IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: bryes on February 29 2012, 10:36:58 PM
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Hello everyone,
A couple weeks ago I bought an '87 GN project (it turned out to be more of one then I was hoping for!), and now I a few questions. Any replies or reading suggestions would be much appreciated. I have begun reading Steve Wood's excellent tech section, but it looks like it will take a few reads through before it really sinks in. :hmm In the meantime I would like to ask a few questions about my particular situation if someone wouldn't mind answering some newbie questions.
The GN that I bought had been setting for the last decade. To get the car running again, the previous owner said that he changed plugs and wires, and I think the fuel pump. However, whoever did the work hooked up the plug wires in the wrong order. Thinking the problem was a "dirty" injector he proceeded to "clean out the injectors" , by driving the car. During this "cleaning", the car started smoking what I am judging to be blue oil smoke.
When I started working on the motor I discovered that the middle PS cylinder had 0 compression. I also noticed that the spark plug electrode was burnt maybe halfway off. Since then, I have started to remove the head to repair what I am hoping is a burnt Ex. valve. Additionally, I think the turbo might have a blown seal. I noticed that it was weeping oil right above the oil return line and there is oil residue in the intake Manifold (Before pcv inlet, so I think it could only be from the turbo).
When I get it fixed I intend to use the car just to cruise with. I am open to some performance upgrades that wont hurt driveability / reliability if anyone has suggestions.
My questions are as follows:
1: Any ideas, suggestions, similar experiences, etc..??
2. Now that I will soon have the heads off, what other components should I look into replacing and suggestions on where and what to buy?
As it stands right now I will also be replacing the timing chain and water pump.
Any additional pointers are greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Bryes
'87 GN, 51k miles (not verified)
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would not be surprised to find a blown head gasket after reading your plug description... but, that will usually leave some compression.
Check to see if all the valves are closed properly.
Check each lifter base to make sure one is not scrubbed indicating that it lost a cam lobe as well.
I prefer the Victor Reinz hgs over the Feldpros we normally suggest. VR 3797 Be sure to buy new bolts, or use studs. Factory bolts cannot be reused.
Look in the up pipe to the throttlebody for oil from the turbo which is usually the case if the seal is gone. Smoke might be a result of a blown hg.
Before you go too far after getting it going again, be sure to check the fuel pressure to see if the pump is performing properly under boost.
It's no fun getting a car from someone that did not know what he was doing,but, if you are patient, you can get it right and learn a lot doing it. I know it seems like a lot to learn, but, it will come thru osmosis and experience. :)
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If you still have the stock vent tube that runs between the PS valve cover and the turbo inlet.... you found your oil.
That little jewel will coat the hell out of the intercooler, uppipe, throttle body and intake(ESP with a chitload of blowby).
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http://www.gnttype.org/maint/basics.html (http://www.gnttype.org/maint/basics.html) I followed this guide when I first got my GN. Check that out if you haven't already.
Get a Scanmaster I found my tps settings were really whacked out.
I don't have the experience to tell you about the bad plug and compression. However, maybe consider a port job and stronger springs for the heads if they are going to be off anyway.
I agree going ahead with a new timing chain and sprocket. I've heard people saying good things about the TAperformance chain.
http://www.taperformance.com/ (http://www.taperformance.com/)
http://www.nos4gn.com (http://www.nos4gn.com)
http://www.gbodyparts.com (http://www.gbodyparts.com)
http://hrpartsandstuff.com/ (http://hrpartsandstuff.com/)
http://www.cottonsperformance.com/ (http://www.cottonsperformance.com/)
I've bought from all but one of the vendors above and have never had a problem.
You can also keep an eye on the parts wanted/for sale section to pick up some good pieces for cheaper.
I think the basic starting upgrades are hotwire kit for the fuel pump, maybe a high volume fuel pump, ajustable fuel pressure regulator, fuel pressure gauge and a chip.
Oh yeah, http://www.turbotweak.com/ (http://www.turbotweak.com/)
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Great post. A scan tool is required. Minimum Scan Master, best - Powerlogger.
And what he said ^.
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Welcome aboard. :rock: Now that you're here where are you located? One of us may be near you and can help you out. :D
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Wow, thanks to everyone for their replies. This is some very helpful information. I'll be working on it more this weekend so we should know a lot more then. I've been taking pictures all along so I'll try and post some when I get a chance. Hopefully it'll be a chronicle for a successful repair, and maybe someone can keep me from doing something stupid. :021:
Thanks to Guess and everyone for the information on the vendors and needed upgrades. A timing chain, (ARP?) head studs and water pump are definitely in my future. I'll be sure to order a VR 3797 head gasket too. Right now I'm about 80% power-logger and 20% scanmaster, I'll have to research it more to decide.
As far as the fuel system goes, I'll definitely be buying a gauge and adjustable regulator. I think I'll take the advice and upgrade the injectors while I have the intake off. I have been reading that a 40 psi injector should be fine for a mild street car.
I'd like to ask why a valve spring upgrade is needed, are the stock springs too light? After all I'm not planning on running 10's any time soon!
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Check to see if all the valves are closed properly.
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Check each lifter base to make sure one is not scrubbed indicating that it lost a cam lobe as well.
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Look in the up pipe to the throttlebody for oil from the turbo which is usually the case if the seal is gone. Smoke might be a result of a blown hg.
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The valves look like they are properly closed to me (I have the VC off). I didn't t get the lifter out yet but I took a peek in there and the cam lobes looked normal from what I could see through the lifter valley holes. I'll be sure to check lifter bottoms though this weekend. Oh yeah, I should mention that I looked for head gasket damage in the lifter valley and couldn't see any. Hopefully it will be obvious once I get that last bolt out and take off the head.
I forgot to look at the up-pipe while I was out there, but I did look at the compressor side of the turbo. Both inlet and outlet and everything in between seemed completely oil free. The exhaust /turbine side was noticeably coated with oil though. Maybe the oil I saw in the intake was, as sugested by earlbrown, coming through the stock pcv??
Welcome aboard. :rock: Now that you're here where are you located? One of us may be near you and can help you out. :D
Thanks and I'm glad to be aboard! I'm in Savannah, GA .
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Scanmaster first...and then when you can add PL, the scanmaster will connect to it and update about three times faster with more information for display. The reason for the Scanmaster is that is connected all the time which gives you continual monitoring of timing retard so that you don't drive around with continued detonation if something is not right. Also, being able to watch the O2s continually will let you know if something suddenly goes lean or rich. It's not practical to drive around all the time with a laptop plugged in, and you cannot watch it while driving, texting, and recording, anyway. :)
Be sure to not waste your money on a rail mounted gauge...they are inaccurate when you install them and they get worse with time. Beyond this, you want to be able to see the fuel pressure under wide open throttle conditions and this will require a gauge that can reach the windshield. When you get PL, you can add a transducer to the rail that will allow you to log fuel pressure.
Altho Earl is right about the line to the turbo inlet, that would not be your problem now. I am hoping that it is something like a popped intake gasket, or head gasket that is cross firing rather than a holed piston, or such. I guess you will know when the heads come off. I would do both heads because if one side has been dinged, you can bet the other is not far behind.
The factory springs were fine for the stock cam as it is pretty much all in by 4800 rpm or so with regard to power. Part of that is due to the size of the turbo and part is due to the duration of the stock cam. The biggest problem is that they were not very good and were usually pretty much dead by 60,000 miles and the cars would often be reluctant to rev past 4500 rpm or so. The 110# chevy springs were the first popular replacement. I don't like them very much because I think they can cause an old cam to go bad faster. Many have used the comp 980s, or one of the many equivalents with a single spring and a damper. The factory splash shield cup is generally not used. These will allow the factory cam to rev up to 5400 or so at the top end of the run in third gear. This probably won't make much power but it does eliminate a shift into OD. With a larger turbo to push more air, it will allow for a power band in the range of 5000-5200 and they seem to last longer. The pressure will be closer to 85# depending upon the installed height.
Hopefully it will be apparent when you pull the head and not expensive.
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Power Logger would be great. I still need to get one myself. Stronger springs seem to be what most people recommend as part of the first round of upgrades. Not many miles but 25 years old now. :icon_lol: I suspect their a little weaker now. New springs will keep it revving higher. I'm having the crane double valve springs put in mine.
My upgrades were hotwire kit, scanmaster exhaust, intake, ls1 maf translator pro, high flow fuel pump, turbo tweak 93 octane chip with 42.5 injectors. Just with that the car was surprising strong at only 15 psi. However, I hear the fun doesn't really start until above 20 psi.
Mine is being rebuilt now with a little bit bigger cam, rough port heads, 3-angle valve job, forged pistons, TE-44 turbo, 3-inch downpipe and a 2800 stall 9.5 converter. I can't wait until it's done. After that, I'll probably just add a methanol kit and a better intercooler. Supposedly good for being in the 11's somewhere with good tires and tuned right. I think the 42.5 injectors I have will be fine.
Turbo Tweak sells chip and injector combos. I would call Turbo Tweak and tell them what you have planned for the car. He will recommend what injector size you should get. Some say skip the 42's and get 60's so you don't have to upgrade later, depending on what you have planned.
I'm no expert. I've had mine less than two years. However, there are people on here that pretty much know just about anything about these cars and can steer you in the right direction. The community has been a big help with me.
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^^^ Don means the LT1 springs, not double. The LT1's have a dampner in the springs and aren't double. :icon_smile:
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Hey Charlie, these are the springs that are going on my heads. Are they correct?
http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=46_21_51&products_id=876&osCsid=e6f0cda9fade3d841614c0e9e4c0730f (http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=46_21_51&products_id=876&osCsid=e6f0cda9fade3d841614c0e9e4c0730f)
I don't want to do something dumb. :D
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Hey Charlie, these are the springs that are going on my heads. Are they correct?
http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=46_21_51&products_id=876&osCsid=e6f0cda9fade3d841614c0e9e4c0730f (http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=46_21_51&products_id=876&osCsid=e6f0cda9fade3d841614c0e9e4c0730f)
I don't want to do something dumb. :D
Those are for a roller cam Don, not a flat tappet. You'll wipe the cam if you use them. Tell the machine shop you want a set of LT1 valve sprins with a seat pressure between 85 and 90 lbs. The springs have a coil on the outside and a flat looking coil on the inside which dampens the spring.
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those don't look roller springs to me?
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Consider the pic source, I wouldn't trust it to be right.
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it might shine some light if the specs were looked up?
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Comp Cams 980 from FullThrottle Speed:
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp+ic+105980-12+eq++Tp+ (http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp+ic+105980-12+eq++Tp+)
TA Performance:
http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1107 (http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1107)
Stock replacements:
http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1436 (http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1436)
There's many places to get better products and service at a lower cost.
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sigh...and on basis are you condemning the springs he currently has?
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Me? I just posted some links.
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Tough part is he doesn't put anything up to check/cross reference.
They are Crane Cams 99891-12
At least the specs are the same. No mention of roller..
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99891-12/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99891-12/)
Dual Valve Springs
1.212
0.900
0.674
No
93 lbs @ 1.550
266 @ .950
0.865
0.625
290 lbs/in.
Buick V-6 & Buick 350 V-8
99891-16
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This was the specs I was going off of Steve.
Number of Springs Per Valve: Dual
Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in): 1.212 in.
Coil Bind Height (in): 0.865 in.
Damper Spring Included: No
Spring Rate (lbs/in): 290 lbs./in.
Inside Diameter of Outer Spring (in): 0.900 in.
Inside Diameter of Inner Spring (in): 0.674 in.
Valve Spring Style: Standard
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They look fine to me...93# at 1.55". Buick specs are ~67# at 1.727"
They are 290 on the spring rate and the factory are about 304.
These are definitely not roller cam springs and, if anything, are a hair softer than factory springs. They should be fine.
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Nah, it's a flat tappet cam. I'll run by the engine shop to be certain which ones I had purchased. I'm going off memory of which ones I ordered.
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Yeah I'm an idiot. After a panic run to the engine shop, I have the Comp 980 springs. Thanks for correcting my mistake.
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LOL
I wonder if the Crane springs would be better with regard to longevity being they are dual springs and have less tension on them individually?
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I'm really suprised they haven't come out with a light weight beehive style spring for flat tappet. That would be the best option out there for a bunch of guys.
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There are some that don't believe that the beehive are as great long term as made out to be, but, I tend to agree with you, I would try them.
I am also surprised how "soft" these Crane dual springs are. I don't see why they went that route for such low pressures. I looked and thought at you that they were for a roller, but, I went to the Crane catalog and saw the specs. Then I got out my calculator and saw they would need some shims for our cars if the specs were right.
Hopefully, Guess's mechanic will check the 980s to see if they need a shim before he wraps up the install
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Thanks for the info everyone. Looks like I have more to consider than just whether to replace my valve springs or not!
Ok, I have an update on the oil situation. I stated before that there was no oil on either side of the turbo compressor, well as it turns out I was wrong. In the pictures below I indicated where I did see oil. I think I missed it before because it was dark and the oil had time to drain away. Also, I did find oil in the pipe to the throttle body (also pictured below).
I am hoping that this is a good indication that the seal in the turbo is bad, and could be the primary source of my oil control issues (and not broken rings or piston!!). Let me know what you think.
It is supposed to start raining here soon today so I received orders to get a few things done outside before working on the car. I'll hopefully still be able to get the head off later today and maybe post another update.
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keep your fingers crossed. If the seal suddenly let go, then it could be the problem...get the heads off the engine and have a look at that bad cylinder in particular.
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Well I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that I have an excuse to buy some more tools! The bad news is that, as you can see below, I have a melted piston.
It might be harder to tell, but the buildup on the side of the cylinder is the aluminum melted from the piston. It's also splattered on the valves and head as well. It's hard to say how badly the cylinder is scored with the aluminum buildup there though, I'm just not sure. Nothing that makes me think it would be impossible to hone out.
Looks like the exhaust valve is torched pretty good also. The other two cylinders look to be normal to me. I'll have to work on getting the other head off tomorrow, but I don't think they are bad. Like the other 2 cylinders here, their spark plugs looked normal.
What does everyone think about my options at this point and what they would do??
Thanks!
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Get the block checked - is it standard bore now? Cyl #2 looks a bit beat up too.
The heads should be fine - after they are decked, rebuilt/etc
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This is why my block went from .030 to .040.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Repair%20pics/Short%20block%200814/P1020230.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Repair%20pics/Short%20block%200814/P1020229.jpg)
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Ouch, that looks painful!
I'm assuming mine is standard bore, I don't think it's ever been apart before.
What makes you say my #2 looks bad?
It might be the way the picture was taken picture, because I think it looked about the same as #6 from what I remember. I could feel a small ridge at the top with some carbon buildup, but I think I could get the piston out without a ridge reamer.
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I may be wrong - looks like some minor pitting. You will need to cut it, how much, I don't know.
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Looks like it is engine rebuild time....I suspect the crank is hammered if the piston looks like that...How badly, only a machine shop can say.
Other option is to look for an used engine.
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Oh, I think that's just debris from the head gasket and dirt. It does look like pitting in the picture now that I look at it, but I think it will clean up!
You don't think there is any chance of honing it out with a new piston?
I thought I might give it a shot.
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Wouldn't a crank being torn up be obvious when the rod was removed?
I once had an engine that was run dry on oil, and it was obvious :)
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Oh, I think that's just debris from the head gasket and dirt. It does look like pitting in the picture now that I look at it, but I think it will clean up!
You don't think there is any chance of honing it out with a new piston?
I thought I might give it a shot.
What is that?
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Sorry that was just plain bad writing.
I should have said, hone out the cylinder and then install a new piston :icon_smile:
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Sorry that was just plain bad writing.
I should have said, hone out the cylinder and then install a new piston :icon_smile:
You mean just one? I wouldn't, that engine needs machine work - or you need to buy a running used motor.
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Well thanks for keeping me real then, I guess it really hasn't quite sunk in yet. I was really hoping to get out of this without pulling the motor!
Thanks for the advice everyone and if anyone thinks of other ideas, knows a good machinist in Savannah or has a decent motor, let me know.
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It may be obvious, or it may not be. If it is square, then it will be obvious. If it is a couple of thousands out of round, it will not be.
Looks like factory pistons to me and they are not available...an d being that they were cast with iron inserts about the pins, there are none in the same weight range
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Well thanks for keeping me real then, I guess it really hasn't quite sunk in yet. I was really hoping to get out of this without pulling the motor!
Thanks for the advice everyone and if anyone thinks of other ideas, knows a good machinist in Savannah or has a decent motor, let me know.
Savannah GA? I LOVE it there!
It won't be too bad - hard part will be finding a good machinist. Not a whole lot left to getting that motor out of there. :)
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talk to Earl, he may know someone within a reasonable distance
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Thanks everyone, I think the path forward is relatively clear now. Especially since I can't get a matching piston, the decision to rebuild the engine has really been made for me. I'll try to talk to earl about a machine shop near Savannah.
Tomorrow I'll shift my focus to getting the motor out. Does anyone have any pointers? Is it best to pull with or without the trans?
Savannah GA? I LOVE it there!
Savannah is a nice place to live! While I am from NE Ohio where I own a home, I can't seem to stay employed there. At least I have been fortunate enough to find work in Savannah and San Diego :D
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Thanks everyone, I think the path forward is relatively clear now. Especially since I can't get a matching piston, the decision to rebuild the engine has really been made for me. I'll try to talk to earl about a machine shop near Savannah.
Tomorrow I'll shift my focus to getting the motor out. Does anyone have any pointers? Is it best to pull with or without the trans?
Savannah GA? I LOVE it there!
Savannah is a nice place to live! While I am from NE Ohio where I own a home, I can't seem to stay employed there. At least I have been fortunate enough to find work in Savannah and San Diego :D
Some pull with the trans, I don't. I don't have that much experience anyway. :p
One pointer. If you are using an engine lift that has too short of a boom - jack it up, take off driver's side front wheel, put on jackstand, frame at normal ride height Go in from the side with the lift. Some take the time to take the front bumper off instead.
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My wife and I with "Forest" in Savannah..
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Savannah%20June%202011/MMForrest.jpg)
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RUN FOREST RUN!!
Is that outside the Savannah Theater?
I think my wife saw that same show with her brother while I on a trip in South Dakota last fall.
Savannah is a nice place to live. We're just here temporarily on a business trip right now, but under the right circumstances we'd consider moving here permanently.
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I think it is. The Forest (Forrest?) character is just that - an actor the tourist trolley/bus lines in Savannah hired. He runs around all day, taking pictures with visitors. He was spot on, perfect voice, movements, etc. Right after that pic, he yelled "I see Lt. Dan!", and bolted off. Pretty cool.
Forest Gump Back in Savannah? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXExLpRkU6c#)
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I go away for a couple of days...and all hell breaks loose. I have a full set of stock pistons mounted on 2 dot rods. I'll be more than happy to get the skirts checked for collapse...and if they're okay...which they appear to be...then I'll give ya' one for free...and ship it to ya'...for free. Don't worry about weight difference. Just get the rotating assembly balanced. As far as the cylinder is concerned...ju st get it sleeved...it's no big deal. I only went 11.5 at 121 last year on a sleeved block. Fuk I'm a nice guy.
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If you wouldn't mind doing that Scoobum, I'd really appreciate it. I'd sure like to keep the option of not doing a full rebuild for a number of reasons. The motor supposedly has low miles, and to me everything else looks OK that I have seen so far. It's not a rececar and want to get out of this situation as easy as possible right now :)
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No problem. I'll have the set of 'em checked Tuesday after work...and post up here about 5pm with the findings from the machine shop. I kept this set just in case I ever needed a piston for my standard/standard engine.
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My wife and I with "Forest" in Savannah..
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Savannah%20June%202011/MMForrest.jpg)
Hey I have that same case. hrmmm
AJ___
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If you wouldn't mind doing that Scoobum, I'd really appreciate it. I'd sure like to keep the option of not doing a full rebuild for a number of reasons. The motor supposedly has low miles, and to me everything else looks OK that I have seen so far. It's not a rececar and want to get out of this situation as easy as possible right now :)
You still have to pull the engine and have the bores checked, plus the crank checked, along with the rods checked to see if detonation has screwed them up on either end. Otherwise you may be throwing good money after bad.
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At the very least...here's what you're looking at:
1. Block degreased-main saddles checked for size-possible line hone-cam bearings installed
2. Cylinder bores checked for taper-ball honed
3. Damaged cylinder overbored-fitted for sleeve-bored and honed
4. Crank checked for straight-polished-possibly ground and polished
5. Big ends of rods checked for size
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With THAT much work, why not pay a little more, get all 6 bored and forged pistons? How much is left?
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Cuz he doesn't wanna spend the extra cash for new pistons and boring and honing all 6 cylinders. If the crank is okay...and the other cylinders aren't tapered...then it's the way I'd go. Did the exact same thing with the bullet that's sitting between the frame rails in my GN right now. Only thing different is I had the rotating assembly balanced.
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Ok, cool.
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I love it when Brad gets down and dirty...The bullet between the frame rails....:D
Better check the small end to...something hammered that engine
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Hey guys, thanks for replying.
OK I think this is the plan now. I'm working on having some mics and maybe even a dial bore gauge sent down here, which should take about a week I think. Then I'll be able to check the bores and crank journal myself, and see where we are. If they are too far out of spec, then it's a complete rebuild. But if not, then I'll try to use Scobum's piston if he hasn't thought better of it at that point :icon_smile:
So Scobum, I don't want to inconvenience you just to wind up not using your piston. If it would be better for you to hold off on sending it until we see what path we're taking, then that suits me just fine. Or, if you want to just send it to a complete stranger, I'll be sure to return it if I don't use it so it doesn't go to waste! I now know how precious these stock pistons are!
Thanks for bearing with me on this one everyone. Normally I might not be leaning so much in the direction of doing the minimum, I am in a very bad position right now because:
1. I am working a glorified temporary job down here and therefore only have very limited hand tools (I don't even have a jack), live in a rental and could be laid off at any time without warning. The quicker I can get it in one piece and running the better!
2. I haven't had the car long enough to decide what I really want to do with it. I think I want stock now, but am on the fence and find myself drooling at boost pressure. I might later on regret whatever I do now and would rather put off the decision until after I've had a chance to drive the car awhile and learn a lot more. Probably less money = less regrets right now if I choose the wrong route!
Thanks everyone!
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A stock shortblock will easily run well into the elevens..
Be sure you check the pin areas of all pistons for cracks. Hopefully, luck will be smiling on you :)
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No problem, I'll hold off. To really check the bores correctly...cy linders and saddles...it's best to use a telescopic dial indicator. I recommend taking it to a machine shop for this...they should do it for free knowing that they're gonna get your business. A competent machinist can go thorough these procedures in a short period of time. The rod big ends are best checked on the Sunnen rod machine...as you can do a 360 degree sweep of the bore.
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A stock shortblock will easily run well into the elevens..
Be sure you check the pin areas of all pistons for cracks. Hopefully, luck will be smiling on you :)
That's good to know about the stock block, they sound tough. I just have a phobia with cast cranks, I had one (Ford) crack in half a few years back.
No problem, I'll hold off. To really check the bores correctly...cy linders and saddles...it's best to use a telescopic dial indicator. I recommend taking it to a machine shop for this...they should do it for free knowing that they're gonna get your business. A competent machinist can go thorough these procedures in a short period of time. The rod big ends are best checked on the Sunnen rod machine...as you can do a 360 degree sweep of the bore.
Hoping for the best, but planning for the worst (I have already bought jack stands and a creeper)! I've been trying to find a machine shop. I heard good reviews about one in Augusta, GA that is only a 2.5 hour drive who has experience with turbo buicks.
You must have had different experiences with machine shops than I have because if I remember right, the one I went to wouldn't even touch anything until it had been tanked :icon_eyes:
Thanks again for all your help, I'll be sure to post updates.
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Well everyone, I won't have a chance to work on the car this weekend to get the motor out. My mics are coming through the mail though, so I'll try to measure the bores when they arrive.
I have been considering my options should the engine show additonal significant damage (crank, pistons, etc) or wear; as i suspect will be the case. In the interest of completing this project, I think I have decided against rebuilding this motor for the time being and instead I will buy a reman long block. I have read several posts regarding this route, and most seem to have had good luck with ATK. I called them and it's about $1,600 including delivery. They'll deliver to the house, and I can just swat out the accessories and intake and more or less be done with it.
Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, experience with going the rebuilt long block route.
Thanks
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If it's from a rebuilder there's no guarantee that you'll get the correct parts in it. If you decide to use what you've got then you have a better chance of getting the right ones.
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Very unlikely that the ATK rebuild will have the right crank, or turbo pistons in it....I understand that money is always important, but, throwing good money after bad is always painful
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I was looking through some other posts, and it seems they do use turbo pistons, hyper-eutectic silverlight 1735H specifically. Probably they aren't any more expensive for a big company buying in bulk anyway, so might as well use the right one.
As far as the crank goes, I realize I won't be assured to get a rolled fillet. But from a company rep said, they do try and match turbo cranks with the turbo motors when available. The only post I saw where somebody tried to verify the crank, it turned out to indeed be a turbo crank. Either way, from what I have read, i think I can live with a NA crank for my setup.
There was some mixed reviews about the motors for sure, but I think that is pretty universal for every type of build.
(http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/bryes/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png)
For what it's worth they do have a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty, if they stand behind it at all then maybe it forces them to not cut all corners.
Either way, I'm kind of in a bind here and really haven't had much luck finding a buick engine shop in this area.
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...
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I understand, and as long as you keep the boost low, those hypereutectics may hold up...until they see a little detonation and then you will discover why they are not used very often...
Oh, well, you gotta do what you do...you can always do it again if it does not work
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There's a stock short bolck on turbobuick.com in the for sale section right now reasonably priced. Might want to take a look over there. :D
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Thanks for the heads up. I just got back into town and it was already sold! I would have really considered it too.
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I understand, and as long as you keep the boost low, those hypereutectics may hold up...until they see a little detonation and then you will discover why they are not used very often...
I can look into getting forged pistons with the motor if that is the major weak point in the build (I believe you can customize some but sacrifice delivery). Would it make sense to have forged pistons with an NA crank?
I'll try to keep a closer eye on the boards, maybe something interesting will pop up in the next couple of weeks.
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Ok Guys, another update.
I begged one of my co-workers to borrow his cherry picker and engine stand, so I have completed removing the motor from the car. While I am still considering getting a rebuilt engine, I am also looking into having it machined locally here. I finally found a small machine shop, run by an individual, whose work all the locals rave about. I think he has been in business a long time but I need to research further... so we'll see.
Because of this I have been digging into the motor further and have posted some pictures below. The un-damaged bores are not bad, they measured nominal dimension at a small distance from TDC. When I removed the bad piston, the corresponding crank journal looks normal to me, will mic it tomorrow. The rod bearing has not worn excessively and is not scored badly by my estimation. To me it looks like I'll likely at least have a good crank, I'll have it NDT'd just in case though.
If do rebuild this one, I am going with a stock rebuild with forged pistons. I'll probably have to replace the oil pump because I noticed some shavings were sucked into the screen on this one. Any thoughts on what to get, oil pump wise??
Also, I notice that my flex plate had suffered a fastener bearing failure (see below) so that will have to be replaced. This seems like a strange thing to me. Anyone have this happen??
Thanks for reading,
Bryes.
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One the torque converter mounting tabs breaking hard to see that. Have seen where all the bolts except one have fallen out and the flex plate is rattling and then someone puts bolts back in the missing holes without looking at the one that was left in there.
Either way trash it.
AJ___
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Yeah, it's strange. I can say for sure that all of the bolts were torqued TIGHT with blue locktite, it was a real pain to break them loose. Also, All three torque converter bolt holes look similar. I'm just puzzled as to what exactly could do this.
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My best guess would be that the bolts were just a bit long and were over tightened. Then as time went by they worked back and forth to cause the damage.
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Yesterday I found some more damage in the engine. First (and pictured) the timing sprocket was missing a couple of teeth as seen below. Also when I took the cam out into the light, a single lobe corresponding to the valve neares the damaged portion of the damaged piston was scuffed. I could actually see a line where the lobe was worn and / or deformed. None of the other lobes had similar damage.
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So I am wondering, not that it matters at this point, what happened to this motor knowing that the plug wires were hooked up wrong, the piston was blown, the timing sprocket was stripped out and the flywheel bolts were ovaled.
Here are two hair brained theories that could possibly explain everything.
Scenario 1.
Wires were hooked up wrong causing pre-ignition and burning a hole in the piston. Torque converter bolt holes were ovaled from inertial loads of the torque converter mass under negative angular acceleration due to this pre ignition. Same thing happens at the front of the crank to the timing chain with inertial loads from cam, stripping the teeth off the weaker nylon sprocket.
Debris from the piston and burning from hot gasses galled the valve causing it to stick and Driving it into the cam, scuffing it and ripping out timing gears.
Scenario 2:
Timing chain sprocket breaks and engine runs like crap. To remedy this situation someone comes up with a brain child of hooking up spark plug wires in the wrong order to compensate (don't ask me how they figured out what worked). Pre-ignition results, and damage occurs from this point as described above.
Let me know if anyone else has any ideas / scenarios, thinks the above is complete bollocks or really doesn't care.
Bryes
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ok...who cares about how it happened...bas ed on the damage I have seen you need to have your block checked to see if it can be salvaged...cha nces are most of the rotating assembly is shot...I know money may be tight but what you want to to IMHO will create more problems in the future...if you do not have the $$$ wait and save and do it right...check all the Buick boards for a new used engine..who knows what damage is done to crank/cam/bearings plus 1/2 dozen other things...
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Although I am still mulling around my options on the long block, I have begun to work on the intake. At the suggestion of basically everyone, I am going to take this "opportunity" to upgrade my injectors (60 lb I think) and also install an adjustable fuel regulator. I was wondering what exactly to buy?
I will buy brand new parts, so it suggestions on what brand and where to buy from would be very helpful. The car will remain stock for now, so I was also wondering if I have to change chips with the new injectors, or will the one in there (I think it is stock but not 100% sure) do. I would like to avoid buying a chip if I have to, but it's not that big of a thing.
Also, I ruined on of the sensors (#1) in the picture below so I would like to know what it is first (1- 3 all look like they measure coolant temp) and where to buy a new one (hopefully still available.)
Thanks
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yes, the chip has to match the injectors....
Not sure why you have selected 60# injectors unless you want to run in the tens, one day.
Here is a link to TT's injector/chip combo page http://www.turbotweakstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=20 (http://www.turbotweakstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=20)
The 42#/chip is capable of lower elevens on race gas, or about 11.0 with alky injection.
The 60# combo will take you to mid tens on race gas or about 10.0 with a dual nozzle alky kit.
The times are extremely dependent upon you having the turbo, intercooler, cam, converter, and everything else required to make the horsepower.
You can see the price difference between the injector sizes. 95% of us will never need more than the 42's. Only you know your aspirations :)
Look under the fuel components for the regulator.
Most likely your car does not have a hot wire kit. If not, pick one of those up as well.
Here's a link off my site for sensor ID http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/sensorcomponent_locations.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/sensorcomponent_locations.htm)
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Holy crap that is one fried piston! It is worse than the one I keep on my desk at work...
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As always, thanks Steve for the helpful information and for explaining the 42# injectors, that saved me some money. I'll be ordering them today with a fuel regulator and hotwire kit. I need to think about that fuel gauge too, I will probably buy an autometer gauge from summit. I think they are still made in usa, which is worth the extra $$ to me.
I will be buying a scanmaster and possibly a fuel pump (supposedly my pump was replaced, but I have no idea what that really means considering the source) when I get closer to installing the motor. I definitely won't be working on the car much down here when the temperature is > 90; so I really expect this project to be completed in the fall. That is unless my employment is terminated and am forced to finish sooner.
At least once I get the intake back together, if I was forced I could have an ATK long block delivered here in a few days. Then I could have the car back together in a few days if I worked all day (Yes, I am slow). I want to avoid moving a project in pieces as things would get lost/ damaged, so I have to keep that in mind. Hopefully I can remain 1 step ahead of my employment situation!
The plan now is to just work on sub-assemblies when I have the time. I am going to have the heads done and ready to go, this will allow me to buy a short block if I find one. Other than that, I will just be cleaning everything up and getting it ready to install once the engine situation is worked out.
Holy crap that is one fried piston! It is worse than the one I keep on my desk at work...
Funny you say that, at work I have the snout from a broken crank that I replaced probably ten years ago!
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I just now ordered the 42 lb injector kit from TT, along with a hotwire kit, adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a scanmaster. I think I was able to successfully "launder" some money from the budget over the past several months, so hopefully this transaction will fly under the radar of the evil female "auditor" who I am sure by now is wondering what these car parts are doing in her living room and when, if ever, will I get this piece of crap back together!
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been there, done that, got the t shirts to prove it...altho they look more like scars
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Although I am still in a holding pattern on the short-block, I have decided to have the my stock heads rebuilt now. I am going to try to drop them off in Ohio this weekend, then pick them up mid-July. I have already bought the new valve springs (cc 980s), so now I need to worry about valves.
My plan is to have the oem valves, especially the exhaust, reconditioned if possible. After doing research on the issue it is my impression that the Inconel stock exhaust valves are superior to all but the most expensive aftermarket pieces. Unfortunately, it is likely that at least one of my exhaust valves is trash. After keeping an eye on the boards lately, I haven't seen any sets of NOS or good used oem exhaust valves, so I was hoping to find the next best alternative, unless that alternative is just to wait until a stock set shows up.
From what I have found so far it seems that ferrara "severe duty" stainless valves are the way to go. But that was an older post, so if someone wouldn't mind pointing me in the right direction for guidance, I'd appreciate it.
As always thanks in advance.
Bryes
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If you want stock replacement valves you can get the exhaust for an 89 TTA and they won't have the step i them like the stock ones. You'll need to have the valve guides cut down for seals but I prefer them over the stock ones. The "severe duty" ones are larger and sometimes shrould the valve if you're building a 3.8 block rather than a 4.1.
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New to this thread and won't hit you with more detailed advice to confuse you. Just to make the end cost a little clearer, after sitting 10 years it all has to be rebuilt or replaced. This goes for brake system, fuel system, all chassis rubber, turbo, wiring eaten by animals, all vacuum lines and anything powered like antenna, seats or windows. Looking at your engine pics these is no shortcut or cheap build. The block and crank, intake and bare heads may be all that can be reused. Stand back and look at all the costs. It may be cheaper to use it as a parts car and buy something running and looks good for $7-$10K. To do your car right expect to go over that.
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I agree with Ed 100% Sounds like your going to have your hands full & your wallet emptied!
If it helps I have a few sets of stock heads here so if you need some good used valves just pay for the postage. I could also deliver to Ohio for the BPG event 1st week of August. I'll even throw in a couple Ice Cold Canadian Beers!! :player:
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New to this thread and won't hit you with more detailed advice to confuse you. Just to make the end cost a little
clearer, after sitting 10 years it all has to be rebuilt or replaced. This goes for brake system, fuel system, all
chassis rubber, turbo, wiring eaten by animals, all vacuum lines and anything powered like antenna, seats or windows.
Looking at your engine pics these is no shortcut or cheap build. The block and crank, intake and bare heads may be all
that can be reused. Stand back and look at all the costs. It may be cheaper to use it as a parts car and buy something
running and looks good for $7-$10K. To do your car right expect to go over that.
ULYCYC, welcome to the thread. I do appreciate the heads up!
When I bought the car, I thought that I'd look into the motor "real quick", and if it wasn't something relatively simple, it would become a parts car or whatever. Now, if I stand back and look at it objectively, I realize that this project has crossed over that threshold, and if I continue down this path, I'll likely, like you mentioned, have more money in it than it's worth. But for some unexplained reason, I just feel myself putting on my work clothes... walking out to that shed... I think your post may well be one of those rare nuggets of wisdom that one day I'll look back at and think to myself,
"why the heck didn't I listen to him!" :wall:
One advantage this way is that I don't have to come up with a large chunk of cash all at once (much easier to keep a large # of smaller purchases on the DL!). Also, I have learned a lot of new things met some new people who offer to send me parts and buy me canadian beers. So maybe that makes up the difference!
For now at least I am going to work on putting together the heads, and we'll see what happens. I am not in too deep yet, so I can always change my mind depending on what happens.
If it helps I have a few sets of stock heads here so if you need some good used valves just pay for the postage. I could also deliver to Ohio for the BPG event 1st week of August. I'll even throw in a couple Ice Cold Canadian Beers!! :player:
Thanks a lot for the offer/s Super Six, you rock! :rock: Unfortunately, I won't be in Ohio the 1st of August , so I'll have to pass on the beer. :atbeer: I just might take you up on the valve/s though.
Now about those valves, I'd like a better idea of how many I'll need:
Any chance that this valve can be resurfaced?
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I'm NO Pro on valves but if you run a brass wheel over them to get rid of the carbon I'm sure you will have a much better idea.
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polish, grind and backcut them. They'll flow almost as good as aftermarket valves.
If you change over to aftermarket valves you need to cut the guides for seals.
L to R.. SS Ferrea, backcut stock, stock
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I tried to clean it as well as possible, attached are the pictures. I have read elsewhere that this should be a 2 piece inconel valve. Is there any way to tell for sure? To me it looks like a single piece, so where is the two pieces.
Also the entire valve attracts to a strong magnet, albeit significantly less than if it were carbon steel (a retrieval tool magnet won't pick it up).
Anyway let me know what you guys think now that it is cleaned.
Bryes
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Thanks for the pictures earlbrown. Your stock valve looks very similar to the other (not pictured) valves I have inspected that were in good cylinders. The pictured valve had AL shards from the burnt piston, they did seem to clean up pretty well with the wire brush. Maybe I can use my exhaust valves after all.
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Looks like I finally caught a break on this motor. I delivered the heads to Ohio to have them rebuilt at Mason's auto parts in Akron (have dealt with them for years). I heard from them this week that all of my valves inspected as good. As it appeared to me, the guides are all good and the vales and heads were straight and not cracked. So it looks like it will cost me just $120 to completed the heads.
Thanks to everyone again, especially Just a Six? (btw sorry for calling you Super Six in my previous post) for offering up those spare parts. I'll be going back to Ohio over the 4th, I plan on working on a few things then, so that my be my next update. Hopefully I can get a short block together at least for fall... we'll see.
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A little update on the car, although I haven't worked on it much down here.
I picked up the heads in Ohio from Mason's Auto over 4th, and was unpleasantly presented a $300 bill. Although they were supposed to call me about any overages past the $120 that we initially agreed on (I made this clear multiple times), I was never notified other than valve seals which were not that expensive. $90 of the 180 overage was to mill the heads, (no idea about how far they were out if any ). The remainder of the charge was for the seals and to install and adjust the new valve springs.
On inspection, there are metal filings in the heads, so I am still going to have to disassemble and clean them. Overall I am not happy with the work, if I had it to do over again I would do it differently.
While I was up there I was able to abrasive blast the valve covers and intake. I tried unsuccessfully using baking powder first, eventually moving up to glass beads and finally fine sand to get the job done. I also started to blast the exhaust up to the catalytic converter, but ran out of time. Blasting the exhaust as rusty as it is will be a lot easier once I have my "new" compressor going with a pressure feed blaster next time I am up there. With it blasted I plan on finishing up the intake in the next few weeks.
I have cleared out some space in our dining room, and I am going to be moving my engine assembly area inside where there is AC. Hopefully this will allow me to expedite this project :) Time will only tell how this decision goes over with the better half :chin: , but I think she will enjoy the extra time she'll be able to spend with me on the weekends :atbeer:
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How have you made sure you got ALL the fine sand out of the EGR passage in the intake? It might be worth it to have the hole welded shut.
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I am a little concerned about that egr port, I haven't done a really thorough cleaning yet. I think between brushes and my binks 140b it will all come out, but we'll see.
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Here's a little before and after of the intake. Coincidently or not, my wife decided to take a vacation as soon as she saw car parts in the dining room. So now as you can see from the pictures, I have also taken over the living room for my intake "assembly station". It's too hot outside down here in Georgia so desperate times call for desperate measures!
Next weekend I have to clean, inspect and paint the heads.
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Looks good! :) Tie wrap all the hoses so they cannot pop off under boost. Make sure the injector harness is not pinched, or laying against the egr valve, or the coil mounting bracket....not pretty when it shorts out :)
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Very nice.
Did you use some sort of etching cleaner?
Here's mine, copious cleaning, and painted with flat aluminum and low gloss black engine enamel.
No more EGR - see last pic. Most chips don't use it, and it's kind of an eyesore to me. I was already ordering a new flexplate from Full Throttle Speed, so I added an EGR block off plate.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Repair%20pics/P1020069.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Repair%20pics/P1020067.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Repair%20pics/P1020427.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Repair%20pics/P1020422.jpg)
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Heck they both look good! I had an engine in my dining room with an ex girlfriend once but when the wife came along that stopped pretty quick! Altho I still have a set of GN-1 heads & assorted new stuff in my office that have been here a few years now! :player:
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Thanks Steve, I'll be sure to check on that and add those wire-ties. Actually I looked at it a second ago and one of the hoses (orig '87 so I shouldn't be surprised) was pretty well cracked. Better change that as well.
Looks sharp Super Six :023: . I like that color combo. I'm halfway thinking about pin-striping the upper plenum and valve cover fins with red and yellow stripes :powersix: .
After copious amounts of cleaning I actually had to sand-blast intake and upper-plenum with fine "black beauty" to remove all of the corrosion and over-spray. Fortunately I the was able to get away with just cleaning the throttle body. Most of the hardware I wired brushed and then rattle canned. I spent way too much time on that EGR, so eyesore or not it is staying! :rock:
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Maybe when you have your new compressor fine tuned I'll send a set of valve covers for a cleanup & we can trade some parts for labour! :player:
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Thanks Steve, I'll be sure to check on that and add those wire-ties. Actually I looked at it a second ago and one of the hoses (orig '87 so I shouldn't be surprised) was pretty well cracked. Better change that as well.
Looks sharp Super Six :023: . I like that color combo. I'm halfway thinking about pin-striping the upper plenum and valve cover fins with red and yellow stripes :powersix: .
After copious amounts of cleaning I actually had to sand-blast intake and upper-plenum with fine "black beauty" to remove all of the corrosion and over-spray. Fortunately I the was able to get away with just cleaning the throttle body. Most of the hardware I wired brushed and then rattle canned. I spent way too much time on that EGR, so eyesore or not it is staying! :rock:
Looks great - good work!
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Maybe when you have your new compressor fine tuned I'll send a set of valve covers for a cleanup & we can trade some parts for labour! :player:
I'm on board with that. I hope to work on that beast over labor day so we'll see what happens.
Looks great - good work!
Thanks, if the rest of the engine looks 1/2 as good as yours I'll be happy.
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I have cleared out some space in our dining room, and I am going to be moving my engine assembly area inside where there is AC. Hopefully this will allow me to expedite this project :) Time will only tell how this decision goes over with the better half :chin: , but I think she will enjoy the extra time she'll be able to spend with me on the weekends :atbeer:
Maybe if we can make our engine parts useful for the ladies they won't mind them in the house :D
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Now that's hardcore! Very cool!
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Hello everyone again. I have finally made a decision on the path forward with the short block for now. As you may or may not know, after completing the intake and having the heads done, the short block is my final major step. And since I haven't found any good used blocks on the boards (within what I feel I can spend and such). So I have decided to move forward and reuse my existing motor. Unfortunately, having the engine bored out with new pistons is simply out of the question for me at this time. I am just going to have to be satisfied with what I can do myself for now.
That being said, I have done some more research on that bad cylinder and I believe it is possible to repair it. In fact, I have spoken with someone who had similar melt-down in a turbo motor and successfully repaired the bore himself. So using his method, I was able to get all the aluminum off the bores with a wire brush. Then I very lightly honed out the cylinder to remove any high spots I might have missed.
The resulting repair is below.
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In the above figure, I have marked the location of the major aluminum meltdown with a smear of dye. In that area I wire brushed off a maximum measured 0.0005” of cylinder. The vertical score marks that appear are very light and all but 2 cannot be finger nailed or felt. Of the two deeper 2 scratches that you can see in the picture, I can barely feel the one while the largest scratch I can feel and will just slightly grab with a finger nail. Although I have removed less than 0.0001”, I am hesitant to hone any further as my primary goal was to remove the high spots. Not sure how much more would be gained.
Everything in this bore now measures similar to the other bores. In general the wear is a maximum of 1 thou more than about 1.5” away from the head surfaces. Bores are generally nominal diameter when measured across the wrist pin centerline the whole way down.
I have used assembly dye on the cylinder, then inserted a piston ring and cycled it to wear away the dye. I did not find any high spots. The ring wears evenly from what I can tell.
I am temped to leave well enough alone with this cylinder. I think I’d have to really open up the bore in order to remove all traces of scoring and I really don’t think I’d gain much.
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sometimes, you gotta do what you can afford to do at the moment.
I would try to find a ball hone (flex hone) and try to put a cross hatch on the walls-I don't see any sign of a cross hatch pattern from the pic
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sometimes, you gotta do what you can afford to do at the moment.
I would try to find a ball hone (flex hone) and try to put a cross hatch on the walls-I don't see any sign of a cross hatch pattern from the pic
If you look really closely all the random hone marks, I can just barely make out one or two small sections of cross hatching! :icon_lol: I'd never believe it looking at the result, but I do remember attempting to follow some sort of pattern when honing.
If I run into a ball hone I'll take another shot at it.
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should be easy enuf to do..they are cheap and the pattern will hold oil in the walls rather than letting it go straight down the scratches
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I have a question about end gap of piston rings. I bought as set of sealed power E-434K piston rings. They are moly and called out for a turbo engine, but I think they may also be used as a premium ring for NA motors, which might be some of the issue I am having. I have read that they are not supposed to be file fit, and they came with no instructions on the proper gap in the packaging.
When installed into a cylinder it looks like the gap is at most 0.015". I am under the impression the minimum gap should be 0.020" for these motors. From what I read lots of people recommend anywhere from 0.020" to 0.027" gap for the top ring and generally about 0.002" greater gap in the secondary.
I've looked on the federal mogul site for the proper gap, but have found it to be especially useless, so I thought I'd see what everyone thinks or if anyone has a good source for this spec. I am scared to use the 0.015" gap as, especially since I noticed a factory ring was > 0.027".
Thanks in advance
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factory specs http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/factory_engine_specs.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/factory_engine_specs.htm)
If you are building a high boost engine... .006" per inch should be safe
I would probably file the top one to .02
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Thanks Steve, I'll file the top rings as close to 0.020" as I can without going under. Second rings I'll aim for 2 thou more.
That is strange that the vortex buick site lists end gap from 0.01" - 0.02", it's the same tolerance that my haynes manual has, and I believe it's for an NA. I just double checked 2 of the old rings I have, and they have gaps right around 0.032". This is why I was afraid of the 0.015"
My bores are only worn about 0.001 where I check the ring gap them, so I don't think that explains much. So I guess either my old rings wore this badly in 50k miles, the motor was re-ringed before (not much other evidence of this though), or the ring gap was greater in turbo motors than what was listed on the site...
Either way, I think I am going to shoot for 0.020 to be safe.
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my site is copies of the shop manual
most things I read show .0045 to .006" per inch of bore
.020 would be my top number
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my site is copies of the shop manual
most things I read show .0045 to .006" per inch of bore
Well mystery solved I think, the ring gaps that I were measuring were both secondary compression ring. I installed a used primary compression ring and I measured it to be a 0.015" gap!
Strange both secondary rings are > 0.032" when it calls for the same 0.010 - 0.020. I wonder though if the secondary rings aren't made from a softer material and therefore were more worn. When I compare the "width" (OD - ID) of my used secondary compression rings they are noticeably thinner than the new rings in my set, whereas the primary compression rings are the same "width" as both the new rings...
With this in mind, I am no longer afraid to go a little less on the gaps, but I think I'll still aim for the 20 just to be sure.
Thanks again for all your help Steve!
Bryes
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I have a small update this week, no pictures because I finished up working today when it was dark. I will try to take some more ASAP, but it will probably be next weekend.
I had a lot going on in September and October, so I was only able to work on the car sporadically, but now I am starting to get back into it. I have the short block assembled now and have sandblasted all of the pulleys, brackets and etc., but I have been stuck trying to paint everything for probably the last month or so. The weather hasn't been cooperating down here, in fact, twice I brought everything out to paint and failed. I thought Ohio was the only place that bringing parts outside to paint instantly triggers rain clouds, but it seems to work in Savannah too!
Fortunately for me today, the third time was the charm, today the weather was perfect! I was sweating bullets there for a bit thinking that it could be a major stumbling block if the temperature would drop here in Savannah and not rise sufficiently until spring. In Ohio, I have painted even in the 50's, but its hard enough for me to get everything right as it is, so the last thing I want to do was to throw another variable into the equation. Fortunately I was able to spray everything I had prepped. I had some issued with fisheyes on the turbo cover, and dropped one pulley I had just painted in the dirt, but aside from these two mishaps, I think everything turned out pretty well. I used Dupont Imron to paint everything. Old school I know, but I trust that stuff to be tough as nails. It's been awhile since I have painted anything, so that's my excuse for the rookie mistakes.
I should also mention that a few weeks ago I finished sandblasting and painting the headers. I used a Por 15 product called "Black Velvet" that summit racing had on clearance. More pictures on this next week as well.
Well sorry again for the lack of pictures but I'm just really glad to get the paint job out of the way. Hopefully it still looks decent when I see everything in full light! I'll try and get some pictures up so you can tell me what you think.
Bryes
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Well I was able to work on the motor this weekend for quite a bit, and although I didn't get as far along as I would have liked to, hopefully the engine will really start taking shape next weekend. I have been sandblasting, chasing the threads and painting just about every fastener, so it is pretty time consuming.
Attached is a picture of the motor in its current state. You can see the oil pan laying upside-down on top. Everything came out fairly nice I'd say, especially for the non-ideal circumstances. I think I had some water in the air lines because my little 2 horse compressor doesn't have any filter, so there are small fish-eyes places, but you have to really look to find them. I'll have to figure out something else when I paint the bumper fillers though.
I am currently working on the timing cover. I had one heck of a time getting the aluminum bracket that mounts the crank position sensor off of the cover. The dowel was rusted and more or less welded the bracket to the cover. To make matters worse, now I can't get the "pinch bolt" loosened up to remove the sensor, I'm afraid the bolt is just about ready to snap (my next step is heating the bracket, but I'll ruin the sensor). Does anyone sell the whole bracket?
Also, I have to order the cam button and have been reading that it is better to use a roller button out of later model 3.8. Is this the right way to go?
Anyway, that is the update for now, hopefully next week I'll be further along and cant take some better pictures before the sun goes down. There is not enough daylight this time of year, especially when you start working at 1 :icon_eyes:
Bryes
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mouse over me to nos4gn click (http://www.nos4gn.com/servlet/the-834/Buick-Grand-National-crank/Detail)
AJ___
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Are you saying that is crank sensor bracket is still pinned to the timing cover with a steel pin? If so, that pin is supposed to stay in the block!
You can buy just the bracket. Only problem is that the replacement bracket only works with a replacement crank sensor. Not really the end of the world though. If you've already got an aftermarket sensor I think I paid $12 for my last bracket.
I think you will automatically get the upgraded roller button now. If you want to make sure, order one for a '95 buick park avenue with a 3800 (same engine for the wider rod bearings). I wanna say the part number is MR-1874
I do see one big problem though... You shouldn't have painted the cam bearing. If it's still kinda wet hit it with brake parts cleaner like RIGHT NOW!!! If it's fully cured I can't think of anything I would trust to remove that paint without messing up the bearing surface (not to mention whatever chemical it is getting into the oil passages). You might have to knock that one out and get a replacement. Has the freeze plug been installed in the cam tunnel yet?
Also it looks lie your brass oil block is still in the engine. I would make sure that there isn't a paint flake in there waiting to block off oil to the turbo!
And if you're going to remove the block and the front cam bearing take a dremel tool with a round carbide cutter and radius the oil passage where it turns going to the cam bearing. MAKE SURE to get all the chips out if you take that step!
Oh yeah.... set your intake in place of the oil pan. It looks like your paint might not go down far enough to cover all the exposed metal.
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Thanks for the link 1987 GN.
As always thanks a lot for your in detailed responses Earl,
by paragraph:
When I pulled the timing cover off the pin came with it. I was finally able to separate the crank bracket from the timing cover, but now the pin is indeed still stuck in the bracket!
I still have the OEM crank sensor but it looks like now I will likely be forced to go aftermarket. Will any aftermarket bracket work or will I have
Ok, that's the one I'll get.
Well one thing for sure, the paint has cured now. In retrospect, I should have just put the cam in before spraying. I don't think all is lost though, because while all evidence clearly points to the contrary, believe it or not I didn't intentionally paint the Cam bearing! I tried to just coat the engine just past where the timing cover installed, so maybe it is not very thick... maybe just overspray. Either way, I can probably remove the paint with scotchbright if I have to. Do you think it would really be a problem other than than installing the cam? I'd think it would just wear off and be flushed by the oil into the crankcase. What would be the worst case scenario, a flake? Has anyone had problems painting a bearing?
I'll check out those blocks to see if what I can see. I definitely don't want flakes in my oil passages. If I have to I'll pull them off.
Ok, hopefully that bearing isn't coming out.
I'll be sure to set the intake on to see, if I missed places I can touch them up.
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Screwing with that bearings is a little scary. If the paint rolls up on itself during use it might cause weird things. If you scotchbrite it, you'd be introducing many many small pieces of really abrasive grit to a new engine. Not to mention any removal of bearing material will increase your cam-to-bearing clearance... and of all the bearings to open up that's the last one you want to clearance....
The way the Buick oil system works is the pump creates a head pressure... it goes in the block and hits the front cam bearing first... what ever doesn't leak out of that bearing clearance feeds the entire engine! Any oil hemorrhaged there is taken completely out of the loop.
I hate to sound like I'm trying to scare you.. There's a chance the cam would turn and everything would be just groovy... on the other hoof, is it worth $20 to avoid that potential pitfall?
I bet I can make that 20 clams look more appeasing... Did the machine shop install that bearing with the feed hold at 7:30 (when viewed from the front) like they were supposed to, or did they clock the bearing to feed the oil at 4:00 like it should actually be done?
If you have a grooved block or a grooved bearing OD, you can move the feed hole to 4:00. That will give the front journal more support/better oiling and it will limit the amount of oil it can bleed off if the clearances open up.
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Thanks again for your response earl.
I think that I was able to address the bearing issue. Although it looks like it was thoroughly coated with paint in the picture, it was just overspray. I can see bearing material shining through the overspray all the way around the circumference of the bearing. I am just not worried about it because it can't really flake off or curl up.
To my knowledge, the last machine shop that this engine has seen was in '86 or '87 in the GM plant! I think I noticed today that the bearing is installed clocked at 7:30 (I couldn't tell if it was AM or PM) :)
Well this weekend I was able to "earl Brown" my front cover. Also, I sandblasted some more bolts in addition to the valve covers (a few places I had missed before) and the water pump. I am preparing to use the old water pump should Santa Clause not bring me one this year. Unfortunately, I've been on the naughty list for quite a few years now... so I am not expecting much :P
I am still waiting on the cam thrust bearing, I ordered one last week but the one that came in was the old vinyl style. Not sure how that happened because I tried to order one for the '95 PA. I guess that is what I get for ordering from ebay.
It looks like I will also have to buy another tensioner.
Well I should have plenty of time to work on this thing in the next few weeks, so as long as I am not waiting on parts, I think I have a chance of getting it in the car.
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I "earlbrown"d a timing cover this weekend too :)
You can get the tentioner and thrust button from any of the fast food parts houses. Right now advanceautopar ts.com is giving a 20% discount on any online orders too. Might put it on par with Ebay pricing and you can have it that day if it's in stock.
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Hello again,
I am having difficulty finding the correct front seal for the timing cover. After removing the old rope seal ring I measure the ID on my cover as about 2 5/8" . The oil seals that I tried from autozone and Oreily's both seem to measure 2 3/4". I know that those things are always a tight fit but this seems way off. I think I'd wind up breaking the cover before it would press in there.
Both stores referenced the same pt#, 710162 which was 2-3/4" OD. Does anyone know if this is correct?
Thanks
Bryes
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that seems to be the right Timken part number for our front covers, and many more. It has been too long since I did one and I don't remember the size. I did not have any problem driving it home, tho.
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Sounds about right. I just measured a new lip seal for a GM cover at it's OD is 2.655 (the metal lip is a little over 2-3/4 if that's what they were talking about)
The seal that comes with the Fel-Pro TCS45930 is a National brand with S-I2623 and K100674R on it.
You did remove that metal piece when you took out the rope seal didn't you?
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Thanks for getting back with me so quickly.
Let's see if this picture helps. I did drive out the rope seal ring, so that was never the issue. Below is a picture of the front cover, seal and my measurements. I returned the seal earlier, so I had to cartoon it in. I was afraid to drive it into place because of how much interference (1/8") and while I haven't ever installed this exact seal before, I don't remember any of the others having so much interference.
Earl, it seems like you are measuring similar dimensions?
If so I guess I'll have to try again.
Thanks
Bryes
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Here is the Felpro number http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/fel-pro-gm-front-cover-oil-seal-p/fel-15200.htm (http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/fel-pro-gm-front-cover-oil-seal-p/fel-15200.htm)
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Or for less money, you can get the whole kit
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fel-Pro-TCS45930-Engine-Timing-Cover-Gasket-Set-/200842038144?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec31e4b80&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fel-Pro-TCS45930-Engine-Timing-Cover-Gasket-Set-/200842038144?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec31e4b80&vxp=mtr)
Your cartoon is off too. The outermost lip is a little over the 2-3/4 mark. It the rubber part with the fine ridges on them was 1/8 big, it was the wrong seal. You're not going to be able to install it with that much interference fit.
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LOL! If there is one thing that "who framed roger rabbit" has taught us, it's that cartoons are always "a little off"!
That Timken seal did not have ridges on the OD, it was smooth and there was no bent ridge to keep it from being installed too deep. It looked to me like the whole OD measured around 2-3/4" no matter how deep you put the calipers on it... any cross-section cut perpendicular to the centerline of the bearing would have the same OD as the cartoon.
I wish that I could order that $9 set, but I have this week off and I don't want to wait that long! I'm going to go to NAPA when they open to see if they have the fel-pro part.
Thanks again,
Bryes
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If there was no metal lip, the seal they sold you was nowhere near close to being the right one.
All the fast food parts houses sell the full kit.
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Well I wasted my entire day but I finally think I got the right seal. In the morning I was trying to just buy the seal instead of the kit, and found that nobody, not even the dealer has them in stock. Then I read earl's post and decided to try buying the full kit. Sure enough Oreily's down the street had it. I got it home to find that the kit contained a seal with 2.25" OD, too small (See first picture below)! Not sure what this seal is for and I can't read any #s on it, but it won't install in the cover or fit over the balancer.
I did notice that the kit from Oreily's had been taped so I called advance and made the guy rip into the kit and measure the seal, he said it was 2 5/8" so I bought it. Sure enough, finally it is the right one. It's a national K100674-R and is made in mexico. I wish the timken had worked (made in usa, company HQ in Canton Ohio), but at this point I would have bought one from Joseph Stalin... and left a tip!
This one fits easily and has the lip that earl mentioned that the others did not. Pictured again below.
Lessons learned:
Pt # 710162, od = 2-3/4" does not work
Always be leery of opened packaging
Don't buy the front timing seal individually, buy the TC 45930 kit
National S-I2623 K100674-R is 2 5/8" at the ridges and will fit.
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One more obstacle conquered!
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Yeah, that was way harder than it needed to be.
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Merry Christmas to everyone and thanks again for everyone's help on the timing seal fiasco, looks like we have another one to deal with.
Now that the front cover is finished I was ready to install the cam. I was going to "dial" it in once I had it installed but I decided to do a sanity check by measuring each lobe at the maximum and minimum. I believe the cam is shot, now I'm kicking myself for not checking it sooner.
From front back for lobes 1-12, the maximum measurements for each lobe were:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1.490, 1.485, 1.465, 1.465, 1.475, 1.464, 1.457, 1.468, 1.469, 1.468, 1.487, 1.485
Each minimum lobe diameter was consistently right around 1.230"
The way that I see it, not only do the cam lobes vary by over 0.030", but the maximum lift of any lifter is:
1.490" - 1.230" = 0.260".
From the factory the lift should be 0.384"/ 408".
I was really hoping to not replace the cam and thought that it would be OK since the engine only has 58k on it (supposedly), but obviously I'll have to get a new one.
Does anyone have any suggestions? I really want the cam and lifters to be made in the usa. I am OK with spending more to get a superior flat tappet variety, but I don't want to spend a mint for a roller. I believe I am going to go with the stock spec cam because this is going to be mild motor. Any suggestions on what and where to buy would be very helpful
Thanks in advance
Bryes
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Nice to see you're measuring and going over it with a fine tooth comb....
The numbers you measuring are the 'lobe lift'. The lift numbers you've read that are published is 'valve lift' which is 'lobe lift' X 'rocker ratio'. In our case the stock rockers are rated at 1.55:1.
So a .384/.408 cam would have .248/.263 lobes at 1.55:1.... and that to your base circle of 1.230" and you have 1.478 and 1.493 total lobe height.
It's odd that your measurements are all over the place. Usually when a lobe starts to fail it's a VERY short amount of time when you can measure the wear with a tape measure!
Just for grins take your lifters one at a time (DON'T MIX THEM UP) and put them on a flat mirror or plate glass. They should wobble slightly as the bottoms are slightly convex. If you have ANY of them that are concave or flat, that's proof it's time for a cam.
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Thanks again earl,
Oh, that explains such a drastic difference, that pesky rocker ratio, I was wondering how they could be worn so much!
I tried putting the lifters on some plate glass (have them all #'d with a sharpie now and egg cartoned to not mix them) and unfortunately I didn't notice any of them wobbling. I wish I had some new ones to compare with though, because it seams highly unlikely that all of them are really bad.
Because I am not confident with my skills utilizing the "earl brown plate glass method", I just now also remeasured all of the lobes; as it turns out, they were all within 0.002" of the original values in my previous post. I believe even though they are all over the place we can be confident to make a decision about the cam using those measurements.
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If you're using calipers (or not real good with a mic) .002" is probably acceptable SWAG for the cam measuring.
Since you can't detect any wobble (or know what it feels like, put a lifter on the glass and spin it. If it's flat or concave it should want to resist spinning and want to flop over. If it's convex I'd imagine it'd be like a weeble wobble.
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I've been using calipers for this.
I tried spinning the lifters on the plate glass but they are all really felt similar. I also tried to see if they'd stick with a little oil and they all seemed similar again.
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Just for shits and grins do you lifters have a hardened foot on them? I.E. there's a distinct ring on the base where a different metal has been 'glued' to the bottom.
Try holding the lifter up infront of the monitor ass end up.. then lay the body of the caliper across it and see if you can see a slight dome that way.
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Yes they do seem to have a hardened feet.
I tried that but I still cannot, I think that this tells the tale though.
I dyed the bottom of all the lifters and then ran them over the plate glass. Each and every one of them wore off the dye on the edges but none in the middle. Even the ones that look like they have no dye removed in the picture actually have a very small strip removed from the edge. Each and every lifter is concave.
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Hardend feets means they were original or rebuilt many years ago....
....fortunat ely you caught them in time.
Good job with the layout dye.
Does your budget have room for a roller and a set of Morel lifters?
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I should have caught this months ago, as much as I have been reading about cam failures I should have checked it sooner. I thought I'd be OK bc of the "lower" miles and the fact that the car was setting since 2001... before zinc went away in oil I guess. Now its not looking too good as far as me getting a lot of work done during my break. My wife is already ticked at me because we were supposed to take a trip and I instead opted to work on the car. Also, I blew Christmas for her again this year because I guess when women ask for a security system they are not talking about ordering yourself an AR :068: . But that's more for the Bitch/Whine and Moan thread.
Here's why I'll take some more convincing to justify the $500-$700 additional expense to upgrade (is there any machining necessary or will it just slide in?):
I already have comp 980's in the heads, so I'd have to buy other springs too. For me running race oil or adding ZDDP is no big deal. Heck, I will likely only drive the car a thousand miles or less each year, so maybe my grandchildren can worry about changing out the cam again! From everything I have read, I don't want to change the factory cam profile because my engine is stock and I have no plans of getting to the point of being able to utilize a more aggressive cam.
I'm open to entertaining the idea though so I'd sure like to hear any opinions on the subject.
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oIf you can get a wife pass I'd go 206/206 roller and not look back.
Then again I built a rocket stove on my living room carpet two nights ago because I have no need for a wife pass. My opinions might be skewed! :D
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Yeah, from the sound of it skewed might be a good description :icon_lol:
I just don't see much advantage in spending the extra $$ for this project, so I think I'll stick with the old school cam. Also, maybe I can pick up one locally to get this project back on track for this week. I think NAPA had a cam w. lifter set for maybe $150. Any thoughts?
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Another problem with roller lifters is the side load that it puts on the lifters, which can wear the lifter bores. Have there been any problems created?
Earl, I noticed in that "Cam selection" thread that you recommended this kit:
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/customkititems.asp+kc+001BUROLLMOREL+eq (http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/customkititems.asp+kc+001BUROLLMOREL+eq)
It is $819 with the springs and pushrods:
Would I be able to install into my otherwise completely stock engine without machining?
I guess I would consider it bc it comes with everything.
Also do you know where it is made? I try to not buy imported parts.
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If you go flat tappet, I would only buy U.S. lifters that have been hardened on the bottom. Johnson has started making lifters here again.
This not Earl's favorite company but they do sell good quality parts http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1405 (http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1405)
For a flat tappet cam, I would pick something between 204-208 degs on the intake....will still have plenty of torque and add a bit more power between 4600-5200 rpm.
There are plenty of good oils available without resorting to using additives beyond what is in the package provided by the oil company.
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Side loading isn't an issue with rollers. If it was, flat tappets would be 100 times worse.
I'll let 'teve take over with the flat tappets. I think they belong in a museum not in an engine. From years of reading and absorbing through osmosis the low 200's seem to be a good duration for a stock compression street car. The don't require the valve guides to be topped either AFAIK.
And he's right about TA too... There's nothing in that catalog you can't get cheaper except that stupid ass 'oil pump shim gaskets' that I wouldn't run on a Briggs 'n Stratton. :D
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Well if you guys haven't heard of it being a problem then I'm sure it's safe to say its not a problem.
Side loading isn't an issue with rollers. If it was, flat tappets would be 100 times worse.
It doesn't seem like it though, with a round lifter (roller or not), unless the cam lobe contacts directly on top of of the lifter, there will always be a side force. With a flat lifter the force will always be in-line with the lifter bore. See the picture below.
Either way I just can't justify the extra $600 for the roller, so Steve, what I am thinking is to order the
Product ID: TA_V260H231H.440"-206'/.440"-206',112'
cam and
Product ID: TA_V1405V6 HYDRAULIC LIFTER
I really wish that there was something local because this will pretty much kill my efforts for this week, but then again knowing that these cams are a problem it is not worth getting a cheap cam. At least with this cam I will also know for sure that it will work without any other modifications and not break the bank.
Thanks to everyone once again!
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IF you can handle the money, I agree on the roller part :D
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I can afford a roller, but I just can't see where it is worth the extra cash.
In fact, right now I feel like there is no real advantage for me over a new flat tappet. For my setup it seems like longevity is a real advantage to a roller, but then again I'll be driving the car so little (1k/ year maybe) that a flat lifter should hold up until I am in a nursing home anyway.
So I guess the only advantage would be in performance , so that's what I really need to know. Considering I plan on running a stock engine and turbo, how much horsepower or et advantage ( potential for hp counts too) can I expect from the roller as apposed to the $200 cam that Steve suggested?
I would rather spend the cash other places if there is no real advantage for me.
Thanks
Bryes
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You can get a 260H grind from Summit and they'll ship it tomorrow and not assrape you on shipping charges...
http://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/make/buick/engine-size/3-8l-231/engine-family/gm-v6/brand/comp-cams/part-type/camshaft-and-lifter-kits/grind-number/260h (http://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/make/buick/engine-size/3-8l-231/engine-family/gm-v6/brand/comp-cams/part-type/camshaft-and-lifter-kits/grind-number/260h)
If the flat tappet fails, takes out your entire motor, including the turbo and radiator, the extra money will look like a bargain.
On your cam drawing they omitted that the cam lobe is turning and the flat tappet lobe is dragging along the bottom of the lifter. That's actually the exact reason they like to go flat. On other engines when lift numbers start getting stupid big, they have to get bigger diameter lifters or install some mushroom lifters from the bottom.
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If for some reason the flat tappet fails due to a soft Chinese core, or more likely a soft Chinese lifter, then the real cost is that of a rebuilt engine as Earl stated. For that reason, I offered a hardened U.S. made lifter such as offered by TA Performance. Earl has a hard on for TAP because they charged him more for shipping than the oil pump cover gasket set cost. I tend to agree with him but offer than many companies do the same. More than once, I have ordered a two buck part from Summit and have paid $9.95 for handling. It's cheaper than the gas costs for a 100 mile round trip to town in hopes that they have what I want.
There is very little difference in performance between a roller and a flat tappet-particularly on a low performance engine. On a high performance engine, it can be quite a difference because one can run a lobe profile on a roller that a flat tappet lifter has no chance of tracking.
On a stock engine, the factory claimed torque peaked at 2000 rpm and hp peaked at 4400 rpm. They may have lied on the torque number and the hp number, but the rpm points seem about right to me based on my own experience with a new car back in '86. The cars were programmed to hit 14 psi for two seconds and then fall back to 12 psi of boost for the duration of the run. Certainly, the stock cam and turbo was all in by 4600-4800 rpm
The factory valve springs were perfectly adequate for these boost levels altho the quality of the spring was pretty sorry and they were usually tired within 50,000 miles.
Earl has given you the math already as to the reason to use a bit more spring pressure as the boost comes come. Further, if we put a looser converter, bigger turbo on the car, then we not only chop some off the bottom of the curve, but we waste some at the top end if the cam will not rev further without some more pressure-both from a tracking the lobe matter as well as the valves bouncing around due to higher boost in the cylinder.
Most of the articles written about the oil and zddp amounts being too low happen to be talking about race cam with very high spring pressures, but this point is generally ignored by the hypsters selling zddp. We do have a problem with flat tappet cams, however....if you look into the lifter bore on 3E, you will see that the cam lobe is almost dead center on the bore so that lifter is sitting almost in the middle of the lobe rather than being properly offset so that the convex base of the lifter is not readily swiped by the taper ground into the lobe front to rear. If you look at the engine while running, with the valve cover off, you will see that the push rod is rotating much slower on 3E because the lifter is rotating slowly. This ain't good, but, if the engine is broken in properly and the springs are not 135 psi, it should be good to go.
If I were to use a flat tappet cam, I would use a special break in oil rather than an additive. I used Joe Gibbs break in oil on the 440 in my challenger a year and a half ago. I also would go a bit further than many do on a break in. I typically go for 30 minutes and blip the throttle up to about 3200 from 2400 rpm every five minutes in order to throw more oil up top and keep it wet and cool.
More than one guy has run into the tens on the stock cam with stronger springs. It's easier, however, if you add some duration to the cam (along with more lift) so the bigger turbo does not have to work so hard to make power at 5000-5400.
Earl's point stands however. Cheap only counts if you don't have to do it twice :)
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Thanks Earl, I 'll check it out summit tomorrow thanks! Hopefully they'll have the good American made lifters. If not then I guess I'll get the TAs.
I just don't see the cam wearing out as an issue when all these cars are running around with 150k + miles on an unopened mill and stock cam. I am not building this thing to go 200k or run 10's, if I were then I would buy the roller cam. By the time the cam fails and takes out the radiator (you'll have to explain that one to me!) as far as I am concerned, my grandkids can worry about it! Plus who is going to want to drive this thing when gas is $120 / gal?
Besides do we really know that roller lifters are that reliable? Many flat lifters have run 300k miles and more. Who is to say that rollers won't give out, especially when companies start cutting corners, for all we know they already have. I can imagine steel needle bearing wreaking havoc in the bowls of my engine!
As far as the friction goes on the flat tappet cam, that dynamic friction forces you are talking about is a function of the coefficient of kinetic friction (mk) and is defined as:
< P = atan(mk)
Friction can vary a lot for many different reasons, but for two polished hardened steel surfaces like a cam and lifter it will be very low (maybe as low as 0.1).
If its 0.1, then <P = 5 degrees
If its 0.2, then <P = 11 degrees
Even if the kinetic friction is 0.3, the pressure angel of a flat tappet cam is 17deg which is still way lower than the 30 degree pressure angels seen in a round tappet cam, and the side loads will still be around 50% of round tappets. Those side loads create friction forces that work against the direction of the lifter, reduce power and efficiency, thus giving back some advantage of the roller mechanism.
Here is a source that talks about a similar side load advantage for flat tappets in a chevy engines
\
http://books.google.com/books?id=UlvzvjzQMsoC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22pressure+angle%22+flat+tappet&source=bl&ots=DFI9EfSLu6&sig=L4Fb157U7QkknvXXYM1sbf3NyAc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jcHbUJP3HI6I9QTRj4CoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22pressure%20angle%22%20flat%20tappet&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=UlvzvjzQMsoC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22pressure+angle%22+flat+tappet&source=bl&ots=DFI9EfSLu6&sig=L4Fb157U7QkknvXXYM1sbf3NyAc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jcHbUJP3HI6I9QTRj4CoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22pressure%20angle%22%20flat%20tappet&f=false)
Also I think he covers it for more general purpose,
F.Y Chen, "Design of Cam Mechanisms"
Thanks again
Bryes
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don't rollers have a faster ramp too?
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Thanks Steve, I'm not going to buy anything but US lifters. Are the TA cams USA too.
I hear Earl on that shipping thing though. I went to TA a couple of weeks back to order a cam button for 12.95 or something and they wanted 15 bucks for shipping! Now I know that shipping prices have went up but that is highway robbery, and it cost them my business.
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I was thinking I gave you the cam button part number to get one from a fast food parts house...
Sorry about that, you could have just picked one up locally for about $12 had it in your hand.
The shipping was only part of the problem with my test order at TA. They screwed up my order and when I called to try and get it straightened out, it turns out everybody at TA is new, nobody has any authority other than to take orders, none of them know each other and they'll say that discontinued items are in stock. Per TA, the shipping charges are always UPS's fault.
There's a chance my experience was an anomaly, but they had one chance to get the order right, one chance to call me before sending it out and 2 or 3 chances to make it right after the fact. I always cut ties with people that give me that much greif right out of the gate.
If I want piss poor customer service I order from whoever is cheapest. At least then you're not paying for something you're not getting.
I'm curious who makes their cam blanks. AFAIK there's only a couple companies actually making cam cores. That's out of my relm of expertise as the only current flat tappet knowledge is I have was accidentally absorbed. Then again they also claim that the TA roller rockers made by T&D are better than the T&D rockers made by T&D. After reading that I tend to question their credibility concerning their parts.
Actually the off the seat ramp speed is faster on a flat tappet generically speaking. The actual lifter intensity is part of the cam grind, and what tappet is riding on it.
The reason you lose the radiator is because the oil cooler gets cam lobe grit in it. If you don't replace it and use the cooler on the new engine you'll be metering fine abrasive into the new engine as it dislodges from the cooler.
When an engine experiences a lobe failure, the only plan to repair is to take the engine all the way down to the bare block and clean it. A very expensive proposition. Normally I don't mind chancing stuff but with this one the ROI just isn't worth it.
If you don't mine chancing it, go over your stock cam with a fine tooth comb. If there is no pitting and you can clearly see the silver pathways the lifters have been riding on. (normally it's a silver line that goes around the base circle then gets the full width at the cam nose). Your lifters aren't beat all to hell so it looks like you might have caught them problem before the cam got damaged. Years ago the common rule was to never reuse lifters if you moved a cam to a different block. I used to hear about people running used cams with new lifters.
If the cam looks runable put the stock springs back in without the cups, get a new set of lifters with hardned feet. (I think the part number is Johnson 969's or 969HT). Take your thumb and apply the cam jizz like you're trying to force it between the molecules on the cam lobes. Put some Mobil1 in the pan with a can of ZDDP and pull the pin.
After doing the break in procedure, Drain the oil, make a mental note of how much hair is on the magnetic drain plug, refill the crankcase and put a 100 or so easy miles on it.
If you can get both pieces to work harden without a failure, you should be good to go for quite a while.
A dial indicator with a magnetic base can check the lobes just by pulling the valve cover and rocker shafts. If the lobes survive the bed-in process reinstall the new valve springs and run it.
I'd trust a factory cam more than I would a new blank.
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Oh that explains the radiator, I'd just get an external oil cooler though I think.
Earl, are you forgetting though that I have some lobes that are worn by 0.030"?
I would absolutely love to go that route, that would be a cheap way out!
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I thought you went back and remeasured and were within .002"?
EDIT: I went back and reread it... Now I see where I retained the .002" number. You might be OK with the difference since the published numbers you posted show a duel pattern cam. I've never measured a stock cam so I can't say what the actual lobe height is.
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I only know TA sells Johnson lifters...I am leaving this one with Earl as he has it covered
And, yes, Larry, they can have more abrupt profiles, but, on a small cam, it is seldom noticeable unless you get snookered by advertising claims
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Thanks for all your help Steve!
Earl, you did save me that $$ because once I saw the $15 for shipping I immediately killed the order and eventually got it from NAPA! I owe you big time.
Back to the cam wear issue:
After you set me straight on the rocker ratio, I calculated the total lift for lobe 1 as,
(1.49 - 1.230) * 1.55 = 0.403"
This figure is close to the factory spec of 0.408.
BUT, lobe 7 which corresponds to the #3 cyl intake valve measures 1.457" at the lobe maximum diameter, thus the lift is now,
(1.457 - 1.23)*1.55 = 0.352"
This is 0.032" short of the factory spec of 0.384".
I have done these similar calculations for all lobes, below is a summary for you reading entertainment:
I think I need to be in the market for a new cam as well, let me know what you think.
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I just called TA and full throttle to find out about the flat and roller cams.
TA seems to be closed for business until Jan 7.
I checked on rollers at full throttle who were very helpful. They said that the heads would need to have the guides machined to install any of their roller cams, which is another good reason for me not to go that route.
I am going to check with NAPA and the other fast food parts chains to see if I can get an American made cam and lifters; then again they will probably just say what I want to hear regardless of where it actually comes from. If not then unless anyone has other ideas, I guess I might just have to wait until after the break to do any further work.
Besides, there are a number of things that I have been putting off doing, like installing the chip, scanmaster, clean the engine bay, install the hotwire kit, that might keep me busy for awhile so it won't all be a waste. I wish I could turn the car around to at least check the fuel pump though, it was supposedly replaced but I think I'll put in a Walbro 340 (I'll take suggestions too) when I can. The shed that I am working out of is so small that my gut can hardly squeeze between the car and wall in order to get back there! I thought after I got the mill running that I'd take the car up to Ohio to get it on the lift and install that stuff.
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I wound up ordering the cam from TA, they had a 208/208 grind that everyone seems to have good luck with so I installed it this weekend and degreed it in. I'm glad I did because I initially had the timing mark aligned with the key instead of the (really poorly etched) correct timing mark.
My goal for next weekend is to get the timing cover, oil pan and heads installed. It's nice to be in Savannah this time of year, the weather is perfect for working outside :icon_smile:
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that's progress. Yep, I don't like it too hot, or too cold, but, I can manage hot when I am in the mood...
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Well, I had a pretty good weekend as far as getting things done with the engine. I think I now pretty much have a complete long block now as I was able to install the timing cover, heads, oil pan, rockers / lifters and water pump. I am missing one of the rocker shaft bolts and since I had a bunch of parts on the living room floor, I can only hope that its disappearance and the vacuum cleaner making loud noises are purely coincidental.. .. because I think I emptied that bag :hmm I still have to find a way to tighten the big bolt on the harmonic balancer, but other than that I think it's all assembled properly.
Below is the mill in its current state.
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Looking like an engine now!
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Well once the weather cooperates I'll be able to make some more progress on this engine. If it is rainy or too windy I can't do any work because I have to have the shed door open, and the last few weekends have seen their share of both.
Plus the other day as I was admiring my "expert" craftsmanship, I noticed dangling from a nail ..... the dreaded oil slinger! :013: So since my last post the only progress that I have made is fixing that screw-up.
That being said, I have been thinking about how to install my exhaust headers and have been reading that some use header gaskets or copper rtv while others do not. Mine had gaskets on them, so I think that's the best route for me to take because they may have been needed in the first place. The fel-pro kit that I bought has them so I don't even have to spend any $$. Any opinions?
I am also planning on re-using as many of my old sensors as I can other than the o2, knock and fan switch, which I have already bought new. It seems like the cam sensor, map and crank sensor are also fairly problematic. Is there any way of testing these to insure that my used ones are OK? Anything else that should be tested before the motor goes in?
The intake is ready to go with the new fuel system, so as soon as I get a good weekend (I'll be out of town next weekend too), I'll be really close to being able to set the thing in. I think it is time to start reading up on initially starting the engine and breaking in the cam. Does anyone know if there are any good threads / checklists?
If I can't find them out there, I'm going to start putting together some sort of checklist to do before I turn the key. It would be nice to leave as little to chance as I can.
As always thanks for any responses.
Bryes
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take the headers to a machine shop and have the flanges belt sanded flat....then they will seal no matter which route you take
it probably had gaskets on it because someone thought cars came from the factory that way
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Thnks Steve, I'm going to check to see if the manifold surfaces are warped next weekend, if they are then I can straighten them out with an air file :cheers: I bought copper gaskets from summit and I guess that I plan to use them either way unless there is a reason not to?
This weekend I was able to get the intake installed and worked on some other parts. I need to start thinking about putting the beast back into the car.
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PLEASE cover up that oil cooler adapter with a bag and some tape!!!!! Oh and an aerosol cap fits in the throttlebody perfect to seal it off. Put some tape over the exhaust ports too.... Better yet go ahead and put the manifolds in place.
Oh yeah, chunk those copper exhaust gaskets into the scrap metal pile. Dab a thing layer or orange RTV on the exhaust port flange and do the same on the header port flanges. Let it skin over and then dry for about 20 minutes. After that put the headers in place and run the fasteners down. It'll also give you a chance to torque cycle the fasteners a few times before installing the engine.
Use that same "let the RTV dry method" on the crossover flange too. Make sure to run them down evenly and don't let the crossover touch the pan or the bell housing cover. Keep it nice and centered.
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OK, I'll cover 'er up next time I'm out there! That Oil adapter was the last thing that I installed so there really wasn't much of a chance for anything to get in there. Everything always gets bagged when I'm not working on it or taking pictures to keep things clean.
If orange RTV is the way to go then that's what I'll do. There seems to be a whole bunch of different opinions on the best methods.
Speaking of the oil cooler adapter, I'd like to buy some new o-rings for the oil cooler lines (those two small ones) that didn't come in my kit. Where would be the best place to get those?
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A thin coat of rtv. Not an 1/8" bead.
Always nice to replace the flanges on a belt sander
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I think you can get a small assortment of orings in the HELP! section of the fast food parts stores. Just don't use the black one's with fuel.
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The engine is together now, and except for replacing the vacuum hoses and some little stuff, is ready to put back into the car. Thanks again to everyone for all of the help on this project... it has been a lot of fun. I can't believe it has been over a year now, nothing like moving at a glacial pace :)
I was able to verify the straightness of my exhaust manifolds with a straight edge, and sealed them with just the silicon as suggested. I must apologize in going against the advice of Earl in using a copper gasket between the exhaust and turbo though. If it leaks then at least it'l be an easy fix. I think it's likely that I'll be removing that turbo soon, so I won't have to clean silicon this way.
I did find some black o-rings at Autozone but the help section had a pack with probably 15 in it, only 1 looked like it was the right size. I brought in the old o-rings to match up with and fortunately they had a package of two behind the desk for only $1.60.
Next weekend I plan on finishing up the engine, then getting the car ready to put it back in. I have to clean the engine compartment and set up the gauges. At my pace it might take me a couple of weeks but as long as I am able to fire it up before summer, I'll be happy.
Also I am second guessing myself a little. I used AC R44TS spark plugs and after reading it seems like cooler plugs are usually recommended. What do you guys think?
Thanks
Bryes
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43's or autolite 24's or NGK UR-5s which might be the best of the three from a quality stance. be sure the gap is 0.035"
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I was able to verify the straightness of my exhaust manifolds with a straight edge, and sealed them with just the silicon as suggested. I must apologize in going against the advice of Earl in using a copper gasket between the exhaust and turbo though. If it leaks then at least it'l be an easy fix. I think it's likely that I'll be removing that turbo soon, so I won't have to clean silicon this way.
It always takes less time to do it twice :D
You'll find the silicon is easy to clean off the exhaust on these cars. It basically gets the hell baked out of it and the 'sticky' gets done in.
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last few times, I have used a gasket because the mounting surface can get warped with time and sometimes will leak...talking about the mounting surface on the up pipe where the turbo sits....
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That's the gasket I was referring to Steve, the one between the up-pipe and turbo flange. I just used a copper gasket that I had bought before I knew Earl's thoughts on the idea :icon_smile:
Awhile back I found a second stock turbo (luckily not too expensive) that was supposedly virgin. Well, as it turns out it isn't; so I had to go back to the original. Once I get the car running, I thought I might try my hand at rebuilding the second one... Thus the gasket idea.
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Now this may seem like a “dog ate my homework” excuse, but I haven’t been able to post for awhile because my old laptop’s keyboard went bad and I haven’t been able to use the “l” “o” “k” or “i” characters. In the process I’ve developed a new appreciation for the importance of these letters in the English language and since the firewall at work won’t let me access this site, I had to finally break out “ancient” 2001 technology in the form of my old 1 ghz amd “thunderbird” machine.
As shown below, the engine is back in the car now and getting close to being fired up.
Before installing it I was able to prelube the motor on the stand by hooking the cooler lines up to the radiator as it sat. I prelubed for quite some time before figuring out that my 10 ft length (maybe even 15') of 1/8" id copper tubing was restricting the fluid too much. The gauge took way tool long to register pressure after I felt the drill load up. I finally hooked up a 6" section of the 1/8” OD tube and was quickly able to read 60 psi of oil pressure I decided to buy an electric oil gauge to eliminate this issue.
The actual installation of the engine wasn’t too bad except for having to remove the front bumper. There is not enough space in my shed to bring the crane in from the side through the wheel well, so I think it was the only option. I only wish I would have removed it at the beginning of the project as that extra space prevents a little more bending over while working in the engine bay I think.
Anyway, we’ll see what happens but I’m guessing in the next couple of weeks I’ll be trying to fire it up!
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hurry up!
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Well the stars have all aligned and the weather has been cool enough that I have finally finished installing the engine and am on the verge of it starting (I hope). All of the fluids are topped off and the new gauges installed. I have cranked it so far a few times for a couple of seconds and it didn’t fire right up. I noticed that the scamaster showed no rpms while cranking, so I think this is my problem.
I went ahead and replaced the crank sensor today, still no RPM while cranking on the scanmaster. I’m trying to keep cranking the engine to a minimum, so I’d like to know how if I am on the right track and am hoping for good suggestions as usual. Any help is much appreciated.
Some other issues that I noticed:
1) I seem to be able to only get about 40 psi of fuel pressure after cranking my regulator almost to its limit. Fuel pump was rumored to be new. Don’t have my hotwire installed yet.
2) The tps wasn’t set (going to fix that right now actually), voltage slightly high .
3) The check engine light stays on and the scanmaster seems to have all the necessary readings.
4) I think maybe the engine temp. reading was way off, I need to 2X check that too. I was just most concerned with the no RPM during cranking.
Let me know if what other information you guys need and I’ll be happy to provide it.
Since I move glacially and probably everyone’s forgotten the rest here is a summary, so you guys don’t have to go digging through the thread.
Mostly still stock.
New 45 injectors,
Matching TT chip.
Spring cleaning.
Rebuilt motor, stock.
206/206 FT cam.
New Crank Sensor, knock sensor, Coil Packs
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I would double check to see if the crank sensor is mounted with the blades passing thru the correct slot and then check for spark at a plug and check for injector pulse so you can figure out where to look next
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Thanks Steve,
I double checked and the crank sensor was mounted in the correct spot and gapped at 0.025" (had to use a piece of my NRA membership card).
On cranking there is no spark and no injector pulse. Also no gas smell after cranking... so I'm certain something is amiss.
What are the next steps?
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Damn it...where did my answer go??????????????
Read this page http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/troubshootgeneral.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/troubshootgeneral.htm)
Normally, it will be the crank sensor or the ignition module, or the related wiring when you have neither spark or injector pulse.
Check the ign-ecm fuse and the ccci fuses plus the ecm-sol. I don't think it is the first or last fuses because you have a check engine light, but check anyway. Check all the connectors to the crank sensor, cam sensor, and module to be sure that no pin was pushed back or bent over....
You may have to go to the trouble trees...also be sure you connected the orange wire off the battery
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Thanks a lot Steve, I'll look into that as soon as I can.
You mentioned a little orange wire that goes to the battery, There's a chance that might be my problem. You see there was a security system that I removed.. or attempted to remove... and I seem to remember it maybe plumbing into that wire. When removing the system, I tried to trace all of the wires down that I could find but I assumed any wires under the hood were siren related. Anyway I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Can you tell me where it goes or where I may find the wiring diagram on you site?
If that's not it then I'll start going through the troubleshootin g guide tomorrow if I get a chance.
Thanks again.
Bryes
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as you have a check engine light, that is probably not the problem...but, there is a orange fusible link that comes off the battery positive cable at the battery and it has a connector in it about ten inches from the battery post or so...connector makes the connection between the fusible link and the rest of the wire which goes to the ecm....
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Well without too much difficulty I was able to get the car running today. I have to give much credit to the no start tree on Steve's sight, http://ihadav8.com/forum/VortexBuicks/troubshootgeneral.htm (http://ihadav8.com/forum/VortexBuicks/troubshootgeneral.htm).The first problem of no spark / no injector pulse turned out to be a loose connection at the ignition module. I must have engaged the connector then forgotten to tighten the bolt, and I guess I never pulled on it to make sure it was tight :hmm .
Once I found that problem the car still wouldn't start. The injectors were firing, I could smell gas, I could hear the engine firing occasionally, and it would even run a little after the starter was disengaged. But something was off... it sounded like the firing order was wrong. Occasionally it would pop, and buck the starter. I double checked the wires and they were OK. I started going to the no-start tree again...
I was thinking about the problem last night and remembered (look back to the beginning of the post) that when I took apart the engine the plug wires weren't in the proper order. I remembered the ignition module wire section (http://ihadav8.com/forum/VortexBuicks/coil.htm) and wondered if maybe the wires were hooked up wrong. I had never inspected this before. I removed the coil packs and sure enough the light blue wire was switched with the green. After I switched them back, the car fired immediately.
Below is a picture of the beast, this is the first time she's seen sunlight since January 2012.
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Car I bought for my son had the module fail. I put a new one on and it acted like yours. Finally figured out the module was not wired properly and the previous owner had played with the plug wires until it ran.
Glad you got it going! Must be a good feeling
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It's definitely a good feeling, it will feel even better when I can get all the bugs out though!
Even though I was able to start the motor, I wasn't able to let it run long enough to break in the cam because of acouple of issues.
The first issue is that the moment it fired the scan master would fade off, so I couldn't tell what RPM it was running at or temps etc. I only have fuel, oil and boost pressure gauges, so I was relying on the scanmaster for everything else. On a related note, I am pretty sure that the alternator wasn't charging (don't think it was before either), but I never had the chance to put a multi-meter on it. Could this be the issue with the scanmaster?
The second issue is that I have a small oil leak at the front cover as shown below. I was getting 75psi at the gauge so I don't think any harm was done. I'll have to look into this problem more, but here is a photo below.
All in all the motor ran a little ratty at first, but at speed it seemed to smooth out. I probably ran it for about 5 minutes at elevated RPM (Estimated 2500 bc of scanmaster not showing) while I was working on things. It smoked like crazy when hot, even when it shut down, bc new paint and never seize on the exhaust.
I'd like to have these issues worked out before attempting to finish break-in, so if anyone has any ideas let me know.
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It is broken in...rings seal in the first couple of minutes with modern rings. Don't know if that was a new flat tappet cam or not, but if it was, then it needed to be broken in on initial start up.
Not sure what was happening with the SM because if it had enuf voltage to run, the SM should work
don't know where the leak is....they often leak around the o ring between the adapter and the housing.
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Yeah, I'm more concerned about the cam which is new, than the rings. I was reading on some cam manufacturers site recently (crane, comp?? don' remember) that if you have to shut down during the break-in, then you should finish it the next time you start. They basically said to bring the RPM up fast, just like the initial break-in and continue on. I don't know, I had to make a decision whether to continue not knowing RPM or temperatures with an oil leak, or shut it down, so I chose to shut it down. It seems like there are a lot of theories on the proper method to breaking in a cam (and rings for that matter), so I tend to think that it might not be as critical as people make it out to be. Then again, I've yet to hear a break-in method that involves shutting down and restarting bunch, so maybe I should be more concerned than I am :icon_confused: Either way it is what it is. Should the lifters fail then we'll know why!
Ok, so good to know that my scanmaster's leds fading is atypical. I used a spade connector in an empty ign. circuit at the fuse box. So maybe I'll try to run power straight from the battery to scanmaster for my next attempt.
I remember when I was putting the oil filter adapter together that I wasn't happy with the o-ring you are describing. So when I looked at it as the engine was running, I was expecting that to be the problem, but it looked more to me like it was seeping from the gasket right there where the arrow is, right in the middle of the bolts. I'm pretty sure those are tight, but I do have a history of leaving bolts loose.
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If you ran it 25 minutes, it should be fine. It helps to keep the rpm at least 2500 and to blip the throttle every minute or so to about 3000 to splash more oil. Normally our cams don't use super stiff springs so it is an easier process.
The fuse block should be fine for the SM...something else is going on..have not seen one fade...my problems are always binary. It works, or it does not :)
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How old is your scanmaster? I have a 2 year old one that did that, would work about 5 minutes, then fade out. A tantalum cap was backwards when built
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I bought mine new 1 year ago. Unlike yours It doesn't heat up and fade away, instead it fades away the moment the engine fires.
I just wonder if I don't have a bad diode in the alternator. I tested it when I had it apart and something didn't seem right. I was using a method from a little bit different model though so I attributed it to this and user error. I'm pretty sure it isn't charging, so that will be the first thing I try now. I'll do that and run the wire right from the battery. Hopefully between the two I'll be able to read the data the next time I fire it up. It's going to be awhile because I'm going to Ohio for a week over labor day.
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put your meter on AC volts and the probes on the battery posts...see what reading you get
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I assume you meant to probe for AC volts when the car is running? If so it will be awhile before I get a chance.
For possible future reference, the battery itself is disconnected and brand new, and shows about 12.5 v DC when probed.
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It would be interesting to disconnect power to the scanmaster start the car then power it up.
What would the displayed sequence be?
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I assume you meant to probe for AC volts when the car is running? If so it will be awhile before I get a chance.
For possible future reference, the battery itself is disconnected and brand new, and shows about 12.5 v DC when probed.
yep....
if a diode is bad, you will find a larger AC voltage. Normally, it should be less than half a volt
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Well I've been working on the car this weekend and a little bit last, so I have some progress to report. I've successfully fixed several gremlins and a couple of demons, mostly of my own doing, but I still have a few more.
The motor is finally running good and broken in. I found out at least one spark plug wire wasn't snapped completely into the spark plug which made it miss. It was the one I pulled off to test the ignition. Now it starts well and idles nice, seems pretty good at higher revs but I'll pass final judgement when its on the road. I've adjusted tps to 0.42 and iac was at 20.... I think, I'll double check that.
Before it was running right, the motor also started making some additional racket. I'd describe it as a metallic white noise sound at the front of the engine, with distinct regular "banging" to go with it. I thought it was my power steering pump, but found the problem when i noticed my serpentine belt was being chewed up. The water pump pulley bolts had loosened and I caught them just before they started flying off!
I had to replace the coolant temp sensor which was showing -36. As it turns out one of the blades was bent so wasn't engaging into the female end. I replaced it with a new one anyway.
The radiator has a leak at the inlet tube where the solder has broken loose. The upper hose was stuck badly, so I probably damaged it when I removed it. I sand blasted it tonight in preparation to re-solder tomorrow.
The scanmaster still fades out at elevated rpms, at least it is clear at idle. I probed for AC volts and it was < 0.5 V, additionally the system shows about 13.8 volts at idle, so seems like it might be charging ok. I think I'll try to mess with the connections, seems like it must be something easy.
The main problem now is that darn oil leak that is shown in a picture a few posts back. Oil was leaking right where I drew that arrow, I even ran it without the intercooler a bit to make sure it wasn't leaking down from another place. I have ran the motor long enough now, so I decided to change the oil and take apart the pump to fix the leak.
I thought maybe I left some bolts loose on the oil pump housing, but when I was pulling it apart they were tight and I remember using my 1/4" torque wrench. When I took the pump apart the gasket that was leaking looked good and had a nice pattern all the way around, so I could find nothing visually to explain why it leaked.
I wonder if the front cover doesn't have a defect that is causing this leak. There was probably a 1/2" of old nasty greasy oil coating the intercooler bracket, which is right where this leak winds up. I thought it was just from oil filter changes, but when I pulled the filter off today the oil missed that bracket. What do you guys think? Do most buicks have oil buildup on that bracket?
I'm not sure what the best approach to use when I put the pump back together, but I hate the thought of throwing silicone at it, because it will squeeze right into the pump gear. I'm thinking about maybe using gasket sealant, and make darn sure to use as little as possible.
Hopefully a local store has that gasket too, anyone have the pt #?
As always thanks in advance for your responses.
Bryes
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is there a crack in the housing? that is common. Could it be the o ring behind the adapter?
No silicone! you don't want to screw up the clearance
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I looked for a crack, but couldn't see anything. I did find a small dimple high spot using layout die that I was able to polish out before I reassembled the oil pump, this time with gasket adhesive. I ran out of time before I had a chance to prime the engine, but hopefully I'll be able to verify the leak when I do.
I soldered up the inlet tube in the radiator, painted the affected area and re-installed it into the car. So at least that is done.
Hopefully I'll have the car back on the road this year, assuming that these issues are fixed, the major hurdles going forward are:
1: Fix PM or convert to vacuum (Brake light is on continuously).
2: Tires all around (I'd like to replace my crappy rims with OEMs, I need 2 more for a complete set.).
3: Rear Window
4: Repair hole in DS floor. (I'm going the easy (if there is such a thing) route with this one for now)
I've got a trip to south dakota coming up in a couple of weeks, so I might not be getting a whole lot done until November.
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You need to test that scanmaster in another car
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Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't know of anyone on the Savannah who has a GN to test it with. Also I did a real hack job to wire up the SM and gauges because the ds door doesn't open wide enough in that shed for me to do a decent job. Now that I can pull it out I hope that the problem won't be too evasive.
I hate to jinx myself but it looks like the engine is a done deal... well as done as a project like this is ever going to be. I primed the oil with a drill the other day, and ran it today for about 20 minutes and from what I can tell the oil leak is now fixed. Also, my radiator seems to be fixed as well, no leaks at my solder joint that I saw.
Tomorrow I'm going to get after the Powermaster. The brake light is on continuously and I have never heard it making any noise like I've read it should. Also, the brakes feel terrible and are the same whether the ignition is on or not even after pumping them about 20 times. I’ll have to start going through the checklist that I’ve seen on TB unless someone knows of a better troubleshootin g guide to start with.
I knew this was an issue awhile back, so I have been able to piece together all the parts for a working PM unit (in theory at least), so I’ll be able to swap out parts if not the whole thing.
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On the oil pump, don't use any sealer. none, nada, zilch. Once you pick out the gasket and get the clearances where you want it, match port the gasket to make sure none of the material is in the way of the ports, then soak it with oil so it swells a little. After a minute or three torque the filter adapter down. If both surfaces are boogar and scratch free, there will be no leaks.
When the scanmaster fades out what is the DC voltage on the line? An overcharging event can shut down electronics too. You might be able to test the scanmaster by powering it up in another car. I can't recall what it does after it doesn't see a data signal. It might stay on enough to see if it flakes out.
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thought I told him not to use sealer on it...but, I figured it was too late and he was happy so.... :)
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Sorry Steve, I hate that it seems like I ignored your advice, but I read it as saying to not use silicone in particular... but my impression was that gasket adhesive (gaskacinch) was OK bc a small amount would have less (negligible?) impact on clearances. Judging by the side of the gasket that is visible after I was finished, there wan't anything major oozing out, which happens when I use silicone.
Earl, thanks for the advice as always. My first attempt at sealing that oil pump was done using the method you describe. I couldn't find the reason why it failed, so I tried the different approach. I just wonder if my pump cover is a little out of spec or something, because judging by the oil buildup on the intercooler bracket, I think it is likely that it was leaking from the same spot before I tore it down. Maybe that high spot that I polished down was at fault, but I was more comfortable using gasket adhesive in case it wasn't.
Am I right though that the end game is good oil pressure (and a clean driveway)? Mine's like 75 cold and I didn't see it drop much yesterday. Or am I missing whole point?
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Long as it has good oil pressure on a hot day after a few full throttle blasts, it is okay
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Maybe that high spot that I polished down was at fault, but I was more comfortable using gasket adhesive in case it wasn't.
If you hand lapped the filter adapter, pay close attention to the ring of material outside of the ovaled outlet hole. If the sandpaper curls up ANY it will raduis that section and could possible cause a leak. That section of gasket holds back full pump outlet pressure so it really needs to be flat and square. What I like to do is after I make my figure 8's, I drag the cover in a straight line for about 2~3 inches (with that outlet port on the trailing side). If you're lapping correctly, that thin ring will have the parallel lines on it. If it's low or radiused, the anomaly will light up like a chrimmus tree.
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Thanks Earl and Steve,
I did hand lap the filter adapter before, but as it turns out that wasn't where the high spot was and I believe that the outlet hole has always sealed. The high spot I was referring to was on the timing cover itself, right in the middle of where the leak was (where the arrow is in the picture a few posts back). I never touched the cover itself for fear of ruining the clearance. I found the "defect" with layout dye and it felt like maybe a 1/32" diameter raised spot, I would have thought that it was some leftover gasket, but I had blasted that cover and the color was uniformly aluminum looking. With 400 grit paper I was able to gingerly polish it down with my finger.
Either way, I'll keep an eye on the oil pressure so if I do have a further issue I'll know where to look.
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that area with the arrow is the highest pressure point on the engine. That rectangle block is where the pressure is exiting the pump before it hit's any relief valving. I know first hand how impossible it is to measure high and low spots by feel but anythigng near 1/32" might as well be a mile. When you're dealing with a gasket that's only 6~8 thou thick, you just can't fill in stuff like that.
I hate to say it but pulling that cover and either spending lots of time flattening and hand lapping gears might be in your near future. (or getting a different cover and starting over). Do you have lots of time porting and setting up that cover or is there no emotional attachment?
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Thanks Earl
The picture below is a better description of what I sanded, don't pay too much attention to the scale, and I'm really not sure of the size or shape of whatever it was. I just know it was in that approximate position and that you could feel it and it was close to the edge. Maybe the best description is a burr, and I chamfered the edge until I didn't feel it anymore. I stole this picture from another site so hopefully whoever owns the copyright doesn't see this!
I'm guessing labeled it 1/32" wide but it was probably smaller, it was so small that I couldn't see it protruding, just feel it. I'm sure it wasn't pushed out that far, maybe more like ten or twenty thou?? It was sharp and sanded fast. I doubt in a way it was really the issue but it was the only thing I could find.
So you think it'll eventually leak? I'm not attached to it by any means, if it would I'd sure be open to replacing it.
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I'm laying 2 feet from where that picture was taken. :)
On that section knock it down below flush. It's probably a booger sticking up where it got banged at some time. It's pretty common for the outside of the machined surface to have high spots from impact. (also high spots on the threaded holes from the tap pulling up a burr too)
Just make sure everything is nice and flat around the gear pocket, the rectangle hole, and he hole my drill is stuck in. If you have a countersink set, put a healthy bevel on the 6 holes the bolts go through. That'll spread the clamping load out and might help you make the difference between leaking and not leaking.
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Thanks earl, that spot could have been a mark from me prying on it too. I remember it took me awhile to figure out the "hidden" screws behind the oil filter adapter :icon_smile: [size=78%]At any rate, if it starts leaking again or my oil pressure is not what it seems to be now, I'll have some more good information to go with the net time I remove that cover.[/size]
In the mean time, I worked on my Powermaster yesterday and found the fuse was blown. I replaced it to see what would happen, but still no motor sounds or change in pedal whatsoever. The pump motor (and fuse) itself was warm to the touch after leaving the ignition on for a few minutes, so I think that is likely the problem.
I have another working PM assembly (in theory), so my options are to either swap the motor out or the whole PM assembly. I'm leaning towards replacing the whole unit as I can clean it and wind up with fresh brake fluid. Any thoughts?
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sounds like the motor is stuck, I'd swap it out but tap it with wrench for fun, probably starts up
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Thanks,
I just went out there and beat on it some but it still didn't do anything. I could make it click by removing and re-installing the pressure switch connection, but that was it.
I have to admit that I have a tender spot in my heart for cars that require some sort of "pre-starting" ritual, and that's ok for things like the starter or the radio or whatever. Heck, I tried to convince my wife how nice it was to have a good security system for our excursion, as I showed her how to jump the relay under the hood with a big crescent wrench. But even I am not convinced that having a power brake system that requires a few firm whacks before it starts working properly is a good idea :) So I think I'll switch it out when I get back like you suggested.
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I had one that whenever I popped the hood to troubleshoot it would unstick and run.
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I was able to swap out my Powermaster motor with another and the good news is that I now have pump noises under the hood and power brakes! :icon_smile: The bad news is that even after bleeding the accumulator, I I couldn't keep the brake light from coming on. :(
I swapped out the accumulator ball for another and then the brake light would turn off, but the motor would still turn on every single brake application. I assume this is not normal, I've read that the motor should come on every 3rd application of the brakes. I kept on bleeding the accumulator, but as I proceeded I noticed the accumulator reservoir level was continually decreasing at the same rate the rear DS reservoir was filling. There were also bubbles, similar to the accumulator reservoir in the ds rear, So it looks to me like fluid is escaping from one side to the other (See Below).... the MC seal is leaking and badly. Time for a seal kit I suppose. I just can't catch a break with my PM, everything seems to have been bad, except for the pressure switch I guess!
I can see now why everyone converts these things to Vac or HB systems. Let me know if you think my diagnosis is correct.
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This is a brand new accumulator? How long does it stay pumped up without touching the brakes?
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Yes - is this a know-good accumulator? Sounds to me like the ones you are using are weak.
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thanks for the input,
It wasn't a new accumulator, I bought it off a board where it was advertised as a good used unit. I will say that swapping it in made a difference compared to my old unit for sure. Is there any way to check it to make sure? That is really the only "known good" unit that I have available.
The reason that I think the MC is bad is because it seems to me that fluid seems to be transferring from the accumulator circuit (high pressure side I think) to the rear brake circuit. Which is why that chamber filled up (I originally had it probably 1/4 full) and why bubbles, similar to the PS chamber :chin: I didn't think there was any way for this to happen unless the seal in the MC was bad. Is this bad reasoning?
Also I changed brake fluid and wiped out the reservoir until it was clean. The new fluid almost immediately turned the blacker color as can be seen in the picture. I was thinking this might also indicate bad rubber in the MC.
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The only way I know of to test accumulators is a very expensive machine - it takes a lot of PSI to pressurize them.
Sounds like it's time to either replace the unit entirely, with a new accumulator (if still available) or change to hybroboost/vacuum.
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The only things the accumulator does is stop the motor from cycling too often (overheat) and give you some stopping assistance if the motor dies.
FWIW- not recommended but I've gone a 1000 miles with the motor cycling once a minute.
An "unsafe" test would be -Unplug the motor and and hit the brakes from speed to see how much stop you get.
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I've decided to put the powermaster on the back burner until I can get the car out for its first test drive (at least around the block), then I'll know where i stand a little better. I will make sure the MC isn't blowing fluid through an internal seal before dumping more money into another accumulator. I have a separate PM MC that I will try to get seals for in the mean time.
For the test drive, I think the only things I need to do are to round up some tires, and rig up the exhaust temporarily. Somehow the exhaust was snaped at the welds directly after the cat, so it needs to be re-welded. I don't have a mig welder down here but a guy I work with is supposedly getting one for christmas :player:
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I realize that it's been a long time since I updated this thread, but most of my work has been both uninteresting and completed at my normal sub-glacial pace. So here is what I've done in the last half year or so.
I was able to round up a welder and weld up the exhaust, I fabricated a couple of brackets and re-welded the gutted cat. I broke a rusty muffler flange, so I re-welded that as well (really the exhaust behind the cat at least should be replaced). I rounded up some cheap tires and had them mounted on the rims that I hate, I'd like to find some stockers and will get better tires then.
It took a few months for me to find a cheap rear heated window, but I finally rounded one up for 50 bucks and installed it a few weeks ago. That was after buying a 4 door unit (ooops), but at least it was only 30. I don't know how much I saved doing it myself, but I just don't trust the "pros" because my windshields have always leaked after being installed and I wound up doing it over myself.
Finally I installed some danko fillers. Yes they are a little rough, and probably don't fit perfectly, but they were just right for my car and budget!
I'm sure there are a few other things that I have forgotten about, but that's the bulk of it. I haven't worked out all the electrical gremlins yet, but I think I am on the right track. Thanks to everyone for helping out, pictures of the car in its current state (wo the windshield) are attached below.
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I'll try to tie up some loose ends from before. I have taken the car out a only a few times and have been able to eliminate a couple of previous issues, namely the scanmaster display fading and powermaster warning light.
I bled my PM a few more times and now the brake light doesn't come on at all when driving. It takes probably 5-10 second to for the pump to turn off after emptying the accumulator. I'm still not convinced my unit is 100%, so I've been working on rebuilding another unit, but still need to round up a power piston assembly.
After I properly wired up the SM by soldering the connectors and using connectors etc. , the LED display no longer faded at increased RPM. However, whenever the car would get up to operating temperature, the SM screen went blank. Just before it went blank I noticed that at least the coolant temperature readings went crazy, oscillating from -40 to 30 degrees (the ambient temps were in the 90s which it initially read correctly). All of the above issues were resolved by replacing the ECM.
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When driving the car I still have a couple of issues that I think I am on the right track to fixing.
I am trying to be conservative until things are 100%, so I have adjusted the wastegate to its longest length and have resisted the urge to flog the car. Overall, I am happy with the way it runs other than the issues that I'll discuss below. It is tight by my standards, stops well and is fun to drive and comfortable. The motor seems great and I get 45-50 psi of oil pressure hot and the car runs at 185 deg going 45 mph in 90 degree weather. Yeah the windows roll slow and some stuff doesn't work right etc, but I'm happy with it even though it's just a N/A 3.8 so far.
I have two issues remaining that I could use some advice on.
1:
The fan has yet to turn on. At idle the temp has risen up to about 200 deg and it still didn't engage the fan. I'm going to work on this tomorrow so any wisdom would be helpful.
2.
When hot the car sputters. Not like a miss on 1 cylinder by like somebody just turned the ignition off, and then right back on.Then, the Car throws a code 41 and about the same time it starts running much better.
Now, I think that I can deal with #1, but let me know any experiences.
I also think that number 2 is a bad cam sensor. Not only because of the code, but also because it starts running better after the code (batch mode?) pops up, and the fact that when I shut it down how it won't start (no spark, no fuel) until it cools down again. My guess is an intermittent fault with the cam sensor when warm, and then no signal when it gets completely up to temp. Then the computer goes to batch mode making it run better, but won't start back up bc no signal until it cools again. Let me know if I need to do any more troubleshootin g because I'm about ready to order a new cap I'm so convinced that's the problem.
As always thanks in advance.
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Sounds like you are getting there!
#1...sounds like the car still has a factory chip in it. Factory does not turn the fan on to low speed until the temperature is about 204 degs F unless the the AC is turned on. AC has to be charged-and then it kicks into high speed.
#2 sounds like you are right. I assume that if you start the car, unplug the cam sensor, that it kicks into batch mode and runs better?
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Thanks!
In regard to the fan issue #1, I actually have a TT chip in it, I noticed the other day that it has a handwritten description that says, "stock 16-18 psi boost" on it, or similar. I think I remember the fan kicking on once awhile ago before I was driving it actually. I'm going to be messing with this today.
To clarify the breaking up / no start problems of issue #2, I think we can say that it happens in the 3 phases below:
Phase A; Cold. Starts and runs fine, no issues.
Phase B; Warm (Initially up to operating temps or a little after) . Starts to break up off idle, feels like someone turns key off and back on very quickly. Fuel pressure is constant (I have a gauge). Will start when shut off. I drove the car for about 3 miles before it transitioned to Phase C.
Phase C; "Hot". SES light illuminates, scanmaster reads code 41. Car no longer breaks up. Will not start if I shut it off although fuel pressure is still about 43 psi. No spark on a test plug when cranking and I didn't hear injectors pulsing or smell fuel. After setting for about 45 minutes it fired right up.
I never did try to unplug the cam sensor as you mentioned. If I have the car out today I'll try it when the car is running in Phase B to see what happens.
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http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fan.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fan.htm)
TT normally kicks the fan on at 167 degs F
Just swap the high and low speed relays as a starter (two smaller relays)
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Thanks Steve! I switched the two relays around and the fan kicked on, so thanks for the suggestion. I let it idle and it didn't heat up past 185...
The only problem now is that I have the stock thermostat in so now the fan doesn't turn off at all. I guess I either need to change the tstat or get another chip so it won't run constantly.
I didn't drive it much today, so I still wasn't able to remove the cam sensor to see if the car ran better.
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don't remove it...just unplug it...probably what you meant LOL
Stock thermostat was 180 if I recall correctly
unless it is winter, it will probably run all the time anyway
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Yeah, I did mean unplug it. That would be interesting to see a cam sensor removed while running though :chin:
Ok I guess I shouldn't worry about the thermostat then.
Thanks for all your help.
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Good news!
I replaced the cam sensor cap today with a new, stock looking, one from tomco-inc.com and it solved all my issues as we suspected. Now the car starts hot or cold and didn't cut out a single time today. I drove it probably 10- 20 miles which is more than I've driven it during all previous excursions. The motor really runs (what I consider) well now. A tiny bit rough at idle but smooths out really nicely cruising around. The lowest oil pressure, hot at idle, was above 30 psi. It was hot today, 100 deg, but the cooling system seemed up to the task. One time after idling for a long time it did got as hot as 200, but then it dipped back down to 185 when I got up to speed. I'm definitely happy with it!
Some bad:
I am going to have to do something with that powermaster. You can watch the accumulator section of the MC filling after you shut the ignition off. You can actually hear a high pressure hydraulic fluid sound (like releasing a floor jack) coming from the booster side of the MC. The pump will cycle every minute or so if you don't use the brakes. At least the light isn't illuminating.. .
It wound up taking me most of the day in 100 deg heat to replace the headlights, I'll leave the majority of this for the bitch and moan section.
I'd like to maybe start throwing a little bit of boost at it at this point. Maybe start at 5 and work up to 10 psi, but no more. Maybe it's not a good idea because I don't have my hotwire installed yet and don't know the status of the fuel pump other then it will make at least 43 psi. I do have an internal fuel gauge and scanmaster of course, so I won't be flying blind. Let me know if and how I should proceed... I'll be trying to read up on those scanmaster numbers again to make sure I'm good in the meantime.
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hard to get less than 12 psi as that is approximately the weakest spring setting...what you have to watch out for is if the wastegate solenoid is working, or not...can be bad if it is stuck open. I would first set the waste gate tension to about 1/10" and run a hose directly from the wastegate actuator to the port on the compressor housing of the turbo.
This eliminates the boost control plumbing/solenoid and should give you about 12 psi of boost..maybe a bit less. I am assuming you have a vacuum/boost gauge installed so you can watch the boost. Main thing is to watch the scanmaster for timing retard and let off if you see any. this amount of boost will not do much harm for a brief period if you do have any timing retard....Be sure your motor mounts are in good condition because a bad mount will allow the engine to lurch over and you will get a bunch of timing retard for a moment if this happens because the knock sensor "hears" the engine shift and bang the downpipe on the control arm or firewall.
take it up into third gear about 60 and ease down on gas to try to eliminate the potential false knock warning and watch the scanmaster timing retard and your boost gauge...
Good news on the cam sensor!
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Somehow I've managed to get 0 psi boost to this point... At least that is what my 3 gauges are telling me (autometer, factory, and seat of pants) :icon_smile: It just feels like an NA v6. The gauge is brand new and I've tested it with compressed air from the fitting under the hood. Unfortunately it doesn't measure vacuum (0-60 psi full sweep), but I've never seen the factory "gauge" go higher than the 1 atm position, and it will read vacuum.
I have been wondering if something else was wrong, but I had my adjustable wastegate link (If that is what its called) adjusted all the way out, so I thought maybe 0 boost was normal. Oh, also I have removed a bolt from the turbine housing (bolt broke and haven't replaced yet), you can hear and feel exhaust coming out the hole. In fact the only real way I have been aware of a turbo under the hood was a faint turbo whine under acceleration.
I don't remember my turbo (stock) having a removable spring, I thought the diaphragm looked sealed. Am I wrong?
When you say to run a hose directly from the wastegate actuator to the port on the compressor housing of the turbo, would this be the same thing as plugging the hose that goes to the wastegate solenoid? If so I can try that tomorrow and see what happens.
I've updated my signature to reflect the current state of the car.
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Plugging it should work, too.
Is the rod coming out of the actuator adjustable-you can disconnect it from the wastegate and make the rod longer or shorter by screwing it in or out of a sleeve? Original factory ones were not adjustable and you had to modify them. Like so http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/images/Adj_wastegate.JPG (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/images/Adj_wastegate.JPG)
If you have any exhaust leaks or turbo leaks, you will not get much, if any, boost
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Just how did you communicate with Tomco?
they seem to be stuck in the 70's
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Yep, the rod is adjustable and functionally similar to the hyperlink you posted.
I'll try to replace that bolt, shorten the rod some and block off the wastegate actuator tomorrow and see what happens.
Oh yeah another question, did the stock transmissions slide into gear from the factory (like a trans from the seventies)? Mine feels to me like it has a shift kit.
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Just how did you communicate with Tomco?
they seem to be stuck in the 70's
Yeah, their website seems like it's from the 70's too!
I tried to order from the website but gave up and I called the number on their website and got ahold of a couple people. After that it was great.
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Put an 1/8" tension on the rod..that is approximately what the factory used...in other words, you have to pull the rod about an 1/8" to slip it over the wastegate arm.
The actuator is the can mounted on the turbo. The wastegate solenoid that controls the boost is on the valve cover. Pull the hose off the solenoid and plug the end of the hose.
The tranny should shift cleanly without any slip. Maybe your tv cable needs to be adjusted? http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/tvcable.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/tvcable.htm)
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Ok, tomorrow this is the plan as I understand it.
To put wastegate at the factory location:
1: Disconnect the adjustable actuator rod.
2: Pull wastegate arm to the closed postition (as far to the driver's side as it will go)
3: Adjust the rod so that eyelet lines up about 1/8" to the driver's side of the wastegate arm.
4: Pull the rod toward PS until it engages on the wastegate arm and reinstall snap ring.
To bypass wastegate solenoid insuring no overboost:
1: remove and plug vacuum hose from wastegate solenoid on PS valve cover.
I'll reserve the TV adjustment for another time I think.
Do I have it right?
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the wastegate actuator rod is spring loaded. When you remove it from the wastegate arm, it will automatically be retracted as far as it will go by the spring inside. Adjust the length so it has to be pulled out of the retracted position by 1/8" to be able to get it over the wastegate arm when the arm is pushed back toward the actuator can....that way, you will have about 12 psi of spring force holding the wastegate puck closed. It will take some muscle to pull the rod out of the actuator to get it over the arm.
When the car makes boost, the boost pushes against a diaphragm on the other end of the spring in the can and forces the rod further out so that the puck can open and bypass exhaust.
Any exhaust leak is bypassing the turbine so you don't make boost, or not much boost
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I test drove the car today with the wastgate rod adjusted as described previously and the wastegate solenoid vacuum tube plugged. I also replaced the missing bolt in the turbo. As expected I finally have some boost or a little more than expected.
I couldn't resist and accelerated a little before I hit the highway, closely watching the boost gauge. The needle quickly went past 10 psi and I let off the gas because it seemed like it would only go higher. It felt much quicker then the car I drove the day before of course.
I hit the highway, accelerated to about 60 and hit it, I was looking at the boost gauge and the boost went past 10 and I let off. I did this a few more times, noticing zero knock on the scanmaster each time. The final time the gauge flew past 15 psi when I let off quickly. It built up boost so quickly I really let it get higher than I would have liked (17-18psi), but still no retard on the scanmaster when I hit the recall button. All this time I wasn't paying attention to the fuel pressure gauge. So since I had a feel for what the boost was doing, I did a pull enough to get the boost up past 10 psi. I noticed the fuel pressure gauge hit about 51 or 52 psi, then hit a brick wall and started decreasing. Knowing this I gave it up for the day and likely won't test my luck again until I get the hotwire and a fuel pump installed.
Worse yet
When I was in some traffic I smelled an electrical burning smell. I immediately headed for home but before I got there my brake light flashed on. Sure enough I had no brake assist after that point. I bet that internal leak got worse and the pump running continuously melted down.
So now I'm dead in the water. I'll have to figure out what to do next.
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Sounds like it has a heavy duty actuator on it. Can you see the number on the actuator can? Should be a tag on it.
Convert to vacuum brakes.
Sounds like the fuel pump is weak. At least you know it will run!
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Yeah, I'm just glad that I listened to you and others and had the gauges installed. That was a recipe for disaster! Fun while it lasted though.
I just got back in from pulling off the powermaster and am not going back out tonight, so I'll have to get back with you when I get a chance to read the number. There is a tag on it with a bar code I think.
That's exactly what I am going to do do now (convert to vacuum). Those PMs are neat devices and I still like them, but there are too many things that can go wrong. Anyone have an NA brake pedal?
Finally, I have a sneaking suspicion that my transmission has an NA converter in it. The reason I think so is because I have never driven a car with anything but a stock converter, and this on feels no different... the car is kind of a slug off the line. I tried to brake torque it once and couldn't really build any boost whatsoever. I didn't notice what RPM it stalled at on the SM, and obviously I won't be brake torquing again anytime soon, is there a way to tell by looking at the converter???
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no...brake torquing will not hurt anything unless you hold it for a few minutes and let it get hot. Just watch the rpm and note when it stops increasing, or when the car tries to move against the brakes.
I think the stock converters were about 1700 rpm and the turbo converters were about 2200 rpm
I believe either Dave is missing or I put a picture on here showing where to drill the hole in the pm pedal for use with vacuum brakes.
You have made a lot of progress with the car.
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NA convertor in my car when purchased...st alled at 1700. Had 7's embossed around the circumference of the convertor.
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here is the thread http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4054.msg59630#msg59630 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4054.msg59630#msg59630)
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I think I found out why the boost went higher than expected yesterday. I didn't tie wrap the plug that I used to block the vacuum line, and it blew off.
Today, to make sure the actuator was OK and to try to determine the pressure it opened, I pulled it out and put pressure to it with a mityvac. It has a hole in the diaphragm as well. I'll have to keep an eye out for one of those as well I guess.
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smh...yeah, that will do it every time! LOL
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the earliest form of boost control was to pull the hose off and stick an aquarium valve in the end and crack it further open until we got the boost we wanted
Some left it connected but spliced a tee valve in the line and cracked it open a bit-made for a finer adjustment
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Funny!
I think I'm going to go with a hydroboost conversion this weekend. I can see no disadvantage other than the price?
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probably more reliable than a powermaster... maybe not as reliable as a vacuum system? Not sure how the pressure compares to a pm but I guess similar. TB3 here did one....don't know if he every drove it or just parks it beside the four cars worth of spare parts he accumulated.
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Hydroboost for the WIN! At least on my car.
http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4228.0 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4228.0)
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It's official, I'm going with the hydroboost. the more I read about it the more I liked it. Everyone who has one really seems to like them. Plus I like the challenge. Better yet, I was able to pull some emergency funds because it's a "safety" item :)
Next on deck is a fuel pump. I'd like to buy a Walboro, but I want the real USA made version and not the china rip-off.
I think this might be what I get:
http://fullthrottlespeed.com/customkititems.asp+kc+834GMHP+eq+ (http://fullthrottlespeed.com/customkititems.asp+kc+834GMHP+eq+)
Here's the deal. I have to get the car back to Ohio here in a few weeks... and that's where the hotwire kit is. I'd rather have a new pump in there if I'm going to drive it the 800 miles. Would it be allright to have a new pump without a hotwire kit for the kit, or should I just leave the current pump in?
I might have it shipped too, I know it's a bit risky. I'm not sure.
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no problem driving it...
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I've got Jacks SS hanger and 255 pump sitting in my tank...no KR all the way up to 28 PSI with alky or race gas.
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It took me about 8 hours and approximately 300 bucks to convert over to hydroboost. I got everything special order from Autozone except the T fitting and home depot only had a nylon one(I'll install a brass fitting when I get a chance). I highly recommend TexasT's write-up ([size=0px]http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4228.0 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4228.0)[/size][/color]) which I used exclusively.
I wound up still having problems, like a lot of other people, re-installing the HB eyelet to the pedal. Maybe I missed it in the write-ups, but I found that the key is to not even engage the HB into the bolt holes. I had a helper hold the HB unit offset to the left (DS) so that there was about a 1/4" of space between the HB studs and holes. Then inside the car I mashed the brake to the floor, grabbed the rod and pulled with pliers... and the eyelet easily slipped over the pin.
The other problem I had was breaking loose the PS line fitting on the steering box. I tried everything short of heating it (PB blaster, hitting w. hammer, working the line etc.) and eventually I stripped the nut with a flare wrench. My last course of action was to snap the line so I could get a 6 point socket on it, and that worked. The whole process cost me probably another 2 hours or so.
BTW, I should add this to my BW& M thread because I sprayed that same fitting when I pulled the motor, and sprayed it again a couple times recently letting it set for weeks. So its basically had PB blaster on it for years and it still didn't work. I hated to break the PS line, but I don't think I'll ever go back to the PM so hopefully it's no big deal.
Overall it was a good experience and if I had it to do over I might be able to do it in 4 or 5 hours, so it really wasn't too bad. The brakes themselves are very good now, and at least I have something I can rely on if I decide to drive it back to Ohio soon.
Here are the pictures of the HB:
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Good job!
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Thanks!
I ordered that WB 340 from full throttle today, so hopefully I'll have it to install next Saturday. I'll try to save some money and reuse my sending unit, which works well, for now.
I think I'm in the market for a D5 torque converter. When I had the car out today I held the brakes and floored it and my motor stalls at 1400 rpm according to SM. When I get some time I'll try to remove the cover and see what the TC says.
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Glad my ramblings were helpful. Yeah, wrastlin that pedal under the dash was the hardest part for me. I took the pedal back off to get the eye in the pedal. Great they are working for you.
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Thanks!
I ordered that WB 340 from full throttle today, so hopefully I'll have it to install next Saturday. I'll try to save some money and reuse my sending unit, which works well, for now.
I think I'm in the market for a D5 torque converter. When I had the car out today I held the brakes and floored it and my motor stalls at 1400 rpm according to SM. When I get some time I'll try to remove the cover and see what the TC says.
yep, sounds like a converter is in your future :)
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I have a D5 I will sell.. Cheap. I think one of the converter bolt holes is damaged. Bought it on TB.com, never installed it. I have no idea where it will stall...
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You had me at Cheap :icon_lol: , I'm interested. Do you know the history of it, etc? I'll take a chance on the stall as long it's in good shape.
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You had me at Cheap :icon_lol: , I'm interested. Do you know the history of it, etc? I'll take a chance on the stall as long it's in good shape.
I may be able to find the thread on it. Let me see.
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I think I bought it 07/2011 from 49-blues on TB.com.
I am pretty sure it's him, from this post:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/extra-stuff-for-sale.351677/ (http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/extra-stuff-for-sale.351677/)
I don't have the TB.com PMs - seems TB.com lost all prior to 08/2011
I did find my Paypal invoice - notes from that.
"Payment for Stock D5 Converter: Works fine. $50 + 36 shipping. "
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Sounds good super six, that's what I'm looking for. Let me ask you though, do you think a heli-coil will fix the damaged bolt hole?
Let me know how much you want for it, maybe we can work something out.
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Sounds good super six, that's what I'm looking for. Let me ask you though, do you think a heli-coil will fix the damaged bolt hole?
Let me know how much you want for it, maybe we can work something out.
It may just need rethreaded - not sure. I will pull it out of the box and take some pics tomorrow.
THanks
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Thanks and take your time. I don't think i'm going to do anything with the converter until I'm back in Ohio anyway, so I really can't use it until maybe early November at the earliest.
This weekend the WB 340 is going in, hopefully that will fix my fuel pressure issues and will be the last piece of the puzzle before I consider driving it back.
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OK. It's not going anywhere.. Let me know.
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Thanks SS, I'll let you know.
Good news, the fuel pump is in now and it looks like my fuel pressure issues have been solved. The fuel pressure looks like it increases at least 1 / 1 with boost pressure, or maybe a little more. It's kind of hard to look at both gauges simultaneously, I can see how a PL would be nice (I have one now, not installed yet).
Once I had proper fuel pressure, I re-installed the vacuum hose to the stock waste gate solenoid hoping for a bit more boost than the 10-11 I was getting by bypassing the solenoid. When I re-connected the solenoid and went WOT, my boost spiked up to about 14 psi and then settled down to 12 or so. I don't remember having that spike before switching back those vacuum tubes, does this sound like the solenoid is working properly?
Am I better off just getting rid of the stock waste gate solenoid altogether and trying to adjust boost levels with my adjustable waste gate rod? I might play with the car to try and raise the boost to 15 or 16 psi (I am running 93). Or does the stock solenoid do more than I think it does? Does the computer (I have a TT chip) reduce boost with it if it senses knock?
Thanks.
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I would guess the solenoid is not working...It serves as an electronic bleeder. The more it is open (larger duty cycle), the higher the boost. If it stays closed, then the boost will be basically controlled by the spring pressure in the actuator. Sounds like the solenoid is not opening to me.
Be sure the plumbing is installed correctly. the straight side of the "Y" goes to the compressor port. the offset leg with the restrictor in it goes to the actuator.
using the wastegate rod to control the boost tends to slow down the boost ramp up so I would suggest using one of the manual controllers to set the boost with because they keep the boost off the actuator diaphragm until the desired level is reached. this prevents the gate from creeping open and bypassing boost before the set level is reached. Or you could stick an aquarium valve in the end of the hose that went to the solenoid if you like to live dangerously and hope it does not adjust itself from vibration :D
The factory chip apparently killed some of the boost when timing retard became very high. I don't know if the TT does such, or not. It was not as crucial when we were only running 12-14 psi of boost as it becomes when we are running 17 psi or above.
I built my own manual controllers ala http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm (http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm) but I think the ones sold by RJC Racing, etc. have springs better suited for the purpose
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Thanks Steve.
I checked and I did have the solenoid hooked up properly, so I guess the solenoid isn't working properly. Right now, I have more time than money on my hands, so I decided to take the homemade rout.
I ordered the parts you recommended at [size=0px]http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm (http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm) [/size][/color][/size] from Grainger to make my own controller. I followed the instructions on assembling it, except for the part about beating the barb into the adjustable check valve with a hammer.[size=0px]
I wonder if the valve I received had a smaller hole than some others that would allow a "press" fit with the barb. The hole was around 3/16" I think, whereas the barb OD was more like 0.280", I know I would have destroyed that 90 deg barb trying to press fit it. Anyway, I was able to drill and tap the valve and 90* barbed fitting for 5/16" 18 threads, so mine now screws together instead of being a press fit. The barb was below the minimum OD, so the threads aren't exactly nominal, but it still tightened down fine.
I played with the car today and was trying to work the boost up to the point that I saw some KR on the scanmaster. With the tight converter, the car really doesn't pull until 15-20 mph, but as the boost builds to those higher pressures, the car comes to life. At 25-30 mph, I could hear the tires beginning to break loose.
I worked the car past 15 psi and finally wound up making 18-19 psi of boost according to my gauge. The scanmaster still said 0 KR, I hit the recall button several times to make sure after each run. I should be OK because I replaced the knock sensor when I did the motor and torqued it to spec... and it is plugged in. But I'd like to test it to make sure I don't have any surprises. I've read that you can bang on the block to test for knock, is this the best method?
Maybe I need to get an alchy kit to insure i have no knock? Plus it's a safety item for the engine so I should be able to get funding!
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Long ago, when I made a couple of them, I sweated (soldered) copper tubing in instead of using the barb. Your way sounds better.
You should be able to run 17-18 psi. Might have to take a degree or two of timing of when you hit 18 psi.
Don't need alky unless you want more boost. If 17 feels good, wait til you try 25. . I would go for a converter first
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As much as I'd like to do the converter right now, that would be something I'd much rather do on a lift. Also, I should really focus on setting the car up for highway mpg, rather than on performance for now. It's just not very fun to think in those terms :( , especially since right now the 1 month before we have to get out of Savannah seems like an eternity.
Today I might try to whack on my block and see if I can get the SM to retard the timing. I might also pull a plug or two to make sure that the motor is happy at those higher (for me) boost levels. Maybe if all is well I'll take it out and have a little more fun :rock: with it before changing my focus.
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I have had limited luck testing the knock sensor tapping the block.
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I took out spark plugs #1, 4 and 5 today and they did not show any signs of "peppering". So it looks like I was able to get away with the 18-19 psi boost I ran yesterday. Also, I wasn't able to test it so my knock sensor still may or may not be functioning correctly, I'll try banging around some other time unless someone else knows a better way to check. Regardless, I chickened out and lowered the boost some, I'm kind of trying for maybe 15-16 for now.
Here are a couple of photos of the #4 spark plug which is the cylinder that was blown and I "repaired". I did a WOT blast at the 18-19 psi then drove home about 1/8 mile and shut the car down. The spark plugs from the other 2 cylinders looked basically identical to the pictures below.
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Looks good to me. I would set the boost to 17 psi and leave it there. If required, set the fueling at the top of third gear using the chip programming so you are seeing about 790 mv on the O2s
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The good news is I trailered the car back to Ohio without any incident. The "good" news is that I took the car out for one last ride and I think I killed the transmission,
Under acceleration the transmission shifted from 1 to 2 and basically made some sort of noise and then nothing... the engine just reved up and now I have no forward gears and no reverse.
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Damn, at least not in the middle of nowhere
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Ah... The old park and 6 neutrals . Probably time for a billet shaft forward drum to prevent it from happening again.
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/IMG_20110716_202024.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/IMG_20110716_202024.jpg.html)
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Yes! Park and six neutrals!
Really,even though it still feels like I have something to complain about , that was about the most ideal time to break something:
At the end of the season when the transmission was going to have to come out anyway, and after I got it home and unloaded from the trailer. I guess I got the better of Murphy and his stupid law on that deal!
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Hey guys, sorry for not updating this post or really coming around for awhile. I've been huddled up in Ohio for the winter and haven't had the net the whole time. Since it's spring time I started working on the car again. Pulled the trans and it as it turns out my torque converter was stripped out at the input shaft. Very lucky!
I have the trans out now and halfway apart so I'm looking for advice on how to proceed now that I found the problem. I've started another thread entitled Repair or Rebuild Stock Transmission (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?board=10.0) that's a lot more detailed, so if you don't mind I hope we can continue the discussion there. I'm looking forward to some more good advice.
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Just to update this thread, I got the trans back in and have driven it now about 200 miles. It's currently kind of my DD, at least days without rain!
Fixing the stator shaft and getting another D5 converter made a huge difference. The car will now build boost at the line and breaks the tires loose at 5 psi. Wow what a difference off the line!
Also, I am running around 17 psi of boost now on 93. For the first time yesterday I got some knock retard 2.1* @ 726 mv while in 3rd gear wot. So looks like I have some tuning to do. Haven't seen any retard in low gear though. I'm going to add fuel as Steve suggested a couple of posts back and see what happens.
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Without reading the whole thread again, Eric's chip will be rich in the low gears and pretty close if not a touch lean on the top end, weather dependent. Remember that the WOT fuel setting on the chip controls fueling for the entire range, so you'll have to go back to the low gear fuel block and take some fuel out.
The most important piece to this tuning puzzle is to have the basics covered and know your goals. TPS voltage setting both idle and WOT, IAC working correctly, no vacuum leaks, properly working O2 sensor, fuel pressure at idle and rising with boost. Start with low boost and work your way up, no need to damage something you have work so much for
I'm no expert and I'm sure those with more experience can add more to this.
Glad to hear it's back on the streets!
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I have not found the chips to be lean on top end as they are often just a bit rich in third and fourth but not as much so as in one and two. The O2s were definitely showing lean so check your fuel pressure to be sure pressure is matching boost on a one to one basis...in other words, you should be seeing 60 psi at 17 psi. Double check your initial setting to be sure it is reading 43#. I always look at hot idle O2's immediately after coming to a stop after driving the car...not a minute later, but immediately upon pulling up to the stop sign or whatever. They should be very close to 800 mv assuming you have no air leaks.
The reason I emphasize the need for the O2 to be hot is that least week, I gave William A. the exact same instructions and he said his O2's were 600 or so....new O2 sensor and all....his interpretation of the above was to let the car idle until the coolant temp was 170...long sigh, smh.
Anyway, sometimes the gauges are off a couple of psi and I know the O2's should be around 800 so if they are low, I suspect the gauge if I cannot find an air leak....more than anyone wanted to know, I guess
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Agree with everything Steve says, save one thing. Depending on what boost you start your tuning with and what boost the chip was burned for, the chip will be be rich in high gears with stock levels of boost (12-13#'s) and start leaning the higher the boost gets.
Fuel pressure is the key. That's why the basics have to be covered and the engine acting appropriately before going forward with the tuning or damage may occur. It's a tedious process but well worth it.
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You are correct. For some reason, I thought he had a chip from Eric...with the factory chip, he needs to add some fuel pressure...and probably lower the boost a pound
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Just to clarify things a little I do have eric's chip, I think it's a TT 5.7 but not 100% sure because I don't have the documentation handy now. I was able to dig up an email that states that the chip is intended for a stock setup with 16- 18 psi boost. My injectors are 42 lb, so my sig is slightly off.
I am running the same setup that I worked up to 19 psi boost on my gauge last year, and I never had KR then under similar situation. I got scared and backed off the boost a little, shooting for the 17 or so when it showed on the SM, so something must have changed over winter? Also, it never showed any in the low gears, just one time on the highway in 3rd gear. I don't like my boost gauge, it goes to 60 psi so doesn't have great fidelity. Also I noticed that my boost spikes up and then settles back maybe 2-3 psi. Maybe it spiked more than the 17 psi? I am shooting for it to peak at 17 and settle to 15 or so.
The fuel pressure always shoots up to just above 60 under boost and is steady now with the new 340 pump, not like the old one. At idle fuel pressure was 41 with the vacuum tube hooked up, I think it would go up a couple when I removed the vac tube if I remember correctly. I can 2X check with tube off again but I bet it's close.
I'll have to double check the IAC and TPS values again to make sure nothing has changed, I haven't driven the car today. One thing that is a new development is that when the car is warm sometimes the engine will fire then immediately die. I've had to give it a tiny bit of gas to keep it running when it does this. Also during my drive yesterday under acceleration, one time the motor started to misfire and the SES light illuminated briefly. There were no MAL codes that I saw stored on the SM unless I was doing something wrong. I scrolled through almost immediately so I was surprised that nothing showed.
We had rain today so car is garaged, so I'll try to do what you guys suggest next time I have it out. Maybe Saturday.
Thanks
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My advice is to check the idle O2s immediately upon stopping after driving. If they are 780-800, then add three numbers of fuel in the wide open throttle 3/4 slot and remove three numbers in the 1/2 slot. See if that eliminates the retard and puts the O2s at wide open throttle to at least 760
If it is below 780-800 at idle, raise the fuel pressure about 2 psi and see what that does to it :)
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I'll do that next time I have it out.
Thanks a lot.
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OK, Idrove the car today and after it was warm it looked to me like o2s at idle ranged from 814 to 820.
Should I reset my iac? My numbers after the drive were
Af 06
L8 43
bat 13.5
Int 128
Bl 122
MPH 0
Clt 167
Ats 97
R 800
Tps .44
Iac 80
C c 119
Mal 0
Wonder if fixing the iac wil limprove my hard starting problems?
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Car was a bit rich at idle...
Were the IAC numbers taken in park with the AC off? If so, they are way high. there normally is about 1.5 threads emerging on the tip of the adjustment screw on the throttle lever side.
I kinda doubt it has anything to do with the hard starting. Is it hard to start all the time, or just after it has sat awhile?
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Yep park and ac off. Sometimes the car cranks then fires momentarily, then just dies . It won't. stay running unless I hold the gas a little, then it stays running normally.
I'll try to reset the iac tomorrow.
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When you turn the key to On, do you hear the fuel pump immediately run for a couple of seconds and then turn off? Does the car then show about 40 psi of fuel pressure or somewhere clsoe to that? before you actually crank the car, I mean.
That IAC may be bad....see if it responds to adjustment...b ut as I said above, the normal setting will have the tip of the screw showing about 1 1/2 threads
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Exactly 40 psi today at koeo today before cranking. Fired right up too, seems intermittent but more problematic when hot maybe. screw is 1.5 tthreads exposed so maybe I'll throw on an iac on if I can get one at store. it developed over winter so not likely to be adjustment issue I guess,.
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when hot is often an indication that an injector is leaking. Watch your fuel pressure decline after you turn the key off. If it drops suddenly, then I would suspect an injector in this case. It may puff some black smoke when it does start as well
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My.gauge turns off when car shuts down.however after I turned key on pump primes to forty and holds steady for. a minute or two until I got bored of looking. My experience of leaky injector or flooding is that car won't fire at all, whearas currently the car fires but doesn' stay running unless I hold the throttle down a little.
Also I just started the car and it fired perfectly and stayed running fine.when it. warmed up. my iac. was 32 .
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maybe look for a bad connection at the iac plug?
My cars have always started with a leaking injector with no problem but they would miss a bit and start to run better when the throttle was opened a bit...never had more than one injector leak, tho...a leaking injector will usually drop the pressure within five minutes or so
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What's the MAF at cold idle when you first fire it up?
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I'll have to check the cold maf number tommorow. I drove the car today and there wasn't any starting issues, idle iac read 20 when I looked. A little while later it. was like 60 or80, both readings were in park. I picked up a new iac and might throw it in.
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I checked afs at cold startup today and I saw a 14 then it held at 15 and then worked its way down from there.
I bought an iac and snapped it while installing. Not sure it even bottomed before snapping.
Had to remove the snapped bit with an easy out. In the mean time Icleaned the OEM iac and for now my starting issues have been solved.I haven't driven it that much so probably not really fixed.
I've driven the car some more to test it, keeping it under the speed where I saw the kr and low o2s and haven't seen any issues since. o2s are always more than 780 at wot and no retard. I haven't gone wot at highway speed which produced the kr before,, but I'm working up there gradually and making sure my o2s aren't lower than 780.Does this seem like a good strategy ? Also Ishould add that my fp is always solid .If I get time I'm installing the powerlogger..
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Go to the track...where it's SAFE...and make a balls out run with Erics chip on the default settings. Have a look at the PL log...and make your adjustments. Kills me watching guys piss gazzillions of dollars way on cool guy crap...but can't spend a couple of bucks on PL. Okay. I'll quit ranting. :)
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INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER INSTALL POWER LOGGER!
You're not completely in the dark since you have the scanmaster but having the power logger installed is like flying at night with night vision goggles. OWN THE DARKNESS!
Then make a run and record the run with the INSTALLED POWER LOGGER. After the run, upload the log here so all those smarter than me folks can analyze it for you. They really can help!
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Because the general consensus was slightly :icon_lol: in favor of me installing the pl I've had it since fall and kind of forgot, I fired up the car to back it outside and the stupid ses light was on!
So now I'm looking at a code 42 which as I remember was one of the codes I had before and solved with a new ecm awhile back.. I'm not sure what the best way to proceed is but I'm considering trying an ignition module. Id. have to get one from a part store and have heard they're hit or miss.
I've restarted it acouple times and it will fire and the ses light will go out when it does. Then the light will go on again after afew seconds. Haven't driven since the light illuminated but the final time the ignition did seem to cut out for a second once.
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In the old days, cars that had the Translator T installed often had this problem, but, I am pretty sure that you have the regular Translator that does not have the timing adjustment so...
Most of the time, it is the ignition module-particularly if you have an aftermarket module but before trying another module check the wiring as per the link for good connections.
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/code_42.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/code_42.htm)
If you have to get a module, the Standard brand is usually the most likely to work. Think it is the Wells that is almost always a pos.
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Steve...is it only the GM ignition modules that will work with an aftermarket tach?
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Brad, I am not 100% sure, but, I don't think they will. I know they won't work with vdo tachs, but, I don't think they will work on any of them. I say this because Caspers coil/module tester will not work on them because the aftermarket modules appear to use a different wave form signal
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Steve, once again your site proves invaluable,so thanks again for all your expertise. I got through the first position in the flow chart and I think I determined that, my ignition module was indeed bad. I probed the b4 terminal and found the resistance to ground to be 10,000 ohms. Then a checked the resistance to the I.M. wiring harness under the hood and it was two tenths of an ohm. Finally I measured resistance at the I.M. "A" terminal and it was off the meter high. So I'll be ordering a standard module ASAP. Once again thanks.
Tomorrow I may put in the PL if I get time.
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I made a mistake in my previous post. When I probed the b4 terminal I had the key off when it should have been on. When I turned the key on the resistance dropped below 200ohms. So as it turns out my ignition module might be good. I ordered a new standard l.m. off the internet and it sfill didnt. fix the problem.
So here is the deal, the diagnostic flow chart states that a test light connected to 12 v should not illuminate when connected to the ecm d5 terminal. With either of my ignition modules hooked up my light illuminates, maybe not too bright though. The light goes out when I disconnect the module, so the circuit isn't grounded. I've tested the wiring other ways. and so I'm convinced the wiring is good.
So I think that either both modules have failed exactly the same or the ecm went bad again and my test light is too touchy. It will illuminate a little if I touch the probe with one hand and ground my other hand . Any ideas?
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I installed aother ecm over the weekend with the powerlogger too and the code 42 went away. I drove the car a few miles and found the ignition breaking up some under boost which is a new development.
I pulled into the garage and the car stalled, restarted again, and that stupid check engine light came back on!!! Same code 42.
.
So in review, since installing the motor I've been through 3 ecms and 2 ignition modules and am still getting a code 42 . Both times when the ecm is replaced the code is temporarily fixed.
Anyone have any ideas?
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Did you take a really good look at the ign module cable connector? ECM connector?
You tried it without the powerlogger?
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The "A" Connector in my ignition terminal is a little suspect. It was recessed a little more than the adjacent connectors but I was able to adjust it back in line. I'm not sure how to decide it, but that blade that makes contact with the ignition module "A" male part, is a little mashed down. I can't find a way to bend it back.
It always seemed to make contact when I worked through the dagnostic chart. and the see light was constant, so I didn't think it was the problem. Another development last night was when I moved the car the see light was out.. so maybe I need to eliminate that terminal as a possibility. Does caspers sell that part?
The problem predates the powerlogger.
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ses out? You gotta another ecm to try?
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I moved the car again an
d the light was off. I'll try swapping back to the old ecm to Ser what happens.
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I started car up a couple more times and no ses. Then I swapped in the following sequence. starting the car up to see if the see illuminates.
old on
new. On, restarted off
old. On
new. Off
old. on
new. off
Don't know what it all means but I'm working my way up to guru level at swapping ecms and ignition modules alike :cheers:
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Sounds like the new one is bad
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That is the third one to go bad in the last 500 miles. Any ideas what causes this?
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same brand rebuilds or used ones?
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Different brand rebuilds
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I might take the ecm voltage chart and see if anything is out of whack plus do a voltage drop check between the ecm case and the negative battery terminal with the engine running
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also, check the wiring harness where it comes thru the firewall under the hood, just behind the driver's side valve cover. make sure it is not laying down the back end of the valve cover (or just behind the cover)in the area where the harness forks. There is a screw that emerges thru the firewall into the under hood area. I think it holds the gas pedal bracket in place. If the harness sags down and lays on the screw, it can cause a lot of different problems as it rubs into the wires.
Normally, the harness is held up by a stand off that goes over the rear valve cover stud. But it often breaks with age and allows the harness tor rub back and forth on the screw. the screw is not readily apparent unless you feel under the harness for it.
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Ok ill try what you suggest when I get a chance. It might be a couple of weeks unfortunately, I'm working out of state for awhile.
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Sorry for dropping the ball on this for almost a year. I've been working out of state and have been focused more on painting my uncles Malibu as posted in the "bodywork" section. I intend to get to this soon, I'm back in Ohio the next two weekends so we'll see what happens then.
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Lol
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Sorry for not posting sooner, but life kind of got in the way for the last couple of years. I was able to fix the problem and the car has been pretty much trouble free for the last year, so I am confident that the issues discussed previously have been solved. I think the car had 2 problems simultaneously, so that is why it was so maddening.
Problem #1, the "A" connector on my ignition module terminal was probably making intermittent/poor contact.
To fix the problem, I was able to slide the metal end on the wiring harness side "A" terminal out and bend it so it made better contact. There's a picture in this thread about 10 posts back that clearly shows what I'm talking about. After that, no code 42 SES light ever again and no more failing computers.
After problem #1 was fixed, I still had an intermittent issue where the ignition would cut out every so often. Sometimes it was when I hit a bump in the road, more often then not it was at WOT or close but less frequently it seemed random....It felt like someone just turned off the key for a split second. Then it would cut back on after a split second, often backfiring. I blew out my muffler one time this way. The SES light would come on for a split second, but there would be no code. This went on for a year or so, often it seemed to come and go. Because I had just bent the connector to "fix" the issue, I thought it might still be "Problem #1".So I eventually soldered in a new Casper's Ign. module connector from. Not long after that my car died in the driveway (no-start), which is when I found the real culprit.
Problem #2, the ignition module.
My first inclination was that my solder job was to blame, but it wasn't. I remember next going through the "no-start" tree and coming up with a bad ign module as a possibility. Even though I had already replaced this part, I bought a new AC/Delco (the previous was a "standard" part I think) unit and I've had no issues since.
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After all the work you put into it, you gotta be one of the foremost troubleshooter s around! I'm glad you came back and told us what you found. I bet it was nice to drive it fora a change :)
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Well without this site I wouldn't even know where to start other than swapping out parts. Thanks for that!
Yes, driving it is nice. It's just about like a normal car now, runs close to how I'd imagine they should when most everything is right at least. I don't put many miles on it, but I do daily drive it frequently when the weather is cooperative. It's a fun car and real car people appreciate it I think.