IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: TURBOPOWERED68 on March 06 2012, 08:07:37 PM
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I replaced my spark plugs today please take a look them.
and tell me what you think about the tune .
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order
1
2
3
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4
5
6
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6 is the only one that looks like it's a little rich and the others look on the verge of lean.
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how long were those plugs in the engine? I'm guessing for a long time.
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how long were those plugs in the engine? I'm guessing for a long time.
about 24 1/4 runs and 4500 miles.
BTW Gaped at 28
way too long i know :icon_confused: "i'll do it tomorrow" never happened. AND yes i do change the oil very often Before every track outing and just about every 1000 to 1500 miles.
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unless you are running leaded gas, that is not long. They look like they are seeing a lot of oil in the engine to me. Is your car smoking on start up...wondering if the valve stem seals are leaking, or the guides are worn.
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unless you are running leaded gas, that is not long. They look like they are seeing a lot of oil in the engine to me. Is your car smoking on start up...wondering if the valve stem seals are leaking, or the guides are worn.
no smoke that i have noticed. But then again i start it and go so :icon_confused:
i'll have some one start it for me and i'll stand out back to see for my self.
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Are these pulled from a running engine under normal conditions or did you yank them after a WOT pull?
Other than #6 looking a little rich everything is normal for a car running around stoich. Since I don't know your mods or idle AFR I really cannot comment beyond that.
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don't 2 and 6 look rich? Plugs aren't my thing trying to learn though
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Are these pulled from a running engine under normal conditions or did you yank them after a WOT pull?
Other than #6 looking a little rich everything is normal for a car running around stoich. Since I don't know your mods or idle AFR I really cannot comment beyond that.
these plugs have about 24 1/4 runs and 4500 miles.
BTW Gaped at 28
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don't 2 and 6 look rich? Plugs aren't my thing trying to learn though
Look at the ceramic and the electrode Larry. The ceramic on 5 look ok but 2 is a little spotty. 6 however has a dirty electrode and a very spotty ceramic tip. The spots can be oil or carbon but when it's on the electrode then it shows a rich condition.
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and 28 is way too close! I consider 032 too close unless you are making 700 hp or so, and I suspect the stock ignition is good for a lot more than that if it is getting full voltage....Too many cars making way over a 1000 hp have run stock.
And, it looks like the insides of the plugs are full of black goo which is why I asked about oil...might just be my eyes and the photo?
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Today i pulled the plugs to re-gap them and they were completely black All OF THEM. I had to wire brush them before putting them back in
The car is rich as heck in idle And just driving around
if possible - once i get a "A" Wideband on the car i am going to ask Eric to use the files to lean it out some (A lot)
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Was it a dry black or a wet black David? Not counting the threads here. :icon_smile:
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Was it a dry black or a wet black David? Not counting the threads here. :icon_smile:
Dry black carbon.
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Open the gap some like Steve said then. If it looked wet it would be oil so that's a good sign. :rock:
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yep...good sign....
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Open the gap some like Steve said then. If it looked wet it would be oil so that's a good sign. :rock:
yeaup dry
i did open up the gap from 28 to 32
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Today i pulled the plugs to re-gap them and they were completely black All OF THEM. I had to wire brush them before putting them back in
The car is rich as heck in idle And just driving around
if possible - once i get a "A" Wideband on the car i am going to ask Eric to use the files to lean it out some (A lot)
Can't you just program the chip? Lower the fuel pressure until you get O2s down around 780-800 (or blms that are close to 128) hot idle..then use the programming to set the wot fueling.
Those plugs look like a bad o2, or a maf problem to me. Or a fp gauge that does not read right. Or a bad fuel pump and way too much alky.
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Today i pulled the plugs to re-gap them and they were completely black All OF THEM. I had to wire brush them before putting them back in
The car is rich as heck in idle And just driving around
if possible - once i get a "A" Wideband on the car i am going to ask Eric to use the files to lean it out some (A lot)
Can't you just program the chip?
Not idle or cruising ONLY WOT.
i guess turning the fuel pressure down and adding some fuel to WOT to make up for it ???????
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yeah, see my edit above
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when we started the discussion, your car was running way too rich, and, to me, it looked like it was trying to run on alky and was short on gas.
I think you have to go back to the basics and get everything dialed in right. Normally, Eric's default parameters and Julio's suggested alky settings are very close.
If you can get the charging system and voltage supply to the ecm, ignition, and injectors up to snuff as well as get the fuel back on keel, I think you will see a major turn around in how things work and perform.
Sometimes, we have to turn the alky off, boost down, and get the car running right at normal boost before worrying about getting it to run at 25 psi or so with alky spraying
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the fuel gauge is pretty close - Pacecarta tested my fuel system this past summer and it (gauge) pretty much match his handheld gauge.
the BLMs are 139 at idle.
the O2 is a Caspers heated sensor that is about 4 years old.
this is a log from today -after spark plug re-gaping
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julio and Eric make life real simple. If you were honest with Eric when you ordered your chip for the questions he asks...and you told him your max boost level was for 25 PSI...then you should be able to hit that with zero adjusting...an d the 02's showing about 820 at WOT on Erics default setting. As Steve says...get the gremlins sorted out first.
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when we started the discussion, your car was running way too rich, and, to me, it looked like it was trying to run on alky and was short on gas.
I think you have to go back to the basics and get everything dialed in right. Normally, Eric's default parameters and Julio's suggested alky settings are very close.
If you can get the charging system and voltage supply to the ecm, ignition, and injectors up to snuff as well as get the fuel back on keel, I think you will see a major turn around in how things work and perform.
Sometimes, we have to turn the alky off, boost down, and get the car running right at normal boost before worrying about getting it to run at 25 psi or so with alky spraying
i am with you 1000% i just bought a 14 pound actuator that is going on the car and i haven't run it hard for a long time. i even drive around with a white flag :D
my thoughts have been that the car was running lean at WOT because of the ALKY turned all the way up and the O2s were still showing low.????
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julio and Eric make life real simple. If you were honest with Eric when you ordered your chip for the questions he asks...and you told him your max boost level was for 25 PSI...then you should be able to hit that with zero adjusting...an d the 02's showing about 820 at WOT on Erics default setting. As Steve says...get the gremlins sorted out first.
i gave him every detail i had and every description i could
i have come to the conclusion that the WOT lean stuff is due to fuel pump (fuel pump coming soon) or Electricity (hope to have this fixed soon).
the rich idle stuff is something else.
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okay...the ecm is adding fuel like mad, the maf reads in the right range, the o2 looks lazy to me....if the fp is right, then, I would stick a Denso non heated sensor in the car and throw the heated one away. They don't code right, and they lose range with age.
For Twenty some dollars, that is about the cheapest means of trying to double check things that I can think of at the moment. Your plugs confirm what the scantool is telling us.
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okay...the ecm is adding fuel like mad, the maf reads in the right range, the o2 looks lazy to me....if the fp is right, then, I would stick a Denso non heated sensor in the car and throw the heated one away. They don't code right, and they lose range with age.
For Twenty some dollars, that is about the cheapest means of trying to double check things that I can think of at the moment. Your plugs confirm what the scantool is telling us.
OK then
Denso it is.
and a new regular ACDelco O2 sensor. Is this part number "AFS21" correct ?
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I suggested the Denso O2 sensor because I have heard some having problems with the recent Delcos...but, you can try one instead of the Denso brand if you want
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I suggested the Denso O2 sensor because I have heard some having problems with the recent Delcos...but, you can try one instead of the Denso brand if you want
OHHH
i thought (first mistake) you meant Denso Fuel pump.
do you know the Denso part number??
Advance has this listed "Denso Oxygen Sensor Universal
Part No. 234-1000 $14.39"
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that is an universal model
see if they have 234-1001
Damn, price has come down!
I always bought mine from sparkplugs.com
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Nos4GN is the same price as sparkplugs. $14.xx Rockauto looks cheaper $11.xx
Dunno how shipping works for all of them.
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Advance does NOT list the 234-1001 number on the web site at all. :013:
i'll try at the store maybe the counter guys can look it up for me.
Or like Ed suggested earlier i can try Colvins they usually can get special order stuff the same day if its at the local warehouse.
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it seems to be more durable than the AC's. I don't use maf or O2 for fueling but I do still install one for info purposes....ne ver had one go bad yet
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it seems to be more durable than the AC's. I don't use maf or O2 for fueling but I do still install one for info purposes....ne ver had one go bad yet
i will be on the hunt for one tomorrow. If i can't get it locally i'll try the vendors that have been posted here.
thanks again for all your help.
David
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Get it from Glen and be done with it.
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I just so this post for the first time Is that M5 meth.in the ALKY tank or M1 From my old motorcycle days I would say there is a hint of nitromethane and is rich.Never wire brush a plug!when you run a single cylinder two stroke you learn this real quick,no body next door to pickup the slack.My 3.8 has 5000 miles on the plugs has no seals on the EX. valve and puffs a little smoke at start up, and look way better than those.
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Thanks Charlie that's 1 more piece of info to stuff in my tool box! :)
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I just so this post for the first time Is that M5 meth.in the ALKY tank or M1 From my old motorcycle days I would say there is a hint of nitromethane and is rich.Never wire brush a plug!when you run a single cylinder two stroke you learn this real quick,no body next door to pickup the slack.My 3.8 has 5000 miles on the plugs has no seals on the EX. valve and puffs a little smoke at start up, and look way better than those.
i am using M1
and i have seals on the exhaust valves
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Yeah you have to sort out that BLM issue before sorting out anything else.
And Steve is right about baselining your car before trying to run it at full blast.
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Yeah you have to sort out that BLM issue before sorting out anything else.
And Steve is right about baselining your car before trying to run it at full blast.
the car is being grandma driven for a long time now.
found the Denso 234-1001 @ Colvins i'll be picking it up in a little while.
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add a new set of plugs to the purchase...I have never had good luck getting a set of fouled plugs to run right after cleaning....:)
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add a new set of plugs to the purchase...I have never had good luck getting a set of fouled plugs to run right after cleaning....:)
CR43TS again?
what is the definition of Fouled? not trying to be a smart ass seriously trying to learn.
dry carbon on them-Not trying to be cheap but i don't want to be wasteful either.
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Dry carbon is as bad as oil fouled. It can create conductive carbon tracks, creating shorts.
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the CR's are Ed's favorite, I like Autolites...in your case Autolite 24s, NGK's seem to be Dan's (Grumpy) preference. Those would be UR5's.
Like Mark said...it does not take much to get one to misfire with a little boost in the cylinder
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If you have access to a propane torch you can burn the carbon off. Done it many times before without damage. The ceramic needs to turn cherry red to burn it all off but it will burn it off. I don't like blasting them and the torch will show any cracks in the center.
You point the flame at the center and you'll see it flair once it get hot enough to burn everything off.. :icon_smile:
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OK a new set of CR43TS it is, since its what i have been using and seem to have worked for me.
i'll also bring them up to a 35 gap.
new logs coming soon.
before and after O2 change
and
before and after plug change again but at 35 gap this time.
wish me luck
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If you have access to a propane torch you can burn the carbon off. Done it many times before without damage. The ceramic needs to turn cherry red to burn it all off but it will burn it off. I don't like blasting them and the torch will show any cracks in the center.
You point the flame at the center and you'll see it flair once it get hot enough to burn everything off.. :icon_smile:
yeaup i have a torch.
thanks for the idea Charlie i'll do it to the set i am going to pull off of the car and keep them as a back up set as they have only about 1.5 hours of use.
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That's exactly why I suggested it David. :icon_smile: I prefer new plugs but this keeps you from having to buy a second set for back up. :rock: I usually put them in a vise to hold several at a time but you have to let them cool off for a while before touching them. First time I did it I didn't think about it and I'm sure you have an idea of what happened. :icon_redface: :rofl:
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installed the Denso o2 and a Wideband
didn't get a chance to replace the Spark plugs
:013:i guess i over did it with recording the drive because the the file is too big to load :(
i'll log it again in a little while and post it up.
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put the plugs in it and try to get a baseline that is "right" as possible before flooding us with data that may, or may not, be worth the effort.
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put the plugs in it and try to get a baseline that is "right" as possible before flooding us with data that may, or may not, be worth the effort.
OK
Good point since i also have a Translator going in in a few days and that might change things.
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Was it a Translator Pro you bought? I seem to remember something about that.
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Was it a Translator Pro you bought? I seem to remember something about that.
Regular Translator and LS1 3.5 inch MAF
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your current maf number looked okay, so I doubt you will find any difference
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your current maf number looked okay, so I doubt you will find any difference
more worried about it coming apart again
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The Translater is in and working. the reason for the LS1 Maf is because my OE one is literally glued together.
i was going to change the plugs out again but before i do i'll ask another dumb question.
Should i try to get the tune closer to where it needs to be THEN put in a new set of plugs and try to fine tune it further????
Worried about the tune being so far off that it will foul out another set of brand new plugs.
thanks for the help guys.
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If you've got a propane torch you can take the plugs and heat the tip up to burn them off David. That way you'll have a clean set to use. Done this many times myself when I get fouled plugs. Just make sure they're cool before you try and put them back in. :cool;
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i did that to my spares.
i just don't want to end up with 50 sets of spare plugs :icon_confused: