IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Scoobum on September 21 2011, 07:05:42 PM
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Time for a front brake upgrade...need a little more stopping power. Gotta be plug-n-play...cuz I'm an idiot. Dual piston front calipers? Different master cylinder? All suggestions welcome.
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What brake system do you have now? PM? Vacuum?
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Vacuum-SS Braided Russel Lines-S-10 Rear Wheel Cylinders-All Long Pads-Aluminum Rear Drums
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I don't think you need to go to dual piston calipers, they aren't cheap. I would think a good set of slotted/drilled rotors and some great pads should work better. Maybe change to Hydroboost.
What's the primary use? Cruising? Autocross? Drag?
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Drag. I'm not worried of the price of dual piston calipers.
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Well, that's easy then. Have you looked at Baer upgrades?
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Nope...waiting for you guys to point me in the right direction. I run stock GN rims...and TTA rims...so they have to fit over the new calipers. SSBC another choice?
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I don't think you need to go to dual piston calipers, they aren't cheap. I would think a good set of slotted/drilled rotors and some great pads should work better. Maybe change to Hydroboost.
What's the primary use? Cruising? Autocross? Drag?
Dual piston is cheap if you look around and it's plug and play. 98-02 S-10 Blazer 4 door 2WD have an 11" rotor and dual piston caliper brakes that will fit inside stock wheels and can be found in a junkyard. Direct bolt on and all you'll need to do is have the car aligned aftewards. The only drawback is that you have hub bearing assemblies instead of normal wheel bearings.
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Baer 12" discs front and rear.
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I would use the EBC slotted and dimpled rotors and the yellowstuff pads
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I think the only issue with the Baer is clearance issues depending on what kind of wheel you use.
I like the stock appearance so I still have stock GN wheels up front and widened GN wheels out back...because of that I went with SSBC brakes up front, aluminum drums and S10 brakes* out back.
*I don't think Steve likes the S10 brake conversion :tongue ...it's gonna get us all killed.
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I think the issue is the S10 cylinders and large, soft rear brake shoes is street driving and panic stops.
That, and people not getting an adjustable proportioning valve.
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doesn't take a panic stop on a wet street...parti cularly one that has not gotten wet enuf to wash the oil off...just a light touch can cause the the rear tires to lock and once that happens...bad things come shortly thereafter
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doesn't take a panic stop on a wet street...parti cularly one that has not gotten wet enuf to wash the oil off...just a light touch can cause the the rear tires to lock and once that happens...bad things come shortly thereafter
That is what used to call a bootleggers turn. Not exactly bad, but if you have never done one of those at speed it could be VERY scary. :-0
AJ___
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How did this go from a front brake upgrade to a discussion on rear brakes? He wants to upgrade the front brakes first I thought. Get the fronts to stop better and then the car will stop better. If he wants to do the back later then he can.
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in a bootleggers' turn, you jerk the handbrake to lock the rear tires...so it may be scary, but, not unexpected...y ou also spin the steering wheel to facilitate the turn...
When the rears lock without intent in the middle of traffic, it is definitely scary and completely unexpected...i t gets more scary when you are on a multilaned road in the middle of traffic :)
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in a bootleggers' turn, you jerk the handbrake to lock the rear tires...so it may be scary, but, not unexpected...y ou also spin the steering wheel to facilitate the turn...
When the rears lock without intent in the middle of traffic, it is definitely scary and completely unexpected...i t gets more scary when you are on a multilaned road in the middle of traffic :)
People are awake. :powersix:
AJ___
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I think the only issue with the Baer is clearance issues depending on what kind of wheel you use.
I like the stock appearance so I still have stock GN wheels up front and widened GN wheels out back...because of that I went with SSBC brakes up front, aluminum drums and S10 brakes* out back.
*I don't think Steve likes the S10 brake conversion :tongue ...it's gonna get us all killed.
SSBC have no clearance issues with the stock GN rims...perfect .
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I did a front brake conversion on my GN a few months ago, I swapped in a 1998-05 S-10 blazer 2WD knuckle assembly and hubs, with all new zinc slotted rotors and stainless steel brake lines. It made a noticeable difference in stopping power! I got my setup from a junkyard. It's a dual piston caliper setup with 11" rotors as was said above. It also cleared my 15" Kirban GNX look a like rims no problem.
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give us some pics and a write up on that....15" or 16" Kirban gnx knock offs? Mine are old, but 16"s
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Steve, I got the idea from a write up on the other board http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspension-tires-wheels/171079-11-bolt-brakes.html (http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspension-tires-wheels/171079-11-bolt-brakes.html)
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That's where I got the idea as well. I also converted mine to rear disc so I'll have more than enough stopping power when I need it.
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You did the rear disc conversion to, Nice!!
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You did the rear disc conversion to, Nice!!
Sure did. I had a customer stiff me on an axle rebuild and kept the axles for his camaro. Wasn't sure what I was gonna do with it until I found out that the brakes could be adapted to the G body rear. It also has the torson diff in it so it's my back up for the weak 7.5" if I blow the posi out. :D
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When I did my 11" dual piston conversion, I didn't need to use the Edelman brake line adapter he's talking about, My brake lines bolted right in no problem , and I used the S10 Blazer stainless brake lines.
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What year did you get them for?
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What year did you get them for?
1998-2005 fit right on, no problems! That is Chevy S10 Blazer 2WD 1998-05!
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Thanks.
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I got the stainless brake hoses from ebay, a place called Silverstone Modification N Racing
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Get the complete spindles off a last gen S-10 Blazer 4 door 2WD.
Only 98 -05 s10 blazers come with this brake setup
They have an 11" disc and dual piston calipers that will fit in a 15" wheel.
It is a direct bolt on.
Newer S-Series is a brake upgrade for the G-body but then 14" stop fitting !
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Our cars currently have the hub assembly right? And can someone explain to me what that big bulge is in the center of the hub that goes through the center of our wheels? thanks
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It's a dust cover with grease under it.
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Get the complete spindles off a last gen S-10 Blazer 4 door 2WD.
Only 98 -05 s10 blazers come with this brake setup
They have an 11" disc and dual piston calipers that will fit in a 15" wheel.
It is a direct bolt on.
Newer S-Series is a brake upgrade for the G-body but then 14" stop fitting !
Not exactly correct. The stock rotor is listed as a 10.5" but is really a 10.4". The S-10 is a 10.7" rotor so you do get slightly bigger brakes, but the same thickness. I'm working on a bolt on bracket for the S-10 knuckle which will let you use a 12" 4th gen F body rotor but it will be a single piston caliper. It may be the stock caliper or a B body caliper, which is much larger, but it will give you a 1.25" thick rotor that's 12" in diameter so having issues with brake fade will be greatly reduced. :cheers:
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Has anybody seen if the twin piston S10 caliper will bolt up to a stock GN spindle and rotor?
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It's a dust cover with grease under it.
Under that is a castle nut, washer, some roller bearings and a seal at the back to hold the grease in on that side. The s10 hub is not.a serviceable unit. When it goes you replace the whole assembly, instead of replacing the bearings or replacing them, the races and seals. Just another of the "advancements" made for ease of assembly.
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So that cover on our hub is to remain on there? Got it. Only asked because I don't recall seeing them used with aftermarket wheels. Thanks gents
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Has anybody seen if the twin piston S10 caliper will bolt up to a stock GN spindle and rotor?
That's a no go Earl. The caliper requires a mounting bracket that has no place to bolt up.
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Our cars currently have the hub assembly right? And can someone explain to me what that big bulge is in the center of the hub that goes through the center of our wheels? thanks
The OE stuff
the hub and rotor are one piece.
On my LS1 upgrade my OE rotor becomes a hub because the friction part of it is cut off of it.
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Teaser pic for a 12" rotor on a blazer knuckle. :cheers:
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I need to take a whole class on brakes...and everything else I suppose, because the brakes and suspension are two things on the car that I know nothing about...Wheels either. Lol
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Teaser pic for a 12" rotor on a blazer knuckle. :cheers:
Making some progress....
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Teaser pic for a 12" rotor on a blazer knuckle. :cheers:
I love this place :) You too Chuck! (platonic sheep free comment)
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Teaser pic for a 12" rotor on a blazer knuckle. :cheers:
looking good.
I went with the converted hubs because i did NOT want sealed bearings.
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looking good.
I went with the converted hubs because i did NOT want sealed bearings.
That shouldn't be an issue when I'm done. The center hole is now plugged with a 1 & 3/16" freeze plug and where the ABS sensor goes will have a grease zerk installed so I can add fresh grease every so often. :player: Good2win22 will be the gunea pig on the new set up since we'll be changing his front and rear suspension around a bit. :cheers:
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So, with the sealed hub and the grease zerk, where does the grease end up?does it just pile up in there? Does it "blow out" the sealedness of the unit? I guess I am unclear. When I grease things like front suspension I at least like to see the ball joint rubber boot expand and the center link grease squirt out from between the pieces so I know it is full.
I guess I'm just not "feelin" the sealed hub, like turbo68.
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So, with the sealed hub and the grease zerk, where does the grease end up?does it just pile up in there? Does it "blow out" the sealedness of the unit? I guess I am unclear. When I grease things like front suspension I at least like to see the ball joint rubber boot expand and the center link grease squirt out from between the pieces so I know it is full.
I guess I'm just not "feelin" the sealed hub, like turbo68.
Our cars are supposed to have the front bearings repacked every 30K miles but the hubs aren't supposed to be repacked ever. That's the biggest issue with them. The inner seal fails and the grease gets contaminated so they go bad. By adding a way to introduce new grease you can "change" the grease and contaminates so the bearing will live longer. The hubs use the same ball bearings as the older (think 55 chevy here) cars. If you're not willing to re-pack the bearings on the car as it is then the bearings will fail, so adding grease and pushing the old grease into the knuckle's pocket will allow it to live longer. :cheers:
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So, with the sealed hub and the grease zerk, where does the grease end up?does it just pile up in there? Does it "blow out" the sealedness of the unit? I guess I am unclear. When I grease things like front suspension I at least like to see the ball joint rubber boot expand and the center link grease squirt out from between the pieces so I know it is full.
I guess I'm just not "feelin" the sealed hub, like turbo68.
Rich, seems sorta like a trailer hub, you need to guess/gauge the grease input. I see Charlie's point too. Seems he is saying you need to let the rotor hub cavity empty so excessive grease goes there. I would also be concerned how the different grease would mix from other applications. I've encountered situations over the years where bearing grease didn't mix well and caused noise and leaks.
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On a side note. Which is the best bearing grease? Sorry for the hijack.
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http://www.timken.com/en-US/products/lubrication/products/automotive/Pages/WheelBearing.aspx (http://www.timken.com/en-US/products/lubrication/products/automotive/Pages/WheelBearing.aspx)
http://mobile.walmart.com/#ip/Mystik-JT-6-Hi-Temp-No.2-Grease/17128827 (http://mobile.walmart.com/#ip/Mystik-JT-6-Hi-Temp-No.2-Grease/17128827)
I like these.
So, those sealed hubs are like trailer axles. My dexter axles are drilled where you pull off the rubber cap and inject grease in and it comes back out the outer edges. I just squirt it in and scoop out the old when I use the trailer. My flat trailer has hubs and caps like the Buick fronts.
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Rich, seems sorta like a trailer hub, you need to guess/gauge the grease input. I see Charlie's point too. Seems he is saying you need to let the rotor hub cavity empty so excessive grease goes there. I would also be concerned how the different grease would mix from other applications. I've encountered situations over the years where bearing grease didn't mix well and caused noise and leaks.
The grease used in most cases is that green thin stuff and I know you can get it in tube form. The inner seal is what goes out in most cases so you could take the seal out of the rear and pack the knuckle or feed it in where the ABS sensor is mounted. Either way it should allow for more bearing life. The hubs seem to go out between 60 and 80K so it most people won't need to replace the hubs that often.
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A small update on the 12" rotors on the blazer knuckle. I'm working on 2 more sets of brackets and the bigger B body caliper will fit and work. :rock: Just waiting on a bracket so I can copy the spacing and holes for the caliper.
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Cool.
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Charlie, are you sure the bearing can get wet by introducing lube into the ABS pickup hole? I just bought a 99 4X4 Blazer with twin piston calipers and the RF hub is roaring. I put some gear dope in that hole with no change.
There's this cute parts chick at Orilly's with big cans that I'm going to boink. I got her to pull a hub off the shelf and it looks like a conventional double sealed ZZ type ball bearing. If that's the case there's a metal seal between the ABS reluctor wheel and the inside of the bearing.
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If the bearing's already roaring then it's shot Earl. The key here is forcing the old grease out just like packing a bearing. The back of the bearings where the seal is is usually where the grease comes out when they fail, not the front. The 4wd units seem to last longer because of the shaft going through them, but that's speculation on my part. You need to plan on a mileage to add grease and force the old used grease out so this doesn't happen.
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Oh I know it's shot. But if the gear dope would have got the balls wet, it should have changed noise, or shut up. I'm wondering if the zerk in the ABS hole is just lubing the hell out of the the trigger wheel and having no effect on the inside of the bearing. If the races weren't hardened, I'd stick it in the horizontal bandsaw and do an exploratory
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Then again, I know what a front wheel bearing feels and sounds like when they go bad. The average Joe-ette most likely couldn't tell a thing.
I think the 4X4's last longer because they have a larger ID on the inner race. If the OD is the same that means the actual bearings are most likely smaller therefore the load gets divided more. No idea why GM didn't just put 4X4 setups on all the Blazers and just omit the CV shafts on the 2WDs. ESP since the 4X4 hubs are cheaper to replace.
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would have got the balls wet...
I think the 4X4's last longer because they have a larger ID on the inner race. If the OD is the same that means the actual bearings are most likely smaller therefore the load gets divided more. No idea why GM didn't just put 4X4 setups on all the Blazers and just omit the CV shafts on the 2WDs. ESP since the 4X4 hubs are cheaper to replace.
Heh, you said wet balls.
And that is what they did on the Trailblazer's GMT360 platform. I think CTSeses do similar with their AWD vs. 2WD front hubs?
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would have got the balls wet...
I think the 4X4's last longer because they have a larger ID on the inner race. If the OD is the same that means the actual bearings are most likely smaller therefore the load gets divided more. No idea why GM didn't just put 4X4 setups on all the Blazers and just omit the CV shafts on the 2WDs. ESP since the 4X4 hubs are cheaper to replace.
Heh, you said wet balls.
And that is what they did on the Trailblazer's GMT360 platform. I think CTSeses do similar with their AWD vs. 2WD front hubs?
Schwetty balls?
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Well I finished the brackets to be able to go with the 12" F body rotor today. Here's a couple of teaser pics for those that might be interested. Good2win22 (Jason) will be letting me do the alignment on his car and hopefully this weekend or next we'll be installing the the bigger brakes along with the everything needed for testing this out. :rock: The first pic is the bracket mounted on the knuckle and the second is everything mounted with the stock G body brakes and knuckle beside it. :O The caliper also has a 2 & 15/16" piston so this should stop the car really well considering that you're getting a 1.3" larger rotor that's 1/4" thicker. :cheers: Well it seems that I can only add 1 pic so here's the comparison. Sorry guys. :(
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So now that I see the pictures and reviewed this thread, if all goes well: don't have to service bearings anymore, more braking surface, fits all GN wheels. Why even bother greasing a sealed unit, it ain't gonna get where it's supposed to go anyway. Rich's ??? early on???
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So now that I see the pictures and reviewed this thread, if all goes well: don't have to service bearings anymore, more braking surface, fits all GN wheels. Why even bother greasing a sealed unit, it ain't gonna get where it's supposed to go anyway. Rich's ??? early on???
Well hello stranger. :D The biggest issue with the hubs is the grease going south so having the ability to flush it out will keep them alive longer. I've also found new hubs on evilbay for under $20 each shipped, so it's really cheap to replace them. :rock: These will give you better braking and if you want to go to a 16" wheel you now have the option for a really cheap upgrade. If you want to try this set up I think Jason has 1 more set he'd sell to his drag racing buddy. :rofl: Jason's bringing his car to the shop Thursday so I can align it, and if things work out, we'll be doing the testing on the F body rotor set up. The new set up should through you through the windsheild under hard braking. :cheers:
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Well everything has been installed on Jason's car, and there was more than a few issues With the instal. The first issue was that the caliper is so large that you need a 1/8" spacer between the wheel and the rotor, or to grind the outside of the caliper to clear the wheel. Since this wasn't expected I made sure to bring my grinder and cleaned up the outside of the caliper off to clear the wheel. In Jason's case, his wheels had sticky weights on the inside, and they hit the caliper, so a little more grinding of the caliper was needed. This won't decrease the strength of the caliper since it's over built and was intended for a full size truck.
The brackets fit perfectly on the knuckles and bolted right up. The rotor fit perfectly and the only issue was 2 of the bolts I bought for the bracket to knuckle were to long, so they got cut down to clear the rotor. Calipers fit on with the new pads and then found 1 other issue. The truck calipers have a different position for the hose, so I had to cut a slot for the hose opposite side of where the slot is for the hose. Once installed we bled things out and checked for leaks. Te car had G body stainless/teflon hoses and everything looked good so we took it for a ride.
Pedal felt mushy according to Jason so we took it back to bleed it and check everything over again. When it was back on concrete Jason spotted a drip around the right front, so we thought the caliper or the copper washers were leaking. Got it up and cleaned everything, and it wasn't what we thought it was. Found some fluid on the hose coming from the connection where the steel line and hose attach. Tightened it up and I held the pedal down while Jason bled it. He yelled for me to stop because it wasn't the fitting, it was a pin hole in the hose. :icon_evil: Off to oriellys to get 2 new hoses and load the turbobuicks garage account for another member.
The new hoses were installed and the system bled out with a much harder pedal this time. :cheers: Took her out or a slow drive and went a little better this time. Pedal is still mushy but the brakes hit much harder than the stock ones ever thought of doing. Still needs some refinement so the pedal is harder but everything works. The one thing I'm thinking about is whether it's the piston size on the calipers is so large that the master cylinder can't provide enough pressure, of if it still needs some bleeding because there's air in the system. Here's a few pics to show the calipers and complete set ups, as well as some other pics to give you some ideas of what it looks like mounted up.
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A few more.
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Very nice.
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Nice!! :powersix: :powersix: :powersix: :powersix: