IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Steve Wood on March 03 2012, 11:43:16 PM
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Every once in awhile I work on my site trying to add stuff while I can still remember. :D
this is one of the pages I have been working on
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/engine_starts_but_does_not_run_p.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/engine_starts_but_does_not_run_p.htm)
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Are new gears available for the cam sensor?
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don't know if anything interchanges with them, or not, from a much newer car
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Webber sells ultra composite gears for over $100 if you need one.
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this may sound dumb but i have never had to shim a distributor and am not sure where you would put the shim.
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You pull the gear off the distributor shaft, slide the shim or shims on and then reinstall the gear. That then reduces the amount of movement up and down possible in the shaft
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http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/cam_sensor.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/cam_sensor.htm)
Look at the second picture. See the brass roll pin in the gear? Drive that out. Then slip the shim(s) over the shaft and reinstall the gear and pin it.
People used to talk about 0.020" up/down free play in the shaft, but, as I said, the new ones are close to 0.050" so that seems reasonable.
Those that had to put shims between the cap and the base of the sensor (over the cap screws), probably have a very loose shaft-or so I guess
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I would not be too concerned with up/down play unless it hitting the cap or excessive. Side play from a worn bushing would be more troublesome since it will alter the reluctor airgap and cause a miss. I thing you can go at least .060-075 up/down and still be good.
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That would sound good to me except for one thing-
Over the past few years we have seen a number of cases where the cap had to be shimmed up with a couple of thin washers in order to get the car to run right and quit missing
Shim the cap up, or, in my case, pull the reluctor down
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Two problems here. I found some off brand caps and maybe now all caps made offshore are not made to factory spec. So the shimming of the cap will solve this. The MAF needs to be setup so it won't drag or put pressure on the cam gear or hang up on the oil pump drive. Just keep that in mind if you decide to fix the miss with gear shims.
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so you are against shimming back to where the new ones measure to be on clearance-which is what I suggested above?
At any rate, had an email from the second guy that had a problem and rotating his an 1/8" ccw fixed his miss under light throttle and boost as well. Down to Keith, now :)
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Not at all. I agree 100% with all you said. I'm making a general statement to be careful when you shim gears. Also new caps are shit and out of spec.
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we gotta work with what we have, or can get...it's Chinese Syndrome
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still waiting for extra time to adjust the sensor, but I will let you know as soon as i have completed. Thanks
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ok Steve, I moved the cam sensor and the car did idle a lil better and vertical play was .35 . butttttttt still when I unpluged the sensor it sounds like the injectors get loader and working over time and the idle gets bad
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It goes to batch mode, but it should still run well...but...d id you go drive the car with it plugged in after rotating the sensor?
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btw, are you sure you installed the sensor properly and not 180 out? usually they run pretty badly when 180 out, but sometimes they run fairly well
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no I havent, I didnt trust running it with all that noise it made after I unplugged it
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it should not make noise, but, anyway, I wanted you to drive it with it plugged in after you rotated the sensor?
Something sure sounds wrong, tho...in batch mode, it sprays half the cylinders at a time rather than individually.. .used to be an old trick that we unplugged the sensor when we raced because we thought it might give us more fuel...that was long ago. :)
you mean the cam sensor had more than a quarter inch of play up and down?
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sorry .035 in
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I am pretty sure the sensor is set right.
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did you drive it after you turned it?
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I shimmed my cam sensor years ago; I had to rape a few SBC distributors to get the shims. I don't remember the final tolerance once shimmed but it was a significant improvement.
With respect to the 180*-out issue I was reading in this month's GMHTP that they had "lag" issues which they attributed to the cam sensor being installed incorrectly. Evidently after they put the Caspers cam sensor tool on the car and got it sorted out the car woke up. I am not sure if this is just more magazine snake-oil I was exposed to while sitting on the crapper or not?
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ok went for a drive, didnt feel any difference when in throttle but at idle it was very rough. hooked the cam sensor back and went for another drive first gear felt good but when i hit 2 it feel on its face and i got 13.9 knock. so i came pack home and parked it, slammed the door and tought about kicking the outside but i didnt want to hurt my foot, sorry i am just upset guys
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Okay, first thing I would do is put the car on TDC, then rotate the crank so the balancer is at 25 ATDC. Then remove the cap and see if the sensor is positioned as shown on my site.
Before you put the cap back on, clean the inside of the cap, magnet and all, with some alcohol to get any dust off and out.
Either it is not set correctly, or you have a related problem. It should run very well with the sensor disconnected. You can come drive either one of my cars and I challenged you to tell the difference.
If it is properly set, then I would wonder if the balancer ring is slipped, or such
Relax, cars, boats, and women are all designed to piss you off. Borrowing them is always better than owning them.
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will check tomorrow,
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just in case someone else has been following this thread, re-timed the cam sensor and still had the same issue, now Steve was kind enough to send me a cam sensor to try to compare, still the same issues, Steve and I have talked and have desided to try a different ECM, it is on order at the moment. I have also ordered another cam sensor cap as I cracked mine, and will be sending Steve's back to him. I will update when I change the ECM.
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Keith, we need to be prepared to swap the module if the ecm does not fix it...
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Before you install the new ECM try this, Pull off all the plugs on the ecm. Check with ohm meter that all values are over 20ohms between:
A6 to A2
A6 to A3
A6 to A4
A6 to A7
A6 to C1
A6 to C2
C3 to C4
C5 to C6
You are checking at the plugs NOT the ecm. This will check all the wiring to the ecm first. (ecm removed)
I also check the pinout's on the ECM. If you can't read this I sent a copy for Steve' webpage a few years ago.
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i will check all, Thanks
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ok just finished changing the cam sensor cap and the ECM ( i didnt remember to check the the pinouts until i logged back on here) but the idle is worse and when i unplug the cam sensor the car shuts off
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lol..wrong direction of progress.
Maybe it is time to check the connector... A11 is the wire that carries the cam signal to the ecm. Make sure that pin is connected solidly to the wire and is inserting properly into the ecm
check the voltage on it as per http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ecmwiring.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ecmwiring.htm) also
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Also, go to the module connector and make sure all the pins are straight and inserting properly
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Is your module a factory unit, or one of the aftermarket replacements?
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11.26 v on A11 pin is locked in place
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I suspect that is a yellow wire and not black like that diagram shows, but, I am not sure...long as it is a11...
Now, if you bump the engine over, does the voltage drop low and then come back to a high voltage?
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do i check this with the ECM plugged in ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, module came from CASpers in 2009 when i converted from the 85 module
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unless failed, it should be good, then.
Yes, check with it plugged in...may be hard to see...best way would be to connect the meter and have someone watch it while you turn the crank with a socket/breaker bar...remember, depending on where the window in the sensor is, you may have to turn it over up to two times
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yes voltage drops and returns
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so that seems to me as if the cam sensor, the module, and the harness are working....
I have no clue why the change of ecm would make it even worse.
Is the cam sensor still clocked an 1/8" ccw from the setting position? If so, try rotating it a 1/4" in the opposite direction, CW.
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the new cap is slotted, could i turn just the cap or do I need to turn the housing
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it is slotted? never saw one that was slotted...that throws a variable into the equation...I guess it is slotted on both screws because you could not rotate it otherwise.
Do you still have the one I sent you?
Everything I read makes me think that the cam sensor needs to be moved a bit....but normally, you would rotate the housing.
We did check to make sure the wheel is still pinned into a fixed position so that it cannot rotate out of position, didn't we?
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If you have my cap, put it back on, hook up your meter, rotate the housing back clockwise a piece so you have high voltage, then rotate it back ccw until the voltage just falls..stop right there and tighten the housing clamp...in other words exactly as the book says.
If you don't, take the cap with the slots and rotate it back CW until the voltage rises, then reset CCW to exactly where the voltage falls....again, exactly as per the book
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After you get the cam sensor set by Steve's instructions and if still running bad put the old ecm back in. You need to zero in on the problem.
defective new ecm
you moved faulty wires
bent pins or not seated
chips not seated or pins bent
Also do the pinout voltage on the ecm's and ecm harness as we suggested.
Unless you have a cam that was degree in wrong Steve's cam sensor should work with out a miss even if off a few degree's.
Not sure if you checked the crank sensor. Make sure it's set correct and not rubbing (chewed up) from the balancer.
I seen head gaskets just starting push out cause the symptoms you have. Maybe a compression/ leakdown test may be in order if all above fails.
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Probably not related to your problem...but Dans car developed a miss last year...and it had us stumped. We swapped out the electrical stuff...and it was still there. We called in a friend that's an electrical wizard. One of the TPS wires was broken inside the insulation. Fixed the wire...good to go.
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Ed raised a point that I had meant to...be sure the crank sensor is in the correct slot and properly clearanced on all three blades of the reluctor/damper blades-also be sure it is not wobbling and is also tight...takes lotsa torque on these cars
Hook up a timing light and shine it on damper while revving the engine to see if it walks back/forth or sideways
think you said it did the same thing on the prior engine, but....
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yes Steve the cap is slotted its a caspers cap. but this weekend i am pulling the timing cover to replace the seal and will have to reset the cam sensor so I will adjusting it again. i know i have a lil miss issue which doesnt seem to be a very big deal to me, It runs good enough to drive, my concern it the fact that when i unplug the cam sensor and it runs rough or shuts the engine down makes me wonder what that problem is, so I will start from scratch saturday. last night i started testing the harness at the ecm and there were some voltage not as per the diagrams but i think it was the ones that went to the wastegate controller and erg selonoid, but i will check it and mark all results
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yes, it ain't right until it runs well without the cam sensor plugged in....if you have a caspers, then follow his instructions for setting.
For our enlightment, tell us what you have done....I understand that you converted from the hot air to an intercooled set up.
Is this the same engine? Or did you change engines...aski ng because you told me you had the problem before.
Is this the same wiring harness?
Did you change cal pak chips when you changed the ecm?
Have you cranked it up with a timing light hooked up and strobed the balancer while revving the engine to make sure you don't have the crank walking back and forth due to too much thrust clearance? Also look for wobble in the balancer. Check all three blades on the crank sensor for proper clearance. You can get under the car with the timing light and strobe the crank sensor to make sure it is not getting ticked when someone revs the engine.
Check the module connector for bent pins or corrosion. Check the ecm connectors for bent pins or corrosion as well as all pushing into the ecm rather than backing out of the connectors.
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this is the same engine , different wire harness, cal-pack was the correct numbers for 86-87 ecm when i converted the module, coil pack and ecm,. I will check on pins tomorrow when i have time to really take my time and observe. my timing light is broken and dont want to purchase another.
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go borrow one, then :) very handy tool for looking for odd ball stuff
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I have an old chrome Sears timing light - looks like a Battlestar Gallactica gun (original series with Erin Grey)
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worked on the GN from 930AM to 8pm, but not working on the electrical issues. I changed upper and lower ball joints, upper control arm bushings, complete tie rod replacement, front brake pads, turned rotors, repacked bearings and replaced seals. I am worn out. hopefully I have the energy to work on the electrical tomorrow if i dont go to the track.
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damn, come spend a couple of weeks with me...maybe I will get motivated!
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completed the ecm pinout check attached is the results. I put my old ECM back in to check, also retimed the cam sensor, checked pins on the coilpack, checked spark plugs they all look good and are all burning the same, car still turning off when i unplug the cam sensor.
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It has to be 180deg out if all checks out ok. I would reset it. Also large injectors like 50's or 60's can flood and stall in batch mode but with 38lb that is not a problem.
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to me it sounds like it would be loading up, If i rev it it idles down and is OK for about 5-10 sec then it starts stumbling.
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What is the fuel pressue set at (static) at idle and vacuum line off?
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I have no idea at all. It still sounds like a fuel timing problem. I would be very tempted to rotate the slot a 180 degs from the current setting and see if it runs better, or backfires....
Other than finding tdc on the balancer to see if the ring has slipped, I don't know what to say...somethin g is wrong, but what it is, I don't know.
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I am giving up myself and will just run it like it is. :icon_eyes: maybe just need to walk away for awhile. when i set the new cam sensor as per their instruction it would not start and backfired , so i bolted the cap in one place and move the balancer to 25 dg ATDC and moved the cam housing and used my meter to reset. I need to but another fuel pressure gauge, I lost a part one my old one and cant use it.
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Did you check the crank sensor as suggested earlier?
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if you set it per instructions and it backfired, either it is 180 out, or the ring on the balancer has slipped....I am guessing that
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X2 or the crank sensor is damaged.
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had my wife with me today with a hose in the spark plug hole and her finger on it to find TDC, it has a lil puff on one strock and a big long puff on the next, which would be TDC compression stroke. when i had the balancer off today i tried to moce the ring and could not but that doesnt mean that it didnt turn before.
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i am remembering now that when i had the balancer off , one of the slots was even with the timing mark.
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If it were me, I would use a piston stop and find tdc to see if it coincides with the mark on the balancer, or is in a different place
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maybe someone has a balancer they can look at....?
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we did check the piston, it was right on mark and tdc
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Did you check the crank sensor for proper alignment on all three blades as Ed has been asking?
Did you pull the cover off to replace the seal? If you did, did you check to make sure the cam gear mark is lined up properly with the cam gear mark?
How many pounds of compression do you see when you do a compression test on a cylinder?
Your crank sensor install look like this http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/cranksensor.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/cranksensor.htm) ?
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yes i checked the blade, it looked like one had rubbed a lil so i readjusted. No i didnt pull the cover to replace the seal, that was the only good part of my day, not having to pull it. last time i checked all cylinders were at 135- 140.
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Steve did you look at the numbers from the ecm test, the ones that are off to me are A10,B10,D5 and some of the low number didnt match, ex. B3 diagram shows it @ .14, my number is .008, D10 diagram shows .07, i am at .007. some of the others that i am off are the a/c, egr, wastegate, but i dont have these hooked up
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I don't know about the voltages...I have always found some variation from the list on them so unless completely wrong, I tend to ignore the smaller ones.
Might check the compression on number one again since it is easy...
Being that John's cap did not work when you followed his instructions.. .gets us back to being 180 out, being off due to a ring slip, or a badly stretched chain/off a tooth on the cam. That is how I see it at the moment.
Have you tried cranking the engine up, and with the cam sensor connected, tried rotating the cam sensor housing a little in both directions to see if it runs better? If it backfires, you obviously went too far.
turn it a bit, then unplug the sensor and see if it runs better, no change, or gets worse.
If that does not work, pull it up, and reinstall with the slot pointing directly opposite of where you currently have it.
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The voltages can vary due the the state of charge condition of your battery, ambient temps and voodoo. Only if it's way out of spec, then be concerned. What about the ohm test on the harness connectors @ the ecm?
You also said the crank sensor showed signs of hitting. I would replace it
After this I would spin the cam sensor 180 deg as Steve said. It sure sounds like a 180 out problem.
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only had time to test the connectors at ECM. my digital meter was not showing ohms it would just show 0.0, so i used a different meter that showed continuity but i could not say how much because it was adjustible. A6 to A2- had continuity, A6 to A3 -did not, A6 to A4- did not, A6 to A7 did have, A6 to C1 did not because there is not a wire in C1 nor C2, C3 to C4 did have, C5 to C6 did have , for A3 I dont have canister, for A4 I dont have EGR.
I did purchase a new crank sensor today but didnt have time to install it.
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trying to find a used balancer
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In the mean time, try rotating the sensor...crank it up, rotate it a bit, unplug the sensor and see if it runs better or worse than before...if it backfires, do it in the opposite direction. If it gets better, or stays the same, replug it, and turn it a bit more and unplug again. See if you can find a spot where it runs well when unplugged.
If it never gets better in either direction. Suck it up, forget that you know you have it installed properly and rotate the window 180 degs and see what happens after installling it in that mode.
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put the new crank sensor in, rotated the sensor in both directions about 1/8" at a time starting and stoping the engine at every move, still the same untill i get to far where it would not start, everytime i try to unplug the sensor it shuts down, rotated the sensor 180 and still the exact same crap. :013:
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If I had a module spare, I would send it to you to try. Something is definitely wrong and I don't understand what it could be.
The cam sensor diagram shows the signal being sent to the module and going thru a buffer/amplifier which I would guess cleans up the signal and amplifies it..then it comes out and goes to the ecm. I would like to think that a voltage drop at the ecm end would show it was working, but, maybe not.
Why don't you give John Spina a call and ask if he has any ideas. Be sure to tell him it would not run when you installed his cap as per the instructions
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a video , the cracking sound is a pulley making noise everytime it sputters
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ok put the camsensor back to instructions. when the engine is idling ok I can unplug the cam sensor and it doesnt shut off the engine, but if it is running rough and i unplug it it kills the engine. I am very lost and dont know what else to do,
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As I suggested above, call John
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also, see if you can get with Theo or Clay and swap coil/module packs and try one of their ecms as well
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i had ordered a used ecm from G-body and put it in which didn't change. I dont know the guys you mentioned, are they near me?
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Theo is Poppy1440 and Clay is Nasty Wendy....yes, they are not too far
I mention the ecm just to have the luxury for KNOWing that it was good although I would think there is only about a 1% chance you would get one with the same problem
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i spoke to John this morning and he is thinking the module, he also mentioned trying to change the fuel pressure. I am going to try a new O2 sensor to start,
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Module would be top of my list at the moment if the balance mark has not shifted....
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I also mentioned fuel pressure a few pages ago. You said you have no fp gauge. Try and back off (ccw) the fpr adjustment screw one full turn and see if it helps. If not just move back.
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I had not noticed the lack of a fuel pressure gauge... sure needs to be right, but I don't know how it would affect the cam sensor...on the other hand, if the blms and o2s are good at idle, then the fuel pressure is adequate for idle and that would have no effect on the cam sensor...at idle
I assume the coil/module bracket is well grounded to the engine, the pack is tightly bolted to the bracket, and there is a groundstrap to the firewall?
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Not sure if it would matter but the plug wires are opposite on the 87 coil compared to 85 coil. How are yours set up ?. I attached a diagram.
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that makes no difference at all....IF the module is wired properly to the coil pack
see bottom diagram http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/coil.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/coil.htm)
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took me two hours one day on the T I built for my son to figure out that a prior owner had mis wired the module and somehow routed the plug wires to run anyway.... :D
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That was my next question. If you flip the green and yellow wire to make it run with plug wires wrong, you could have issues
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Okay, Keith, let's start over from ground zero.
Ed and I spend too much time talking about what might be the problem and each time, we don't know enuf to have a good argument :D
First, let's start at the beginning. You first converted the car from the hot air ecm to the 86/87 ecm as I recall. What all did you change to do this and where did you get the instructions? I remember you talking about it a couple of years ago. You said you had a new harness. Which harness is this?
What maf are you using now? At one time you were using one I gave you but I think it died. Are you using a rebuilt factory maf, or did you go to a Translator/LS or LT maf?
Then more recently, you converted the car to being intercooled. Did you get rid of the hot air intake set up with the turbo at the back and replace it with the intake from and intercooled set up along with the headers to mount the turbo at the front of the engine?
Are you running an alky chip or a regular chip?
My guess is that you have at least two problems, and maybe more. So far we have been concentrating on the cam sensor which is not behaving properly, but from the symptoms we started out with, this may be one problem which could be a module or maybe wiring if something was wrong in the original conversion.
On the other hand, the miss at part throttle, low boost, that changed when we moved the alky turn on point upward....that could be something to do with the cam senor, or maybe it is not. If you are using a rebuilt factory maf, it could be a wrongly calibrated maf that is not giving the right air flow numbers at part throttle, or maybe a fuel pump that is losing pressure as the boost comes on. Having the alky start early could possibly cover it up by covering up the low fuel pressure of a bad pump, or the wrong airflow numbers from a badly calibrated maf.
Given what we don't know, maybe we should start by looking at the basics before we start chasing the geese.
With the car warmed up to 165 degs, or so.. let it idle and give us all the scanmaster numbers. Also, give us the vacuum at idle...both in park and in drive.
Put a fuel pressure gauge on it and tell us what the pressure is at wot thottle in third along with the boost you are seeing...and, of course, what the pressure was at idle with the hose off the regulator so we know if things are working, or not.
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Just a pic of the wires.
AJ___
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also do you have a known good cam sensor...John had a bad batch at one time...my car car would start run and then shut down...with johns new cap..I swapped in my old one and it was fine
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ok I have the 85 block, 85 turbo upgraded, and everything else is 87---- coil, module, intake, headers, etc.. I do have translator and i think its the impala ss MAF. I have front mount intercooler, razors alky, TT alky chip. ****** now today Steve I started the car and unpluged the cam sensor it started to idle a lil rough but when I give it throttle it seems to be fine, which is what John said that It would load up a lil at idle because the fuel is puddling on the cyclinder that is not firing. so that leaves me to think that its not the sensor. I dont know if this is a miss or just a fuel issue, the only think that makes me thinks its a miss is that when i am driving and the trans goes into OD I can feel the bump like a miss. I havent had time to pick up a part for my fuel pressure gauge yet, but I will soon. I did have a chance to check all my ground and they are all good clean and tight, I added a 12 gauge wire from the block to one of the screws on the module just from insurance. Please note that this issue is not is happening about two to three times in a minute and is not a constant miss .
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strange...I will unplug my car with 75# injectors tomorrow and see how long it takes it to act up...never saw it do it, but, I have not let it idle very long. Ed wondered about it loading up earlier.
But something seems to have changed. Until now, you said it idled very rough and the car could not be driven as it seemed to be running on three cylinders if you tried. So, what changed?
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it was a cold start it usually run decent for a 1-2 minutes before it starts to acked up on a cold start
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so, I am confused....yo u said it would run very badly, and more recently it would actually kill the engine. I am trying to find out if there has been any change from where it is right now, and how it has been since we started chasing the problem. At the moment, it seems close to normal as opposed to running very badly in the past.
We have spent several days trying to find out why it would not run when unplugged, and tonight, it sounds like it is not really that bad. Is there a change? :)
Further, did you drive the car? Is it still cutting out an missing when the boost starts to come up under part throttle?
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Something I ran across a few times. I want you to try something. Start the car then disconnect the fuel pump. Let the car run dry and stall. Remove the schrader valve from the fuel rail. Hook up a temp hose and hold a clear bottle to catch the fuel. Hook up the fuel pump for a second and then disconnect when you get about a pint of fuel. Now look and see after the fuel settles if it's full of metal flakes and rust.
Also did you buy the injectors or they came with the intake? Post the numbers that are on the injectors
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so, I am confused....yo u said it would run very badly, and more recently it would actually kill the engine. I am trying to find out if there has been any change from where it is right now, and how it has been since we started chasing the problem. At the moment, it seems close to normal as opposed to running very badly in the past.
We have spent several days trying to find out why it would not run when unplugged, and tonight, it sounds like it is not really that bad. Is there a change? :)
Further, did you drive the car? Is it still cutting out an missing when the boost starts to come up under part throttle?
Steve when at idle at normal operating temp and the engine is running rough that is when the car shuts off when i unplug the sensor, but on the cold start the engine is idling a lil better and faster so when i unplug it it stays running, at one point when we were moving timing around there was a point where it would not run at all when unplugged.
I did not get to drive the car because of rain yesterday,
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Something I ran across a few times. I want you to try something. Start the car then disconnect the fuel pump. Let the car run dry and stall. Remove the schrader valve from the fuel rail. Hook up a temp hose and hold a clear bottle to catch the fuel. Hook up the fuel pump for a second and then disconnect when you get about a pint of fuel. Now look and see after the fuel settles if it's full of metal flakes and rust.
Also did you buy the injectors or they came with the intake? Post the numbers that are on the injectors
these were my injectors some delfi-38
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Then, I would guess the car does not idle properly when warmed up even when the cam sensor is plugged in?
That would seem to indicate that the car is too lean in many cases.
So back to square one. Give us your scantool readings for blms, O2s, and voltage when the car is above 165 degs with the car in drive. Also give us the vacuum at idle in drive at the same time.
The prior six pages are why five minutes of real time is equal to two weeks of internet time...
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Here is a good place to buy a pressure gauge...or just the fitting if that is all you need http://www.metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MFP0001 (http://www.metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MFP0001)
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Okay
Two cars
GN-75# injectors, 210 deg roller cam, ported heads--started first time in three months. Warmed up to 165 degs, unplugged cam sensor, check engine came on, idled for five minutes and never skipped a beat...ran perfectly.
T-50# injectors, stock cam, ported heads....drove it a 100 miles yesterday. Warmed it up to 167 degs, unplugged cam sensor, check engine lite came on, idled for five minutes and never skipped a beat..ran perfectly
So much on the fuel puddling and loading up the engine theory...in my experience anyway.
This has been my experience with my cars since 1986. It corresponds to all others that I have worked on that were running right. I am guessing that there is a problem some place that is going to take scantool data and fuel pressure data to start with.
If you drive the car with it warm so the O2 sensor is reading correctly, when you stop and let it idle, at that time you should be seeing around 780-800 before the O2 begins to cool down. BLM's should be very close to 128.
If you don't have fuel pressure gauge, then turn the alky off, lower the boost to 16 psi, and then go wot in third gear while watching the O2s. They should be around 780 if the fuel pressure is adequate. It is important to get the alky turned off so we can see what the fuel pump is doing. Otherwise the alky can make one run seemingly okay even when the pump is weak.
If it will not run properly without alky, you only increase the chance blowing something up if you turn the alky on and turn the boost up....alky does not fix problems, it only gets you deeper over your head if the car does not run right to begin with.
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also, give us the vacuum with the car fully warmed up and in drive...if the reading is not steady, describe it
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car fully warmed up, in drive === vac -12-13 , 02s - 828-832, Af-07, L8-46-48, bat-13.7, int-128, bl-135, clt-184, ats-97, rpm 800-825, tps-.42, iac-45, cc-05 and does not move for a minute are so and when it does in only counts by 2-5. Vac @idle in park-14-15
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Okay...
First thing I see is that the car is not making enuf vacuum for some reason. It should be reading a steady 16-17 in-hg at warm idle in gear IF the car has as stock cam. If the needle is bouncing 2-5 " hg, I would be looking for a miss, or a big vacuum leak assuming the compression is relatively similar on all cylinders.
Have you warmed up the car and disconnected each injector to see if there is one cylinder, or more, that does not affect the idle speed when the injector is disconnected?
Now, the car appears to be rich at idle, but, the maf is reading on the high side of the range so the ecm may be adding a bit more fuel....the cc may not be germane at idle because Eric's chip runs a form of open loop at idle for a smoother steader idle speed. I would install one of the denso O2 sensors so we know we have a good sensor. Also, we may be getting some effect from the miss....and we don't know what the fuel pressure is altho I would say it is close.
Other than getting a new O2 sensor, I would leave everything else alone and try to see if you can find a miss so we don't waste time trying to tune with a miss in the car.
Spray some carb cleaner around the egr, the base of the plenum, the throttle body, on hoses, etc. to see if the idle changes. Don't remember if you checked the pcv to see if it is working properly and not stuck partially open?
Try Ed's suggestion to see if you get any trash out the fuel rail. Did you get the injectors new, or used?
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Okay...
First thing I see is that the car is not making enuf vacuum for some reason. It should be reading a steady 16-17 in-hg at warm idle in gear IF the car has as stock cam. If the needle is bouncing 2-5 " hg, I would be looking for a miss, or a big vacuum leak assuming the compression is relatively similar on all cylinders.
Have you warmed up the car and disconnected each injector to see if there is one cylinder, or more, that does not affect the idle speed when the injector is disconnected?
Now, the car appears to be rich at idle, but, the maf is reading on the high side of the range so the ecm may be adding a bit more fuel....the cc may not be germane at idle because Eric's chip runs a form of open loop at idle for a smoother steader idle speed. I would install one of the denso O2 sensors so we know we have a good sensor. Also, we may be getting some effect from the miss....and we don't know what the fuel pressure is altho I would say it is close.
Other than getting a new O2 sensor, I would leave everything else alone and try to see if you can find a miss so we don't waste time trying to tune with a miss in the car.
Spray some carb cleaner around the egr, the base of the plenum, the throttle body, on hoses, etc. to see if the idle changes. Don't remember if you checked the pcv to see if it is working properly and not stuck partially open?
Try Ed's suggestion to see if you get any trash out the fuel rail. Did you get the injectors new, or used?
ok fuel pressure line off 42, line on 36, at 21psi boost 60 psi of fuel pressure (this is a old cheap gauge). I made a pull in third gear then stopped and in drive the numbers were o2-816, af-8, L8-51-54,bat-13.6, bl-132, cc-149 not changing. vac 12-13. . o2 at WOT @85mph were 768,
I have checked the injectors and there was a change in every one, I did buy the injectors new from nos4gn in 2010.
I have dont the fuel check and only found one little peice of rubber but that may have come from the hose , other than that is was clean.
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one thing i did notice was at 35 mph in third gear the blm were @ 121-125 so it is pulling fuel
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could be a gauge error...on the fuel pressure
but, the question is...why no vacuum
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one thing i did notice was at 35 mph in third gear the blm were @ 121-125 so it is pulling fuel
I would not consider that significant...
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may have to make you a pressure tester and see if the intake/heads will hold pressure fairly well with the rocker arms removed, or does the air come hissing out some place
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new o2 sensor made on diff. (sorry Steve I had already purchased a bosch). I sprayed starter fluid and had on luck finding a leak. Also tried unplugging the injectors again, everyone made a difference. I will have to wait for more time to do a pressure test. thanks Steve
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bosch is the worst of all....but, I doubt it is giving bad info right now
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Try and plug up the PVC line and see if the vacuum goes up. one inch of vacuum would be normal but a few inches will point to a bad PVC and the source of your low vacuum.
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put new pcv valve in and no change, crimped line to pcv and no change, vac at idle is 15 when idling good, 13 when running rough
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be sure to spray around the vacuum block as well as make sure the screws are tight.
Might pull all the hoses off the vacuum block and put your hand over the ports to see if the vacuum goes up and stabilizes.
If you put vacuum brakes on the car, close off that line as well
Did the car show this same vacuum before you changed over? Wondering if the intake gasket is leaking
Does it have noisy lifters?
Any change if you spray cleaner over the throttleshaft ends?
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i spray everywhere, i even sprayed around the intake where i could reach, yes i do have vacuum brakes and will check that tomorrow, yes i do have lifter noise, there is one that is really bad when i do compression test or turn the engine over without starting , it takes a couple of minutes to prime back up. I am going to take my throttle body off and clean vacuum block and IAC housing.
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so I wonder if that lifter is not always pumped up? When it gets bad enuf to throw the push rod out, you will know :D
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The lack of proper vacuum is a sign.. Of what? I don't know. :)
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This is easier then writing it all :cool;
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I will not be totally surprised if 3E is wiped.
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so i would be at - Steady very low-late valve timing. Steve what is 3E?.
I wanted to mention the I have blown 2 exhaust manifold gaskets in the past two weeks drivers side first one was at back of engine, second was at front, actually putting about 1/2 inch hole in both,
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lifter on cylinder 3 Exhaust
that is what you get for using exhaust gaskets
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seems to me there are a lot more issues going on than is known...exampl e going thru exhaust gaskets...you have exhaust leaks...which throws all kinds of whacked info to the 02 sensor...which intern effect fueling...ther e seems to many things wrong that it seems to be hard to pinpoint the exact issue and cause.
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My suggestion is to find the noisy lifter before it tosses the pushrod, you lose oil pressure immediately, and blow the engine. I would not drive the car until that issued if resolved. If you are lucky, it will be a bad lifter and the cam will be okay. If you are not, the cam lobe will be scrubbed and you will need a new cam and a new set of lifters.
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I guess i need to do a compression test. anyway i will be cancelling my trip to Nashville in the GN and take the wifes 2011 regal turbo instead. My son was wanting me to drive the GN up there. I told him today that I wasnt and that I have issues with it and I need more time to figure it out. so now I am not stressing to get this thing right.
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Oh, I would definitely take the 2011 Regal Turbo on the trip!
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compression results, 1-135, 3-135, 5-135, 2-135, 4-140, 6-145
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Pretty low...but, not sure that would cause what you are seeing...was the engine warm, and the throttle held wide open?
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if it was warm...they are low...if warm mine were in the 160's...still would not explain the miss...just a thought...i am sure all the grounds are in place...
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car was very warm and throttle blade was wide open
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I would not be surprised to find a bad cam, a tooth or two off the timing gear, and/or worn out rings....It's all a guess until you open it up and look at a few things.
Did you put a new timing chain set on it?
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I didn't see where the vacuum was just low, or low and fluctuating. Key info.
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I didn't see where the vacuum was just low, or low and fluctuating. Key info.
Seemed to be consistently low, but also bobbled at times as I recall
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Squirt some oil in the cylinders and see if it changes. Also try the compression tester on a good car and make sure it's ok. When I see numbers close like that on a old car I like to double check.
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I didn't see where the vacuum was just low, or low and fluctuating. Key info.
Seemed to be consistently low, but also bobbled at times as I recall
So if it was low and fluctuating, the 3E lifter would really be likely. But, just low vacuum: valve timing, clogged exhaust, vacuum leak.... or am I missing something?
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there are too many unknowns to draw solid conclusions... when I hear that a lifter is noisy and takes a long time to become quieter, I get nervous...I don't think this car has run properly for a long time remembering conversations on the other board.
As I said earlier, I suspect there is more than one thing that is not right and we have been chasing our tails trying to find just one.
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timing chain has about 8,000 miles on it. when I get back from Nashville I will pull the timing cover and check things, I am also picking up another harmonic balancer from a freind in Miss. , If my rings were worn wouldn't it be smoking?. I had the engine out of the car about 4 months ago and intake off, I did a mic test on the whole cam to check lift and all lobes were within .005 of the spec intake and exhaust. so I will pull the timing cover and go from there.
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you better find out why you have a noisy lifter
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changed out lifters with some slightly used known good ones. pulled timing cover and checked chain, its is good and marks are in line. still an issue with low vacuum, the only way is will get to 20 is in park at 2000 rpms. so at idle it is still at 15. i am trying to find someone local with a smoke machine.
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You put used lifters on the cam? That is the guaranteed way to destroy the cam.....Makes me want to cry
I was concerned about a bad lifter throwing a pushrod more than being the cause of the vacuum....
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Holy hell Steve am I ever sorry I threw my 2 cents in. I didn't realize it was an on going issue. I tend to tackle cars that have been to 5 different shops before they get to me, but this sounds like a land mine. You mentioned several times already, step back and review what you've found. You gotta admit, he gets thing done. :D
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:) it's one of those deals where there are so many conflicting bits of info that it makes it hard to know where to dive in....
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Like a smorgasboard.
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yes I did, I know its not the right thing to do but I am just trying to find the problem and also eliminate others, when I look back at the money and time I have spent on this issue alone it really just makes me want to give up and just run it like it is. and when it finally gives up I have a new 502cbb sitting in my shed.
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Might be cheaper to just pull it out now and do a swap because 99.9 percent of the time, a wiped cam is in your future :D
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changed out lifters with some slightly used known good ones.
Oh shit. Go ahead and pull the engine.
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I did a mic test on the whole cam to check lift and all lobes were within .005 of the spec intake and exhaust.
It should be closer than .005" when measured with a mic.
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changed out lifters with some slightly used known good ones.
Oh shit. Go ahead and pull the engine.
400 miles on lifters that you could not tell that they were ever in an engine and cost me $0.00. I do have plans on getting a new cam and lifters but not untill I find out what my problem is.
I am just trying to get by right now and not spend anymore money this year, I have a wedding, graduation and tuition to pay for this year.
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Keith! those lifters were mated to another cam. Correct? So what happens now that they are put on top of another cam? It takes 20 minutes to break in a set of lifters. 400 miles is a lifetime!
So you are planning to put in another cam and lifters, but are you planning to rebuild the entire engine because the crank and bearings were ruined by all the cam metal being pumped thru them?
Don't make me cry! I am too old!
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Steve, what I would love to do is buy one already built, but that might make my wife cry. lol
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You better buy her something that cost more than the engine!
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11 pages...an epic thread... :icon_eyes:
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Wait until the next one... If all the lobes and lifters puke at the same rate, it's going to be ugly ugly.
It's bad enough when just one lobe and lifter fails.