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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: daveismissing on April 10 2011, 10:51:44 AM

Title: Wideband integration
Post by: daveismissing on April 10 2011, 10:51:44 AM
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/computer-chips-101/122516-wideband-controlled-stock-type-chip-now-running-2.html

I did not realize that Wideband > ECM control loop has been out there for so long.
Should have all the kinks ironed out by now?

TOPSPEED - are you still running that original chip?


http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/computer-chips-101/122516-wideband-controlled-stock-type-chip-now-running-2.html#post1121317

was something I had wanted specifics on.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 10 2011, 11:24:29 AM
I have used it for several years.  Right now, I have gone back to open loop because I have had a couple of wb's fail and I got nervous about the potential disaster quotient.

I tune to where I like it in closed loop than try to equal that in open loop.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: daveismissing on April 10 2011, 12:42:53 PM
What is the failure mode of a wideband?
Maybe there is some symptom we can trigger on?
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 10 2011, 01:03:01 PM
It varies... :)

Some times, the analog side of the circuit simply dies..not gradually, but instantly.  Other times they just start going out of calibration.

Some brands are worse than others from what I have seen.  As for as the sensor itself goes, it is probably best to mount them as far from the turbo as possible.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: daveismissing on April 10 2011, 01:10:08 PM
That sux, hmmm  take 3 systems and average.
If one is way different discard its data and "limp" home.
Not looking very economical.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 10 2011, 02:15:46 PM
nah, once you get her dialed in...you can do it open loop, or closed loop as you desire....
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Top Speed on April 12 2011, 07:39:00 PM
Sorry,  I must have missed this thread.  Yes I still have the chip with wide band fueling correction.  It worked well.  I never had a wide band failure.  It was a one off chip that did not make it to mass production.  It can correct fueling within +- 15-20%.  I saw more benefit from it when driving throughout the year when the temperature changed.  It was able to keep the same air/fuel ratio consistently regardless of hot or cold temps.  Not really necessary but it was fun to play with.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 12 2011, 08:07:14 PM
that is a benefit...of course, from a performance stance, one may not want the same a/f all year, but that may take larger than normal temp variations to make major swings in air density?  I am not sure on that

I think the Innovates are particularly dicey.  I see Eric suggests AEM or Plx most of the time.

Also, the more expensive versions that use the NGK sensors may be more reliable from a sensor pov.

On the other hand, Honda, etc., used the Bosch sensors in regular cars so it may be the torture we put them thru that is the problem on the sensor end.
Title: Re: Wideband integration
Post by: Pyro6 on April 13 2011, 12:35:15 AM
What seems to be the advantage to the NGK sensor is the wide variety of fuels they tolerate.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: daveismissing on April 13 2011, 08:52:12 AM
Quote from: "Top Speed @ Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:39 pm"
Sorry,
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 13 2011, 09:41:12 AM
If you are talking about Steve Y, he gave the code to Eric from whence the SD chip evolved.
Title: Re: Wideband integration
Post by: nocooler on April 13 2011, 04:48:28 PM
Steve you need a NGK AFX with the NTK sensor - they are awesome. Throw that innovative in the trash where it belongs :)

http://www.hinsonsupercars.com/p-946-ngk-powerdex-afx-wideband-kit.aspx

They just work - the innovative stuff is way to flaky imo.
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 13 2011, 07:05:02 PM
they cost more than old retired guys can afford...and I figured out I got basically the same way just tuning like we always did in open loop so I am not so enamored anymore
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: daveismissing on April 13 2011, 11:47:44 PM
Anyone else disappointed in how expensive the
once_upon_a_ti me_open_source megasquirt stuff has become?
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 14 2011, 12:04:01 AM
no...in the end, it will not outperform the factory ecm which is extremely sophisticated

great for the guy that likes to play and has an oddball car
Title: Re: Wideband integration
Post by: Turbodave on April 14 2011, 07:20:35 AM
Steve, you're correct.  It's virtually iimpossible to out perform the stock ECM when in comes to it's ability to maintain stoiceometric air fuel ratio, but it's not so good at full power fuel control.
I've found the best of both worlds by keeping the stock ECM in full time closed loop. (In case no one has watched it happen on powerlogger, the stock ECM drops out of closed loop at just about 0 minifold pressure)  Therefore the idle and cruise is controlled by the stock O2 which is perfect for stoic. air/fuel control.
But when going to wot my wideband O2 takes over and maintains the air fuel ratio that I have commanded it to do, via my Translator Pro.  It's a great sinergistic(sic) relationship between the two.
Title: Re: Wideband integration
Post by: Scoobum on April 14 2011, 07:52:42 AM
Sounds good. Now what about guys like me who don't understand Translator Pro?
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: daveismissing on April 14 2011, 08:30:22 AM
The factory ECM is good enough for me.
I can see that lack of a faster internal processor likely restricts how one manipulates /hacks the code.
Not having a faster native data stream output is also a drawback. The next gen of pre ODB2 ECMs seem better in both regards.

You don't think the aftermaket has caught up?
drive-ability and  automated adaption limited?
Title: Wideband integration
Post by: Steve Wood on April 14 2011, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: "daveismissing @ Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:30 am"
The factory ECM is good enough for me.
I can see that lack of a faster internal processor likely restricts how one manipulates /hacks the code.
Not having a faster native data stream output is also a drawback. The next gen of pre ODB2 ECMs seem better in both regards.

You don't think the aftermaket has caught up?
drive-ability and
Title: Re: Wideband integration
Post by: Turbodave on April 14 2011, 02:12:25 PM
Quote from: "Scoob @ Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:52 am"
Sounds good. Now what about guys like me who don't understand Translator Pro?


They can ask Bob Bailey  :prayer:  or myself, or any one of a number of other users..
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