IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on April 08 2012, 08:51:13 AM
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Got this resolved last year with some parts replacement and tuning. Get her back out this spring and the dam thing is knocking again!!! Will check fuel pressure is rising appropriately first, O2 is about 800 and boost is only 15 lbs. can't turn boost any lower as rod has no tension now when placed on arm. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
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so, what's the pattern...star ts at the top of third gear and gets worse each frame?
Happens in low gear, or on the shift to second? Starts with a low number and gets worse each frame? Starts high and gets less each frame until it goes away?
give us the amplitude of numbers along with the pattern
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Starts in first, about 100 yards out of the hole. Alarm goes off, SM shows 5 to 7 for knock as I lift.
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is that on the shift to second?
if you got wot in third gear about sixty mph, does it do it?
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Do you have fresh fuel after winter storage. Not sure if Canada fuels have ethanol blends. But down here in the northeast US it sucks and builds up water in the tank with storage. That will give you knock issues.
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Not on the shift, don't get that far. Will try the 3rd gear test when I check the fuel pressure.
Waited to run 2 tanks through, I also put stabil in for storage only keeping about 3 gallons over the winter.
Thanks for the help, I'll report back with what I discover!
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Will ECM compensate for air temp? SM displays it. It's been mid 40's when knock happened, maybe lean?? O2 read 800 though??
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You adjust fuel through Erics chip. Fuel pressure rising with boost? I'm curious...what were your 02's at WOT last summer?
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yes, it has some compensation for air temps....
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You adjust fuel through Erics chip. Fuel pressure rising with boost? I'm curious...what were your 02's at WOT last summer?
Tried the quick fix of adding fuel, no change. O2's were between 800 and 810 last summer.
Hope to get out today and check FP rising and do the 3rd gear test.
Thanks!
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Well got out today and did the 3rd gear test. The dam thing is over boosting again :013: . Tried 2 tmes, both times boost jumped to 22lbs and knock was at 6.2 and 7.1. The wastegate arm has no tension and slips on to pin so no lowering the tension there. replaced that solenoid on the valve cover last year when this was happening, that fixed it then. I'm thinking of just going back to the "tuner" style with the hose, not using the soleniod at all. I cant remember, do i just plug the hose at the solenoid or do I eliminate the Y fitting and run a single hose?
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Normally, we replace the plumbing with a straight hose. Don't remember if plugging the hose will let it go as high when shortening the rod-try that first and see...that would be the easiest route
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Went out to change that hose set-up and find the underside of the turbo and the wastegate covered in oil........... GREAT!! Assuming a seal has failed, will have to check into this at home, dont look like an at the office fix.
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It may not be so bad (oil spray ) under proper boost levels?
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check the drainback line as well as the turbo oil feed line. Pretty common for the drainback line (the larger line) to crack...partic ularly if some idiot left off the support bracket to the turbo
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No obvious oil leak, checked lines, we're fine so I'll just keep eye on it.
Changed hose set up, boost dropped to 12 lbs, also builds slower. Can't believe the new solenoid only lasted one year!
New issue, took 2 runs from a stop and it wouldn't shift out of first, had to lift. Shifts fine in normal driving???
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well, drive it a bit and look for oil again...
yep, always rises a bit slower in tuner mode...you will have to shorten the rod to get more boost...12# is what the stock actuator spring gives you at minimum tension. Strange that the boost solenoid is bad..they are not usually failure prone....Check and see if one of the wires has 12v on it when the key is ON. Think it is the pink/blk wire that carries the power
I will leave the tranny problem to Ed. Governor spring is all I can think of.
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Governor spring fell off or you have a hard internal problem. Check the spring first. Easy fix.
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Governor spring fell off or you have a hard internal problem. Check the spring first. Easy fix.
can u give me some instruction on the governor spring? thanks!!!!
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There is a 4 bolt cover behind the valve body to pull the governor. The governor will usually come down with the cover. Be careful the spring that fell off will fall out too. I really can't tell you how to fix it yet. You have to see what when wrong first. Spring fell off, broke, weight jammed?
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Okay, about all I know about a transmission is P means park and D is drive. Do I drain it ( it has a drain plug installed in the pan) and drop the pan to get to this 4 bolt cover? Or should i just take it somewhere?
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Yes, the trans pan has to come off and 4 + quarts drain too. If you have a shop you know that will work with you then take it there. If not the repair can cost you a few hundred dollars. It's easy to do if you kind a know what your doing and have basic tools
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Look at the pics in your manual that we bugged you to spend $15 for~ :)
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What manual, Chilsons? I will get it for sure!!!! Cant count the times I wished I had something to look at before I just jumped in and started taking things apart.
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Looks like he has raised the price to $20. I don't know how anyone can successfully own a Buick without a manual
http://buickman.r00td0wn.net/ (http://buickman.r00td0wn.net/)
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Thanks Steve, got one on the way!!
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update, didnt have the guts to tear into the tranny so took it to the shop that rebuilt it. He tells me the tranny is fine. Says the motor has a miss or fueling problem and it is causing the problem at the 1-2 shift. It does shift at WOT, it just has this weird prolonged sliding shift at about 4000 rpm's. he says the engine misses or runs out of power causing the tranny to do this weird shift. I have always felt this slight miss crusing when just a tiny bit of power is needed. Taking into a shop to put on a machine Friday morning to diagnose issue...I hope.
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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update, didnt have the guts to tear into the tranny so took it to the shop that rebuilt it. He tells me the tranny is fine. Says the motor has a miss or fueling problem and it is causing the problem at the 1-2 shift. It does shift at WOT, it just has this weird prolonged sliding shift at about 4000 rpm's. he says the engine misses or runs out of power causing the tranny to do this weird shift. I have always felt this slight miss crusing when just a tiny bit of power is needed. Taking into a shop to put on a machine Friday morning to diagnose issue...I hope.
Find a new tranny guy.
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Is he blowing smoke? Very reputable place, 30+ years in business. I have always felt the miss thing he is saying is the cause? Could this be or is it not a possibility? again I dont know crap about transmissions! he also was adjusting some cable by the thottle body that did have an effect, he put it back to where it was but it must be off a bit because now it goes into over drive with a lurch.
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Is this the guy that we asked you how many 200 4r trannies he had built for Regals in that 30 years?
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/tvcable.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/tvcable.htm)
I would not expect to get anything for my money from the guy with the machine either unless he is a TB owner
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Is he blowing smoke? Very reputable place, 30+ years in business. I have always felt the miss thing he is saying is the cause? Could this be or is it not a possibility? again I dont know crap about transmissions! he also was adjusting some cable by the thottle body that did have an effect, he put it back to where it was but it must be off a bit because now it goes into over drive with a lurch.
I'm not a trans guy - but it sounds fishy to me.
You could learn - the basics aren't hard.
Not sure why he would fiddle with the TV cable.
You can adjust that yourself - it's very easy.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/transmission/tvcable.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/transmission/tvcable.html)
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messing with the TV cable can fry a trans see above links....not quite sure how this fits into the knock issue...unless the trans is shifting so hard something is setting of the sensor
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his knock issue appears to have been a lack of boost control due to a problem with the wastegate solenoid....th ese threads have a lot of twists and turns
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The miss is noticeable when crushing, I don't think it's a fuel delivery issue as the O2's are never below 800 and if it was leaning out the knock would still be there??? I'm hoping it's an electrical issue that this guy can find and cure... Maybe a bad coil a possibility?
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his knock issue appears to have been a lack of boost control due to a problem with the wastegate solenoid....th ese threads have a lot of twists and turns
you aint whistling dixie
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doubt it... that would show up much worse under throttle
Didn't you put a set of new injectors in it?
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BTW, the tranny shift points are controlled by rpm and throttle valve pressure. A miss at cruise, or such, has nothing to do with shifting...jus t trying to help you identify smoke :)
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I didnt put injectors in, the previous owner said he had put in 42 LB ones. Could a partially plugged or bad injector be found by this mechanic or do they need to be removed and tested? Should I just get some 60 LB ones and be done with it? best place to get them?
It shifts completely normal in normal driving, I adjusted the TV cable per the directions on your site. A question though, for firmer shifts you would adjust the cable toward the front of the car a bit, to far toward the back would soften the shift but be bad for the tranny??
Ignoring the tranny thing. On the miss with the motor, is there anything in particular I should have the mechanic check that may not be looked into if he isnt that familar with the turbo regals?
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Do you have a scan tool? Scanmaster/PowerLogger/etc?
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If I recall correctly...pu shing the cable forward will firm up the shifts but also delay them.
pulling it toward the firewall will soften the shifts, make them shift a bit earlier, and if too far, will make the clutches slip during shifts and burn them up. I like to set it so that the car normally gets into OD before the converter locks up. If it locks before the shift, then you get a bang when it shifts.
Because the 200-4r has a different valve body in it as compared to trannies used in montes, etc, it has to be rebuilt differently and there are tricks in installing shift kits, etc. This is why we harp on finding someone that knows these transmissions but most think we are dumb asses :)
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Have a scanmaster, have an "average " understanding of how to read it, check Steve's site alot also :atbeer: .
I know you guys know your stuff, believe me, and I did try to find the best place in a reasonable distance to do the tranny work. A local guy owns a world renowned restoration shop, named L'Cars, he restores million dollar cars, builds hot rods, long history. If interested he has a good website. Anyway, I went there and talked to Bob and he recomended this place, this guy does all his tranny work to. I'm confident he rebuilt it correctly.
Any direction on the injectors or motor diagnosis???
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Years ago I was troubleshootin g a "miss" during cruise... turns out it was the TCC disengaging and reengaging rapidly.
Installing a manual lockup switch verified the problem (and gave me enough of a band-aid to put off fixing the actual problem)
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Get the trans issues done first. You said it had a miss while cruising? Is that fixed yet?
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Ed, Ed, Ed! You have to keep up better! The tranny guy said there was no tranny problems. The failure to shift out of low gear at wide open throttle was due to a miss at cruise the best I can figure out :D
The tranny guy did something with the tv cable, however, and it has since been readjusted as per the normal means.
Oh yeah, for your score card, mark down that the detonation was caused by lack of boost control...
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So time to put this thread to bed, and all problems solved? I missed that post I guess
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well, now you gotta wonder what put the miss in the cruise :)
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Sorry this thread has taken so many twists, I'll cover each issue;
Wastegate solenoid has 12 volts to the pink wire, solenoid must be bad? :013:
Oil leak.....its very small, coming out where the hose connects the turbo outlet to the intercooler.
controlling boost tuner style now, at about 13lb boost so I dont have to deal with knock while working on the WOT tranny issue.
I adjusted the TV cable per Steve's site instructions, tested it out while on the way to the shop this morning. I dont know if its when the converter locks up or when its shifting into overdrive but it would turn about 3000 rpms for a long time around 60 mph and then it would lunge into "high" and rpms would drop to 2000. I didnt like that lunge so I stopped and adjusted the TV cable back toward the firewall one notch. That seemed to be perfect.
Got to the shop and he hooked it up to a scan tool and we went for a spin. Normal driving and he said everything looked as it should. Got on a side road and hit it from a standstill and of course it performed flawlessly, pulled good in first and shifted good right when the first red light on the LED tach lit up, went through 2nd and 3rd and each time it shifted right when that first red light lit. Held 13lbs boost solidly all the way. Did this 3 times and each time it ran perfect. He said the scan tool never showed any problems. I can only speculate that whatever that cable hooks to in tranny wasnt operating properly and dicking around with the adjustment corrected it??? :icon_eyes:
On a side note, Steve might remember me chasing this issue. I thought it was making a lifter ticking noise since I bought the car, everyone told me to check drivers side header for cracks or leaks, none. This morning the guy said he thought it was piston slap, he said thats what it acted and sounded like to him? If that is the noise, its slight, he had a really hard time hearing it, should I be concerned?
Think that covers everything that has cropped up on this thread :chin: Thanks for any and all help :icon_lol: , I didnt waht to start a different thread with each new issue!!
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http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/how-to-test-wastegate-solenoid.184874/#post-1296409 (http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/how-to-test-wastegate-solenoid.184874/#post-1296409)
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probably not piston slap with factory pistons...but, who knows for sure. Tearing the engine apart might find a problem with a piston pin or something else, or it may not. I quit worrying about noises even before I lost a lot of my hearing....
Long as it does not get louder, I would concentrate on the next problem in line...there usually is one. :)
Usually, you can hear the solenoid buzz when you ground it if it is working.
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Yes, I'm done worrying about the tick noise.
I was thinking of getting an RJC boost controller and just eliminate the electric solenoid. Tuner style is ok, kinda lazy buildup, but I assume with the boost controller in line from what I've read boost will build similar to how it did using the solenoid.
Yeah, my car seems to create new problems every trip out :icon_lol:
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may well spool faster