Author Topic: Turbo Tech  (Read 58865 times)

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Offline earlbrown

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #45 on: July 07 2018, 08:34:29 PM »

I suspect the cam is minor compared to the turbos and heads in the rpm bands that we typically run.   


Turbos really are the great equalizer. Maximizing cam events is a lot more critical when you only have 14.7psi to work with.

 I remember a few years ago on my speedboat forums, the N/A guys were building BBCs with hi dollar alum heads, and then spending $3K on porting and shit....
 
....a friend with a turbos on his 'detuned' family boat at 2000hp mentioned his turbos were cheaper that all the heroics it took for the Nth degree N/A builds.  He also mentioned having 16 year old aluminum rods too, which was kinda cool as well.
'87 GN - 4.2L SFI Turbocharged innercooled V6 - Chrome valve covers - supra pump - 14" K&N - 52mm throttlebody - rocker shaft supports -  1/2 intake spacer - TB coolant bypass - 3" ATR exhaust tip - Alum intake pipe - NOS timing cover - chip - relocated charcoal canister - CR42's - stock

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #46 on: July 08 2018, 08:46:07 AM »
16 year old aluminum rods...I guess, according to lore, he gained half and inch of stroke over that period? :D
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Offline BoostedRPS

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #47 on: July 08 2018, 09:06:43 AM »
Got bored and ran a few common Comp Buick turbo V6 grinds through the Cam Motion calculator.  Overlap varies from -3* to -21*, that is a pretty substantial range; and can create issues when not appropriate for the application.  Jason's cam came in at -15*, IIRC.

A discussion on negative overlap cams:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712


It says I have to be a member to view that page.


Everything with the cam has to do with the timing of the intake valve closing.


If I get a chance, I'll try to post the information that Dema Elgin requires when he specs a cam for an engine. He asks for a ton of information; like what the cylinder heads flow for each valve and cylinder, at .025" increments of lift... EX: .025" lift, .050", .075", .100", etc..


Apparently he was the guy behind all of Duttweiler's badass cams in the 90's. His shop is actually about an hour and a half North of where I lived in the Bay. I'm about 90% certain I will be having him spec my cam for my engine.


I know he is more expensive than other people, but I have heard nothing but amazing reviews of this guy, and since I am shooting for 1,500+ (Ideally I would like to see a 1,600hp+ number) on Duttweiler's dyno, I will need everything to be perfect in order to do that.


In case you might be curious as to how I would achieve such a number, WORK Turbo will be sending me two or three turbos to use to try and hit that number. The first turbo will be WORK's Pro Mod 91mm which should support 1,600-1,700. I think I'll ask him to also send a Pro Mod 94mm and a 98mm just in case we need that amount of airflow.




The only thing that I am surprised by is the fact that the thread has not been deleted yet



I agree!


I'm not sure if the mods/admin haven't noticed it yet, or if they are no longer sweeping things under the rug?


Either way, it is pretty weird timing, considering all the Weber drama that took place recently.



https://turbobuick.com/threads/nick-micale-arizonagn.458899/

Not the first unhappy customer, probably wont be the last. I hate to bash a long time guy that provides "some" tech but if you aren't taking care of your customers, someone else will.


I have been leery of Nick for some time now, but my partner Reggie trusts him, so I must trust Reggie and thus by extension, Nick....howeve
r if he knew he was sick, or could not do the work, you should never put the stake of your reputation in someone else's hands.

The guy is 82 years old! When I saw him at the Bates I thought to myself "how the hell can this guy still work on Buicks if he doesn't even look strong enough to lift the actual parts??!!"

Offline Scoobum

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #48 on: July 08 2018, 09:16:25 AM »
Tyler...if you can...post pics and vids of your build. I know you started it on the other board. Maybe give the guys a quick over view of what you have, and have done up to this point...and then keep us updated as you go along.
Hard work pays off, dreams come true. Bad times don't last, but BAD GUYS do!

RIP Scott Hall AKA Razor Ramon

Offline BoostedRPS

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #49 on: July 08 2018, 09:25:50 AM »
I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.



I agree with the notion that most people will not maximize the turbo they have. I would also go so far as to state that a majority of TR owners have over-turbo'd setups.


A good converter can definitely go a long way to help with a turbo's performance.


I was speaking with Reed last night about his G4 6765 dual ball bearing units, and I seriously could not believe the performance numbers he was giving me. Also, shameless plug- he said that next week he is going to be giving me special Promo pricing for the G4S 6765 DBB units for next week only, so stay tuned ;)


I was asking him about what the center cartridges are in his G4's, and I will admit that I was wrong when I previously said it was not like a Garrett center section. WORK's G4 ball bearing center sections use Garrett bearings and Garrett bearing housings, because "They are the best I can find, so that's what I'm gonna use!" This was really reassuring to hear, especially after watching that video from Turbo Lab stating that the Garrett ball bearing cartridges spool 500rpm faster than the Precision ball bearing cartridges.


When I asked him what kinda stall his 6765 DBB would need, using an example engine setup of; stock displacement and compression ratio, ported iron heads, aftermarket camshaft with 208+ duration, E85 as fuel, and a PTC 9.5" converter.... he told me that his turbos would need a stall speed of 3,000-3,100rpm and that the turbo would be fully spooled shortly after, but he did add that if the car was a chipped car it would need more fine tuning to reach that 3,100rpm-ish full spool compared to if the car had an aftermarket ECM in it in which case it would spool by 3,100-ish easily....keep in mind this turbo has made over 960rwhp on a Stage 1 block with GN1R heads...and they still had 6-8psi left in the turbo (they ran out of injector so they had to quit there).


He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..


I don't know about you guys, but those numbers blew my fucking mind...that completely shits over anything I've ever heard of for a stock displacement/stock CR/ported irons setup spooling a bigass turbo that can produce 4-figure horsepower numbers..


I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...



« Last Edit: July 08 2018, 10:29:21 AM by BoostedRPS »

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #50 on: July 08 2018, 09:39:11 AM »
If you "quote" the above, you can read it :)
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Offline Scoobum

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #51 on: July 08 2018, 09:51:55 AM »
Fine tuning for a chip car to get it to spool in that range. That's right up Scoobs alley.
Hard work pays off, dreams come true. Bad times don't last, but BAD GUYS do!

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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #52 on: July 08 2018, 09:59:55 AM »
[/size]I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.



I agree with the notion that most people will not maximize the turbo they have. I would also go so far as to state that a majority of TR owners have over-turbo'd setups.


A good converter can definitely go a long way to help with a turbo's performance.


I was speaking with Reed last night about his G4 6765 dual ball bearing units, and I seriously could not believe the performance numbers he was giving me. Also, shameless plug- he said that next week he is going to be giving me special Promo pricing for the G4S 6765 DBB units for next week only, so stay tuned ;)


I was asking him about what the center cartridges are in his G4's, and I will admit that I was wrong when I previously said it was not like a Garrett center section. WORK's G4 ball bearing center sections use Garrett bearings and Garrett bearing housings, because "They are the best I can find, so that's what I'm gonna use!" This was really reassuring to hear, especially after watching that video from Turbo Lab stating that the Garrett ball bearing cartridges spool 500rpm faster than the Precision ball bearing cartridges.


When I asked him what kinda stall his 6765 DBB would need, using an example engine setup of; stock displacement and compression ratio, ported iron heads, aftermarket camshaft with 208+ duration, E85 as fuel, and a PTC 9.5" converter.... he told me that his turbos would need a stall speed of 3,000-3,100rpm and that the turbo would be fully spooled shortly after, but he did add that if the car was a chipped car it would need more fine tuning to reach that 3,100rpm-ish full spool compared to if the car had an aftermarket ECM in it in which case it would spool by 3,100-ish easily....keep in mind this turbo has made over 960rwhp on a Stage 1 block with GN1R heads...and they still had 6-8psi left in the turbo (they ran out of injector so they had to quit there).


He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..


I don't know about you guys, but those numbers blew my fucking mind...that completely shits over anything I've ever heard of for a stock displacement/stock CR/ported irons setup spooling a bigass turbo that can produce 4-figure horsepower numbers..


I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...





when you say spool 500 rpm faster....you mean it takes 500 rpm less stall to spool the turbo-correct?  :)
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Offline nocooler

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #53 on: July 08 2018, 10:31:50 AM »
I fixed the size...
IhaveaV8

Offline BoostedRPS

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #54 on: July 08 2018, 10:43:40 AM »

I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.



I agree with the notion that most people will not maximize the turbo they have. I would also go so far as to state that a majority of TR owners have over-turbo'd setups.


A good converter can definitely go a long way to help with a turbo's performance.


I was speaking with Reed last night about his G4 6765 dual ball bearing units, and I seriously could not believe the performance numbers he was giving me. Also, shameless plug- he said that next week he is going to be giving me special Promo pricing for the G4S 6765 DBB units for next week only, so stay tuned ;)


I was asking him about what the center cartridges are in his G4's, and I will admit that I was wrong when I previously said it was not like a Garrett center section. WORK's G4 ball bearing center sections use Garrett bearings and Garrett bearing housings, because "They are the best I can find, so that's what I'm gonna use!" This was really reassuring to hear, especially after watching that video from Turbo Lab stating that the Garrett ball bearing cartridges spool 500rpm faster than the Precision ball bearing cartridges.


When I asked him what kinda stall his 6765 DBB would need, using an example engine setup of; stock displacement and compression ratio, ported iron heads, aftermarket camshaft with 208+ duration, E85 as fuel, and a PTC 9.5" converter.... he told me that his turbos would need a stall speed of 3,000-3,100rpm and that the turbo would be fully spooled shortly after, but he did add that if the car was a chipped car it would need more fine tuning to reach that 3,100rpm-ish full spool compared to if the car had an aftermarket ECM in it in which case it would spool by 3,100-ish easily....keep in mind this turbo has made over 960rwhp on a Stage 1 block with GN1R heads...and they still had 6-8psi left in the turbo (they ran out of injector so they had to quit there).


He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..


I don't know about you guys, but those numbers blew my fucking mind...that completely shits over anything I've ever heard of for a stock displacement/stock CR/ported irons setup spooling a bigass turbo that can produce 4-figure horsepower numbers..


I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...





when you say spool 500 rpm faster....you mean it takes 500 rpm less stall to spool the turbo-correct?  :)

Hey, how do I quote multiple posts at once?

I suppose it is all about perception in some regard.. But I understand it as a Garrett DBB turbo would spool at, let's say, 3,000rpm and the PTE unit would spool at 3,500rpm. I took it as a literal amount of rpm, not the stall speed required since Turbo Lab made no mention of stall speed, from what I recall.

Tyler...if you can...post pics and vids of your build. I know you started it on the other board. Maybe give the guys a quick over view of what you have, and have done up to this point...and then keep us updated as you go along.


Okie dokie!

Here is a link to my build's page on our company website, although I need to update a few things on it; https://www.boostedrps.com/tyler

Engine Setup:
On Center TA block being built by Duttweiler in September
SCAT custom billet 3.625" stroke, wide journal, micro-polished, knife-edged, crankshaft
Crower ON center billet rods
Pistons to be spec'd by Duttweiler, but most likely custom CP's or custom Diamonds..prol ly CP's..
Solid roller Camshaft to be spec'd by Dema Elgin
Stage 2 Chapman ported heads
Carb-converted Stage 2 intake fully ported by Wilson Manifolds with 12 injector bosses, and 4 fuel rails. Previously made 1,572hp
90mm upper plenum elbow
90mm throttle body
1st set of fuel injectors to most likely be Bosch EV14 200lbers, or Injector Dynamics ID2000's
2nd set of injectors to most likely be Billet Atomizer 275's
Stage 2 front cover
Weiss 5 stage dry sump oil pump
Dry Sump oil pan with windage tray and 3 -12AN ports
Custom turbo spec'd and built by WORK Turbo
Custom Bell intercooler designed by Jonathan Gwinn and Myself
Weldon 2345A fuel pump
Kenny Bell Boost A Pump
Weldon 2047 fuel pressure regulator (or a Kinsler K140..not sure yet)
Gee M Racing custom Stage 2 Twin Scroll 4 bolt headers with EGT bungs in each primary, 2 transducer bungs, and 2 external wastegate pipes
WAS Going to be a MS3 Ultimate setup...most likely going to be a Holley EFI setup now, depending on how much insurance pays me from my claim after I was robbed of all my shit
TH400 built by either Dusty Bradford, or Janis
PTC 9.5" NLU
Moser Super G 9" rear end
lots of fancy suspension parts

I think that about sums it up!

I need to make sure to thank the sponsors, though...
WORK Turbo
Weldon
Gee M Racing
SCAT
Bell Intercoolers
AMP EFI / DIY AUTO for the MS3 system


I think I got everything?



Offline Forzfed

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #55 on: July 08 2018, 10:56:12 AM »

He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..

I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...
That does sound amazing!  I will have to see how my 6468 performs and if I don't like it I think I might have to upgrade. :icon_lol:

Offline BoostedRPS

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #56 on: July 08 2018, 11:09:49 AM »

He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..

I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...
That does sound amazing!  I will have to see how my 6468 performs and if I don't like it I think I might have to upgrade. :icon_lol:


I will bet you $20 right now that it doesn't spool by 3,200rpm.


Er well... what is your setup again?


I don't bet..basically ever... but I believe in these turbos so much that I'd bet you $100 off the price of a turbo, or $50 in your hands, that the G4S 6765 would spool faster than the 6468 turbo.




Offline motorhead

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #57 on: July 08 2018, 11:55:17 AM »
Well if you aren't a member at Speedtalk, you should be. ;)

As for boost numbers... forget that noise - that is for BSing at Cars and Coffee.  The only thing I want to hear about is air flow into the engine - g/cyl, lb/min, g/sec, etc.  Even my TBSS running SD has an accurate MAF on it to show actual air flow.

Cam, heads, turbo are all part of the equation and must be matched; and while the old Buick recipes work - the lack of innovation or adoption of new technologies is extremely frustrating.  Especially when the old guard cock-blocks change.

Credit where credit is due - those who bring new product to market and "play the game" are to be commended - even if that isn't how things should work.

The number of "204/214 cam" threads at TB.com is hillarious - every asshat singing off the same sheet of music because of the vocal minority won't change their tune.
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Offline BoostedRPS

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #58 on: July 08 2018, 12:11:29 PM »
I agree airflow is what matters. I think the 10.98 at 12psi on ported irons (we can deduce via flow numbers of irons that the 6765 must move some serious air) shows just how much this turbo can move. BUT I have yet to test it myself, or have someone I trust test it, so until then I am going off what Reed's own experiences are. I trust him implicitly.

As far as "playing the game" I am not quite sure what you mean, but I can tell you that as a new vendor all you get is shittalking and people trying to fuck your connects up...Ive had people try to contact WORK and squeeze me out, and people literally LIE to companies to cause me to lose the ability to sell their products...

I don't know "playing the game" would be, but I don't think I'm doing it right, haha! I just be myself, and if people like that, cool. If not, cool. I genuinely believe that if someone was looking for a product and gave me a chance, they would see why everyone who has bought stuff off me has awesome stuff to say about their experience.

Between being the new company on the block, AND being younger than 95% of TR owners, it makes it difficult to earn people's business who have never heard of you.

That won't stop me, though. I'll let this new engine and setup show everyone what I am capable of :)

Well if you aren't a member at Speedtalk, you should be. ;)

As for boost numbers... forget that noise - that is for BSing at Cars and Coffee.  The only thing I want to hear about is air flow into the engine - g/cyl, lb/min, g/sec, etc.  Even my TBSS running SD has an accurate MAF on it to show actual air flow.

Cam, heads, turbo are all part of the equation and must be matched; and while the old Buick recipes work - the lack of innovation or adoption of new technologies is extremely frustrating.  Especially when the old guard cock-blocks change.

Credit where credit is due - those who bring new product to market and "play the game" are to be commended - even if that isn't how things should work.

The number of "204/214 cam" threads at TB.com is hillarious - every asshat singing off the same sheet of music because of the vocal minority won't change their tune.

Offline reality

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Re: Turbo Tech
« Reply #59 on: July 08 2018, 01:11:24 PM »
When you guys talk about ''over turbo'' and ''all in'' what exactly do you mean? Sounds like a catch phrase to me. Yes I know you don't put a 105mm on a stock blockLet's use a 11.00 3800 lb Regal for ex. What is over turbo and under turbo? and why do you want to be ''all in''.

 

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