on December 02 2012, 12:58:51 PM
Thanks a lot Steve!!!  BTW, my cousin Charles came over yesterday, and had a chance to ride in my Buick.  I think he has the bug again!!!
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Pyro6 on December 02 2012, 03:17:22 PM
all of the videos of our cars I seen at the track, when staging, the car rises. 
I noticed that early on, even when our car wasn't running well. I haven't noticed many other cars do it like the GN's. Cool as shit though.
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on December 02 2012, 03:31:46 PM
all of the videos of our cars I seen at the track, when staging, the car rises. 
I noticed that early on, even when our car wasn't running well. I haven't noticed many other cars do it like the GN's. Cool as shit though.
def cool as shit!!
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: Steve Wood on December 02 2012, 04:55:41 PM
If Charles is getting the bug, it's probably because he did not get a flu shot
Title: Re: Front suspenion work
Post by: phil_long on December 03 2012, 01:38:12 PM
Lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!
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