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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: daveismissing on July 24 2011, 01:46:45 PM

Title: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on July 24 2011, 01:46:45 PM
PM has started to cycle ~15 seconds.
Doing this even without brakes applied.

It will pump up from depleted ~12 seconds so that seems OK.

I'm thinking internal leaking in Master cylinder?

Maybe check valve in pump/motor leaks?
Where is that thing anyways?

Suggestions to narrow it down further?
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Pyro6 on July 24 2011, 03:29:15 PM
I'm thinking that's on the power assist side. If you're not on the brakes, wouldn't think the master cyl. bypassing. Accumualator maybe?
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on July 24 2011, 04:06:50 PM
References:
1)

http://www.t6p.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3020.html

2)

(http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/images/diagchart.gif)
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on July 24 2011, 05:25:12 PM
Interesting:
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/91871-power-master-check-valve.html

A picture of a spare PM. Where is the checkvalve,
is it under visible mating surface- if so how would you get it out?
or am I missing some bits?

(http://www.dtekk.com/automotive/brakes/checkvalve998.jpg)
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Pyro6 on July 25 2011, 05:22:16 PM
Is it still mounted on the steel line?
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Turbodave on July 27 2011, 01:11:38 PM
Interesting:
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/91871-power-master-check-valve.html (http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/91871-power-master-check-valve.html)

A picture of a spare PM. Where is the checkvalve,
is it under visible mating surface- if so how would you get it out?
or am I missing some bits?

(http://www.dtekk.com/automotive/brakes/checkvalve998.jpg)

That part you're showing needs to be pulled out. The check valve and spring are behind it.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Turbodave on July 27 2011, 01:13:54 PM
Something like an easy out down in the center and trying to pull/twist it out.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Turbodave on July 27 2011, 01:17:55 PM
Part numbers 36/37/38
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on July 27 2011, 07:07:53 PM
Thanks for the link

Something like an easy out down in the center and trying to pull/twist it out.

Won't that damage the poppet below?
Interesting that guys say their flew out and apart, not this one.
I made a "spring hook" from a paper clip- it just unbent without budging.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Turbodave on July 28 2011, 06:44:18 AM
I personally haven't pulled one out, but I've seen it done many times at Richard Clark's place.  NONE just flew out!!  They all had to be pulled.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Turbodave on July 28 2011, 10:37:48 AM
I just went down and pulled one out of a spare mc that I have.
 
It's not easy but can be done.  What makes it so difficult is that it's held in place with an O ring.
The tools I used:  I have a set of Craftsman torx drivers, the ones that have screwdriver type handles.  The torx end of a T10 will fit down inside that hole in the center, and as the trox fins go up the shaft they spread out wider.  This makes it easy to stick it down in there and while pushing down I was able to turn that part of the check valve assembly to sorta loosen it up.
Then used a sort of pick device with a bent end to go down inside and pull it up out. Broke the tip off the pick but what was left was stronger, and was able to pull the valve up out.
 
Once thats up out of the way the small flat disc down inside can be pulled up out with a magnetic probe and will bring the spring with it.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: SuperSix on July 28 2011, 12:00:13 PM
Cool Dave - you are the man..  :icon_super:
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on August 10 2011, 12:21:57 AM
Not much time to get to this-
I had one of Kirban's new humongous accumulators on order.
Installed and of course being a larger "spring" it stretched out the cycles to more like minute.
Pushed it out of the zone where I figured the motor was going to burn up at least.

Was intrigued by the external checkvalve idea so pulled out my Mcmaster Carr and found
a 1000PSI chemical resistant valve and made up some adapters to insert between
the pump and MC. Certainly behaved differently but the cycles ultimately continued,
I figure the Master Cylinder must be leaking down internally.
Sigh....
 

Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Pyro6 on August 10 2011, 12:25:56 AM
You know, even though I think my MC is toast, my PM doesn't cycle.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on August 10 2011, 12:29:52 AM
Yah,... I suppose it's the least dramatic form of failure at least   :O
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: Turbodave on August 10 2011, 06:45:17 AM
There is one other possibility.  Not as likely, but still a contender, and that's the pressure switch going bad.  The one on my 87 went bad a few months ago and it acted quite similar to yours.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on August 10 2011, 08:29:47 AM
I guess I have to swap and try another one, I just struggle with grok-ing  a switch failure mode
that causes THAT phenomena. Self heating? (a stretch ) Dunno.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: ULYCYC on August 10 2011, 09:10:12 AM
As TurboDave said check the pressure switch. Seen many cause short cycle..
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on August 22 2011, 10:26:35 PM
I had a painful email discussion with Rockauto last week.
Even though they will happily bill me in Canadian Dollars they will not allow me to send a PM
to one of the two Canadian Cardone depots (one a block from work) for a R&R - but I would have to send it to Philly for rebuilding.  :x
 
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on August 22 2011, 10:47:54 PM
But Yes- I'll try a switch first.
Do you think anyone had a 1 1/2 socket in stock, nah.
After my Crescent wrench slipped and f'd my spare reservoir I realized:
A water heater element wrench is 1 1/2. and cheap.
And the guy with the switches was too busy with his Turbo garden party planning
to ship it.
 

Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on September 25 2011, 11:25:10 PM
The switch made no difference, the cycle rate stays the same.
I did score a PM rebuild kit, I don't know anywhere local I'd entrust with this valuable commodity.
Title: Re: Powermaster short cycling
Post by: daveismissing on October 19 2011, 08:31:33 AM
The prattling purveyor of Powermasters from Pennsylvania has pronounced a paucity presently.
pensive
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