IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense

Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Steve Wood on July 05 2018, 05:49:06 PM

Title: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 05 2018, 05:49:06 PM
Talking to Brad about turbos and my opinions about on certain turbos led me to look for a write up someone had doen in the past about the problems with some PTE units.  I recalled that the guy had torn down a PTE bb unit and noted that the bearings were small compared to other manufacturers such as Garrett.  I could not find the write up which is a shame because it was very detailed.

In the meantime, Brad sent me a link to a current thread on the other board.  It was started by a guy selling WORK turbos and some others and I noted he mentioned the bearing problems.  I also remember that PTE used steel thrust bearings on some units instead of brass like the other companies and this lead to failure as well prematurely.

Anyway, I don't read the other board, but, I thought this is an interesting thread

https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/article-on-why-billet-turbos-make-so-much-power-and-the-different-types-of-billet-wheels.458778/ (https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/article-on-why-billet-turbos-make-so-much-power-and-the-different-types-of-billet-wheels.458778/)

Here is the actual article the guy is writing      https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/06/20/Turbocharger-Cast-and-Billet-Compressor-Wheels--Not-all-Billet-Wheels-are-Made-EqualDont-Overpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo (https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/06/20/Turbocharger-Cast-and-Billet-Compressor-Wheels--Not-all-Billet-Wheels-are-Made-EqualDont-Overpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo)   
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 05 2018, 05:56:18 PM
So how much of the turbo is made by WORK?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 05 2018, 06:08:07 PM
I texted Tyler...he's on his way. You got questions...fi re away.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 05 2018, 06:47:27 PM
Talking to Brad about turbos and my opinions about on certain turbos led me to look for a write up someone had doen in the past about the problems with some PTE units.  I recalled that the guy had torn down a PTE bb unit and noted that the bearings were small compared to other manufacturers such as Garrett.  I could not find the write up which is a shame because it was very detailed.

In the meantime, Brad sent me a link to a current thread on the other board.  It was started by a guy selling WORK turbos and some others and I noted he mentioned the bearing problems.  I also remember that PTE used steel thrust bearings on some units instead of brass like the other companies and this lead to failure as well prematurely.

Anyway, I don't read the other board, but, I thought this is an interesting thread

https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/article-on-why-billet-turbos-make-so-much-power-and-the-different-types-of-billet-wheels.458778/ (https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/article-on-why-billet-turbos-make-so-much-power-and-the-different-types-of-billet-wheels.458778/)

Here is the actual article the guy is writing      https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/06/20/Turbocharger-Cast-and-Billet-Compressor-Wheels--Not-all-Billet-Wheels-are-Made-EqualDont-Overpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo (https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/06/20/Turbocharger-Cast-and-Billet-Compressor-Wheels--Not-all-Billet-Wheels-are-Made-EqualDont-Overpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo)


Hey There!


That would be me, Tyler, who wrote that article! :D


I hope you enjoyed reading it! The whole purpose for writing it was to try to explain and simplify the different turbocharger wheel technologies in a way that someone who may not be familiar with this stuff, can understand.


Here is the link to the Turbo Lab of America video where they discuss the PTE vs Garrett ball bearing cartridge, and how the Garrett unit not only spools 500rpm quicker than the PTE, but it is also more durable as well.  http://turbolabofamerica.com/category/precision-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-gt35r-hybrid/ (http://turbolabofamerica.com/category/precision-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-gt35r-hybrid/)


For what it is worth, the WORK turbos use center cartridges that are similar to the Garrett ones, so you can expect the same quality and durability out of the WORK DBB units as you would the Garrett DBB units.


Again, I really appreciate the compliments about my article.


Do you have any other questions regarding the article, or WORK, Garrett, or Borg Warner turbos?


So how much of the turbo is made by WORK?



I am assuming you are referring to the G4 turbos?


The Compressor and Turbine housings are a WORK design. They are both modified in-house at WORK. ALL the compressor wheels are 100% WORK-designed. SOME of the turbine wheels (not all) are WORK-designed, the others are derivatives of Garrett GTX and GTW wheels.


The center sections are 100% made in the USA, and assembled by WORK. I think it would be a bit much to ask for a company to make their own center sections as well. I believe only Turbonetics makes every part of their turbo in-house.






I texted Tyler...he's on his way. You got questions...fi re away.


Yes Sir! I'm here to answer any questions you guys may have!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 05 2018, 06:52:12 PM
Tyler...where are you with the IC's? Just the cores show on your site. Can we expect you to be selling them as drop in units for the TR's? If so...when?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 05 2018, 06:57:11 PM
Tyler...where are you with the IC's? Just the cores show on your site. Can we expect you to be selling them as drop in units for the TR's? If so...when?


Hey Brad!


The Treadstone cores are taking longer than expected.


As far as the Bell cores... Duttweiler is building my engine in September. Once my engine is built, we'll be dropping the engine in a car, and shortly after that we will begin the fabrication for the two Bell cores, starting with the smaller 3.5" thick, "1,100hp" rated core. I say 1,100 in quotations, because these cores are way underrated.


So to answer your question, after my engine is built and installed in the car, I would expect fabrication for the Bell cores to start within a month or two.


It all depends on how soon my engine gets built.




BTW Brad pointed out I forgot the link to the Turbo Lab page. Here is the link:  http://turbolabofamerica.com/category/precision-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-gt35r-hybrid/ (http://turbolabofamerica.com/category/precision-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-gt35r-hybrid/)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 05 2018, 07:36:31 PM
Thanks for coming over, Tyler.  It's good to see some fresh blood and fresh ideas in the market :)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 05 2018, 07:59:12 PM
Thanks for coming over, Tyler.  It's good to see some fresh blood and fresh ideas in the market :)


Thank you Steve!


We (RPS) have actually already developed a few products that I believe no one else currently (or has ever, in some instances) offered for the Buicks, but I don't really advertise them because every time I do, people always give us shit for it. They figure that since I am young (31yrs old, but I have owned TR's since I was 17) I must not know anything, and dismiss what we created immediately. Not taking into account who helped us develop these parts how we arrived at the designs/final product.


That being said, with the help of Tom Molnar from Molnar Technologies, we have developed the first-ever billet 4340 steel wide journal, off center, h-beam connecting rods for the Buicks. These rods were shown to Kenny Duttweiler in-person just a few weeks ago by myself, and when I told Kenny that I'd be using them in an engine trying to make 1,500-1,600hp he told me that I should have no issues with these rods taking that power, and that he really liked the design.


Best part? Is that these rods cost under $950! Bad Part? I only have ONE set left :/


We also have the only liquid to air intercooler setup for a TR currently, I believe. It is a stock location setup that can support over 1,000hp. Comes with a lot of stuff you could piece together yourself, except the mounts and the piping, but we sell it all for about what you'd pay if you bought everything individually, except our kit comes complete with everything you need.


 We have the only production intercooler that uses air diffusers in the end tanks to help increase the efficiency and keep a low pressure drop across the intercooler core.


Lastly, I believe we are the only company that offers billet crankshafts that come in ANY stroke you want, ANY journal size (narrow or wide) you want, micro-polished, and knife-edged standard, and all of that cost is included in the pricing...Whic h currently we have 1 (that I know for SURE) crankshaft left that we're selling for $3,200 shipped.


Anyway, we're just laying low right now until we have more stuff tested. Then we'll be bringing it more into the public's eye.


I really appreciate you letting me post and answer questions on your forum! I hope I can offer some good insight into what is going on in the Buick turbo world today!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 05 2018, 08:33:04 PM
I'm 2 1/2 times as old as you, Tyler.  :D I'm still interested in fresh ideas.  I have learned how every thing works about 4 times and just about as soon as I have it down, it all changes again.  That's how the world works.  Technology evolves faster and faster as our tools and knowledge base improve and grow.

Buicks are a small pond and change is not always accepted  It's like a small town in that a small number of people tend to run everything and growth is stifled until suddenly there is a quantum change causing a management change.

31 might seem young but new mousetraps invariably come from the young so I would not waste time on that issue.  Performance is always noticed and there is always an entourage waiting for the new bus to come along.

Don't be afraid to roil the waters.  Progress involves change and that incurs a certain amount of risk but performance is always noticed and applauded...us ually after a few rounds of boos.

You write well.  I enjoyed learning something :)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: good2win22 on July 05 2018, 11:12:57 PM
Thanks for coming over Tyler! I've seen the shit storm that you took on the intercooler. Remember this, before there is progress, there will be struggle.


Also, big thanks to the fellas for finding the articles on the ball bearing units. I knew I read something somewhere. I may be in the market for something bigger in the future and precision doesn't offer a journal bearing cartridge for what I'm looking for.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 05 2018, 11:42:44 PM
Thanks for coming over Tyler! I've seen the shit storm that you took on the intercooler. Remember this, before there is progress, there will be struggle.


Also, big thanks to the fellas for finding the articles on the ball bearing units. I knew I read something somewhere. I may be in the market for something bigger in the future and precision doesn't offer a journal bearing cartridge for what I'm looking for.


It still shocks me when I hear someone tell me about some time I got a bunch of shit from someone for a part I'm working on, or some point I was trying to make...just kinda reinforces the notion of how small the Buick community is, I guess.


I have to ask...what were your thoughts when you saw the shitstorm I got when I posted my intercoolers? Sorry if it is a weird question, I got my degree in psychology from UCSB, so I find things like that fascinating.


I had someone tell me the other day that they got a screenshot of a post I made on Turbobuick.com in a Borg Warner thread, and Nick Micale got all on my ass because someone posted asking if there are 3-bolt Borg Warner turbos coming soon, and I told them that WORK already has them. Well Nick took it as I'm trying to poach or whatever, when I really didn't mean for it to come off like that, and what sucked even more was that I couldn't edit my post to change it once I saw his response....my buddy told me he got a message from a friend showing a screenshot of my post and Nick's response and he told him something along the lines of "Look at Nick starting shit" or like "Look at Tyler getting shit". It makes me wonder just how many instances like that there are, regarding stuff I have posted, that people gossip about. I know I have caused a lot of waves since I started RPS, and I have heard rumors spread about me even as far as I lied about being robbed so that I could commit insurance fraud, because I owed money to companies for parts I already received!! I couldn't believe it!! These rumors have to start somewhere, and I have a pretty good idea where that is, but what sucks the most is that people form an opinion of me without ever giving my company (Or Reggie or Kendall who work with me) a chance, and see just how different we are than everyone else...


Sorry for the rant. It is something that has been erking me for a while, and your response seemed to trigger that. If you wouldn't mind sharing what your thoughts were when all that intercooler stuff went down, it may actually help me in how I deal with things in the future. I am constantly and continuously trying to make improvements to myself to handle situations like that in a better way.


I appreciate any input you may have.


Thank you,
Tyler


PS- I hope you give RPS a chance when it comes to any new turbo you are looking for! Please know that we have more than just the G4 line when it comes to our WORK turbos (besides the Garrett and Borg Warner units, of course) and no one uses as high-quality of parts as Reed does!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 06 2018, 07:37:01 AM
NOBODY is up to Nick.s standard so I would not worry about that.


Turbo Buicks and psychology sure seems like a contradiction to me.


Butting heads with the competition is expected in a free market society all we can do is put it behind us and move on.


Just my thoughts for the day.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 06 2018, 07:37:06 AM
Tyler...you're young...articu late...educate d...tech savvy...and honest. You're offering the highest quality products with the knowledge and tech to back it all up. The bottom line is...you're cutting into their profit margins...and they aren't liking it. One of them even has in his sig, I was here first. You guys just keep doing what you're doing...and ignore the BS.

P.S. Get on that IC as quick as you can...and get it to market. Give us a writeup on the vertical flow vs horizontal. Remember to dumb things down so everyone can understand it.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 06 2018, 08:17:29 AM
When you are done fixing the turbos and intercoolers - please fix the camshafts used in these cars.  I don't think there has been a fresh grind using modern lobes and valvetrain data in what... 15-20 years?

PS. It is time to march off the old guard of vendors.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 06 2018, 08:39:46 AM
If you are going to be upset with every Tom, Dick, and Coattail Rider that lives on the Net, then you will have a miserable life.  Suck it up!  If a man is measured by the quality of his enemies, you have not even scratched the surface yet.

If such people were kissing your butt and praising you, I would have serious doubts about you LOL
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 06 2018, 09:24:11 AM
As far as the ess slingin' you certainly ain't the first and assuredly wont bet he last. That board has a history of protecting venders, deleting posts and the like. It might not be like that any more but it sure feels like it. And perception is reality.

As posted, keep up your fine work. No one likes it when their apple cart gets overturned .

There is a reason we as a group hang out here and not there.

As a side note you should sent a note to mark(supersix) or no cooler and get yourself a banner ad.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: good2win22 on July 06 2018, 11:15:40 AM
NOBODY is up to Nick.s standard so I would not worry about that.


Turbo Buicks and psychology sure seems like a contradiction to me.


Butting heads with the competition is expected in a free market society all we can do is put it behind us and move on.


Just my thoughts for the day.
I considered the source first of all as that fella is "never" wrong and as always, make my own assessment.  I've butted heads with that fella before over what he says will work vs what was being used on a combo. I simply explained that a fella can skin a cat 12 dozen different ways but still have the same result... a skinned cat.  Different strokes for different folks... what works for you may not work for me analogy and left it at that.  I still read his comments and respect his experience but I probably won't have him over to the house to meet the wife and kids
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: good2win22 on July 06 2018, 11:18:44 AM
When you are done fixing the turbos and intercoolers - please fix the camshafts used in these cars.  I don't think there has been a fresh grind using modern lobes and valvetrain data in what... 15-20 years?

PS. It is time to march off the old guard of vendors.
I know xfi lobes are nothing new but I believe the grind on my cam is on target to make some serious power.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Grumpy on July 06 2018, 11:42:45 AM
If you are going to be upset with every Tom, Dick, and Coattail Rider that lives on the Net, then you will have a miserable life.  Suck it up!  If a man is measured by the quality of his enemies, you have not even scratched the surface yet.

If such people were kissing your butt and praising you, I would have serious doubts about you LOL
Words of wisdom  :cool; :rock:
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 06 2018, 12:41:12 PM
When you are done fixing the turbos and intercoolers - please fix the camshafts used in these cars.  I don't think there has been a fresh grind using modern lobes and valvetrain data in what... 15-20 years?

PS. It is time to march off the old guard of vendors.
I know xfi lobes are nothing new but I believe the grind on my cam is on target to make some serious power.

Is it custom spec'd or is it another shelf grind from a vendor?  No cam is a one-size-fits-all for any application.  Shelf grinds are "close enough" solutions bought in bulk and sold on a snake oil premise.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 06 2018, 12:49:32 PM
Tyler--- Good write up!  Do you have any idea what size exducer a Turbonetics 6468 has?
Has this turned into a bashing thread?  I'm in!  Who are we bashing? :P
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: good2win22 on July 06 2018, 01:02:19 PM
When you are done fixing the turbos and intercoolers - please fix the camshafts used in these cars.  I don't think there has been a fresh grind using modern lobes and valvetrain data in what... 15-20 years?

PS. It is time to march off the old guard of vendors.
I know xfi lobes are nothing new but I believe the grind on my cam is on target to make some serious power.

Is it custom spec'd or is it another shelf grind from a vendor?  No cam is a one-size-fits-all for any application.  Shelf grinds are "close enough" solutions bought in bulk and sold on a snake oil premise.
Custom spec'd and I'll be glad to share the cam card. Here ya go. Notice the duration is opposite of the popular Rev-x 210-215
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 06 2018, 02:14:29 PM
Cam shafts with certain numbers can vary vastly even within a given vendor. It depends on the individual application. 


Something like a dot tire not to be used for highway use
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 06 2018, 03:10:27 PM
That board has a history of protecting venders, deleting posts and the like. It might not be like that any more but it sure feels like it. And perception is reality.


No kidding. I was told point blank I'd have no issues with my piston project by the administrator and the owner.  Since I wasn't competing with a vendor and bringing something new to the market,  I was even told I'd have interference ran for me and that he didn't want me to team up with a vendor.

Next thing I know I have to pay $500 to hand out free tech advice and sell pistons at cost.


Needless to say, that didn't happen.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 06 2018, 03:22:52 PM
When you are done fixing the turbos and intercoolers - please fix the camshafts used in these cars.  I don't think there has been a fresh grind using modern lobes and valvetrain data in what... 15-20 years?

PS. It is time to march off the old guard of vendors.
I know xfi lobes are nothing new but I believe the grind on my cam is on target to make some serious power.

Is it custom spec'd or is it another shelf grind from a vendor?  No cam is a one-size-fits-all for any application.  Shelf grinds are "close enough" solutions bought in bulk and sold on a snake oil premise.
Custom spec'd and I'll be glad to share the cam card. Here ya go. Notice the duration is opposite of the popular Rev-x 210-215

That is good to see.  I am mobile at the moment and cannot check the overlap - but... here's a neat tool to compare valve events with: http://www.cammotion.com/cam-timer (http://www.cammotion.com/cam-timer)

Obviously this doesn't account for lobe shape and ramp rates (factors impacting valvetrain stability) - but it does give you an idea if it is correct for the application.

Now take all those "classic" shelf grinds and plug them in... and I'd bet that between the antiquated theory they were ground against and the lobe profiles they are ground on that you'll discover some differences and issues compared to their contemporaries .
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 06 2018, 03:37:13 PM
If you are going to be upset with every Tom, Dick, and Coattail Rider that lives on the Net, then you will have a miserable life.  Suck it up!  If a man is measured by the quality of his enemies, you have not even scratched the surface yet.

If such people were kissing your butt and praising you, I would have serious doubts about you LOL



You are absolutely correct, Sir.


I try to keep the "this is the internet" mentality about myself as best possible. Being human, that does slip from time to time and I get erked more than I should. Typically whenever you see me take a day or two away from the boards is when I'm "centering" myself (I'm kinda a hippie at heart) and getting back to where I enjoy being.


I really look forward to this engine being built and showing what we can do. I think once people see a 1,500hp+ dyno sheet, they will realize we are serious about this and will be a force to be reckoned with.


NOBODY is up to Nick.s standard so I would not worry about that.Turbo Buicks and psychology sure seems like a contradiction to me.Butting heads with the competition is expected in a free market society all we can do is put it behind us and move on. Just my thoughts for the day.


Hahaha, Turbo Buick enthusiasts sometimes are the more entertaining people to interact with, from a psychological perspective. You have the "Starved for Attention" types, the "Needs to be respected" types, the "Follows the crowd" types, etc.. It is pretty fascinating having a medium that allows me to interact with people all across the country.

I learned after I got banned for calling out Full Throttle that this is not a game that plays fair.

Prior to that, I got a lesson in just how dirty companies will be when Full Throttle and Cruz called Champion Heads, lied to them about what I was doing, and caused me to lose the ability to sell Champion Heads. When my buddy accused Marianne Licht about it, she didn't even try to deny it. THAT was a BIG wakeup call.

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When you are done fixing the turbos and intercoolers - please fix the camshafts used in these cars.  I don't think there has been a fresh grind using modern lobes and valvetrain data in what... 15-20 years?PS. It is time to march off the old guard of vendors.


There have been some pretty cool advancements in cam technology, especially with the short travel/reduced travel lifters. The ramp rate of lobes can be more aggressive, which will broaden the powerband much more. I do intend on getting to camshafts, but I simply don't have the access to try out my ideas at the moment.



Tyler...you're young...articu late...educate d...tech savvy...and honest. You're offering the highest quality products with the knowledge and tech to back it all up. The bottom line is...you're cutting into their profit margins...and they aren't liking it. One of them even has in his sig, I was here first. You guys just keep doing what you're doing...and ignore the BS. P.S. Get on that IC as quick as you can...and get it to market. Give us a writeup on the vertical flow vs horizontal. Remember to dumb things down so everyone can understand it.



That really means a lot coming from Gentlemen such as yourselves. Really. I feel sometimes with the FB group especially, that there is this "mob mentality" and it reminds me of this show, South Park, when they make fun of large mobs of people who are acting irrational, they have the large groups of people all yell "Rabble Rabble Rabble!!". It genuinely feels like that at times.


It is as if logic is thrown out the window and replaced with a vapid justification of entitlement.


I will be working on the IC's literally as soon as I am able. Unfortunately at the moment there isn't much I can do, unless someone is willing to have me send them the core and pay them to make the piping/mounts.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 06 2018, 03:44:25 PM

I see you guys talking a lot about cams. Have any of you read Dema Elgin's book High Performance Engine Theory?


He has a TON of great information about camshaft design, what you are looking for in terms of duration/intake valve closing/dynamic and static compression ratio/exhaust valve opening.


If I get a moment in the future I'll try to post up some information from the book. It is really informative.


He will spec a custom cam for you for around $500, btw. I believe he used to do all of Duttweiler's cams in the 90s.



Tyler--- Good write up!  Do you have any idea what size exducer a Turbonetics 6468 has?
Has this turned into a bashing thread?  I'm in!  Who are we bashing? :P


Thank you!


I've tried to get a handle on the Turbonetics wheels, but they really don't have much information on their wheels like other companies do.


Add to that they have such a weird way to organize their products, it makes it very difficult to navigate across the different types of products they offer.


Your best bet is to take a mic, pull the compressor cover off, and measure it with the mic. I'd be curious to what you find.


As far as the ess slingin' you certainly ain't the first and assuredly wont bet he last. That board has a history of protecting venders, deleting posts and the like. It might not be like that any more but it sure feels like it. And perception is reality. As posted, keep up your fine work. No one likes it when their apple cart gets overturned . There is a reason we as a group hang out here and not there. As a side note you should sent a note to mark(supersix) or no cooler and get yourself a banner ad.



Very true. I do remember when Bruce owned the board and it was really bad for things like that.


I can see why you guys spend your time here. Much more level-headed discussions.


I will hit him up later today. Thank you for the info!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 06 2018, 05:01:42 PM

Tyler--- Good write up!  Do you have any idea what size exducer a Turbonetics 6468 has?
Has this turned into a bashing thread?  I'm in!  Who are we bashing? :P


Thank you!


I've tried to get a handle on the Turbonetics wheels, but they really don't have much information on their wheels like other companies do.


Add to that they have such a weird way to organize their products, it makes it very difficult to navigate across the different types of products they offer.


Your best bet is to take a mic, pull the compressor cover off, and measure it with the mic. I'd be curious to what you find.
I hope not to be doing that any time soon since I just put the turbo on the car.  It does make my old CPT-66 look small.  I've had luck with Turbonetics so that is why I stuck with it!  I probably would have given the Borg Warner's a try but I bought this turbo over a year ago.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 06 2018, 06:06:09 PM
I agree with the comment about trying to find out information on Turbonetics turbos...the site is terrible and the information is sadly lacking
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 06 2018, 06:37:46 PM
Just as a matter of contention and in light of the trade war going on Turbonetic turbos may be 100% assembled in the USA but not 100% made in the USA,  there is a small machine shop in Burlington ON CA that regularly ship parts to California. Well did anyway lol
Put a tariff on Aluminium but not a finished product. UMM
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 06 2018, 08:44:14 PM
Just as a matter of contention and in light of the trade war going on Turbonetic turbos may be 100% assembled in the USA but not 100% made in the USA,  there is a small machine shop in Burlington ON CA that regularly ship parts to California. Well did anyway lol
Put a tariff on Aluminium but not a finished product. UMM

Ah, I did not know that, thank you for the information!

From everything I have learned while writing that article, and my many conversations with Reed, the owner of WORK Turbo, it seems that there is NO turbo that sources ALL of its' parts 100% from the USA.

I know Reed buys as much as possible from Domestic companies, like his center sections, for example, but there are some pieces (I think it was the turbine housing, or maybe the turbine wheel on some units) that you either cannot source Domestically, or the manufacturers that are Domestic have an inferior product compared to the overseas manufacturers.

I know for a FACT that there is a vendor that sells and builds his own turbos, who everyone thinks is the greatest person to grace the Buick scene since Duttweiler, and take everything he says as fact, that uses Chinese parts in his turbo builds. His turbos still perform great and I have more good experiences than the amount of bad ones, which shows you that just because it uses Chinese parts in it, like the wheels or housings, doesn't mean it is that bad of a product.

I get frustrated because I do not believe this vendor tells their customers that their turbos use Chinese parts, which I believe would have an influence on some people's purchasing habits, and also make them think twice if the parts used in that unit are as high quality as a turbo that uses Domestic high perfornance parts from companies like Garrett or Borg Warner, which have amazing track records for durability..

It upsets me when stuff like that happens and I am unable to make this fact known because they have been around forever and I have not. Again, this vendor builds great products, I am merely taking an issue with they saying they use the same quality parts that WORK uses, or not divulging to their customers that they are using Chinese/Overseas wheels in their turbos.

Oh well :/
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 07 2018, 10:58:04 AM
https://turbobuick.com/threads/nick-micale-arizonagn.458899/ (https://turbobuick.com/threads/nick-micale-arizonagn.458899/)

Not the first unhappy customer, probably wont be the last. I hate to bash a long time guy that provides "some" tech but if you aren't taking care of your customers, someone else will.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 07 2018, 12:47:33 PM
By 'tech', you mean ''you can buy that from T/A performance''?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 07 2018, 01:15:40 PM
The only thing that I am surprised by is the fact that the thread has not been deleted yet
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 07 2018, 01:29:54 PM
I agree with the comment about trying to find out information on Turbonetics turbos...the site is terrible and the information is sadly lacking
I even sent them an email and no response! :icon_confused: :(
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 07 2018, 03:21:47 PM
Got bored and ran a few common Comp Buick turbo V6 grinds through the Cam Motion calculator.  Overlap varies from -3* to -21*, that is a pretty substantial range; and can create issues when not appropriate for the application.  Jason's cam came in at -15*, IIRC.

A discussion on negative overlap cams:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989)

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508)

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712 (http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712)

EDIT:  https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=702425 (https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=702425)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 07 2018, 05:07:40 PM
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-1106-turbo-camshaft-guide/
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 07 2018, 05:59:27 PM
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-1106-turbo-camshaft-guide/

I remember that article. I love seeing Dutt pointing out the dated thinking and its source.  The decades of hearsay carry over is incredible.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1865721-overlap-valve-events-editorial.html (https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1865721-overlap-valve-events-editorial.html)

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1738022-why-lsa-doesn-t-matter.html (https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1738022-why-lsa-doesn-t-matter.html)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: nocooler on July 07 2018, 06:20:41 PM
I want a 3/4 race cam!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 07 2018, 06:27:37 PM
I want a 3/4 race cam!
I have a Full race cam with 2.5 lift! :rock:   There is big holes in my pistons so the valves can clear!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 07 2018, 06:43:10 PM
3/4 race cams worked well in my flatheads
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 07 2018, 06:48:25 PM
it's kinda funny that buick cams are so out of date when Dr. D worked with a bunch of the early buick guys developing engine packages.  I remember Charlie and others always raving about how to pick cams for our cars and most of those guys never ran any better than anyone else.

I suspect the cam is minor compared to the turbos and heads in the rpm bands that we typically run.    I remember when Yaklin sold his black car.  The new owner put a big azz turbo on it and went to the track and ran 10.4 on the factory cam.  In the end, we run them on the track, not on the computer but I guess if I had a long winter, I would be more into computer racing
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: good2win22 on July 07 2018, 07:37:44 PM
Got bored and ran a few common Comp Buick turbo V6 grinds through the Cam Motion calculator.  Overlap varies from -3* to -21*, that is a pretty substantial range; and can create issues when not appropriate for the application.  Jason's cam came in at -15*, IIRC.

A discussion on negative overlap cams:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989)

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508)

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712 (http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712)

EDIT:  https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=702425 (https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=702425)
May explain the laziness at the line.  I'm going to be installing a exhaust pressure sensor in the near future. Super anxious to see what it's doing


Wagoneer has a 5/8 race cam.... while the ranch wagon has an 11-16
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 07 2018, 07:42:49 PM
LOL...cutting edge stuff!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 07 2018, 08:16:27 PM
I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 07 2018, 08:34:29 PM

I suspect the cam is minor compared to the turbos and heads in the rpm bands that we typically run.   


Turbos really are the great equalizer. Maximizing cam events is a lot more critical when you only have 14.7psi to work with.

 I remember a few years ago on my speedboat forums, the N/A guys were building BBCs with hi dollar alum heads, and then spending $3K on porting and shit....
 
....a friend with a turbos on his 'detuned' family boat at 2000hp mentioned his turbos were cheaper that all the heroics it took for the Nth degree N/A builds.  He also mentioned having 16 year old aluminum rods too, which was kinda cool as well.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 08 2018, 08:46:07 AM
16 year old aluminum rods...I guess, according to lore, he gained half and inch of stroke over that period? :D
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 09:06:43 AM
Got bored and ran a few common Comp Buick turbo V6 grinds through the Cam Motion calculator.  Overlap varies from -3* to -21*, that is a pretty substantial range; and can create issues when not appropriate for the application.  Jason's cam came in at -15*, IIRC.

A discussion on negative overlap cams:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6989)

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33508)

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712 (http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52712)


It says I have to be a member to view that page.


Everything with the cam has to do with the timing of the intake valve closing.


If I get a chance, I'll try to post the information that Dema Elgin requires when he specs a cam for an engine. He asks for a ton of information; like what the cylinder heads flow for each valve and cylinder, at .025" increments of lift... EX: .025" lift, .050", .075", .100", etc..


Apparently he was the guy behind all of Duttweiler's badass cams in the 90's. His shop is actually about an hour and a half North of where I lived in the Bay. I'm about 90% certain I will be having him spec my cam for my engine.


I know he is more expensive than other people, but I have heard nothing but amazing reviews of this guy, and since I am shooting for 1,500+ (Ideally I would like to see a 1,600hp+ number) on Duttweiler's dyno, I will need everything to be perfect in order to do that.


In case you might be curious as to how I would achieve such a number, WORK Turbo will be sending me two or three turbos to use to try and hit that number. The first turbo will be WORK's Pro Mod 91mm which should support 1,600-1,700. I think I'll ask him to also send a Pro Mod 94mm and a 98mm just in case we need that amount of airflow.




The only thing that I am surprised by is the fact that the thread has not been deleted yet



I agree!


I'm not sure if the mods/admin haven't noticed it yet, or if they are no longer sweeping things under the rug?


Either way, it is pretty weird timing, considering all the Weber drama that took place recently.



https://turbobuick.com/threads/nick-micale-arizonagn.458899/ (https://turbobuick.com/threads/nick-micale-arizonagn.458899/)

Not the first unhappy customer, probably wont be the last. I hate to bash a long time guy that provides "some" tech but if you aren't taking care of your customers, someone else will.


I have been leery of Nick for some time now, but my partner Reggie trusts him, so I must trust Reggie and thus by extension, Nick....howeve
r if he knew he was sick, or could not do the work, you should never put the stake of your reputation in someone else's hands.

The guy is 82 years old! When I saw him at the Bates I thought to myself "how the hell can this guy still work on Buicks if he doesn't even look strong enough to lift the actual parts??!!"
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 08 2018, 09:16:25 AM
Tyler...if you can...post pics and vids of your build. I know you started it on the other board. Maybe give the guys a quick over view of what you have, and have done up to this point...and then keep us updated as you go along.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 09:25:50 AM
I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.



I agree with the notion that most people will not maximize the turbo they have. I would also go so far as to state that a majority of TR owners have over-turbo'd setups.


A good converter can definitely go a long way to help with a turbo's performance.


I was speaking with Reed last night about his G4 6765 dual ball bearing units, and I seriously could not believe the performance numbers he was giving me. Also, shameless plug- he said that next week he is going to be giving me special Promo pricing for the G4S 6765 DBB units for next week only, so stay tuned ;)


I was asking him about what the center cartridges are in his G4's, and I will admit that I was wrong when I previously said it was not like a Garrett center section. WORK's G4 ball bearing center sections use Garrett bearings and Garrett bearing housings, because "They are the best I can find, so that's what I'm gonna use!" This was really reassuring to hear, especially after watching that video from Turbo Lab stating that the Garrett ball bearing cartridges spool 500rpm faster than the Precision ball bearing cartridges.


When I asked him what kinda stall his 6765 DBB would need, using an example engine setup of; stock displacement and compression ratio, ported iron heads, aftermarket camshaft with 208+ duration, E85 as fuel, and a PTC 9.5" converter.... he told me that his turbos would need a stall speed of 3,000-3,100rpm and that the turbo would be fully spooled shortly after, but he did add that if the car was a chipped car it would need more fine tuning to reach that 3,100rpm-ish full spool compared to if the car had an aftermarket ECM in it in which case it would spool by 3,100-ish easily....keep in mind this turbo has made over 960rwhp on a Stage 1 block with GN1R heads...and they still had 6-8psi left in the turbo (they ran out of injector so they had to quit there).


He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..


I don't know about you guys, but those numbers blew my fucking mind...that completely shits over anything I've ever heard of for a stock displacement/stock CR/ported irons setup spooling a bigass turbo that can produce 4-figure horsepower numbers..


I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...



Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 08 2018, 09:39:11 AM
If you "quote" the above, you can read it :)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 08 2018, 09:51:55 AM
Fine tuning for a chip car to get it to spool in that range. That's right up Scoobs alley.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 08 2018, 09:59:55 AM
[/size]I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.



I agree with the notion that most people will not maximize the turbo they have. I would also go so far as to state that a majority of TR owners have over-turbo'd setups.


A good converter can definitely go a long way to help with a turbo's performance.


I was speaking with Reed last night about his G4 6765 dual ball bearing units, and I seriously could not believe the performance numbers he was giving me. Also, shameless plug- he said that next week he is going to be giving me special Promo pricing for the G4S 6765 DBB units for next week only, so stay tuned ;)


I was asking him about what the center cartridges are in his G4's, and I will admit that I was wrong when I previously said it was not like a Garrett center section. WORK's G4 ball bearing center sections use Garrett bearings and Garrett bearing housings, because "They are the best I can find, so that's what I'm gonna use!" This was really reassuring to hear, especially after watching that video from Turbo Lab stating that the Garrett ball bearing cartridges spool 500rpm faster than the Precision ball bearing cartridges.


When I asked him what kinda stall his 6765 DBB would need, using an example engine setup of; stock displacement and compression ratio, ported iron heads, aftermarket camshaft with 208+ duration, E85 as fuel, and a PTC 9.5" converter.... he told me that his turbos would need a stall speed of 3,000-3,100rpm and that the turbo would be fully spooled shortly after, but he did add that if the car was a chipped car it would need more fine tuning to reach that 3,100rpm-ish full spool compared to if the car had an aftermarket ECM in it in which case it would spool by 3,100-ish easily....keep in mind this turbo has made over 960rwhp on a Stage 1 block with GN1R heads...and they still had 6-8psi left in the turbo (they ran out of injector so they had to quit there).


He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..


I don't know about you guys, but those numbers blew my fucking mind...that completely shits over anything I've ever heard of for a stock displacement/stock CR/ported irons setup spooling a bigass turbo that can produce 4-figure horsepower numbers..


I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...





when you say spool 500 rpm faster....you mean it takes 500 rpm less stall to spool the turbo-correct?  :)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: nocooler on July 08 2018, 10:31:50 AM
I fixed the size...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 10:43:40 AM

I'm all for new cam technology...b ut the bottom line is this. Most won't turn the boost past 20 PSI...so a cam and high end valve train will give minimal bang for the buck. A good NL convertor will give a far better return on investment for ET/MPH.



I agree with the notion that most people will not maximize the turbo they have. I would also go so far as to state that a majority of TR owners have over-turbo'd setups.


A good converter can definitely go a long way to help with a turbo's performance.


I was speaking with Reed last night about his G4 6765 dual ball bearing units, and I seriously could not believe the performance numbers he was giving me. Also, shameless plug- he said that next week he is going to be giving me special Promo pricing for the G4S 6765 DBB units for next week only, so stay tuned ;)


I was asking him about what the center cartridges are in his G4's, and I will admit that I was wrong when I previously said it was not like a Garrett center section. WORK's G4 ball bearing center sections use Garrett bearings and Garrett bearing housings, because "They are the best I can find, so that's what I'm gonna use!" This was really reassuring to hear, especially after watching that video from Turbo Lab stating that the Garrett ball bearing cartridges spool 500rpm faster than the Precision ball bearing cartridges.


When I asked him what kinda stall his 6765 DBB would need, using an example engine setup of; stock displacement and compression ratio, ported iron heads, aftermarket camshaft with 208+ duration, E85 as fuel, and a PTC 9.5" converter.... he told me that his turbos would need a stall speed of 3,000-3,100rpm and that the turbo would be fully spooled shortly after, but he did add that if the car was a chipped car it would need more fine tuning to reach that 3,100rpm-ish full spool compared to if the car had an aftermarket ECM in it in which case it would spool by 3,100-ish easily....keep in mind this turbo has made over 960rwhp on a Stage 1 block with GN1R heads...and they still had 6-8psi left in the turbo (they ran out of injector so they had to quit there).


He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..


I don't know about you guys, but those numbers blew my fucking mind...that completely shits over anything I've ever heard of for a stock displacement/stock CR/ported irons setup spooling a bigass turbo that can produce 4-figure horsepower numbers..


I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...





when you say spool 500 rpm faster....you mean it takes 500 rpm less stall to spool the turbo-correct?  :)

Hey, how do I quote multiple posts at once?

I suppose it is all about perception in some regard.. But I understand it as a Garrett DBB turbo would spool at, let's say, 3,000rpm and the PTE unit would spool at 3,500rpm. I took it as a literal amount of rpm, not the stall speed required since Turbo Lab made no mention of stall speed, from what I recall.

Tyler...if you can...post pics and vids of your build. I know you started it on the other board. Maybe give the guys a quick over view of what you have, and have done up to this point...and then keep us updated as you go along.


Okie dokie!

Here is a link to my build's page on our company website, although I need to update a few things on it; https://www.boostedrps.com/tyler

Engine Setup:
On Center TA block being built by Duttweiler in September
SCAT custom billet 3.625" stroke, wide journal, micro-polished, knife-edged, crankshaft
Crower ON center billet rods
Pistons to be spec'd by Duttweiler, but most likely custom CP's or custom Diamonds..prol ly CP's..
Solid roller Camshaft to be spec'd by Dema Elgin
Stage 2 Chapman ported heads
Carb-converted Stage 2 intake fully ported by Wilson Manifolds with 12 injector bosses, and 4 fuel rails. Previously made 1,572hp
90mm upper plenum elbow
90mm throttle body
1st set of fuel injectors to most likely be Bosch EV14 200lbers, or Injector Dynamics ID2000's
2nd set of injectors to most likely be Billet Atomizer 275's
Stage 2 front cover
Weiss 5 stage dry sump oil pump
Dry Sump oil pan with windage tray and 3 -12AN ports
Custom turbo spec'd and built by WORK Turbo
Custom Bell intercooler designed by Jonathan Gwinn and Myself
Weldon 2345A fuel pump
Kenny Bell Boost A Pump
Weldon 2047 fuel pressure regulator (or a Kinsler K140..not sure yet)
Gee M Racing custom Stage 2 Twin Scroll 4 bolt headers with EGT bungs in each primary, 2 transducer bungs, and 2 external wastegate pipes
WAS Going to be a MS3 Ultimate setup...most likely going to be a Holley EFI setup now, depending on how much insurance pays me from my claim after I was robbed of all my shit
TH400 built by either Dusty Bradford, or Janis
PTC 9.5" NLU
Moser Super G 9" rear end
lots of fancy suspension parts

I think that about sums it up!

I need to make sure to thank the sponsors, though...
WORK Turbo
Weldon
Gee M Racing
SCAT
Bell Intercoolers
AMP EFI / DIY AUTO for the MS3 system


I think I got everything?


Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 08 2018, 10:56:12 AM

He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..

I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...
That does sound amazing!  I will have to see how my 6468 performs and if I don't like it I think I might have to upgrade. :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 11:09:49 AM

He was saying that on his stock block 109 with ported irons and a chip, with a car that weighs 3,807lbs, at 12psi on this turbo he ran 10.98 while footbraking the car and launching at 7-8psi..

I cannot wait to see people use these new turbos and compare them to their PTE's...I honestly think we may have a "changing of the guard" so to speak, regarding what turbos produce the most power for our cars...
That does sound amazing!  I will have to see how my 6468 performs and if I don't like it I think I might have to upgrade. :icon_lol:


I will bet you $20 right now that it doesn't spool by 3,200rpm.


Er well... what is your setup again?


I don't bet..basically ever... but I believe in these turbos so much that I'd bet you $100 off the price of a turbo, or $50 in your hands, that the G4S 6765 would spool faster than the 6468 turbo.



Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 08 2018, 11:55:17 AM
Well if you aren't a member at Speedtalk, you should be. ;)

As for boost numbers... forget that noise - that is for BSing at Cars and Coffee.  The only thing I want to hear about is air flow into the engine - g/cyl, lb/min, g/sec, etc.  Even my TBSS running SD has an accurate MAF on it to show actual air flow.

Cam, heads, turbo are all part of the equation and must be matched; and while the old Buick recipes work - the lack of innovation or adoption of new technologies is extremely frustrating.  Especially when the old guard cock-blocks change.

Credit where credit is due - those who bring new product to market and "play the game" are to be commended - even if that isn't how things should work.

The number of "204/214 cam" threads at TB.com is hillarious - every asshat singing off the same sheet of music because of the vocal minority won't change their tune.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 12:11:29 PM
I agree airflow is what matters. I think the 10.98 at 12psi on ported irons (we can deduce via flow numbers of irons that the 6765 must move some serious air) shows just how much this turbo can move. BUT I have yet to test it myself, or have someone I trust test it, so until then I am going off what Reed's own experiences are. I trust him implicitly.

As far as "playing the game" I am not quite sure what you mean, but I can tell you that as a new vendor all you get is shittalking and people trying to fuck your connects up...Ive had people try to contact WORK and squeeze me out, and people literally LIE to companies to cause me to lose the ability to sell their products...

I don't know "playing the game" would be, but I don't think I'm doing it right, haha! I just be myself, and if people like that, cool. If not, cool. I genuinely believe that if someone was looking for a product and gave me a chance, they would see why everyone who has bought stuff off me has awesome stuff to say about their experience.

Between being the new company on the block, AND being younger than 95% of TR owners, it makes it difficult to earn people's business who have never heard of you.

That won't stop me, though. I'll let this new engine and setup show everyone what I am capable of :)

Well if you aren't a member at Speedtalk, you should be. ;)

As for boost numbers... forget that noise - that is for BSing at Cars and Coffee.  The only thing I want to hear about is air flow into the engine - g/cyl, lb/min, g/sec, etc.  Even my TBSS running SD has an accurate MAF on it to show actual air flow.

Cam, heads, turbo are all part of the equation and must be matched; and while the old Buick recipes work - the lack of innovation or adoption of new technologies is extremely frustrating.  Especially when the old guard cock-blocks change.

Credit where credit is due - those who bring new product to market and "play the game" are to be commended - even if that isn't how things should work.

The number of "204/214 cam" threads at TB.com is hillarious - every asshat singing off the same sheet of music because of the vocal minority won't change their tune.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 08 2018, 01:11:24 PM
When you guys talk about ''over turbo'' and ''all in'' what exactly do you mean? Sounds like a catch phrase to me. Yes I know you don't put a 105mm on a stock blockLet's use a 11.00 3800 lb Regal for ex. What is over turbo and under turbo? and why do you want to be ''all in''.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 08 2018, 01:29:04 PM
I will bet you $20 right now that it doesn't spool by 3,200rpm.


Er well... what is your setup again?


I don't bet..basically ever... but I believe in these turbos so much that I'd bet you $100 off the price of a turbo, or $50 in your hands, that the G4S 6765 would spool faster than the 6468 turbo.
I'm taking it easy right now trying to get some miles on it till I boost it.  I have a 4.3 liter with cnc ported heads running 9.1:1 compression.  With the .85 exhaust it will definitely be a little more laggy than the CPT-66 it replaced.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 08 2018, 01:48:40 PM
16 year old aluminum rods...I guess, according to lore, he gained half and inch of stroke over that period? :D

Pretty sure all 8 of them are broken and nobody bothers to notice the engine still runs.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 08 2018, 01:50:08 PM


Everything with the cam has to do with the timing of the intake valve closing.


There's just a little bit more to it than that.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 08 2018, 02:14:58 PM
As far as "playing the game" I am not quite sure what you mean, but I can tell you that as a new vendor all you get is shittalking and people trying to fuck your connects up...Ive had people try to contact WORK and squeeze me out, and people literally LIE to companies to cause me to lose the ability to sell their products...

I don't know "playing the game" would be, but I don't think I'm doing it right, haha! I just be myself, and if people like that, cool. If not, cool. I genuinely believe that if someone was looking for a product and gave me a chance, they would see why everyone who has bought stuff off me has awesome stuff to say about their experience.

Between being the new company on the block, AND being younger than 95% of TR owners, it makes it difficult to earn people's business who have never heard of you.

That won't stop me, though. I'll let this new engine and setup show everyone what I am capable of :)
That is pretty much it.  The bag licking protectionism that happens on both sides of vending (TB.com, LS1tech.com, etc).  Those selling things, and those blindly defending those things they bought from those selling things.  This occurs because no one wants to be exposed as an underachiever or the follower of an underachiever.   The constant need to have vendors pander to the bottom line of a forum - acknowledging there is a lot of overhead in running a website - is absurd.  Vendor-bias undermines the community and the hobby at large, and risks making victims of its membership.
All that said:  Go get 'em, and report back!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 02:55:02 PM


Everything with the cam has to do with the timing of the intake valve closing.


There's just a little bit more to it than that.

You mean like, if it is 1/2 or 3/4 Race?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 08 2018, 03:23:42 PM
It's like 5/8th race doens't even exist.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 08 2018, 03:58:46 PM
It's like 5/8th race doens't even exist.

You know, if it was at least 1/16th it could qualify to live on a reservation and start your own casino
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: good2win22 on July 08 2018, 08:32:15 PM
When you guys talk about ''over turbo'' and ''all in'' what exactly do you mean? Sounds like a catch phrase to me. Yes I know you don't put a 105mm on a stock blockLet's use a 11.00 3800 lb Regal for ex. What is over turbo and under turbo? and why do you want to be ''all in''.
When you are over turbo'd, you have a turbo on the engine that is to big for the engine.  The engine has a tuff time getting the turbo to spool, the turbo can move more air than the engine can physically move thru it.


When you're all in, you will see increase in boost at low rpm's but once the engine rpm gets up there in the rpm range,  the efficiency of the engine being an air pump takes over and you will see a decrease in boost pressure.  Boost is a measure of restriction. Something called the bernulli principle takes over, when velocity increases, pressure decreases.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 09 2018, 10:47:49 AM
It's like 5/8th race doens't even exist.

You know, if it was at least 1/16th it could qualify to live on a reservation and start your own casino
Ya gota watch that Earl, He's a Hatfield, or was that McCoy?, or something else,... Well definitely something else...  :hmm
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 09 2018, 12:58:25 PM
Hatfield.  Devil Anse is my great great grandfather.



Oddly enough, I don't remember mentioning that in the Buick community.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 09 2018, 11:47:51 PM
When you guys talk about ''over turbo'' and ''all in'' what exactly do you mean? Sounds like a catch phrase to me. Yes I know you don't put a 105mm on a stock blockLet's use a 11.00 3800 lb Regal for ex. What is over turbo and under turbo? and why do you want to be ''all in''.


When we "over turbo" a car, we place the turbocharger above the engine. If the turbo is on top, then it spools faster because physics says that an apple fell on Newton's head, and so turbos spool faster that way. I completely full of shit right now and am being 100% serious, I have an incredibly dry sense of humor, similar to Andy Kaufman, and I can picture you reading my response and being like "wtf is this guy talking about" while you read it. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I'm just an asshole with a sense of humor..


Real response- Over turbo'ing a car means that we put a turbo that is far too large for good response and good spool up, on the engine, so it is very laggy. Think of Supra engines that have zero power until like 6,000rpm...those engines are over-turbo'd, in my opinion.


When you run a turbo "All-in" that means you are running the turbo at the maximum amount the wheels can flow before they start to become inefficient. This ties in a bit with a compressor map. A comp map gives you a "map" (not like Magellan's) that plots how much air the compressor wheel can move and at what pressures. As the turbo spins faster and faster, it becomes less and less efficient. The map plots how much air the wheel can move at different speeds, pressures, and airflow volume. As the wheel spins faster and faster, it becomes less and less efficient. There is a sorta "unwritten rule" that you shouldn't run a turbo past 60%-65% efficiency, meaning less than that.


Cliffnotes:
Over turbo means to put too large of a turbo on a car.
All-in means to run the turbo at the maximum amount of air it can flow.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 10 2018, 01:00:55 AM
Cliffnotes:Over turbo means to put too large of a turbo on a car.All-in means to run the turbo at the maximum amount of air it can flow.

ON the first point I guess the question is why do you need a 44, 50,51..52.53 54  60 61 2345678 70 72 74 turbo and is a 44 too small and a 74 too big for a 11.00 .3800 lb car? Why is 1 better than the other.if they both do the job at hand.

And on the second point why would you want to do that on a street car. I understand if the rules say for ex 70. that you try to max it out


Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 10 2018, 06:32:11 AM
Cliffnotes:Over turbo means to put too large of a turbo on a car.All-in means to run the turbo at the maximum amount of air it can flow.

ON the first point I guess the question is why do you need a 44, 50,51..52.53 54  60 61 2345678 70 72 74 turbo and is a 44 too small and a 74 too big for a 11.00 .3800 lb car? Why is 1 better than the other.if they both do the job at hand.

And on the second point why would you want to do that on a street car. I understand if the rules say for ex 70. that you try to max it out





Oh boy, those questions I could write really long answers for...


Ok so your first question- You don't really need a turbo of any size, it is entirely what people want and THAT is where the problem lies.


People's Ego's and the desire to "have the best" or "showoff" plays a BIG role in the answer to this question. People like to find ways to assert their superiority over others in the social hierarchy of our world. Meaning that people like to find ways to make themselves appear as if they are more important, or even "better" than others. One of these ways, as silly as it sounds, is by using parts that are larger/bigger/newer than other people, even if they may not necessarily gain anything from it, and even if the setup may not be ideal for the performance they are looking for. You can pick these people out pretty easily on the forums- they typically are the people that list every single modification that they have done to the car, and have long signatures that detail all the parts they have put on, as a form of passive-boasting/bragging/social-assertion.


Add to that notion, people are afraid to run their cars at high boost levels, IE- 30psi or more. They fear, and for good reason, that doing so may blow their engines up or cause a catastrophic failure...and for most people that may be true if they do not have their tunes down or do not know what they are doing. Since they will not run the higher boost numbers required to get the max flow out of smaller turbos, they then turn to a larger turbo that will move more air at boost pressures they feel safe with. This is why you see people running 67mm turbos and running low 10s/high 9s, when you could easily run a new 64mm turbo and go mid-9's if you weren't afraid of boost....they want to run the turbo where they feel "safe" but still want that extra amount of airflow, hence putting a larger turbo on their car.


As for what turbo is best for your car? The best turbo is one you are happy with :) If you mean the ideal turbo to maximize your setup? Well then I would need a list of modifications done to your car to help answer that.


A TE44 turbo for a car running 11.00 in a 3,800lb car is probably at it's limit of what it can do. I would consider moving up to a larger turbo by either 1) Having it rebuilt into a larger unit, or 2) Purchasing a new larger unit and selling yours.

Yes, a 74mm turbo is too large if your setup is currently using a TE44...this is my assumption without knowing your complete setup, of course.


And as for why you would want to do that to a street car? Well...you'd have to ask the people that did it. I can't speak for them.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 07:55:58 AM
The other reason for not turning the wick up...is that most are afraid of acceleration and G forces. Norbs tuned 3 of the locals cars with XFI. Each file...showed the TPS come down on launch. The G force at launch scared them.

Most don't need anything bigger than a 6262....but will go bigger and throw every cool guy part at it to show off at the local Timmies.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 10 2018, 09:02:44 AM
Good stuff-
 (I think we found Motorhead Mike's lost_at_birth twin)
The damage equation is be interesting, which configuration is actually less destructive?
Then we have the Micale style 7000+ RPM motor with more kinetic energy I assume...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 10 2018, 09:29:23 AM
Cliff notes
EGO
IT depends


And Brad that's exactly the ''logic'' I don;t  get.
A and B personalities I guess.
 I would never judge somebody for their turbo .
My goal was to drive the car on the street drive to the track on et ss or nitto's  and  do nothing to the car .run 11.50's at around 118 and I exceeded that with a 66 mm.at 19 lbs Could I have done that with a smaller turbo? maybe. but why?
My logic is
.the more you compress something [in this case air] the more heat you make so a bigger turbo will keep the air cooler and won't be as prone to detonation at lower boost with 94 octane.
THEN we can get into a traction discussion Can a bigger turbo help traction if it bleeds off some torque.
The other problem is I didn't have the fuel to turn it up with 255lph and 50's. AT 123 mph I think that was about it.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 10 2018, 09:31:34 AM
In life, it's usually better to be concerned with your own ego and let others worry about theirs....
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Top Speed on July 10 2018, 12:25:28 PM
Best thread in a long while.  Welcome to the board!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 10 2018, 01:47:33 PM
In life, it's usually better to be concerned with your own ego and let others worry about theirs....


No kidding. My ego is so fucking awesome it makes not worrying about others that much easier. :D
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 02:33:14 PM
I don't know anything...so I sit back...watch the locals struggle...and enjoy a cold Corona Extra. I love being stupid.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 10 2018, 03:25:25 PM
(I think we found Motorhead Mike's lost_at_birth twin)

Heh...

Lots of words to say: Cool guy parts. ;)

And Brad, your signature has been deemed to be too long.  So many stock parts listed... :D
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 10 2018, 04:36:47 PM
In life, it's usually better to be concerned with your own ego and let others worry about theirs....

Noticing characteristic s and personality traits is a far cry from dwelling on those very things.

You can watch a car drive by and only while the car is passing you do you even know that car exists. This is vastly different than spending the rest of your day contemplating what was going on in the car that passed you, where they were going, who was driving, how long have they been driving for?! Etc etc...

I studied for four years on this subject at a school that is ranked 29th in the world with 5 Nobel Prize winners as staff...it is fair to say that I pick these things up without trying to. It surprises me how in the past, other people have assumed I must spend hours on end dissecting and analyzing conversations and people. The reality is that I only think of them while I am immediately engaged with them; be it in a PM, post on the forum, text message, or phone call.

After that, I forget them so quickly I couldnt even tell you what we spoke about until their name and something specific in the conversation is brought up again.


Actually that is all a lie. I spend every waking moment catalogging and critiquing your every move so that I can further my agenda of slowly obtaining the ability to read your mind and predict your responses before you even make them.

I KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS.


Wait what were we talking about? I really have to pee.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 04:54:54 PM
Reeds run with the 6765 was 11.17 at 20 PSI. You and I talked on the phone a long time ago about throwing different turbos on a stock stroke 109 with ported irons...as that's what 95 percent of what most are running. Can you provide any other data?

Temp/humidity
60 foot time
Brand of heads...any extra work to them?
E85, race gas, alky or pump gas?
Brand of torque convertor? LU or NL...tho I suspect NL.
Brand of intercooler


P.S. Reeds car seems like a perfect test mule for trying different bolt ons.





Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 10 2018, 04:58:35 PM
Damn, you have a lot of time. Mostly I just worry about making my house payment and phone bill. I'm looking forward to paying off the house. Then there are the projects, GS, the T, a couple suburbans, daughters car, wife's Malibu. Plus the garden tractor I'm working on, kind of a long term deal I think I bought in 02. Then there is the pool and its maintenance and upkeep. I'm really not sure how people have time for a hobby. I'm really thinking mine is drinking beer as I do that while doing the other stuff.

I really don't have time for other peoples silliness. Though I try to help em when I can.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 10 2018, 05:09:18 PM
Damn, you have a lot of time. Mostly I just worry about making my house payment and phone bill. I'm looking forward to paying off the house. Then there are the projects, GS, the T, a couple suburbans, daughters car, wife's Malibu. Plus the garden tractor I'm working on, kind of a long term deal I think I bought in 02. Then there is the pool and its maintenance and upkeep. I'm really not sure how people have time for a hobby. I'm really thinking mine is drinking beer as I do that while doing the other stuff.

I really don't have time for other peoples silliness. Though I try to help em when I can.

Who has a lot of time?

And what brought that conclusion on?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 10 2018, 05:14:07 PM
Your thoughts sure seemed to me to take a lot of time. Just seemed like you could better direct em towards a cam selection or setting up the bottom end of that cool guy engine. But it is your time and I'm not one to try to tell others what to do. I tried to insert a smilie to at least look like I'm being sarcastic. Oh well. Maybe you ponder stuff at a different rate than an old guy like me, so it doesn't take you much time. Or the fancy education schooled you to think quicker, I've read that John Kennedy was a speed reader and read several newspapers in the morning while having breakfast.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: nocooler on July 10 2018, 05:14:26 PM
I love pissing off nut huggers that think you absolutely need the most expensive parts they can buy to go fast, and that tuning is a mystical voodoo art that needs to be left to professionals.

I try to make the most of what I have. I got fed up with the Buick industry after everyone was trying to get me to dump $10k into a short block to achieve my goals.

I put together my Heads, cam, intake, and exhaust setup for less than an aftermarket casting that most vendors try to push you into. And from the dyno sheets yes they make more power - but why do they run so mediocre at the track? I do have some coin in the driveline, suspension, safety equipment. But it takes the abuse I give it and it laughs.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 10 2018, 05:14:50 PM
Reeds run with the 6765 was 11.17 at 20 PSI. You and I talked on the phone a long time ago about throwing different turbos on a stock stroke 109 with ported irons...as that's what 95 percent of what most are running. Can you provide any other data?

Temp/humidity
60 foot time
Brand of heads...any extra work to them?
E85, race gas, alky or pump gas?
Brand of torque convertor? LU or NL...tho I suspect NL.
Brand of intercooler


P.S. Reeds car seems like a perfect test mule for trying different bolt ons.

Yes, we did.

I will try to get some more info out of him. FWIW they probably went to a track near Pelham, Alabama, so you can use that as an altitude reference.

He ran champion ported irons. E85 fuel. Turbotweak chip. PTC 9.5" non lock up, and I dont know what IC.

I would be all for sponsoring someone who would be willing to test these turbos on their car and provide info. I could give them these turbos for dealer cost with the stipulation that they test them at the track and report back.

Reeds car is a great test bed because his car is like the majority of Buick owner's.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 10 2018, 05:22:11 PM
Was my article explaining billet wheel technology not a good enough way to spend my time? Or the 3 hours I have spent on the phone today with customers regarding the G4 turbos?

I mean no offense, Sir, but I am literally writing these responses while laying on my front seat in between changing the spark plugs in my truck...techni cally I have no shirt on so my pasty white ass can get a tan in this 103 degree heat...but all the same, these responses are being written during breaks between cylinders... no more time is being spent on them than is required to type them.

I assure you, if I were one who wastes time on trying to write the perfect response, I would never get shit done because it would be perpetually under revision....lu ckily that is not me.

But to answer you- NO. I take no more time posting responses than it is required for my fingers to type them.

Your thoughts sure seemed to me to take a lot of time. Just seemed like you could better direct em towards a cam selection or setting up the bottom end of that cool guy engine. But it is your time and I'm not one to try to tell others what to do. I tried to insert a smilie to at least look like I'm being sarcastic. Oh well. Maybe you ponder stuff at a different rate than an old guy like me, so it doesn't take you much time. Or the fancy education schooled you to think quicker, I've read that John Kennedy was a speed reader and read several newspapers in the morning while having breakfast.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 10 2018, 05:27:10 PM
sounds pretty much a normal thing to me
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 05:31:26 PM
Reeds run with the 6765 was 11.17 at 20 PSI. You and I talked on the phone a long time ago about throwing different turbos on a stock stroke 109 with ported irons...as that's what 95 percent of what most are running. Can you provide any other data?

Temp/humidity
60 foot time
Brand of heads...any extra work to them?
E85, race gas, alky or pump gas?
Brand of torque convertor? LU or NL...tho I suspect NL.
Brand of intercooler


P.S. Reeds car seems like a perfect test mule for trying different bolt ons.

Yes, we did.

I will try to get some more info out of him. FWIW they probably went to a track near Pelham, Alabama, so you can use that as an altitude reference.

He ran champion ported irons. E85 fuel. Turbotweak chip. PTC 9.5" non lock up, and I dont know what IC.

I would be all for sponsoring someone who would be willing to test these turbos on their car and provide info. I could give them these turbos for dealer cost with the stipulation that they test them at the track and report back.

Reeds car is a great test bed because his car is like the majority of Buick owner's.

Thanks so much Tyler. Hope the business is doing well!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 10 2018, 05:38:09 PM
You might not be getting the sarcasm. But if it is the break time we can discuss more. I fully understand triple digit temps, wrenching and posting (smilie here) and enjoy all your responses. Not sure id enjoy them as much if you spend more time on them as there would be much more time in between. I am glad you came over here and are posting. Much more fun than watching paint dry( that is a little poke at guszgs) .

Keep up the good work and as I like to say, keep moving forward. And don't let that turbo Ta poster over on the big board get to ya. After the name calling I don't really think he deserves your help.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 10 2018, 05:38:26 PM
Reeds run with the 6765 was 11.17 at 20 PSI. You and I talked on the phone a long time ago about throwing different turbos on a stock stroke 109 with ported irons...as that's what 95 percent of what most are running. Can you provide any other data?

Temp/humidity
60 foot time
Brand of heads...any extra work to them?
E85, race gas, alky or pump gas?
Brand of torque convertor? LU or NL...tho I suspect NL.
Brand of intercooler


P.S. Reeds car seems like a perfect test mule for trying different bolt ons.

Yes, we did.

I will try to get some more info out of him. FWIW they probably went to a track near Pelham, Alabama, so you can use that as an altitude reference.

He ran champion ported irons. E85 fuel. Turbotweak chip. PTC 9.5" non lock up, and I dont know what IC.

I would be all for sponsoring someone who would be willing to test these turbos on their car and provide info. I could give them these turbos for dealer cost with the stipulation that they test them at the track and report back.

Reeds car is a great test bed because his car is like the majority of Buick owner's.

Thanks so much Tyler. Hope the business is doing well!

ANYtime Brad!!!

If I can get more info from Reed, I will post it.

I am hoping this G4 promotion will help get these turbos out into the Buick community and into hands of people that will really see just how incredible of a product these really are!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 05:40:13 PM
Was my article explaining billet wheel technology not a good enough way to spend my time? Or the 3 hours I have spent on the phone today with customers regarding the G4 turbos?

I mean no offense, Sir, but I am literally writing these responses while laying on my front seat in between changing the spark plugs in my truck...techni cally I have no shirt on so my pasty white ass can get a tan in this 103 degree heat...but all the same, these responses are being written during breaks between cylinders... no more time is being spent on them than is required to type them.

I assure you, if I were one who wastes time on trying to write the perfect response, I would never get shit done because it would be perpetually under revision....lu ckily that is not me.

But to answer you- NO. I take no more time posting responses than it is required for my fingers to type them.

Your thoughts sure seemed to me to take a lot of time. Just seemed like you could better direct em towards a cam selection or setting up the bottom end of that cool guy engine. But it is your time and I'm not one to try to tell others what to do. I tried to insert a smilie to at least look like I'm being sarcastic. Oh well. Maybe you ponder stuff at a different rate than an old guy like me, so it doesn't take you much time. Or the fancy education schooled you to think quicker, I've read that John Kennedy was a speed reader and read several newspapers in the morning while having breakfast.

You keep writing articles...and I'll keep reading them. Keep 'em dumbed down as much as you can.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 10 2018, 06:05:16 PM
I am pretty  sure most, if not all of us are finding this mentally invigorating. I don't claim to speak for TexasT but I know my brain needs a little longer theses days to both formulate clever insights and absorb knowledge, if you guys can formulate these solutions on the fly we will try to stay out of the way and enjoy.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 10 2018, 06:36:54 PM
I love solutions. Especially when they work.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: gusszgs on July 10 2018, 07:14:24 PM
I just sprayed my cadmium plated brake booster black cause I was told it looked silly and wasn't cool  :O gots to get my shyte together


Just watching it dry now  :icon_eyes: :D
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 07:51:45 PM
(I think we found Motorhead Mike's lost_at_birth twin)

Heh...

Lots of words to say: Cool guy parts. ;)

And Brad, your signature has been deemed to be too long.  So many stock parts listed... :D

I'm a vendors nightmare.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 10 2018, 08:09:00 PM
I just like to understand how things work and what the differences are between things like various turbos so I have enjoyed the thread.  I still read a book almost everyday...Kin dle is the greatest gift ever.  Most of the time, I don't read much heavyweight stuff, tho.  I can inhale a sci-fi book without having to think too much.

I go back to the days of big vacuum tube radios with long wave, broadcast, and short wave bands on the dial-not to mention cats whisker crystal sets.  I remember taking a vibrator from a car radio and hooking it up to an audio transformer powered by a six volt battery in a cigar box with a couple of contacts on the lid.  I gave it to the guy at the corner hardware store and it almost knocked him down.  He laughed, we laughed and I went home and told my Dad.  He did not laugh.  Seems like the guy had a heart attack and I might have killed him.  Got my butt beat for that.  I learned not to tell my Dad about funny things.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 10 2018, 09:11:09 PM
I love solutions. Especially when they work.

(https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--BwNX0hHZ--/t_Preview/b_rgb:ffffff,c_limit,f_jpg,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1495433965/production/designs/1616834_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 10 2018, 09:59:46 PM
Tyler, Reeds car comes in at 3807. Is that with him in it...or out? My car comes in at 3475...with me in it. Every 100 hundred pounds is worth a tenth of a second. I run my car at 23 PSI with the high and low 02's coming in at 800 and the timing at 32/26 with VP 112 with the 60 foot coming in at 1.70 and staging last and the car runs 7 flat all day at 100. You can do the math what that turbo would do in my car at 23 PSI...and 300-400 pounds lighter.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: phil_long on July 11 2018, 09:38:33 AM
Great thread
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 11 2018, 10:56:07 AM
I think we should start on exducers and exhaust housings now and how that influences the power band and converter stall speed and efficiency.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 11 2018, 11:23:09 AM
Nobody has even mentioned vgt's or twin scroll technology.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 11 2018, 11:25:21 AM
Nobody has even mentioned vgt's or twin scroll technology.
Actually, you did!  Twin scrolls are amazing, that is my next turbo.  I just don't want to redo the piping.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 11 2018, 12:29:46 PM
Totally unrelated - but I finally figured out the math in HPtuners to adjust for EQ Error during Power Enrichment.  Just have to tweak it to filter by RPM.  I love my WB02s in Lambda - the output is so simple.  Simple MAF tweaks under WOT here we come!

Stock ECM = Stock Chip, right? Right?! PS. I flash my own. ;)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 11 2018, 03:50:37 PM
http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-scroll-vs-single-scroll-turbo-test-the-great-divide/ (http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-scroll-vs-single-scroll-turbo-test-the-great-divide/)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 04:14:47 PM
I love solutions. Especially when they work.

(https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--BwNX0hHZ--/t_Preview/b_rgb:ffffff,c_limit,f_jpg,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1495433965/production/designs/1616834_1.jpg)

You might be shocked to know that I am a HUGE beer nerd...

As in, stand outside of breweries all night in line waiting for special beers to be released...

I bought my turbo by selling 5 bottles of rare beer for $1,350... 3 of them were worth $975 alone..
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 04:16:10 PM
Nobody has even mentioned vgt's or twin scroll technology.

Actually, you did!  Twin scrolls are amazing, that is my next turbo.  I just don't want to redo the piping.

You mean like these??
:)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 11 2018, 04:30:42 PM
Not a beer snob, but I do like to build things


...that build things. :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/earlbrown/LJstuff/IM002274.jpg)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 06:11:11 PM
Not a beer snob, but I do like to build things


...that build things. :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/earlbrown/LJstuff/IM002274.jpg)


Maybe it is because of my time spent at Humboldt state,,,but that sure does look like a giant bong....
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 11 2018, 06:30:29 PM
My neighbor thought the same thing when I was building it...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/earlbrown/LJstuff/IM002103.jpg)

There is a built in thumper in the bottom so it could be used as a bong as long as the low octane condensate drain is plugged.

It'd take one hellova set of lungs though.  lol
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 06:34:56 PM
I think we should start on exducers and exhaust housings now and how that influences the power band and converter stall speed and efficiency.


The exducer size isn't as critical as it used to be. The converter type, the level of port work on the heads, fuel type used, and camshaft selection play a more critical role on the spool up than the exducer size.


Even with a large exhaust housing, if those 4 parameters are optimized, you can still have a quick spooling turbo.




[/size]Tyler, Reeds car comes in at 3807. Is that with him in it...or out? My car comes in at 3475...with me in it. Every 100 hundred pounds is worth a tenth of a second. I run my car at 23 PSI with the high and low 02's coming in at 800 and the timing at 32/26 with VP 112 with the 60 foot coming in at 1.70 and staging last and the car runs 7 flat all day at 100. You can do the math what that turbo would do in my car at 23 PSI...and 300-400 pounds lighter.



If you had that turbo you'd be seriously screaming down the track... I'd love to see what you run with it!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 11 2018, 09:04:57 PM
Tyler...what brand of exhaust housing on Reeds turbo? Size? Any word on intercooler?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 09:33:09 PM
Tyler...what brand of exhaust housing on Reeds turbo? Size? Any word on intercooler?


For the 3 bolt exhaust housings it is similar to a PTE housing. I believe Reed and Limit actually get their housings from the same place. Typically .63 and .85 AR.


For the 4 bolt housings there are too many to type...you have open housings, twin scroll housings, etc...


Intercooler... dude..I luv ya man, but I won't have anything for you until my engine is built and in the car... UNLESS someone is willing to be sent the fmic and make the mounts and piping, and I will pay them to do so...


The Treadstone FMIC guy is taking a long, long time...shit better be cheap for the piping...


I'm starting to work on the intercooler article btw...this thing may take some time...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 11 2018, 09:36:23 PM
Curious as to the IC Reed has in his car for the run he made. My bad...lol! Reed pretty much has the same mule I have. You can see where I'm going with this. Doing my homework...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 09:50:09 PM
Curious as to the IC Reed has in his car for the run he made. My bad...lol! Reed pretty much has the same mule I have. You can see where I'm going with this. Doing my homework...


I have to ask him some questions on a turbo I sent in for a rebuild. If I remember, I will ask him for you.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 09:53:46 PM
So I am writing this Intercooler article, and I am wondering what you guys would like me to touch on in this thing?


So far I have the definitions and explanations of a lot of the common terms associated with intercoolers, but nothing else.


Any input for what you'd like to see is welcome.


Thank you.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 11 2018, 09:55:53 PM
Curious as to the IC Reed has in his car for the run he made. My bad...lol! Reed pretty much has the same mule I have. You can see where I'm going with this. Doing my homework...


I have to ask him some questions on a turbo I sent in for a rebuild. If I remember, I will ask him for you.

Thanks. Will check my e-mail in the morning.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 11 2018, 09:57:48 PM
Tradeoffs? backpressure vs?  effect of the air mass? myths?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 11 2018, 10:03:24 PM
Tradeoffs? backpressure vs?  effect of the air mass? myths?


Tradeoffs? What do you mean, specifically? Could you please elaborate?


Effect of the air mass.....as it relates to what? What do you mean by that?


Myths? I apologize, but at the moment I can't recall any myths about intercoolers.. ....do you mean like the "bigger is better" idea? Or like to "bigger piping is better" idea?




So far I have the following sections with definitions and explanations;
1) Diffusion
2) Boundary Layer
3) Pressure Drop
4) Thermal Efficiency
5) Internal Flow Area


After that I don't have anything. So if you want me to discuss one of your points you listed, if you could please elaborate more on what you meant, it helps me to know what I would need/want to write about, and how I'd like to approach the subject matter.


Thank you,
Tyler
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 12 2018, 09:03:00 AM
I don't know if things we think are Myths- I was hoping you would tell us :)

Does one get lag from a large mass of air sitting in long runs of pipes (FMIC?)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 12 2018, 01:59:37 PM
I don't know if things we think are Myths- I was hoping you would tell us :)

Does one get lag from a large mass of air sitting in long runs of pipes (FMIC?)

Myth: Man with hole in pocket feels cocky all day.

Fact: I have never done this...yet.


Like those kind of myths?


...kidding
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 12 2018, 02:37:49 PM
My neighbor thought the same thing when I was building it...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/earlbrown/LJstuff/IM002103.jpg)

There is a built in thumper in the bottom so it could be used as a bong as long as the low octane condensate drain is plugged.

It'd take one hellova set of lungs though.  lol

I've come across a female or two with "huge Lungs" and I bet earl has too.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 23 2018, 08:47:16 PM
First pic of the new WORK G4 62mm compressor wheel..


Checkout the vertical lines on the compressor blades. This is a sign of a 100% Point-Milled wheel.


Also look at how the blade swoops down and has overhang/extends past the very bottom/base of the wheel. This is a sign of Extended Tip Technology being used. Look at the angle of that the blade takes from the Extended Tip towards the base of the wheel...this angle has a direct affect on the spool up characteristic s, breadth of the powderband, and part-throttle responsiveness ..


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/vsxvx0.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmvsxvx0j)


These wheels are about to upset some PTE fan's feelings... :D
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 23 2018, 09:07:51 PM
How close is this to the 6262 wheel...as a comparison.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 23 2018, 10:50:43 PM
How close is this to the 6262 wheel...as a comparison.

Until I have dyno sheets or ET slips in front of me, I can only speculate based on the design of the wheel.

That being said, I know Reed really focused on the spoolup characteristic s of these new turbos, and their off-idle and part-throttle responsiveness .

I don't want to say anything definitive until I hear back from Reed, but I would wager these would be right up there with Precision's GEN 2 CEA 62mm wheel, or Garrett's Gen 2 GTX wheels.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 23 2018, 11:00:25 PM
Basically what I'm asking is can I spool this WORK G4 62mm wheel with the AC 16930 convertor I already have in the car. I run a .63 Precision exhaust housing. What exhaust housings are you offering?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 24 2018, 08:20:20 AM
That is some pretty fancy machine work porn. So, forgive my ignorance(I run a stock turbo), but I guess these are a "replacement part for one of the "fancy" turbos? I see it is 62mm I'm guessing you need a matching housing to put this wheel in, or can it be swapped into other stuff? Is there a fancy replacement wheel that matches it for the other side of the turbo?

Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 24 2018, 11:26:52 AM
That is some pretty fancy machine work porn. So, forgive my ignorance(I run a stock turbo), but I guess these are a "replacement part for one of the "fancy" turbos? I see it is 62mm I'm guessing you need a matching housing to put this wheel in, or can it be swapped into other stuff? Is there a fancy replacement wheel that matches it for the other side of the turbo?


This is a wheel for one of the new G4 turbos, or it can be put into a rebuilt turbo as well, provided the turbo has a similar shaft size (for example, it isn't one of the old Turbonetics large-shaft units) to the G4 units.


WORK will actually machine your housing to fit this wheel, if you were to get your turbo rebuilt, for example. So you are able to put this wheel into other turbos besides the G4 units.


There are new turbine wheels for this turbo, but I do not have any photos of it yet. I know Reed uses some of the GTW turbine wheels for the G4 turbos.


I hope that answered all your questions. Please let me know if I didn't address anything.... I'm at Tom's house right now and his crazy ass has me up at 630am...I hate him just a little bit right now... (completely kidding, the dude is one of the coolest fucking people I've met)


[/size]Basically what I'm asking is can I spool this WORK G4 62mm wheel with the AC 16930 convertor I already have in the car. I run a .63 Precision exhaust housing. What exhaust housings are you offering?



If it is a "Real" Art Carr 3000 stall, then yes. From what I've gathered, and I know you will be able to set me straight on this so please correct me where I am wrong (because I am sure I will be)..but aren't those AC 16930's essentially a PTC 9.5" knockoff? Or maybe visa-versa?


Either way, Reed recommends to start with a 3,200 stall as a baseline for any turbo he sells, assuming you are using a PTC 9.5" NLU, though. From there, we can work with Dusty Bradford to fix any spooling characteristic s/stall speed required by your setup, but the 3,200 will give a good baseline impression.


If your car is spooling a PTE 6262 with that converter, then it will be able to spool this turbo easily, in both the journal and ball bearing versions. The ball bearing version will spool even faster, especially with the supporting modifications (ported cylinder heads, E85 for fuel, larger than stock camshaft, good torque converter -like a PTC 9.5" NLU) to the car.


We offer a .63 and .85 AR turbine housing for the Buick 3-bolt housings.


If you decide to go 4 bolt, we have a TON of different configurations .


I hope this answered your questions. If not, please let me know.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 24 2018, 12:10:29 PM
Basically what I'm asking is can I spool this WORK G4 62mm wheel with the AC 16930 convertor I already have in the car. I run a .63 Precision exhaust housing. What exhaust housings are you offering?


If it is a "Real" Art Carr 3000 stall, then yes. From what I've gathered, and I know you will be able to set me straight on this so please correct me where I am wrong (because I am sure I will be)..but aren't those AC 16930's essentially a PTC 9.5" knockoff? Or maybe visa-versa?


Either way, Reed recommends to start with a 3,200 stall as a baseline for any turbo he sells, assuming you are using a PTC 9.5" NLU, though. From there, we can work with Dusty Bradford to fix any spooling characteristic s/stall speed required by your setup, but the 3,200 will give a good baseline impression.

If your car is spooling a PTE 6262 with that converter, then it will be able to spool this turbo easily, in both the journal and ball bearing versions. The ball bearing version will spool even faster, especially with the supporting modifications (ported cylinder heads, E85 for fuel, larger than stock camshaft, good torque converter -like a PTC 9.5" NLU) to the car.

We offer a .63 and .85 AR turbine housing for the Buick 3-bolt housings.

If you decide to go 4 bolt, we have a TON of different configurations .

See... this is what pisses me off about the Buick community - stuck in the past with a total reluctance to move past known-knowns established 20 years ago.  ScanMasters, using NB02s to tune under load, tuning with fuel pressure, Caspers knock gauges, a limited selection of 3-bolt turbos, antiquated converter theory and technology, internal wastegate downpipes with stupid little rod actuators, the ever loving fear of BOVs, and on and on...

Why not get a nice new converter that flashes to 4000rpm, has more efficient turbines and stators (for low speed driveability and better fluid coupling at the big end), and lock-up capability?  Why not chop the damn 3-bolt flange off and get something that seals well? They literally sell CNC 4-bolt flanges on eBay for $50 that will adapt a round pipe to a square flange (I know I have one - and it is gorgeous) and suddenly your world of performance options grows exponentially.  Why not add a 44mm WG, and slam a v-banded downpipe together with some eBay parts and Harbor Freight welder?

Risk and effort - that's why.  People their love of a risk-free bolt-on culture.  Take a damn welding class.

I think BoostedRPS needs to make package with a new PS exhaust manifold with a 4-bolt flange and external WG flange on it, offer up a bunch of decent T4-type turbos, a downpipe with an external wastegate dump tube, a spec converter, and a good intercooler - might have to have a lay-away payment plan.

Rant over.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 24 2018, 01:05:54 PM
Basically what I'm asking is can I spool this WORK G4 62mm wheel with the AC 16930 convertor I already have in the car. I run a .63 Precision exhaust housing. What exhaust housings are you offering?


If it is a "Real" Art Carr 3000 stall, then yes. From what I've gathered, and I know you will be able to set me straight on this so please correct me where I am wrong (because I am sure I will be)..but aren't those AC 16930's essentially a PTC 9.5" knockoff? Or maybe visa-versa?


Either way, Reed recommends to start with a 3,200 stall as a baselinefor any turbo he sells, assuming you are using a PTC 9.5" NLU, though. From there, we can work with Dusty Bradford to fix any spooling characteristic s/stall speed required by your setup, but the 3,200 will give a good baseline impression.

If your car is spooling a PTE 6262 with that converter, then it will be able to spool this turbo easily, in both the journal and ball bearing versions. The ball bearing version will spool even faster, especially with the supporting modifications (ported cylinder heads, E85 for fuel, larger than stock camshaft, good torque converter -like a PTC 9.5" NLU) to the car.

We offer a .63 and .85 AR turbine housing for the Buick 3-bolt housings.

If you decide to go 4 bolt, we have a TON of different configurations .

See... this is what pisses me off about the Buick community - stuck in the past with a total reluctance to move past known-knowns established 20 years ago.  ScanMasters, using NB02s to tune under load, tuning with fuel pressure, Caspers knock gauges, a limited selection of 3-bolt turbos, antiquated converter theory and technology, internal wastegate downpipes with stupid little rod actuators, the ever loving fear of BOVs, and on and on...

Why not get a nice new converter that flashes to 4000rpm, has more efficient turbines and stators (for low speed driveability and better fluid coupling at the big end), and lock-up capability?  Why not chop the damn 3-bolt flange off and get something that seals well? They literally sell CNC 4-bolt flanges on eBay for $50 that will adapt a round pipe to a square flange (I know I have one - and it is gorgeous) and suddenly your world of performance options grows exponentially.  Why not add a 44mm WG, and slam a v-banded downpipe together with some eBay parts and Harbor Freight welder?

Risk and effort - that's why.  People their love of a risk-free bolt-on culture.  Take a damn welding class.

I think BoostedRPS needs to make package with a new PS exhaust manifold with a 4-bolt flange and external WG flange on it, offer up a bunch of decent T4-type turbos, a downpipe with an external wastegate dump tube, a spec converter, and a good intercooler - might have to have a lay-away payment plan.

Rant over.


I actually do have a package deal for;
*Gee M Racing Street Headers in a 4-bolt, external wastegate configuration.
*PTC 9.5" converter that will be spec'd by Dusty Bradford (I would have you order direct through him, or I could 3way call with you if requested).
*Turbosmart external wastegate for the headers.
*If you go with a Borg Warner 4-bolt housing, Gee M Racing is producing a V-band downpipe to fit in our cars for it. But it is ONLY for Borg Warner 4-bolt housings.
*ANY Turbo WORK Turbo offers; Garrett GTX Gen 2's, GTW's.. or Borg Warner SXE's or EFR's (although I wouldn't recommend these)... or WORK Rebuilt units, standard Billet Units, or G4 units..
*Treadstone and Bell front mount intercooler cores. Currently we do not have the mounting flanges and piping made for these, but we are working on them.
*We also have the only stock location liquid-to-air intercooler complete kit available for the TR.


That is an expensive kit, just from the quantity of quality parts included, but if you were to put a "kit" like that on your car, assuming your engine and transmission could take it, you're talking about bolting on parts to your car that could easily...easily drop your car's ET up to 2 seconds, assuming your engine and trans can support it.




On a side note...if you go 4 bolt flange, you might as well go Twin Scroll. I know the cost is more because of running dual wastegates, but the benefits in performance far outweigh the slight cost increase..
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 24 2018, 01:15:23 PM
The ptc would be the knock off but I doubt they would like being called that. Art Carr has been doing these cars pretty much since new. The 9" nlu works great at the track but I didn't find it as streetable as i wanted back when. I'd look at the Dave H 3021 or something along those lines, or Mr bison has some pretty opinionated stances on converters. Or Mr Bradford. He reps a real nice unit.

This talk of four bolt is very interesting. I might look at this Billy thing and cut up one of my pass side units and weld on a patch and se how that might work. Ever really thought about it before.

Good stuff. Very thought provoking. Now I need to justify a tig machine.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 24 2018, 03:44:44 PM
Basically what I'm asking is can I spool this WORK G4 62mm wheel with the AC 16930 convertor I already have in the car. I run a .63 Precision exhaust housing. What exhaust housings are you offering?


If it is a "Real" Art Carr 3000 stall, then yes. From what I've gathered, and I know you will be able to set me straight on this so please correct me where I am wrong (because I am sure I will be)..but aren't those AC 16930's essentially a PTC 9.5" knockoff? Or maybe visa-versa?


Either way, Reed recommends to start with a 3,200 stall as a baselinefor any turbo he sells, assuming you are using a PTC 9.5" NLU, though. From there, we can work with Dusty Bradford to fix any spooling characteristic s/stall speed required by your setup, but the 3,200 will give a good baseline impression.

If your car is spooling a PTE 6262 with that converter, then it will be able to spool this turbo easily, in both the journal and ball bearing versions. The ball bearing version will spool even faster, especially with the supporting modifications (ported cylinder heads, E85 for fuel, larger than stock camshaft, good torque converter -like a PTC 9.5" NLU) to the car.

We offer a .63 and .85 AR turbine housing for the Buick 3-bolt housings.

If you decide to go 4 bolt, we have a TON of different configurations .

See... this is what pisses me off about the Buick community - stuck in the past with a total reluctance to move past known-knowns established 20 years ago.  ScanMasters, using NB02s to tune under load, tuning with fuel pressure, Caspers knock gauges, a limited selection of 3-bolt turbos, antiquated converter theory and technology, internal wastegate downpipes with stupid little rod actuators, the ever loving fear of BOVs, and on and on...

Why not get a nice new converter that flashes to 4000rpm, has more efficient turbines and stators (for low speed driveability and better fluid coupling at the big end), and lock-up capability?  Why not chop the damn 3-bolt flange off and get something that seals well? They literally sell CNC 4-bolt flanges on eBay for $50 that will adapt a round pipe to a square flange (I know I have one - and it is gorgeous) and suddenly your world of performance options grows exponentially.  Why not add a 44mm WG, and slam a v-banded downpipe together with some eBay parts and Harbor Freight welder?

Risk and effort - that's why.  People their love of a risk-free bolt-on culture.  Take a damn welding class.

I think BoostedRPS needs to make package with a new PS exhaust manifold with a 4-bolt flange and external WG flange on it, offer up a bunch of decent T4-type turbos, a downpipe with an external wastegate dump tube, a spec converter, and a good intercooler - might have to have a lay-away payment plan.

Rant over.


I actually do have a package deal for;
*Gee M Racing Street Headers in a 4-bolt, external wastegate configuration.
*PTC 9.5" converter that will be spec'd by Dusty Bradford (I would have you order direct through him, or I could 3way call with you if requested).
*Turbosmart external wastegate for the headers.
*If you go with a Borg Warner 4-bolt housing, Gee M Racing is producing a V-band downpipe to fit in our cars for it. But it is ONLY for Borg Warner 4-bolt housings.
*ANY Turbo WORK Turbo offers; Garrett GTX Gen 2's, GTW's.. or Borg Warner SXE's or EFR's (although I wouldn't recommend these)... or WORK Rebuilt units, standard Billet Units, or G4 units..
*Treadstone and Bell front mount intercooler cores. Currently we do not have the mounting flanges and piping made for these, but we are working on them.
*We also have the only stock location liquid-to-air intercooler complete kit available for the TR.

That is an expensive kit, just from the quantity of quality parts included, but if you were to put a "kit" like that on your car, assuming your engine and transmission could take it, you're talking about bolting on parts to your car that could easily...easily drop your car's ET up to 2 seconds, assuming your engine and trans can support it.

On a side note...if you go 4 bolt flange, you might as well go Twin Scroll. I know the cost is more because of running dual wastegates, but the benefits in performance far outweigh the slight cost increase..
Huh. Go figure. Well there ya go.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 24 2018, 05:15:18 PM
Basically what I'm asking is can I spool this WORK G4 62mm wheel with the AC 16930 convertor I already have in the car. I run a .63 Precision exhaust housing. What exhaust housings are you offering?


If it is a "Real" Art Carr 3000 stall, then yes. From what I've gathered, and I know you will be able to set me straight on this so please correct me where I am wrong (because I am sure I will be)..but aren't those AC 16930's essentially a PTC 9.5" knockoff? Or maybe visa-versa?


Either way, Reed recommends to start with a 3,200 stall as a baselinefor any turbo he sells, assuming you are using a PTC 9.5" NLU, though. From there, we can work with Dusty Bradford to fix any spooling characteristic s/stall speed required by your setup, but the 3,200 will give a good baseline impression.

If your car is spooling a PTE 6262 with that converter, then it will be able to spool this turbo easily, in both the journal and ball bearing versions. The ball bearing version will spool even faster, especially with the supporting modifications (ported cylinder heads, E85 for fuel, larger than stock camshaft, good torque converter -like a PTC 9.5" NLU) to the car.

We offer a .63 and .85 AR turbine housing for the Buick 3-bolt housings.

If you decide to go 4 bolt, we have a TON of different configurations .

See... this is what pisses me off about the Buick community - stuck in the past with a total reluctance to move past known-knowns established 20 years ago.  ScanMasters, using NB02s to tune under load, tuning with fuel pressure, Caspers knock gauges, a limited selection of 3-bolt turbos, antiquated converter theory and technology, internal wastegate downpipes with stupid little rod actuators, the ever loving fear of BOVs, and on and on...

Why not get a nice new converter that flashes to 4000rpm, has more efficient turbines and stators (for low speed driveability and better fluid coupling at the big end), and lock-up capability?  Why not chop the damn 3-bolt flange off and get something that seals well? They literally sell CNC 4-bolt flanges on eBay for $50 that will adapt a round pipe to a square flange (I know I have one - and it is gorgeous) and suddenly your world of performance options grows exponentially.  Why not add a 44mm WG, and slam a v-banded downpipe together with some eBay parts and Harbor Freight welder?

Risk and effort - that's why.  People their love of a risk-free bolt-on culture.  Take a damn welding class.

I think BoostedRPS needs to make package with a new PS exhaust manifold with a 4-bolt flange and external WG flange on it, offer up a bunch of decent T4-type turbos, a downpipe with an external wastegate dump tube, a spec converter, and a good intercooler - might have to have a lay-away payment plan.

Rant over.


I actually do have a package deal for;
*Gee M Racing Street Headers in a 4-bolt, external wastegate configuration.
*PTC 9.5" converter that will be spec'd by Dusty Bradford (I would have you order direct through him, or I could 3way call with you if requested).
*Turbosmart external wastegate for the headers.
*If you go with a Borg Warner 4-bolt housing, Gee M Racing is producing a V-band downpipe to fit in our cars for it. But it is ONLY for Borg Warner 4-bolt housings.
*ANY Turbo WORK Turbo offers; Garrett GTX Gen 2's, GTW's.. or Borg Warner SXE's or EFR's (although I wouldn't recommend these)... or WORK Rebuilt units, standard Billet Units, or G4 units..
*Treadstone and Bell front mount intercooler cores. Currently we do not have the mounting flanges and piping made for these, but we are working on them.
*We also have the only stock location liquid-to-air intercooler complete kit available for the TR.

That is an expensive kit, just from the quantity of quality parts included, but if you were to put a "kit" like that on your car, assuming your engine and transmission could take it, you're talking about bolting on parts to your car that could easily...easily drop your car's ET up to 2 seconds, assuming your engine and trans can support it.

On a side note...if you go 4 bolt flange, you might as well go Twin Scroll. I know the cost is more because of running dual wastegates, but the benefits in performance far outweigh the slight cost increase..
Huh. Go figure. Well there ya go.


Thing is, I've never had anyone willing to spend that amount of money at one time to overhaul their car in such a manner.


Typically the most money spent is either a turbo and headers, or billet rotating assembly.


[/size]The ptc would be the knock off but I doubt they would like being called that. Art Carr has been doing these cars pretty much since new. The 9" nlu works great at the track but I didn't find it as streetable as i wanted back when. I'd look at the Dave H 3021 or something along those lines, or Mr bison has some pretty opinionated stances on converters. Or Mr Bradford. He reps a real nice unit.This talk of four bolt is very interesting. I might look at this Billy thing and cut up one of my pass side units and weld on a patch and se how that might work. Ever really thought about it before. Good stuff. Very thought provoking. Now I need to justify a tig machine.



We get our converters from Dusty Bradford. He hasn't steered me wrong yet.


If you do go four bolt, I strongly suggest looking into the twin scroll design.... it really has a ton of benefits that can really change how a turbo responds in a car..
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 24 2018, 09:01:30 PM
This is why I run stock junk...cuz it pisses people off. I drag the most from the least. I'm quite happy being a vendors nightmare.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 24 2018, 10:11:03 PM
This is why I run stock junk...cuz it pisses people off. I drag the most from the least. I'm quite happy being a vendors nightmare.
Then why the interest in a new turbo?
I get there are many ways to skin a cat.  However, if I was new to this or looking to upgrade from old tech - it would be well worth the leap into contemporary parts, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 24 2018, 10:48:51 PM
I didn't say I was looking for a new turbo. The 6262 is the go to turbo...and I'm asking questions for those that would like to step up to one with this new wheel. Bison cracked the 9's with a 6265...a stock short block...and pair of heads. Should be enuf turbo for most.

As far as Arts convertors go...a used one can be had for a the price of a cup of coffee...as everyone has jumped ship to PTC. Slip rate for this 16930 comes in in the single digits...and I can get it flash off the line to 4 grand with minor low gear tuning for 1.5x launches.


Maftpro and Gen 2 went the way of the dodo...Erics 5.7 chip is still here.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 25 2018, 08:29:13 AM
This is why I run stock junk...cuz it pisses people off. I drag the most from the least. I'm quite happy being a vendors nightmare.


wait What? lol
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 25 2018, 09:48:51 AM
I didn't say I was looking for a new turbo. The 6262 is the go to turbo...and I'm asking questions for those that would like to step up to one with this new wheel. Bison cracked the 9's with a 6265...a stock short block...and pair of heads. Should be enuf turbo for most.

As far as Arts convertors go...a used one can be had for a the price of a cup of coffee...as everyone has jumped ship to PTC. Slip rate for this 16930 comes in in the single digits...and I can get it flash off the line to 4 grand with minor low gear tuning for 1.5x launches.


Maftpro and Gen 2 went the way of the dodo...Erics 5.7 chip is still here.

So then why is BoostedRPS wasting his time here developing new parts and combinations if we've had it figured out for a decade or more?

If he is going to be successful somebody is going to need to step up and buy in with their dollar votes, and shun accepted practices along the way.

With the relatively narrow powerbands these little V6s suffer from they can use all the help they can get as it relates to spool time, torque multiplication, rpm drop management between gears, and the ability to have 0% converter slippage.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 25 2018, 10:19:15 AM
What is the proper way to calculate converter slippage.[ It's not some theoretical calculated number from a powelogger]
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Top Speed on July 25 2018, 10:32:01 AM
It is hard to beat what is already proven to work. I don't think that a faster spool up time will help me any as I am already traction limited when the boost quickly comes up to 25 psi.  I am intrigued however with the dual scroll turbos and newer compressor wheels...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: nocooler on July 25 2018, 06:43:31 PM
I like the calculators here:
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/racing-calculators (http://www.tciauto.com/tc/racing-calculators)
Wallace racing has a bunch too

Edit: converter slip is a calculated number engine rpm vs driveshaft rpm, tci calculator gives more variables to play with.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 25 2018, 06:51:18 PM
The one PowerLogger is not terrible either as long as you calibrate the constants
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 25 2018, 07:13:23 PM
What do you use for tire height?
A different type of tire will have a different height at any given speed and will yield  a different slip %. That's ok to compare 1 converter to another. but not 100% accurate. If you are logging driveshaft rpm then you are heading in the right direction.


Also on that page it would seem to infer changing tire size changes actual gear ratio.
What do the numbers mean eg 411.and how does tire size affect that.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 25 2018, 07:31:05 PM
It is hard to beat what is already proven to work. I don't think that a faster spool up time will help me any as I am already traction limited when the boost quickly comes up to 25 psi.  I am intrigued however with the dual scroll turbos and newer compressor wheels...


You are absolutely correct. Tried and true is hard to beat if you are looking at modifying your car, on a budget, and trying to determine where you should spend your money.


This is why we also sell the older turbos, like the TE60, TE44 (although I prefer to substitute a billet 60mm compressor wheel since there isn't an increase in cost for the customer), TE62, etc.


If you are traction limited then your suspension needs work before you add any go-fast parts...in my opinion, that is.


Twin scroll turbos are not new in the world of turbos, just new to us in the Buick world since we seem to look at change as if it was the end of the world, and resist it as such..


Have you read the article I wrote on the new turbo wheels? If you are interested in the new compressor wheels, I would strongly encourage you to take a look at the article.


Link: https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/06/20/Turbocharger-Cast-and-Billet-Compressor-Wheels--Not-all-Billet-Wheels-are-Made-EqualDont-Overpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo (https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/06/20/Turbocharger-Cast-and-Billet-Compressor-Wheels--Not-all-Billet-Wheels-are-Made-EqualDont-Overpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo)




I didn't say I was looking for a new turbo. The 6262 is the go to turbo...and I'm asking questions for those that would like to step up to one with this new wheel. Bison cracked the 9's with a 6265...a stock short block...and pair of heads. Should be enuf turbo for most.As far as Arts convertors go...a used one can be had for a the price of a cup of coffee...as everyone has jumped ship to PTC. Slip rate for this 16930 comes in in the single digits...and I can get it flash off the line to 4 grand with minor low gear tuning for 1.5x launches. Maftpro and Gen 2 went the way of the dodo...Erics 5.7 chip is still here.

So then why is BoostedRPS wasting his time here developing new parts and combinations if we've had it figured out for a decade or more?If he is going to be successful somebody is going to need to step up and buy in with their dollar votes, and shun accepted practices along the way.With the relatively narrow powerbands these little V6s suffer from they can use all the help they can get as it relates to spool time, torque multiplication, rpm drop management between gears, and the ability to have 0% converter slippage.



I do have a name, in case you were curious... it is Tyler :)


I do not consider myself as "wasting" time answering Brad's questions. I view Brad's questions as representative of what many people may be curious about, but fear posting and asking the question, or may not know exactly what questions to ask. I think Brad is helpful with his questions because it poses a lot of questions that beckon answers which address common concerns or ideologies that may be resistant or curious about these new turbos and what benefits they have, or why they are worth their various prices.


I have been giving huge discounts to anyone willing to try one of these new G4 turbos, or a WORK Turbo in general. I know the more people that have experience with these turbos, the more word will get out as to their performance, and people will see that PTE isn't the only viable option anymore.


This is my open invitation to anyone on IhadaV8: If you are willing to give one of these new turbos a shot, I will give you my dealer pricing, effectively "sponsoring" you, as long as you can provide real-world data on the turbo's performance relatively soon after you receive it. This means dyno sheets, ET slips, etc.




I didn't say I was looking for a new turbo. The 6262 is the go to turbo...and I'm asking questions for those that would like to step up to one with this new wheel. Bison cracked the 9's with a 6265...a stock short block...and pair of heads. Should be enuf turbo for most.As far as Arts convertors go...a used one can be had for a the price of a cup of coffee...as everyone has jumped ship to PTC. Slip rate for this 16930 comes in in the single digits...and I can get it flash off the line to 4 grand with minor low gear tuning for 1.5x launches. Maftpro and Gen 2 went the way of the dodo...Erics 5.7 chip is still here.



We plan on shooting for a 9.9x with a 6262 G4S turbo on my engine once it is built...I think with the right tune and 60ft, it is possible. Especially if we are using a twin scroll housing.


FWIW I like the Gen 2...I still think it is a great piece of equipment!




This is why I run stock junk...cuz it pisses people off. I drag the most from the least. I'm quite happy being a vendors nightmare.
Then why the interest in a new turbo?I get there are many ways to skin a cat.  However, if I was new to this or looking to upgrade from old tech - it would be well worth the leap into contemporary parts, in my opinion.



Are you saying that the cost for new turbos, compared to old turbos, IS worth it? Or is NOT?



This is why I run stock junk...cuz it pisses people off. I drag the most from the least. I'm quite happy being a vendors nightmare.


I would call myself a vendor and I don't consider you as a nightmare?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 25 2018, 08:07:56 PM
I'll throw out a disagreement with the tried and true being difficult to beat. Expensive, probably but if you have good ideas and know how to execute them fun is more the adjective I would use. If nothing new worked top fuel would have never gotten to the fives, fours, threes and then a shortened track. We wouldn't have nine sec cars coming out of a dealership. If the race was already decided no one would race. We do it to have fun or at least I do. And the people. If you aren't meeting people at the track or other gtg you are definitely missing out.

The run of the mill is for the unimaginative. I drive a Buick because it is different(and my grandmother drove em). I wrench in my own because I cant afford to be a checkbook hot rodder. And I enjoy doing it. I do understand some don't have the desire, the place or the skills to wrench but that ain't me.

I'm glad Tyler has taken up selling stuff for my thirty yr old beater. Once he gets going he will probably forget us little guys but that is ok. He will do well because he has the drive to get there. Make sure you are making money as my dad used to tell me, you can stay home and not make money. No sense in going out and not making any. 
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 25 2018, 08:26:38 PM
I think the guys on a shoestring budget often do better...as they have to research every last thing to get the best bang for the buck. Throwing money at these cars doesn't work...as many have tried...and failed. I've watched Grumpy from day one...and learned early on that the stock junk...if kept out of detonation...i s incredibly durable.

Other than Steve Wood, I doubt anyone else has kept track of the testing I've done and data I've posted over the years.

You have to get out to the track and test...often. Swilling Timmes coffee and scarfing down donuts and staring under hoods won't learn you anything.

Game changers for these cars were the introduction of high flow turbos...and the PTC 9.5 inch NL convertor. Tyler can hook you up with both. I'm interested to see data on the new IC Tyler is working on.

I'm keeping an eye on Patrick Rubio...and what he does at BG. If he does what I think he'll do...then I'll be stepping up my program.









Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 25 2018, 09:01:05 PM
Throwing money at these cars doesn't work...as many have tried...and failed.



Throwing money at ANY problem never works.   ...and only makes things worse 99% of the time.


    Unless you're a divorce lawyer. Those guys figured it out.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 25 2018, 09:36:58 PM

 Throwing money at these cars doesn't work...as many have tried...and failed.




Throwing money at ANY problem never works.   ...and only makes things worse 99% of the time.


    Unless you're a divorce lawyer. Those guys figured it out.



.... "Boosted RPS....Attorne ys At Law" !!!


I think I may need to rethink my choice of vocation... hahahaha






I think the guys on a shoestring budget often do better...as they have to research every last thing to get the best bang for the buck. Throwing money at these cars doesn't work...as many have tried...and failed. I've watched Grumpy from day one...and learned early on that the stock junk...if kept out of detonation...i s incredibly durable. Other than Steve Wood, I doubt anyone else has kept track of the testing I've done and data I've posted over the years. You have to get out to the track and test...often. Swilling Timmes coffee and scarfing down donuts and staring under hoods won't learn you anything.Game changers for these cars were the introduction of high flow turbos...and the PTC 9.5 inch NL convertor. Tyler can hook you up with both. I'm interested to see data on the new IC Tyler is working on. I'm keeping an eye on Patrick Rubio...and what he does at BG. If he does what I think he'll do...then I'll be stepping up my program.



I totally agree that the guys on a shoestring budget are the ones who really try to push the boundaries of what is possible because they have to get every ounce of performance out of the parts they have, since they cannot afford to purchase things at their desire.


I've tried to take that outlook- of doing as much research as possible (within reason, in my case) and apply it to the parts that I carry and offer. I'm not taking credit for the design of all these parts  (only the ones I directly worked on) but I will take credit for embracing and helping promote the parts that aim to maximize performance through utilization of new technologies or design strategies without breaking the bank or being obscenely more expensive than similar parts.


This is why I promote WORK Turbo so much...they offer performance levels you would obtain from a PTE turbo, for similar or less costs. If you compare what PTE has to offer, as a whole, against what WORK has to offer, I really do not see why anyone would go with a PTE unit...


Reed has done the research and has 25+ years of real world experience testing and building turbos for these cars, which not many people-regardless if they are turbo builders or not- can lay claim to. He knows what works, what doesn't...what will last, and what will eventually break.


The quality of internal parts he uses..and I'm not talking about just the G4 line, I am talking about the quality of parts used in every single turbo he builds, whether it is a "Rebuilt" turbo, or a brand new G4, or a custom S4E unit, are superior than ANYTHING Precision has to offer, bar-none.


Reed doesn't have a huge bankroll, or some crazy investor that can drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on tooling on a whim. He has had to figure out what wheel designs work (no pun intended) along all parameters; spool up, power ouput, powerband, longevity, durability, etc. through researching and testing his theories. What we have now is someone with almost 3 DECADES of turbo-building experience that knows from personal testing and research, what designs will perform and what designs won't.


Because Reed (WORK Turbos for those who don't know that Reed is the owner) IS the little guy on a shoe-string budget, and learned more from his experiences and testing that I could ever hope to, it is a big reason and driving force as to why his turbos perform as incredible as they do....his LACK of bankroll has forced him to learn what creates a superior wheel, and what a perfect turbocharger for XYZ engine/car setup would look like..and bring that all to fruition.


Sorry for the long rant..it's just that the type of person you described IS WORK Turbochargers and what has made them so successful at what they do, even with their small budget and production numbers compared to the larger companies..


As for my IC testing...I am going to talk to Duttweiler when I drop the engine off and ask him if we could put MAP sensors on either side of the IC core in the piping so that I can measure pressure drop across the core as we do our dyno testing.


I drop the engine off in September, so I will let you know what he says when I do!


And yes, I can provide you with a PTC 9.5" NLU converter and a high-flow turbo! And if you are a member of IhadaV8 then you will get special pricing as well! (badass discounts on everything possible)


I'll throw out a disagreement with the tried and true being difficult to beat. Expensive, probably but if you have good ideas and know how to execute them fun is more the adjective I would use. If nothing new worked top fuel would have never gotten to the fives, fours, threes and then a shortened track. We wouldn't have nine sec cars coming out of a dealership. If the race was already decided no one would race. We do it to have fun or at least I do. And the people. If you aren't meeting people at the track or other gtg you are definitely missing out. The run of the mill is for the unimaginative. I drive a Buick because it is different(and my grandmother drove em). I wrench in my own because I cant afford to be a checkbook hot rodder. And I enjoy doing it. I do understand some don't have the desire, the place or the skills to wrench but that ain't me. I'm glad Tyler has taken up selling stuff for my thirty yr old beater. Once he gets going he will probably forget us little guys but that is ok. He will do well because he has the drive to get there. Make sure you are making money as my dad used to tell me, you can stay home and not make money. No sense in going out and not making any.


I really appreciate the kind words and your excitement towards my company and what I am trying to accomplish.

I know it will take time and be a slow build, but I have no intentions of slowing down or stopping.

As a matter-of-fact, I received my confirmation from Holley today, confirming my enrollment in all three levels of the Holley EFI training courses in November! I need to start somewhere, and this will be it! These classes will provide me with the tools that I need to begin my knowledge base, and hopefully career, in aftermarket ECM tuning. The future looks bright as long as I don't let anyone bring me down or allow petty antics to divert my attention and influence my drive and willpower.

And to set things straight, I will NEVER forget you guys, no matter where I end up or (hopefully) how large my company may end up growing.

I was raised to always remember and respect those who were there in the beginning, and who helped you begin your path. As such, it would go against everything I stand for, if I ever held the attitude or aura of "too big for my britches" or the "too cool for school" attitude/cockiness.

If I ever act like that, you guys can pay Tom to come give me a solid kick in the dick, and I won't get mad..in fact if that ever happens, I'll know exactly why and it would probably be one damn good wakeup call...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 25 2018, 09:49:17 PM
What do you use for tire height?
A different type of tire will have a different height at any given speed and will yield  a different slip %. That's ok to compare 1 converter to another. but not 100% accurate. If you are logging driveshaft rpm then you are heading in the right direction.


Also on that page it would seem to infer changing tire size changes actual gear ratio.
What do the numbers mean eg 411.and how does tire size affect that.

I normally run the correct speedometer gear in the transmission for the tire height in order to get the scantool to report the correct speed.

If you use a formula, one normally inputs final transmission gear ratio such as 1:1 and and differential ratio such as 3.42 plus tire diameter.  Using that info, one can easily calculate theoretical speed. Comparing theoretical to actual gives us the slippage.

What we do not have a grip on is any tire growth and/or slippage that may be occurring but the answer is close enuf to give us a good idea as to what the converter is doing at that given point in time.

Tire diameter affects the apparent gear ratio at the tire as it interacts with the road surface. Put a set of 34" tires on a jeep that had 25" tires originally, and you can easily feel the apparent difference in the gearing.

Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 25 2018, 09:56:25 PM
Some of the slowest cars I have ever seen are owned by guys that love technology and buy all kinds of the latest and the greatest.  Problem is there is a big difference out of buying tech and talking tech and actually getting the benefit out of it.

Then you have the group that loves to kick your ass with their old tech because they know how to put a working combination together and they know how to drive their cars.

There is also a group that understand modern tech and can actually use it but that is a smaller group and you don't find them talking bs on the Net.  They are on the track learning how to use it.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 25 2018, 10:09:03 PM
Tyler...is the 6765 in Reeds car have the new wheel in it? If not...will it?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 25 2018, 10:24:59 PM
Tyler...is the 6765 in Reeds car have the new wheel in it? If not...will it?


Do you mean the 6765 that ran the 11.17 or whatever it was?


I am literally asking Reed as we speak.


Hopefully he will have time to answer me tonight. If not, then tomorrow.










[/size]Some of the slowest cars I have ever seen are owned by guys that love technology and buy all kinds of the latest and the greatest.  Problem is there is a big difference out of buying tech and talking tech and actually getting the benefit out of it.Then you have the group that loves to kick your ass with their old tech because they know how to put a working combination together and they know how to drive their cars.There is also a group that understand modern tech and can actually use it but that is a smaller group and you don't find them talking bs on the Net.  They are on the track learning how to use it.



I agree on all points.


Reed falls into the last group, without question. It is why I respect him so much.


My local buddy, who helps me with local sales/etc, is in the same boat as the last group... He used to run his own Pro Stock team in the 90's. The guy was running 8.20's in the early 2000's.


When he bought Dave Bamford's car it was running 8.90s. The same day that he purchased the car from Dave, he was able to make it run 8.50's before they left the track that day. Ultimately he got the car into the 8.20s.

When it comes to on-track suspension tuning/adjustments, or how to address the power management for the track, this guy is second to very few people in the country.


I know that I have A LOT to learn with these cars. The best I can do is to align myself with people like Reed and my buddy, who can educate me and help me grow in a positive manner and be supportive of my search for knowledge.

I am really looking forward to what we will achieve on this local car that will be running the new WORK G4S 6765 DBB Turbo that we just ordered! I am hoping for some SOLID low 9's on a car with a TurboTweak 6.1 chip, iron heads, and old ATR roller cam... I think it'll show everyone that old tech can still kick some ass, if you supplement it in the right way ;)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 25 2018, 10:28:30 PM
Yes...the 6765 on Reeds car.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 25 2018, 10:28:44 PM
Some of the slowest cars I have ever seen are owned by guys that love technology and buy all kinds of the latest and the greatest.  Problem is there is a big difference out of buying tech and talking tech and actually getting the benefit out of it.
I'll just see myself out...
LOL.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 25 2018, 10:41:58 PM
I didn't say I was looking for a new turbo. The 6262 is the go to turbo...and I'm asking questions for those that would like to step up to one with this new wheel. Bison cracked the 9's with a 6265...a stock short block...and pair of heads. Should be enuf turbo for most.As far as Arts convertors go...a used one can be had for a the price of a cup of coffee...as everyone has jumped ship to PTC. Slip rate for this 16930 comes in in the single digits...and I can get it flash off the line to 4 grand with minor low gear tuning for 1.5x launches. Maftpro and Gen 2 went the way of the dodo...Erics 5.7 chip is still here.

So then why is BoostedRPS wasting his time here developing new parts and combinations if we've had it figured out for a decade or more?If he is going to be successful somebody is going to need to step up and buy in with their dollar votes, and shun accepted practices along the way.With the relatively narrow powerbands these little V6s suffer from they can use all the help they can get as it relates to spool time, torque multiplication, rpm drop management between gears, and the ability to have 0% converter slippage.



I do have a name, in case you were curious... it is Tyler :)


I do not consider myself as "wasting" time answering Brad's questions. I view Brad's questions as representative of what many people may be curious about, but fear posting and asking the question, or may not know exactly what questions to ask. I think Brad is helpful with his questions because it poses a lot of questions that beckon answers which address common concerns or ideologies that may be resistant or curious about these new turbos and what benefits they have, or why they are worth their various prices.
Tyler, I wasn't insinuating you were wasting your time on Brad's inquiry.  However, it s a bit strange that on one hand Brad is singing your praises (justifiably so, I am sure), yet on the other hand he is preaching a shoestring approach and rejecting change (I get you aren't made of money Brad) and the lack of necessity (like any of us NEED to do this hobby) - it just looks like mixed messaging.  I was stating that all the effort you are putting into defining new performance parameters is going to be lost on the masses if the masses choose not to step away from accepted practices - and it doesn't help when a guy (Brad) has been successful using proven methods seemingly denounces progress.
Yup, old dogs and new tricks... uphill battle... got it.

This is why I run stock junk...cuz it pisses people off. I drag the most from the least. I'm quite happy being a vendors nightmare.
Then why the interest in a new turbo?I get there are many ways to skin a cat.  However, if I was new to this or looking to upgrade from old tech - it would be well worth the leap into contemporary parts, in my opinion.



Are you saying that the cost for new turbos, compared to old turbos, IS worth it? Or is NOT?


See above, Tyler. Beyond facilitating conversation - it seems improbable he'd jump to a WORK turbo, so why raise the issue?  I fully support the innovation.  Again... got it, we are all just talking here.

Tyler.

Said it three times so now I won't forget your name, Tyler.  See! It worked!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 25 2018, 10:46:19 PM
Yes...the 6765 on Reeds car.


The wheel he used was actually the first "Gen" of the G4 wheel that we used today.


So if you figure that the wheel he used has been improved upon MANY times over, then it stands to reason that if he were to make that run again using the current G4 6765 DBB, there would be a real improvement in the car's ET and MPH.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 25 2018, 11:20:59 PM
Yes...the 6765 on Reeds car.


The wheel he used was actually the first "Gen" of the G4 wheel that we used today.


So if you figure that the wheel he used has been improved upon MANY times over, then it stands to reason that if he were to make that run again using the current G4 6765 DBB, there would be a real improvement in the car's ET and MPH.

Thanks. I'm keeping an eye on Patrick Rubio at BG. I'd be using the TA Street head instead of the reworked stockers he's using. He's got an AC convertor in the car and a TT chip. Bottom end is stock. I'm expecting mid 10's without even trying. Turbo is a Precision...th e equivalent of Reeds 6765. Patrick will do a complete rundown on the tune on the car etc. I have a transmission that can handle 9 second power...and I run the 1/8th...which is less stressful...so the bottom end should hold up. If I can't find an AC 19930 up here...then I'll talk to my trans guy up here about restalling my 16930. You'll have to talk to Reed about how much stall for the 6765 with the new wheel and BB option. I wanna test with the Champion stock appearing intake I run against the full race version. I wanna see what Patrick does first.

Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 25 2018, 11:35:22 PM
Yes...the 6765 on Reeds car.


The wheel he used was actually the first "Gen" of the G4 wheel that we used today.


So if you figure that the wheel he used has been improved upon MANY times over, then it stands to reason that if he were to make that run again using the current G4 6765 DBB, there would be a real improvement in the car's ET and MPH.

Thanks. I'm keeping an eye on Patrick Rubio at BG. I'd be using the TA Street head instead of the reworked stockers he's using. He's got an AC convertor in the car and a TT chip. Bottom end is stock. I'm expecting mid 10's without even trying. Turbo is a Precision...th e equivalent of Reeds 6765. Patrick will do a complete rundown on the tune on the car etc. I have a transmission that can handle 9 second power...and I run the 1/8th...which is less stressful...so the bottom end should hold up. If I can't find an AC 19930 up here...then I'll talk to my trans guy up here about restalling my 16930. You'll have to talk to Reed about how much stall for the 6765 with the new wheel and BB option. I wanna test with the Champion stock appearing intake I run against the full race version. I wanna see what Patrick does first.


Gotcha.


Stall with the 6765 DBB on 110 race gas would start around 3300-3400. If you were running E85, I'd say more like 3,100-3,200 but I know Reed will say on gas 3,300-3,400 for your car. I know this because I've already asked him for ya ;)


He would recommend to start with a 3,400rpm stall and see how the car performs. If the car spools faster than what we're guessing it will, considering the gasoline-based fuel and a flat tappet camshaft, then you could use a lower stall. Best to start a bit higher and have too much stall, then not enough. You can always have your converter guy change the stall speed if you need it lowered, but 3,400rpm would be a good starting place.


Unless you plan to convert to E85, or swap to an aggressive roller cam, etc.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 25 2018, 11:41:14 PM
In other words, use what you've got 🤣
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 25 2018, 11:50:37 PM
No E 85 up here...and the flat tappet stays. I'd rather it be a tad tighter...and Scoob can tune around it for the track. If it spools slow on the street, I don't care cuz I just cruise the car.


My car right now on Erics default settings with the 5.7 is so slow on the short time...you can get out and run faster. Dial in the low gear fuel and timing and it's a whole different animal.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 26 2018, 10:26:51 AM
If ya'll don't learn to cut and paste quotes and separate your answers from the quotes, I am going to make a tour and  apply a permanent fix!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: daveismissing on July 26 2018, 03:12:00 PM
I hate it when Dad yells at us.   :(
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 26 2018, 04:51:45 PM
If ya'll don't learn to cut and paste quotes and separate your answers from the quotes, I am going to make a tour and  apply a permanent fix!

Thank God I don't know how to cut and paste. I love being stupid!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 26 2018, 04:51:46 PM
If ya'll don't learn to cut and paste quotes and separate your answers from the quotes, I am going to make a tour and  apply a permanent fix!

All the quote marks get confusing..

If you made it easy to quote mulitiple responses it'd be a big help!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 26 2018, 06:11:15 PM
No E 85 up here...


You also don't have the IRS up your ass.  Isn't it legal to make 'shine up there??   

  Screw messing up the hooch with low octane gasoline.   Make your own and leave it 30% water.   Best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 26 2018, 06:31:18 PM
Been thinking about that
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 26 2018, 06:51:56 PM
So checkout this new turbo that WORK is releasing today! I am the EXCLUSIVE vendor for this thing, and I have to say that I feel incredibly blessed to be able to sell a product of this caliber!


Here is a copy and paste of the post I put up on TBcom and the FB groups:


WORK Turbo and RPS are PROUD to offer a BRAND NEW Turbo for those looking to maximize their 3-bolt turbo setup! This turbo uses a .85 AR Buick 3 Bolt turbine housing, and a 4" inlet, 3" outlet Compressor housing. This turbo is rated to 1,100hp.

To quote Reed Partridge, the owner of WORK Turbochargers, he has this to say about this turbo:
"This has our 72mm compressor wheel, and our 9 bladed 76x68mm turbine wheel. This exhaust wheel is produced in Germany and is a full Inconelpiece, the compressor wheel, backplate and housing are all made right here in the states. It still uses a special Garrett ball bearing center housing, made in Japan or their Mexico facility. The 9 bladed option makes it ideal for peak flow, low mass and optimal performance in a smaller volute turbine housing, like the 3 bolt Buick.

(This Turbo Includes) Full ball bearing, water cooled and every possible update to make it 100% bad ass. "

This turbo has a price of $2,250 plus shipping, and this price INCLUDES the required water lines and oil feed fitting, which are an almost $200 value.

This turbo is a DIRECT competitor of the Precision Gen 2 CEA 6870 turbo, except this turbo costs a few hundred dollars less.

If you have any questions about this turbo, please call 707 362 6030 or email us at 1987GN@gmail.com

Thank you!
Tyler
www.boostedrps.com (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boostedrps.com%2F&h=AT2SiZrx4tYf0HPAnCpSK6_phQU06Tb0k5oX6AbTpy07S3UyC8GhmXAfaBdi0zVVv6CvfV9UpuLOQBVzctLv1aiVuYxlh0aIsOT-kqmuvfcvj9ssA9A3jXo7jrIHVV8UyA5-oLdlnrx-ztBu)

THE NEW TURBOS WILL NOT HAVE THE SANDING/GRIDING MARKS ON THE COMPRESSOR HOUSING THAT THE TURBO HOUSING BELOW HAS.(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/921/NV9mZI.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/plNV9mZIj)(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/923/2BXJZp.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pn2BXJZpj)
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 27 2018, 08:54:57 AM
This turbo is rated to 1,100hp
[/size][/color]
[/size]Tyler. please explain what that means.[/color]
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 27 2018, 10:34:36 AM


It takes a given amount of air and a matching appropriate amount of fuel to create enuf heat to generate a theoretical hp.

The turbo is an air pump and the amount of air it generates could be measured or calculated. When the turbo is employed, we must move away from cfm.

One formula to compute a theoretical amount of hp is:       CFM x 0.069 x 10 = maximum horsepower that a turbo can theoretically support.

We used to see turbos listed with a cfm number and max hp supported.  The above formula usually matched up between the two.  As turbos compress the air, we have to deal with lbs of air mass per minute instead of cfm to take into account the increased number of oxygen molecules per cfm.  I would guess the hp potential is based upon the compressor map at the peak of the efficiency zone. 

I think one must have a good combination to get close to this number

Tyler may have a more modern formula?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Top Speed on July 27 2018, 10:40:21 AM
CFM can actually cause confusion as most don't understand the difference between ACFM (actual cubic feet per minute) which is adjusted to actual temperature and pressure and SCFM (standard cubic feet per minute) which is adjusted to standard temperature and pressure.  These are volumetric air flow units compared to lbs/hr which is a mass flow unit.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 27 2018, 12:43:14 PM
It just seems to me there is a basic ''premise'' missing.


If I put said turbo on a 1 liter motor  it will make 1000 hp?


If i put said turbo on a 16 liter motor  IT will make 1000 hp ?


What does ''support'' mean in this context?


 
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 27 2018, 02:05:33 PM
If the engine can inhale enuf charged air to make 1000 hp, then the turbo can "support" it.  Substitute Provide for Support
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 27 2018, 03:16:14 PM
I can make 1000 hp without a turbo. What would said turbo do then?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 27 2018, 03:22:00 PM
It just seems to me the answer is ''it depends''.but on what base number or mods.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 27 2018, 03:43:35 PM
I have to believe you are simply trolling because you are bored
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: reality on July 27 2018, 04:54:48 PM
Could be, I am on the north end of lake Superior but no.


If you said a turbo at a certain rpm flowed, by itself, enough air to make 1000 hp I get that.




What started this is a guy locally wanted to put 2 stock gn turbos on a warmed over 400 sbc and I don't think that would work properly for a low 9 but I don't know how to explain why.Maybe  I'm wrong.


He ended up putting on 2 -70's.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 27 2018, 05:23:15 PM
If you had started with the above situation, you might have gotten better help.

Okay, let's assume you could build an engine that made 1000 hp naturally aspirated and then added a turbo that is rated to SUPPORT 1000 hp.

I estimate the final output of the combination to be about 975 hp as the turbo would not be large enuf to support more than the original 1000 hp so it could not make any boost.  All it would be would be a restriction-hence my guessed 975.

Two stock buick turbos would not support more than 550-600 or so hp if I recall correctly.  Not nearly enuf for a low 9 second car.

I recall a friend that had a a 272 Stage engine and installed a TA49 on it.  He could not get more than 18 psi of boost out of it and could not understand why.  He refused to comprehend that the TA49 could not flow enuf air to fill the engine and make more than 18 psi of boost.  Same situation.  It was also way out of its efficiency zone and the charge was very hot making even less power
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 27 2018, 06:27:50 PM
Ok I'm on my phone so my response may be short for now..

When we say a turbo can "support" a certain power level, it is directly related to the volumetric efficiency of the engine, or VE. This in turn affects the engine's BSFC Brake specific Fuel Consumption.

What TF does this all mean?

Ok think of it like this...let's say you're not as old as you are now, and you're trying to go out and score a date/good night with a chick at a club/bar (or discotech for you old folks...hehehe).. think the female in this equation as how much power your engine you can make. Think of how "fly" /"tight your game is" as how much power your engine can support.

If you dress like shit, you won't land a date. (We're using "date" as the politically correct term here) Just like if your car cannot support the airflow, it won't make power. Air=power. Dressing like Shaft=good story the next morning..

A turbo is rated to "support" a certain amount of power, assuming the engine can flow that amount of air through the cylinder heads. If you have a 1000hp NA engine and slap an1000hp turbo on it, the engine will make just about 1000hp.

Turbos are now rated in lbs/hr of airflow. Years ago you could add a 0 onto the end of that rating and that was roughly the power itd make. Nowadays with new tech, it isnt uncommon to find a turbo rated to 100lb/hr and have it make 1,150+ hp.

Turbo power doesn't compound on one another with similarly rated turbos. In fact on twin setups you only get about 80% output of the 2nd turbo. Turbos are not like nitrous. Add more of the same size, and you still get more power..

If you make 1000hp NA, why would you be stupid enough to put a turbo rated for the power you already make, on your engine?

Does that answer most questions?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 27 2018, 07:05:08 PM
The trick is to bag the girl while dressed like crap.


That means anal.   :tongue



Not sure how that compares to turbos though.    I'll have to dwell on it when I get done with the new blonde later.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 27 2018, 08:09:16 PM
Building the best (most efficient) N/A engine you can and adding forced induction is usually the quickest way to the most useable power.  There are definitely nuances to this theory in a practical application like changing the valve events and dynamic compression to support positive manifold pressure.

So, when you are limited by your air pump of choice, like a stock LC2, you really have to rely on pressurized air past the valve to get the most out of it.  The trouble is between that "high boost" number and the bandaiding of an intercooler your back pressure sky rockets, and air pump starts working against itself... resulting in parasitic losses, heat, and a drop off in efficiency.

I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread Duttweiller said not to waste time or money on the stock heads.  For the cost and potential to support a capable turbo - investing in really good heads will augment the air pump across the board.  Obviously, based upon the application putting too large of a head on a tiny 3.8L in a street car is going cause it to be very lazy off "boost" negating their overall advantage; and then you'll need a cam to round out the package as a whole.

Even the crappiest factory LSx head is capable of supporting ~1000hp -  talk about flow potential, right?   Having a calibrated MAF, a WBO2, a MAP or two, and an IAT is a great way gain an appreciation for how well a combination is working.

In HPTuners you can use the measured lb/hr from the MAF and a little mathematics to come up with calculated torque and horsepower, this can then be compared to accelleration rate to see if more "boost" really is better.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 27 2018, 10:22:06 PM

Could be, I am on the north end of lake Superior but no.


If you said a turbo at a certain rpm flowed, by itself, enough air to make 1000 hp I get that.




What started this is a guy locally wanted to put 2 stock gn turbos on a warmed over 400 sbc and I don't think that would work properly for a low 9 but I don't know how to explain why.Maybe  I'm wrong.


He ended up putting on 2 -70's.



If you are going to turbocharge an engine that had originally been designed to run NA, you have to make changes in the engine to reflect the increases in airflow the turbo will provide.


What I mean is that an NA engine will have a camshaft that will have the exhaust valve open later on the power stroke, compared to a turbo camshaft. This plays a role in the backpressure and amount of exhaust duration that is required from the camshaft. The more airflow entering your engine, the more time you need to remove that airflow. If you have an exhaust system that has backpressure in it (like a 3-bolt turbo Buick engine, for example) you need to make sure you allow ample time to remove the pressurized air from the cylinder, and minimize the amount of time of overlap in the valves. There is more, but you get the point that you need to change some things in a NA engine if you want to get the most out of a turbo setup.


A 400"ci SBC would probably make enough power on it's own, if it was a good build, to produce 450-550fwhp, which is what you would obtain from putting a stock GN turbo. The stock turbos don't flow more than probably 50-55lb/min, which translates to 500-550hp at the most.


If you put two of them on the car, you aren't going to have 500hp + 500hp. Rule of thumb with twin turbo setups is you only gain 80% of the second turbo's power potential. Not only that, but you need to make sure the cylinder heads can flow enough volume to support the airflow coming from these turbos, and your exhaust system needs to be free-flowing enough to minimize the backpressure.


With turbos like the stock GN turbo, which are quick spooling on an small engine like our 231ci, if you put them on a 400ci engine the amount of exhaust gas entering the turbine housing at even moderate rpm levels will be so high that it will quickly become a restriction, because the turbine housing will not be able to support the volume of exhaust gas flow coming from the engine. As the rpms climb, eventually the turbo will become incredibly inefficient because the wheels will be spinning so fast, due to all the exhaust gas entering the turbo. Yes, wastegates will help prevent this, but only to a point. The turbos are simply too small, and because of this they will be inefficient. If you were able to get 500hp from one of these turbos in an ideal engine setup, putting them on an engine where they are incredibly inefficient like that 400ci engine you would be lucky to get 350-400hp out of one of these. That is why even basic turbo LSx engines use single turbos with sizes no smaller than 67/70mm compressor wheels, because a turbo of that size will be able to support the amount of exhaust flow coming from the engine, while still being efficient. The cylinder heads on a LSx typically flow so well that they may only need to make 10-15psi to reach the max flow of a turbo of that size, because their cylinder heads have so little restriction in them. On crappy heads like ours, it may take 35+psi to reach the max flow levels of a 67 or 70mm turbo, for reference.




It just seems to me there is a basic ''premise'' missing.If I put said turbo on a 1 liter motor  it will make 1000 hp?If i put said turbo on a 16 liter motor  IT will make 1000 hp ?What does ''support'' mean in this context?



You need to change how you think if you intend on understanding this concept.


I am assuming your post is referencing a turbo rated to support 1,000hp?


If you have a 1L engine that had cylinder heads that were able to support the airflow required to make 1,000hp then putting that turbo on that engine would make 1,000hp. Think of the old Formula 1 turbocharged engines in the 80's. Small displacement, like 1.5-2L engines, that made over 1,000-1,500hp. The engines could support the airflow that the turbocharged produced, and therefore the engines were able to make that amount of power.

As for your comment about this turbo being put on a 16L engine and making 1,000hp..... The engine size does not matter. What matters is the engine's ability to support / allow for / provide the airflow through the cylinder heads that the turbocharger can produce, without causing any restrictions. If the cylinder heads can flow the amount of air, without issue or restriction, that the turbocharger can produce and flow, then the engine will be able to make up to 1,000hp. I say "up to 1,000hp" because things like combustion chamber design, fuel type used, camshaft design, compression ratio, pressure drop from turbo outlet to engine inlet, backpressure..
...all of these things can influence how efficient an engine is. If you are familiar with the term Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, aka BSFC, this is a formula and number that tell you how efficient your engine is at burning all the air and fuel coming into the cylinder, and how much fuel is required to produce a certain amount of horsepower. The less fuel required to produce horsepower, the lower the BSFC, and technically the more "efficient" the engine is at burning all the fuel entering the cylinder. I am saying all this because engines have so many variables to them that can potentially cause drops in power output, that it is impossible to truthfully say that ANY part you put on your engine WILL produce X amount of power. This is why companies who are honest will rate a part's power potential by saying "it will support XYZ power" or "it can make up to XYZ power" because they understand there are so many things that can affect the power an engine can make.

We say "support" because every engine is different. I could word it by saying "This turbo has the potential to make 1,000hp" if that suits you.


What we are saying by using the word "support" is if your engine can supply all of the airflow through the cylinder heads that this turbo can produce and flow without any restriction or reduction in airflow volume, then your engine will be able to make up to 1,000hp. If your engine is built so that it can support all of the flow coming from the turbocharger without restricting it, then your engine will be able to utilize all of the flow that this turbo can produce, and will be able to make up to 1,000hp...assuming proper combustion / camshaft design for cylinder filling / etc.




It takes a given amount of air and a matching appropriate amount of fuel to create enuf heat to generate a theoretical hp.The turbo is an air pump and the amount of air it generates could be measured or calculated. When the turbo is employed, we must move away from cfm.One formula to compute a theoretical amount of hp is:       CFM x 0.069 x 10 = maximum horsepower that a turbo can theoretically support.We used to see turbos listed with a cfm number and max hp supported.  The above formula usually matched up between the two.  As turbos compress the air, we have to deal with lbs of air mass per minute instead of cfm to take into account the increased number of oxygen molecules per cfm.  I would guess the hp potential is based upon the compressor map at the peak of the efficiency zone.  I think one must have a good combination to get close to this numberTyler may have a more modern formula?


1 of the reasons is that the BSFC formula uses lb/min for the calculations of fuel and airflow requirements. Since the BSFC is used in calculating where a turbo for a certain engine may land on the compressor map, they use lb/min for airflow ratings. Also since the compressor maps use lb/min for the flow as well.

And since air has density to it, volume of airflow does not always translate to the actual amount of airflow entering the engine. Consider altitude changes in air density, for example. By using mass, which is the weight of the air, it is a little more precise in determining the actual amount of airflow. If we measured airflow that was at sea level, and the same volume of airflow but at 8,000ft elevation, the mass of the two groups of air would be different, since the density of the air changes with elevation. The sea level airflow would have more mass to it, compared to the 8k elevation airflow.

Does that make sense? I hope I explained it in an easy enough manner..
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 27 2018, 10:28:54 PM
I'm likely oversimplifyin g this. A given engine can only swallow so much air? We've heard overturboing an engine. What dictates how many lbs per hour or CFM's a given engine can handle.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 27 2018, 10:44:31 PM
More testing for you. I bolted Norbs' 70 P trim with a .63 Garret exhaust housing on it. The car went 12.2 at 114 with the high/low gear 02's checking in just under 800 with alky on 23 PSI. I slapped the 6262 on it with the same tune and the car instantly went 11.5 at 121 on 20 PSI with the same tune and alky. C'mon turbo experts...tell me why.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 27 2018, 11:12:14 PM
Tyler, if we use two stock GN turbos on a 400 inch v8, each turbo will see half the engine on a bank and bank mounting system.  Therefore, each turbo will be feeding 200 ci which is less than a single turbo on a 231 Buick.  Therefore, it will seem to be slightly larger as it is feeding a smaller system.

In this case, it will be able to produce a bit more usable air flow (more mass) than it would on a turbo buick and it will add quite a bit of power.

If you add some serious heads, and a big cam, then you have just changed the rules of the game.  In that case, you have limited the utility of the two turbos as the power band has been moved up and away from the capability of the two turbos to keep up.

It's the same with a 231 if you put higher flowing heads and a big cam in the engine...you just ran away from the turbo by pushing the power band to a higher rpm.

You have to keep a reasonable datum on the combination if you wish to demonstrate a point that is valid.  We are dealing with something that is fairly simple in concept but quite complex in application.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 27 2018, 11:16:10 PM
Brad, you used too big a turbo for the combination and it did not have a chance to come into the zone where it was designed for.  It was lazy.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 28 2018, 01:31:34 AM
If you 'maximize' an engine for N/A and add a turbo, you're pretty much going to blow it up.   Or be happy at 2psi of boost.


an N/A engine with a turbo isn't right, and a turbo engine ran N/A won't be right.  Camshaft overlap alone knocks it out.

  An engine is a total system.  Not a standard that all applications start from.



Also: Everytime I hear or read the term ''back pressure'' I want to murder a baby bunny.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 28 2018, 08:18:12 AM
If you 'maximize' an engine for N/A and add a turbo, you're pretty much going to blow it up.   Or be happy at 2psi of boost.


an N/A engine with a turbo isn't right, and a turbo engine ran N/A won't be right.  Camshaft overlap alone knocks it out.

  An engine is a total system.  Not a standard that all applications start from.



Also: Everytime I hear or read the term ''back pressure'' I want to murder a baby bunny.


Exhaust restriction.


Blow me.


I dress like Shaft. I AM INTERVINCENTBL E!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 28 2018, 08:19:54 AM
I have always been surprised by how well the stock camshaft worked under no boost conditions.  Engine is pretty peppy in NA form.  Be interesting to see the turbocam profile vs the na cam profile.

The engineers came up with a pretty good combo right out of the factory for 1986. 
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: TexasT on July 28 2018, 08:59:26 AM
Well, those engineers had been working with the turbo v6 for a few yrs before 86. Just needed the port injection and computer to control it to get it Making decent power.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 28 2018, 09:12:58 AM

Brad, you used too big a turbo for the combination and it did not have a chance to come into the zone where it was designed for.  It was lazy.

Exactly!

The engine had more output because an old 70 p-trim is a dogshit turbo compared to a new Gen 2 CEA 6262 wheel.

For example, here are 3 Garrett turbos from 3 different lines they produce. All are within a few MM of each other for compressor wheel and turbine wheel size. In fact, the highest output wheel is actually 3mm smaller than the others...point here is that the old cast 61mm wheel flows a max of almost 70lb/min and it is rated to 675hp.. Why? Because for starters that last 5-8lb/min of airflow isn't putting the turbo in a very efficient range in terms of the compressor wheel's speed and the temp of airflow coming from the wheel. Second, the turbo needs to spin at almost 44psi in order to reach the max flow potential of that wheel. You could run the turbo at around 33psi and still get something like 65-66lbs/min airflow, but that is still a lot of boost.

Here is that turbo I am talking about, from the GT line. It is a cast wheel 61/62 :https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers/gt3582r

This next turbo is from the GTX line and is rated for 750hp, yet barely puts out 67lb/min of airflow. It is a 100% billet point-milled 58/62 sized turbo. From about 30-38psi you are still getting a lot of output from the wheel, with peak output being around 38psi. This turbo is a GTX Gen 2 turbo with a ball bearing center section. This line of turbos is the epitome of Garrett's tech achievements. Point here is that the newer tech wheels can support more power than what the compressor map would dictate, or have us believe. Considering the 62mm cast-wheel flowed 70lb/min and was only rated to 675hp, and this billet 58mm wheel flows only 67lb/min yet is rated for 750hp, that should be a pretty good indicator of just how much of a difference in output the newer vs. old tech wheels have. Link to turbo: https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers/gtx3576r-gen-ii (https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers/gtx3576r-gen-ii)

Last, a GTW turbo. It is a billet hybrid flank/point-milled 62/62 turbo putting out about 73lb/min, rated to 750hp. Link: https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers/gtw3684r (https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers/gtw3684r)


Tyler, if we use two stock GN turbos on a 400 inch v8, each turbo will see half the engine on a bank and bank mounting system.  Therefore, each turbo will be feeding 200 ci which is less than a single turbo on a 231 Buick.  Therefore, it will seem to be slightly larger as it is feeding a smaller system.In this case, it will be able to produce a bit more usable air flow (more mass) than it would on a turbo buick and it will add quite a bit of power.If you add some serious heads, and a big cam, then you have just changed the rules of the game.  In that case, you have limited the utility of the two turbos as the power band has been moved up and away from the capability of the two turbos to keep up.It's the same with a 231 if you put higher flowing heads and a big cam in the engine...you just ran away from the turbo by pushing the power band to a higher rpm. You have to keep a reasonable datum on the combination if you wish to demonstrate a point that is valid.  We are dealing with something that is fairly simple in concept but quite complex in application.

Crap. Yes you're right. Those turbos would be seeing roughly 200ci each. Where did my brain go when I missed that?!




More testing for you. I bolted Norbs' 70 P trim with a .63 Garret exhaust housing on it. The car went 12.2 at 114 with the high/low gear 02's checking in just under 800 with alky on 23 PSI. I slapped the 6262 on it with the same tune and the car instantly went 11.5 at 121 on 20 PSI with the same tune and alky. C'mon turbo experts...tell me why.

That P-trim wheel isn't going to flow worth a damn under 25-26psi with those stock heads of yours. Add to that the wheel wasn't in a very good efficiency range, therefore it was putting out less-than-optimal temps from the wheel.

The 6262 having a wider comp map, was probably right at the base of the more efficient parts of the comp map, so it was putting out colder air, for starters. Add to that the usable range in that turbo is much wider, so running it at 20psi you were still getting good airflow out of it. The design of the PTE Gen 2 CEA wheels allows for the turbos to help overcome a lot of the shortcomings most Buick engines have...like crappy camshaft selection/poor valve timing/exhaust flow restriction (for earl..)/etc ... Meaning that the turbo does not require everything to be perfect in your setup in order to provide great response and power output from it. Contrary to the 6262's design, the old 70mm turbo does not have those features, thus requiring you to either 1) run it in the pressure range of highest efficiency in order to obtain the best performance, 2) optimize your engine's setup for that specific turbo.

Remember my answer to the "what are the real benefits of billet wheels that you would see on the street?" question I received? That answer is the answer to this question of yours.





I'm likely oversimplifyin g this. A given engine can only swallow so much air? We've heard overturboing an engine. What dictates how many lbs per hour or CFM's a given engine can handle.

Exactly. Your cylinder heads dictate the volume of air that can enter the cylinder, to potentially create power. The compression ratio (dynamic/etc), combustion chamber design, fuel used, spark advance, valve timing, etc...all dictate how much airflow the engine will actually use and burn. Heads provide the potential for power, the rest of the engine determines if it can use that potential.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 28 2018, 10:13:05 AM
Tyler said:   "Exactly. Your cylinder heads dictate the volume of air that can enter the cylinder, to potentially create power. The compression ratio (dynamic/etc), combustion chamber design, fuel used, spark advance, valve timing, etc...all dictate how much airflow the engine will actually use and burn. Heads provide the potential for power, the rest of the engine determines if it can use that potential."

And this is why we have seen a few cars with stock cams run mid tens.  Good heads with a good turbo to push the air in when the valves open in spite of a short duration, low lift opening.

Two things matter and I believe they have been covered already.  First you have to push all the air you can into the engine.  Second, you have to trap that air long enuf to burn it well before it goes to the turbo and out the tail pipe.

I disagree with Earl's comments about a turbo engine won't run well with a NA cam.  Many of the cams we have used to get better performance are NA profiles.  The Edelbrock 204/214 was very popular early on. Then we had/have the 206/206, 208/208, and the ever popular 212/212.  All of these are NA profiles but they work.  The really early cams like the 218/218 and such also made power but gave up the bottom end and have mostly gone away with the advent of better turbos.

And, yes, Mike/Earl, in theory, cams designed for turbos will be much better.  In theory, that is.  In practice, on street cars, no one has come up with the magic required to demonstrate theoretical superiority.  As most of us drive our cars on the street some portion of the time, performance walks, theory talks... :D  Maybe with dual overhead cams, or such, things will change.  Variable cam timing!  yeah, baby!

Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 28 2018, 10:30:25 AM
Tyler said:   "Exactly. Your cylinder heads dictate the volume of air that can enter the cylinder, to potentially create power. The compression ratio (dynamic/etc), combustion chamber design, fuel used, spark advance, valve timing, etc...all dictate how much airflow the engine will actually use and burn. Heads provide the potential for power, the rest of the engine determines if it can use that potential."

And this is why we have seen a few cars with stock cams run mid tens.  Good heads with a good turbo to push the air in when the valves open in spite of a short duration, low lift opening.

Two things matter and I believe they have been covered already.  First you have to push all the air you can into the engine.  Second, you have to trap that air long enuf to burn it well before it goes to the turbo and out the tail pipe.

I disagree with Earl's comments about a turbo engine won't run well with a NA cam.  Many of the cams we have used to get better performance are NA profiles.  The Edelbrock 204/214 was very popular early on. Then we had/have the 206/206, 208/208, and the ever popular 212/212.  All of these are NA profiles but they work.  The really early cams like the 218/218 and such also made power but gave up the bottom end and have mostly gone away with the advent of better turbos.

And, yes, Mike/Earl, in theory, cams designed for turbos will be much better.  In theory, that is.  In practice, on street cars, no one has come up with the magic required to demonstrate theoretical superiority.  As most of us drive our cars on the street some portion of the time, performance walks, theory talks... :D  Maybe with dual overhead cams, or such, things will change.  Variable cam timing!  yeah, baby!


Duttweiler said that it has been his experience with these new breed of efficient turbos with low backpressure ratios, that a cam grind similar to a NA engine works better than what we have typically thought a "turbo cam" should look like.


Granted, this is for 2,000+hp engines running turbos with crazy boost at high rpms with minimal exhaust restriction... but still..
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 28 2018, 10:44:50 AM
Don't get me wrong, Steve... a small amount of valve overlap 2-6* (typical in a mild NA performance cam) can work wonderfully in turbo engine, especially those 500-650hp range street combos.  High overlap is no bueno.  Yet, there is a point were we transition to race car mode and a spec cam is required.

I specifically chose the LS9 cam in our Procharged LS2 because its had more negative overlap than the stock cam, and caused an effective drop in dynamic compression. Handy when you are force feeding an 11:1 engine.  Conversely an 8:1 V6 needs more help off boost, so positive overlap is beneficial.

https://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdownloads/12638427.pdf (https://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdownloads/12638427.pdf)

Earl: Back pressure. Back pressure. Back pressure. :p
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 28 2018, 10:45:18 AM
That is really our problem.  Most engine programs are aimed at high end engines whereas many of us are looking at the other end of the spectrum.

The more I look at the new gen turbos, the more potential I see for low rpm, long-lived street engine's that will work.  yeah, I know a billion cycles on a cast crank can cause failure pulling out of your driveway.  It's no questioning that the series of turbos that included the 6262 series really stepped the game up and guys are going a lot faster as a result.  I suspect some of these new units are going to make them look obsolete.

Now, all we have to do is to drag Brad into the 21st century turbo-wise so he can kick rich kid azz even worse.  :rock: :rofl:
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 28 2018, 10:51:41 AM
Don't get me wrong, Steve... a small amount of valve overlap 2-6* (typical in a mild NA performance cam) can work wonderfully in turbo engine, especially those 500-650hp range street combos.  High overlap is no bueno.  Yet, there is a point were we transition to race car mode and a spec cam is required.

I specifically chose the LS9 cam in our Procharged LS2 because its had more negative overlap than the stock cam, and caused an effective drop in dynamic compression. Handy when you are force feeding an 11:1 engine.  Conversely an 8:1 V6 needs more help off boost, so positive overlap is beneficial.

https://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdownloads/12638427.pdf (https://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdownloads/12638427.pdf)



Earl: Back pressure. Back pressure. Back pressure. :p

New engines have changed the game along with really sophisticated engine management.  2018 Mustang 2.3 rated out the door at 325 hp.  The guys with eco-boost ford trucks love them around here.  Some of these new engines are running 20 psi out the factory door.

When GM came out with the LS series, all bets were off.  Chrysler has gone nuts...and the most impressive thing to me is that this stuff has a warranty...smh

We do pretty good to be 32 years into the game and still getting better.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: nocooler on July 28 2018, 11:00:58 AM
KOENIGSEGG Has it figured out. Camless, and a whole slew of other cool shit.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 28 2018, 11:41:37 AM
KOENIGSEGG Has it figured out. Camless, and a whole slew of other cool shit.


My billet crank (and all the custom billet cranks that I sell) is made at the same facility and by the same people that make Koenigsegg's crankshafts :D


/brag
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: nocooler on July 28 2018, 02:00:54 PM
My Chinese turbo is made in the factory next to the big guys /just saying

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: motorhead on July 28 2018, 02:06:14 PM
When GM came out with the LS series, all bets were off.  Chrysler has gone nuts...and the most impressive thing to me is that this stuff has a warranty...smh

We do pretty good to be 32 years into the game and still getting better.
I believe the LS, HEMI, and latest Mod Motors are the result of a generation of dinosaur engineers and bean-counters dying off; and the infusion of a more progressive and youthful mindset taking over with clean sheet designs; that and transmissions being able to hold the power.
These little engines are a lot like the space shuttle - introduced in 1976 and improved with time.  Shit, just look at the 3800 series I, II, & III - and the new DOHC twin turbo V6s.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 28 2018, 02:53:38 PM
I have always been surprised by how well the stock camshaft worked under no boost conditions.  Engine is pretty peppy in NA form.  Be interesting to see the turbocam profile vs the na cam profile.

The engineers came up with a pretty good combo right out of the factory for 1986.


I've always wanted to put a degree wheel on a bone stock engine. I'd like to actually measure real world actual degrees of overlap.    I'd also like to know the relationship between intake opening and cam sensor timing.

I'd be kinda neat to make a formula that indicates where the cam sensor should be set based on exact valve events.  (or in this case 'event')
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 28 2018, 03:02:23 PM


I disagree with Earl's comments about a turbo engine won't run well with a NA cam.  Many of the cams we have used to get better performance are NA profiles.  The Edelbrock 204/214 was very popular early on. Then we had/have the 206/206, 208/208, and the ever popular 212/212.  All of these are NA profiles but they work.  The really early cams like the 218/218 and such also made power but gave up the bottom end and have mostly gone away with the advent of better turbos.




Earl said that because what is commonly referred to as a 'turbo cam' is one with very little overlap, where as a 'n/a' cam is one that has the correct amount of overlap. Not to mention a 'turbo engine' is normally built with much less that optimum usage of intended octane.


A hotrod N/A cam with a shitload of overlap degrees will be a dog in a turbocharged application, and a cam with hardly no overlap in N/A would have a  bitch of a time filling the cylinder buy using atmospheric pressure (after all the pressure drops) alone.


Vizard ran tests on N/A years ago and he claims that the downstroke generated around 1PSI of 'draw' (that I interpreted as roughly 2"hg).  While the overlap period generated 8PSI.   Even with variables, anything remotely close to an 800X increase is one hellova thing to not mess up.   Plus overlap is first.  Once the air is moving, it's a lot easier to keep it moving.


Camshaft is the brain of the engine.   Messing up on that one would be like trying to speed up an iPhone that's running BASIC as an OS. 
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 28 2018, 06:02:17 PM
Brad, you used too big a turbo for the combination and it did not have a chance to come into the zone where it was designed for.  It was lazy.

I knew what was gonna happen before I bolted it on. Norbs went 10.3 with it...but he needed 34 PSI to reach it. It simply needed lots of boost to hit its sweet spot. I also tested the 6152 with the .63 Precision exhaust housing. It needed 25 psi with the same tune to get me into the 11's.


Norbs went nuts when I said I was bolting the 6262 on. He said going smaller would slow my car down.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 28 2018, 06:48:30 PM
That is really our problem.  Most engine programs are aimed at high end engines whereas many of us are looking at the other end of the spectrum.

The more I look at the new gen turbos, the more potential I see for low rpm, long-lived street engine's that will work.  yeah, I know a billion cycles on a cast crank can cause failure pulling out of your driveway.  It's no questioning that the series of turbos that included the 6262 series really stepped the game up and guys are going a lot faster as a result.  I suspect some of these new units are going to make them look obsolete.

Now, all we have to do is to drag Brad into the 21st century turbo-wise so he can kick rich kid azz even worse.  :rock: :rofl:

I have an end game for this car...and I'm not done yet. The plan is to have Tylers plug-n-play return line on the car and 340 pump in it before I put it away for the winter. I'll need it for more HP next spring...
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 28 2018, 07:12:54 PM




Earl said that because what is commonly referred to as a 'turbo cam' is one with very little overlap, where as a 'n/a' cam is one that has the correct amount of overlap. Not to mention a 'turbo engine' is normally built with much less that optimum usage of intended octane.



OMG, Earl is now talking in the third person just like Brad!  If one of them starts referring to themselves as The" Earl or Scoob, it's going to be time for some chemtrails and population control!


Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: ULYCYC on July 28 2018, 08:17:19 PM
Something to think about.  Years ago Jim Dotson was running 8.0's with his twin turbo stage 2.  Health issues  caused loss of his comp license. He removed the turbos and install a new intake and carb.  The car ran  constant 10.00's and won many bracket, Q8 and Q16 races. He was unbeatable until he passed away.  Best of my knowledge he never opened the motor and used the turbo setup internals with the carb. Go figure.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Forzfed on July 28 2018, 08:28:54 PM
My buddy's Stage II with the turbo bypassed ran 10.9 to 11.1.  I thought that was pretty good!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 28 2018, 09:25:40 PM
Something to think about.  Years ago Jim Dotson was running 8.0's with his twin turbo stage 2.  Health issues  caused loss of his comp license. He removed the turbos and install a new intake and carb.  The car ran  constant 10.00's and won many bracket, Q8 and Q16 races. He was unbeatable until he passed away.  Best of my knowledge he never opened the motor and used the turbo setup internals with the carb. Go figure.


Engines with Stage 2 cylinder heads are completely different beasts than a production-headed block. Well ported Stage 2 heads can flow over 330cfm+ around .650 lift...that is LSx flow numbers...

Imagine a 4.5L LSx engine that was N/A and built to make serious power... would it be so hard to believe that something like that could produce 700..800..even 900hp if it was a purpose- built engine?

Using something like an old Indy engine's intake manifold, with the long runners and velocity stacks, I would have zero problems believing a N/A Stage 2 engine could make 700+hp routinely.







Earl said that because what is commonly referred to as a 'turbo cam' is one with very little overlap, where as a 'n/a' cam is one that has the correct amount of overlap. Not to mention a 'turbo engine' is normally built with much less that optimum usage of intended octane.




OMG, Earl is now talking in the third person just like Brad!  If one of them starts referring to themselves as The" Earl or Scoob, it's going to be time for some chemtrails and population control!

Bob Dole wouldn't find that very funny! Bob Dole would think that is rude. Bob Dole doesn't like things like that. BOB DOLE!!!

Eh..who am I kiddin'...one of my nicknames in college was "T-Unit" and if I was drunk enough, I'd start talking mad shit and refer to myself as "T-unit" saying it...

Uuuhhh man-o-man...college was a seriously crazy time... I totally get while people say college will be the greatest years of your life, because there is no other time you're able to have complete fucking insanity in your everyday life, and all the people you are surrounded by are experiencing the same thing, with no one there to put a halt to it....

....except the cops.... going to County Jail in nothing but your boxers (which didn't close in the front) on the night they're doing a prison transfer...wel l I would imagine that would probably suck..from what I hear online...


That is really our problem.  Most engine programs are aimed at high end engines whereas many of us are looking at the other end of the spectrum.

The more I look at the new gen turbos, the more potential I see for low rpm, long-lived street engine's that will work.  yeah, I know a billion cycles on a cast crank can cause failure pulling out of your driveway.  It's no questioning that the series of turbos that included the 6262 series really stepped the game up and guys are going a lot faster as a result.  I suspect some of these new units are going to make them look obsolete.

Now, all we have to do is to drag Brad into the 21st century turbo-wise so he can kick rich kid azz even worse.  :rock: :rofl:


I have an end game for this car...and I'm not done yet. The plan is to have Tylers plug-n-play return line on the car and 340 pump in it before I put it away for the winter. I'll need it for more HP next spring...

I'm waiting on the lines to arrive, and once they do I'll figure out how we're going to approach shipping this stuff.

Hopefully we can have my PnP return line, AND the first ever (that I have heard about) PnP aftermarket E85-compatible fuel filter that works with the stock fuel lines...If we get this to work, then we'll be able to offer E85 Conversion kits for almost $200 LESS than what Racetronix / FT sell the kits for, and you'd still be able to run into the 10's!! Hopefully it will allow a lot of people to save some money and put the money saved to parts that they couldn't have afforded otherwise!
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Scoobum on July 29 2018, 07:26:46 PM
True or false. I can run a slightly tighter convertor than spec'd by the turbo manufacturer with a larger turbo if I use a boost controller like an RJC unit.

If true...why?
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: Steve Wood on July 29 2018, 09:08:43 PM
I would think the manufacturer assumes you have some form of boost controller
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: BoostedRPS on July 30 2018, 04:45:40 PM

I would think the manufacturer assumes you have some form of boost controller



Bob Dole assumes nothing.




True or false. I can run a slightly tighter convertor than spec'd by the turbo manufacturer with a larger turbo if I use a boost controller like an RJC unit.If true...why?



Well, if I were Bob Dole answering this question, seeing as we all love to speak in the third-person, I'll be a dude playing another dude pretending to be another dude..


So Bob Dole thinks that the boost controller of that nature would have minimal affect on the converter's responsiveness
.


If you went from a stock WG setup and then went to a twin scroll 4 bolt setup with dual external wg's running Co2...I'd say that THAT would have an affect on the responsiveness of the turbo, allowing you to run a slightly tighter converter.


Bob Dole.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: earlbrown on July 30 2018, 10:19:46 PM
True or false. I can run a slightly tighter convertor than spec'd by the turbo manufacturer with a larger turbo if I use a boost controller like an RJC unit.


Probably false. The MBC holding the wastegate fully closed might help during the spoolup stage, but the converter has to slip enough to get the turbo started spinning in the first place.
Title: Re: Turbo Tech
Post by: challengermike on February 16 2019, 08:11:35 AM
Would the Comp Turbo Technology CT3S Turbo 60 62 be a good upgrade from a ta49 ? Also could I take the 3 bolt housing from the ta49 and bolt it to the comp turbo ?
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