IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: ULYCYC on May 30 2012, 07:59:59 AM
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Just a little advice. Before you go crazy trying to figure out stumbles, stalling, won't start at times, knock and a host of other problems check your fuel pump. This will be the third friend this year I found a defective pump. No names, brand or vendor. This car had tip in stumble then stalls when hot issues. His rail mount fuel pressure gauge showed good pressure but was also defective as 99% of them are. My OTC pressure gauge shows 38lbs (line on) at cold startup. After warm and driving it drops to 26-30 and stalls at times. Then no start when hot with pressure at 18lbs. New pump will be ordered today. These bad pumps were less then 2 years old. One pump bought on ebay, one from a buick vendor and the other from a mail order speed shop. Not sure if the cause is china shit, alchy in the fuel these days or running with low fuel and overheating the pumps I have no clue. Invest in a good mechanical fuel pressure gauge with a 3 foot line so you can place it under your wiper for a road test. You may have to do this more often with pumps available today.
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I have a WE4 goin to Australia here. I have a new Walbro "169" waiting to go in it.. I do not have a warm fuzzy feeling with it :013: with all the past problems that were "suposably" fixed.
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Was told yesterday that Delco EP242 stock pumps were available for $50 to $150. Who know which ones are real or fake. I'm sure the suppliers are confused too.
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There was a lot we never heard about this "problem" which always make me wonder ...almost only seemed to be Buick specific? Walbros are built here to strict standards. One would think if they did have a problem it would soon be evident why and to adhere to their ISO standards, it would be fixed.
Makes me want to stick with the 340M which was a Ferd pump initially as I understand it.
Stick a new 340 in the truck just in case :)
Referring to Ed's comments, I agree. I have seen a number of pump failures this year on cars that the owner did not realize the pump was going. Generally, they just kept adding more alky to the spray. It seems there are more pump failures across the board.
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You can bulk order fuel pumps from China with any brand, pn# and correct oem box to match. This goes for almost any product from automotive to Gucci bags.
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Yep, and I have seen failures reported across the board regardless of brand.
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I know a local mechanic found an original pump from GM - somewhere in the GM system.
Wasn't cheap over $200 IIRC
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Do 'tronix modify their pumps? heard something about staking/punching some part?
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the way pumps are put together, I find it hard to believe anyone goes inside them. Red Armstrong used to grind all the numbers off the pumps and stick a piece of 12 ga wire in the top to shim the bypass to a high level and he did not seem to make an effort to end the belief that he opened the pump and rebuilt the guts...but, no one ever saw a difference other than it bypassed higher than the stock pumps.
The factory pump was pretty marginal as delivered. It supported what rolled out of the plant and nothing more
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Jack does modify them but I don't think he tears them apart? He had before & after pics on his site years back. I have 2 from him from when I got my DP Harness & they are still good. Considering they sit 80% of the time I can't say whether that would hurt or help the lifespan of them?? :chin:
After meeting him & seeing his shop I can say that he is Very Fussy & makes nice stuff!
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Racetronics sells the GSS294M for the Buicks now.. I am leaning towards that.
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It looks ok to me...last I had looked, he was still offering the 340m and I never heard of many of them failing....I suspect the market is so small that no one has tried to "import" one of them. Looks like he is modifying the bypass for the pressure to something close to 80-90 psi on the 294
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You guys ever see this one - found it on EBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walbro-450-LPH-In-Tank-E85-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Install-Kit-F90000267-/120909475533?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c26c42ecd&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walbro-450-LPH-In-Tank-E85-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Install-Kit-F90000267-/120909475533?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c26c42ecd&vxp=mtr)
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I'm all about "made in America" (and Canada too) but the Denso 280 is a great pump by my experience.Thi s is the Supra fuel pump.A manufacturer is not going to release and install a dud pump to drive warranty costs.The 280 will static a set of 80#'s at 15v in the tank.
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You guys ever see this one - found it on EBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walbro-450-LPH-In-Tank-E85-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Install-Kit-F90000267-/120909475533?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c26c42ecd&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walbro-450-LPH-In-Tank-E85-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Install-Kit-F90000267-/120909475533?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c26c42ecd&vxp=mtr)
John, I have not seen that one...and I would be very nervous about one that I did not know came from a reliable source.
Wonder what the dimensions are?
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I'm all about "made in America" (and Canada too) but the Denso 280 is a great pump by my experience.Thi s is the Supra fuel pump.A manufacturer is not going to release and install a dud pump to drive warranty costs.The 280 will static a set of 80#'s at 15v in the tank.
A legit Denso should be a good pump. It's history certainly indicates it to be. If it recall correctly, it puts out very little more than a 255 Walbro at 70 psi, however, at normal voltages. If needed, I would rather just buy a pump that was made to deliver the additional volume at normal voltages without having to gimmick the voltage to get there.
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John, I have not seen that one...and I would be very nervous about one that I did not know came from a reliable source.
Wonder what the dimensions are?
I thought it looked interesting when I found it.
Maybe Jack at Racetronics can test one?
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could be :)
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I'm all about "made in America" (and Canada too) but the Denso 280 is a great pump by my experience.Thi s is the Supra fuel pump.A manufacturer is not going to release and install a dud pump to drive warranty costs.The 280 will static a set of 80#'s at 15v in the tank.
A legit Denso should be a good pump. It's history certainly indicates it to be. If it recall correctly, it puts out very little more than a 255 Walbro at 70 psi, however, at normal voltages. If needed, I would rather just buy a pump that was made to deliver the additional volume at normal voltages without having to gimmick the voltage to get there.
The fuel requirements for a twin turbo Supra are 3.5 bar + boost which is achieved at normal system voltage (13.5?).I have the fuel volume to pressure and voltage curves for this pump and there was a lot of mis-communicated data about this pump.If you look at the case area (top/bottom) compared to any of the Walbros its probably double (pi*r^2).The case size allows for a much larger pump arm than Walbro.The "torque" created by the larger pump arm means more volume per swing of the pump arm.This also means more wattage is req'd to drive this pump.The denso pump under load at 12v pulls in the area of 14A.When I increase voltage to 15V current drops to around 11A.I have to find the study I conducted on this pump but its locked up in my messed up external hard drive.This pump does not need 15V to to static a set of 60's at 70 psi.
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Found this searching around..
http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/ (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/)
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Found this searching around..
http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/ (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/)
Do you get the feeling these are all coming out of the same factory?
The denso pump under load at 12v pulls in the area of 14A.When I increase voltage to 15V current drops to around 11A.
Gotta figure that one out...
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Found this searching around..
http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/ (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/)
Looks like a good pump. Too expensive for Buick owners unless it's offered as a group purchase :rofl:
Aeromotive has good customer service, also no fakes around at the moment. Buy them up
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Too expensive for Buick owners unless it's offered as a group purchase :rofl:
Isn't that the truth !! :player:
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Found this searching around..
http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/ (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11142-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet-inline/)
Looks like a good pump. Too expensive for Buick owners unless it's offered as a group purchase :rofl:
Aeromotive has good customer service, also no fakes around at the moment. Buy them up
what is interesting (to me, anyway) is that the Aeromotive pump puts out about 390 lph at 40 psi while Eric's TT340 pump that is aimed at E85 puts out about 360 at the same point.
Aeromotive says theirs will work with stock fuel lines whereas Eric says his will most likely need a larger return line based upon his experience.
Eric's info http://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1008-TT340 (http://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1008-TT340)
24 month warranty
There are so many of these pumps appearing, I would not bet on the ancestry unless I knew the mother and father personally :D
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There are so many of these pumps appearing, I would not bet on the ancestry unless I knew the mother and father personally :D
well thats the problem I have now.. IF the car was local I'd do one of them.. BUT then I get the ibby jibbys thinkin about if it fails down in Australia. :icon_redface:
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that is a problem more prevalent in us old guys
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The Denso is available world wide, I believe, that might be the universal solution.
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A couple of things about TT340.Does the flow bench used for the existing curve emulate the fuel lines in a GN? I saw nothing that reflects a wattage/amperage increase with use of the TT340 since the armature and pump size is limited by the size of the pump case.I just saw a racetronics 340m start to tank because the pressure relief valve was letting fuel by at less than peak pressure.This pump had few miles on it.Eric is a good guy and works hard on his calibrations and other products.No slam intended towards Eric.
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Think your reading a little too deep into fuel curves and specs. Products like a fuel pumps turbos, carbs and a host of others need a baseline to set a spec for comparison. A 1000 hp turbo will never hit its bench rating unless the rest of the build can match the simulated test. I started this thread to warn of pump failures and keep a close eyeout for issues. If Eric's pumps are not failing then it will work on 90% of the Buicks around here. Same goes for most pumps that on not fakes or defective like Walbros of a few years ago.
I agree with the other 10% that needs to pay close attention to a pumps output to make sure it will fit into your program. I wouldn't use any above for this. A external Fuelab, Magnaflo or Weldon would be my choice
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I wouldn't use any above for this. A external Fuelab, Magnaflo or Weldon would be my choice
That is pretty much it in a nutshell. If one is going to run much faster than upper tens on race gas, then it is time to replumb the entire system to be able to deliver enuf fuel to meet ones goals. In that case, it is time to sump the tank/use a fuel cell and go to a quality external pump. :) For the rest of us that are not going faster than that, things are far simpler and don't take that much head scratching.
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I have been beating my head against the wall with this.. Think I am goin with the Racetronics Buick pump. Haven't heard bad things about it. Liked the Aeromotive one BUT not comfy with the return line handling it.. This is only a low 11 car.. decisions decisions :013:
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I would say Jack's or Denso, maybe
Another problem with putting powerful pumps on the stock fuel line is that they have to work against more resistance to deliver the volume they are pushing which loads the pump and potential shortens their life.
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I would say Jack's or Denso, maybe
Another problem with putting powerful pumps on the stock fuel line is that they have to work against more resistance to deliver the volume they are pushing which loads the pump and potential shortens their life.
well I have used both with no problems... well maybe a little with the Denso.. Verdict is still out on that one till we actually race it :cool;
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This is ONLY a low 11 sec car?? :( Geesh. can only imagine what you'd say about my car. Lol
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This is ONLY a low 11 sec car?? :( Geesh. can only imagine what you'd say about my car. Lol
hahahaha... you have to start somewhere.. Been playin with these cars since 86.. so although a low 11 sec car is pretty good it's old news to some of us that have tried all the kool guy parts out there that didn't work. :rock: Take your time an learn the car an how to drive it.. 11s will come pretty easy . :cool;
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You must have a 7th injector!
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This is ONLY a low 11 sec car?? :( Geesh. can only imagine what you'd say about my car. Lol
hahahaha... you have to start somewhere.. Been playin with these cars since 86.. so although a low 11 sec car is pretty good it's old news to some of us that have tried all the kool guy parts out there that didn't work. :rock: Take your time an learn the car an how to drive it.. 11s will come pretty easy . :cool;
I look forward to the day Grump!!
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So, I ordered a Denso and wiring harness from Racetronix...t tipe's tech appeal just pushed me down that road :D