IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
General => IHADAV8 Playground => Topic started by: Steve Wood on October 02 2012, 04:32:31 PM
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And discover that while I have a new in-tank harness and a new Denso pump, I don't have the usual short piece of submersible efi hose that goes between the pump and sending unit. The one that is on the Red's XP pump that has been in the car 15 or more years is getting tired and needs to be replaced...
I pretty much muddled thru the in tank harness/bulkhead connector install with no instructions by using my meter
Then I realized the filter that I ordered to go with the pump had a 45 deg bend in the inlet which kicks the end of the filter up quite a bit from the bottom of the tank...
And that I did not have any hose clamps small enuf to hold the pump body against the return tube...
So the tank is on the floor, the guts are scattered around it and I am ordering more stuff...just another day in paradise
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Damn Steve, your day sounds like my entire buick owning career!! Only difference is, you are the best at this shit so you don't like me when something goes wrong!!!
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LOL I ain't the best by far...I just bumble along and get it done...sometim es faster than others...
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Ahh!! That's why I got a foot of it (actually the only way Napa sold it ;) but that spare gas tank hose is labeled & stored neatly! Unlike the other 200 feet of Vac Hose in all sizes possible & available to buy from every store, jobber or vendor know to Mankind!! :068:
Regular Vac hose lasted all of 36 hours soaking in the gas tank until it blew apart!!
That was a Valuable Lesson!! :013:
Seems I also remember doing the same to an old 64ish? Merc (rear window was mounted on an inward angle) & was Power like all the rest of the windows! I guess it was for Convertible Wanna Be cars? That had some type of modulator on the trans that ran about 3" of Vac Hose from it to the trans. Lasted almost 36 hours hiway driving from Winnipeg to Vancouver one weekend when I was young & crazy!! Took the plates off the car & jumped on the next Greyhound Bus back home!! :icon_eyes:
I left a few $200-$300 cars without plates back in the 70's! If I knew then what I know now!!!
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LOL
Yep, there is special hose for efi cars...and then there is special hose that can be submersed for efi cars...I got both on order
and it ain't cheap for either one...
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LOL
Yep, there is special hose for efi cars...and then there is special hose that can be submersed for efi cars...I got both on order
and it ain't cheap for either one...
Think I paid with tax around $20 for the 12" peice??
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that is about right
And, I see Jegs says no eta available...in sert appropriate cursing
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so I just paid another $20 on ebay for a foot but it is in Austin so it will be here soon
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Rock Auto sells hose pretty cheap - not sure exactly what type you are looking for, though.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?parttype=6352 (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?parttype=6352)
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submersible fuel injection hose SAE 30R10
You cannot put the standard efi hose in the tank because it will rapidly come apart in the gas....the covering is not resistant.
I bought this Gates 27093 5/16" Submersible Fuel Hose
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Look at the little tit that sticks out of the fuel level float wire. (not electrical, the actual wire that the float hangs on). Buzz that as short as you can without the retainer being compromised. A small cutoff wheel would be the best way but only if the pump and screen isn't there of course.
With that fatter pump, it's a hellovalot easier with that extra mm of clearance. Also, if you use hose clamps to mount the pump, make sure to clock them where they won't interfere with the installation.
I need to drop my tank and find out why I run out of gas before I'm actually out of gas. I suspect my filter sock curled up and sucks air too early.
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My gas gauge always reads between 3/4 and overfull. Had the pump out twice and didn't see anything suspicious.
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i just always thought they were suppose to be broke
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Mine worked fine til I put the Denso in.
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did you move the float up and down while checking the resistance?
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I have 2 Walbro's & usually in spring it reads higher & then gets better each with fill up but I still don't trust it 100%. Usually there is a least 1-2 gals more than it reads so that's better than having 1-2 less than you think & running out. I have a spare hangar here but can't be bothered to change it. Not a big issue for me since it's not driven all that much.
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Pretty sure the impedance numbers can be found somewhere to test the hangers with a DOM.
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resistance is 0-90 ohms on analog dash and 0-120 ohms on the digital version...
Should be able to tell if it is working, more or less, by checking from float at the bottom of its swing to the top of its movement.
I had trouble once where the gauge plugs in in the dash...cleaned up the terminals and it worked properly again
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Good to know for the next time I get surge of energy, (hopefully before my 401k kicks in). :player:
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resistance is 0-90 ohms on analog dash and 0-120 ohms on the digital version...
Is that stop-to-stop? Or is it relative to the imaginary plane of the hanger's mounting flange?
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that is stop to stop....I will check the one that is out of the car at the moment tomorrow and see what I get
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If I had any sense, I would buy a new wiper resistor...dam n sure hope this one works better in the tank than it does in the air...
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I've never looked before... Can you open up the box and flip the resistor like you can in a starter solenoid?
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I tried...did not help...took it all apart and cleaned it a bit...tried to put more pressure on the wiper and such...still sucks...
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Had "issues" with the Autometer gauges in the 55. Called them, was told 2ohms or less on the connections to ground.
The 55 install is new, I'm anal about this stuff, still ended up with 20+ ohms on the ground side at the tank. [Grounded to the welded in studs on the body.] Ran a dedicated ground from the tank hanger, directly to the batt.Now reads <.2ohm.
Same with the volt meter in the dash. Batt neg is cabled directly from the batt to the ft of the car, to the frame, engine and body. All with 3/8 bolts, star washers, yadda, yadda. Gauges were grounded the same way> welded 1/4" studs. 25ohms at the stud to batt neg cable. Cleaned, added No NOX grease,...WALA <.2ohms.
These same issues have arisen on the GN..Added grounds, checked and rechecked, cleaned. Gauges are much more accurate....
The Autometer tech made a comment I'd not thot of: The gauges are actually just volt meters, with different faces on them... :cool;
Back under my rock... :player:
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yeah, I have seen companies that would convert volt meters to other gauges....
If I had not already installed the new bulkhead connector and harness in this sender I would buy a new unit, but, since Jack will not sell you the ten cent bulkhead retainer by itself and warns that you will have to buy the $40 harness again if you screw it up, I will just hope the sender will work again in the tank...
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ten cent bulkhead retainer
got a picture of this?
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yeah, but Jack does not like his stuff shown for one reason, or the other..
it is just a stamped out piece of tin that gets pressed over the back of the bulkhead fitting to retain it similar to the factory set up...with one difference, the in tank harness connector has no way to retain itself to the bulkhead connector and can easily fall off. Therefore Jack's retainer has a leg on it with a slot on it that snaps over the in tank connector to keep it in place.
You have to be careful to install it properly because if you get it 180 out, then the connector will be 180 out and then the wires will not be properly connected...an d you have to buy a complete new harness in order to get it right-as per his comments...
Just think of a star washer with the teeth on the inside and a slotted leg sticking up from one edge of the washer
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Steve with all your knowledge and wisdom you still haven't learned to leave shit alone......I love it.
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nope...I am still a little kid at heart....alway s think it can be better
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mmmhmm - I have that problem too.
It was hard not putting the 150 jets in my car from the get go......
Got some ideas for the launch - going to test them out this weekend.
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Look at the little tit that sticks out of the fuel level float wire. (not electrical, the actual wire that the float hangs on). Buzz that as short as you can without the retainer being compromised. A small cutoff wheel would be the best way but only if the pump and screen isn't there of course.
With that fatter pump, it's a hellovalot easier with that extra mm of clearance. Also, if you use hose clamps to mount the pump, make sure to clock them where they won't interfere with the installation.
I need to drop my tank and find out why I run out of gas before I'm actually out of gas. I suspect my filter sock curled up and sucks air too early.
Well, I go to drop the Denso pump in...see the black plastic nub sticking out of the resistor mechanism and of course the pump is large enuf to prevent me from tilting the hanger so the nub will clear the lip. Thanks to Earl, I won't be on of those dumbasses, not named Earl, that notches the lip...Right?
Wrong-O! My Dremel is dead and I could not find a small cut off wheel anyway...so color me a dumbass because I took my side cutters and clipped each side of an area a quarter inch wide and folded the lip of the tank inward....prob ably should have folded it upward for easier access to the tab when I folded it back in place...but, truth is, I just thought about that when I was typing this :(
Dropped the pump in and pulled the tab back up in place...THEN I noticed the big O-ring had shrunk and did not want to sit in the groove all the way around...an so far, stretching is not doing anything but exposing cracks in the o-ring as it still will not sit in the groove. So I ordered an O-ring from Glen.
At least by taking two weeks to swap a fuel pump instead of the normal two hours to R&R, I am making Phil feel good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I hope I remember how to put the tank back in...
For those that are not masochists, this might be the way to go given the age of our sending units
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS-G7W255&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS-G7W255&eq=&Tp=)
Pump already installed and all the install parts you might need, it seems
Looks like a better designed float mechanism with regard to the wiper and the resistor plus one would not have to take it apart ten times to get all the excess resistance out of the device like I did
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Even the great ones stumble sometimes. :D
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all my jeans have worn out knees
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all my jeans have worn out knees
That statement can be taken a few ways. :hmm
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I am old enuf not to care! :D
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Look at the little tit that sticks out of the fuel level float wire. (not electrical, the actual wire that the float hangs on). Buzz that as short as you can without the retainer being compromised. A small cutoff wheel would be the best way but only if the pump and screen isn't there of course.
With that fatter pump, it's a hellovalot easier with that extra mm of clearance. Also, if you use hose clamps to mount the pump, make sure to clock them where they won't interfere with the installation.
I need to drop my tank and find out why I run out of gas before I'm actually out of gas. I suspect my filter sock curled up and sucks air too early.
just read this. Completed the pump swap in one day. By default, this the only thing i've one in thus far. :-)
Well, I go to drop the Denso pump in...see the black plastic nub sticking out of the resistor mechanism and of course the pump is large enuf to prevent me from tilting the hanger so the nub will clear the lip. Thanks to Earl, I won't be on of those dumbasses, not named Earl, that notches the lip...Right?
Wrong-O! My Dremel is dead and I could not find a small cut off wheel anyway...so color me a dumbass because I took my side cutters and clipped each side of an area a quarter inch wide and folded the lip of the tank inward....prob ably should have folded it upward for easier access to the tab when I folded it back in place...but, truth is, I just thought about that when I was typing this :(
Dropped the pump in and pulled the tab back up in place...THEN I noticed the big O-ring had shrunk and did not want to sit in the groove all the way around...an so far, stretching is not doing anything but exposing cracks in the o-ring as it still will not sit in the groove. So I ordered an O-ring from Glen.
At least by taking two weeks to swap a fuel pump instead of the normal two hours to R&R, I am making Phil feel good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I hope I remember how to put the tank back in...
For those that are not masochists, this might be the way to go given the age of our sending units
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS-G7W255&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS-G7W255&eq=&Tp=)
Pump already installed and all the install parts you might need, it seems
Looks like a better designed float mechanism with regard to the wiper and the resistor plus one would not have to take it apart ten times to get all the excess resistance out of the device like I did
I just read this. Did mine in a day. The only thing I got on you so far. :D
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LOL
I never saw an o-ring that would not drop straight back in the groove around the opening...some how, this one got smaller altho it was in place when I pulled the pump out. Maybe 26 years of age made it decide it was time to shrink?
the piece of hose that goes between the hanger and the pump is not standard fuel injection hose which cannot be submersed in gas and the hose that was on there was chewed up by the clamps after all these years...I am replacing the rubber hoses between the tank and the metal lines and I did not see them around here (you cannot use standard fuel line and be safe) so that was another order. The filter that I bought when I bought the Denso was angled up and I did not like that so I had to order another filter...and so this job has gone...
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That sucks. You didnt install the first go around? Figured that hose came with all new pumps. And all that sounds like a pain
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No, none came with the Denso and the filter when I bought them...
here, you can see the pump is quite a bit larger than the stock Walbro type
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I've never heard of an O-ring shrinking. Normally I'd say soak it in gas or mineral spirits to swell it out.... But I don't think gas would do it in this instance. :)
I'd get those black dots on your hand checked too. That can't be good (ESP if you're a lefty!)
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I don't have a clue where those dots came from. I think the phone created them
well, that is wrong because they are not on the original pic...showed up after I downsized the file...
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No, none came with the Denso and the filter when I bought them...
here, you can see the pump is quite a bit larger than the stock Walbro type
Damn that pump is HUGE!!!
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I'd get those black dots on your hand checked too. That can't be good (ESP if you're a lefty!)
And I thought Earl was only a Doctor of "LUUUUUUUUUUUUU VVVVVVV"
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Steve is that the Supra pump? It's pretty damn big
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yeah, the TT Supra pump
Supposed to be very reliable, but, it draws more amps and does not flow a lot more fuel at 70 psi than the stock pump. On the other hand, if you crank the voltage up, it does a lot better. It does flow a lot more at lower pressures.
This might be a better pic
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Spend all that money on the proper fuel line and you still use worm clamps.......d o I need to come kick you in the ass?
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:D
I had some of the t bolt style fuel line clamps, but, for some reason, I don't trust them. I figure the next time this comes out of the tank, I will be sitting in my rocking chair poking some dumbass kid with my cane telling him how to do it and he can use the other style....unles s the sender does not work right after being taken apart about twenty times while I tried to resurrect it..then I have another nine inches of hose available.
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Steve I hope that new fuel pump runs at least as long as this thread has lasted. :icon_lol:
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Laughing...old and slow, that is me
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:D
I had some of the t bolt style fuel line clamps, but, for some reason, I don't trust them. I figure the next time this comes out of the tank, I will be sitting in my rocking chair poking some dumbass kid with my cane telling him how to do it and he can use the other style....unles s the sender does not work right after being taken apart about twenty times while I tried to resurrect it..then I have another nine inches of hose available.
You could have used the ss pinch clamps, cheap and strong.
AJ___
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that is what I called t bolt clamps
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And I thought Earl was only a Doctor of "LUUUUUUUUUUUUU VVVVVVV"
Where do you think strange spots usually cum from? :D
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so the new o-ring was just enuf larger to drop right into the groove....seem ed to be a hair fatter as well which will make for a better seal.
Now, tomorrow, if I am not too fat to get the tank dragged back on my stomach when I am under the car, it should go back in.
Sender seems to be working so maybe my "fixing" it worked...guess that is to be determined with use. Resistance is close to maybe it will not read over full so much
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Winning! Or, we hope so Steve!
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Resistance is futile
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Now that there is resistance - it'll read empty all the time instead of full :rofl:
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empty = 0 ohms
full= 90 ohms
You thinking Mopar or Ford :)
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empty = 0 ohms
full= 90 ohms
You thinking Mopar or Ford :)
:icon_lol:
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Do you do all of this work by yourself?? That fuel pump swap was a B word for me and Charles.
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yeah-no help around here...got the tank back in...hoses connected...I hate those damn hoses...got to do a little wiring and I am done...done with the pump anyway...still have to fix that broken exhaust hanger and install my new wideband but at least I am done with the pump and rear springs...I hope! :D
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yeah-no help around here...got the tank back in...hoses connected...I hate those damn hoses...got to do a little wiring and I am done...done with the pump anyway...still have to fix that broken exhaust hanger and install my new wideband but at least I am done with the pump and rear springs...I hope! :D
And this is on ONE of your Buicks? You got more than one you keeping the maintence up on?
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I am down to two...The GN I bought new and the T I built for my son when he was in high school
Then I have the Camaro and the Challenger...
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Finished!!! Works like a....
Oh wait, the pump does not run....not a sound, not a drop....not a spark when I apply power directly to it...wonder why I did not try it before i reinstalled the tank...?? Dumbass!
I think I will take a couple of days off. Have to go to the dentist tomorrow anyway...might as well do the whole masochist bit... :013:
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Look on the bright side...I had not put the heat shield back on or got it off the jack stands! :D
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It doesn't work??? That sucks man. You have some nice cars I presume from the sound of it. You kept your car from the day you bought it till now? Amazing.
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yep, it no pumpee... but it does suck!
yeah, I bought it in March of '86
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'teve, did you wire it correctly? If memory serves, the small post is + and the big post is - on the pump
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That is correct and that's the way I did it. It does not seem to be running at all
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The one nagging feeling in the back of my mind is that I have it jacked up enuf to crawl under it and that maybe the little gas in the tank has uncovered the filter.
When I laid under the car and touched power to the pump lead, I could hear nothing and I did not get a spark when touching the connector...bu t?
I would like to think that no matter how silent these pumps are, I could hear it because it is fastened directly to the return tube of the pick up with no rubber between it...but?
Will get back on it tomorrow...:D
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hope you get it resolved. hopefully you wont need me to come down there and fix it. Lol
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No, but come on, anyway...
I will fix it...just have to be sure I know if I need to buy something, or correct something, first...I will get on it tomorrow. :)
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Did you forget to put the fuse back in for the hotwire....... I've done that a couple times
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no...I ran a jumper to the back of the car so I could make the connection and listen for the pump without being drowned out by the antenna going up...also checked that for voltage...
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Random: maybe a bad pump....? :icon_neutral:
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It is certainly possible...but I will prove it before I order another one :)
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I understand. Are those pumps expensive
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I think it was about $150
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Ah.
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so the pump is fine...the problem is that the wire from the pump to the new, hd, bulkhead connector on the in tank harness did not stay crimped in the terminal and is not making contact properly
The statement that crimping is far superior to soldering is only true when the crimp is good, I guess
I am happy because I assumed I did something stupid....Oh, well, the day is long and I probably will before it is over :D
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Is that the racetronix bulkhead they were bragging about a year or so ago?
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Should have used your pull tester :chin:
(http://www.mark-10.com/instruments/testsys/pull%20tester-1.jpg)
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there was no pull...other than to move the end to the pump terminal..so I did not need a pull tester...only a move the wire tester to show it failed...
I checked continuity before I connected the pump...guess I should have checked afterward
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Good stuff. So sideways at any speed is right around the corner now eh!!?
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I remove the terminal from the connector. It appears that the crimper missed one side as the wire was only marked on one side...and the terminal teeth were not only not bent on the other side, but were broken off except for a thread of metal. Further it looks like the terminal is a size too small for the wire ga, but that is my opinion and not a fact. the two legs that should wrap around the insulation are too short to do so adequately as well.
In the end, I soldered it on which makes me feel iffy because there is no real mechanical support to hold the wire in place other than solder. The wire is pretty coarse so there will be vibration due to its stiffness. I guess a good idea is only as good as you build it and I was just unlucky
The intelligent thing to do would be to try to get the harness replaced, but we all know how that would go and I don't want to spend another $40 to replace something that was not made right in the first place so I guess I will try prayer.
Phil, I still have to stuff the damn tank back in....
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Thats gonna be a bitch putting it back in. That was the toughest part for me and Charles. Im sure you've done it numerous times tho, so you already know
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I have not done it since Wednesday! LOL
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Teflon heatshrink/sleeve could work, not so easy to come by tho.
and takes a high temp to shrink.
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I thought about something like that. After talking to one of my smart friends, I went ahead and put it back in the tank.
When I disconnected the end from the pump, the other end just fell out of the connector. Looked like the only thing that was trying to hold it in place was the two legs around the insulation and they were not long enuf to overlap. When I connected the other end to the pump, they let go and the wire came out of the crimp because it was only crimped on one side....
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Now it runs....and pumps...
Phil, here is how I do it by myself...
to take it out, I jack it up by the diff until the tires are just leaving the ground. Then I put a jack stand under the frame just in front of the rear tires on both sides. this gives me enuf room to crawl under the car, disconnect everything and lower the tank down on my chest. then I can slide out from under the tank and pull it out. One thing I do is to push the tank straps back out of the way before I slide out. the rear of the car has to be just high enuf to allow them to swing back without bending them up a lot. The worst part of this is getting the old fuel lines off and I always try to replace them so I just cut them to get them off...don't put your face under the lines while doing this because this new gas really tastes bad and it burns a lot.
It should go without saying that the tank should be down to a couple of gallons to lessen the weight. Gas weighs 6.5 lbs per gallon so it does not take too much in the tank to make it heavy.
To put it back in, I slide it under the car and pull it up on my Harbor Freight aluminum racing jack which does not weigh very much. Because the tank wants to slosh from end to end if there is any gas in it as was this case, I lay down on the floor on the passenger side of the jack and use my leg to pump the jack handle while I balance the tank and steer it into place. You have to watch the filler tube to make sure it is not binding and guide it into place as you jack, plus, at least on my car, the driver's side tail pipe is in the way so that the tank has to be slid further to the passenger side while tilting the drive's side up so the lip of the tank clears the pipe...then slide the tank back towards the drivers side while jacking with my leg. The lightweight jack makes it easy to move the tank into position where needed.
This would be easier with two people but it's not that bad by yourself if you just have a little patience.
It took me one hour to put it back into place and connect everything back up.
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Similar to what I did except I took the pad off the jack, laid it on a 2' by 2', 1/2" piece of plywood and drilled through the pad and plywood. Then attactched the wood to the pad with countersunk screws.
(if I was to take an inventory here I might find I have about as many modified tools as unmodified ones. <LOL>)
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While I was mumbling about it tilting everytime the gas sloshed, I thought it would be easier with an enlarged pad...but, I have thought that every time I have changed a pump over the last 20 years... :D
The HF jack does not have much in the way of ears on the pad and it fits under the skid plate on the bottom of the tank so there is no worry about punching a hole in the tank even if the tank were heavier.
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'Teve, any idea what the part number is on that round pump sock you have? The one that came with my pump was an FS132. It's rectangular and has to point towards the RR tire. I hated the idea of pointing the sock at the front of the tank but the baffling gave me no choice.
Which brings me to what I learned today... If you don't clock the pump to 2:00ish the baffle will cause it to curl up and suck air while you still have plenty of fuel. And this is really interesting... While I was going back together today I grabbed a paint mixing stick and did a depth measurement. Turns out the factory hanger's stop will locate the bottom of the pump sock about 1/2" off the bottom!
I reclocked the pump, moved the pump down 1/2", scoured the earth for some 30R10 hose, gave up and made what I had work, changed the fuel filter, and now my FP was rock solid with 1.5gallons of gas in the tank.
Can't wait to see where I am when the hose blows off. Can't fix that on the side of the road!
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http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FFS-040&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FFS-040&eq=&Tp=)
FFS-040
If we could start from scratch, I bet we could build one of these things a lot better than the factory did
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It's amazing how complicated something so simple can be. I'm still amazed at how far off the bottom the pickup is. When I first did my Denso/Supra conversion I assUmed GM put the locating ring where it needs to be.
1/2" means running out of fuel 1.87 gallons sooner than you should.