IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Scoobum on August 20 2016, 05:33:58 PM
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Installed a CAI which pulls air in from outside the car...to check the difference in temperatures from the 'normal' setup from in the engine bay.
CAI-0 MPH-102 degrees
At 66 MPH the temp dropped to 95
K and N Filter and solid MAF pipe
0 MPH-123 degrees
At 86 MPH the temp dropped to 113 degrees.
I'm not trying to sell anything...jus t posting real world results for those interested.
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Pix of install? Whose kit? Where is it picking up from?
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I run one never tested though thanks for the insight!
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Pfft. I did this before anyone ever marketed "a kit". Makes a notable difference, just watch out for puddles.
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You will gain nothing going from 113 down to 95.
Cool the air with alky.
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The factory engineers went in search of cold air, didn't they?
Of course they mode a bunch of other compromises about cost and noise and we ended up with some restriction.
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won't be enuf to measure. It might be more consistent in extreme circumstances, tho. On the other hand, another bend or two in the intake track might disrupt flow and offset any potential gains or even cost a couple of hundreths?
And no, Mike, LC was selling a kit long before you ever rigged a cold air kit and so did ATR
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Just saying, if you're foolish enough to race your car in hot humid air, cool the charge with alky to make up for it.
Notice it took till 86 mph to get cooler versus the 66 mph originally listed.
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Cool- real world testing,
In the interest of science try running the CAI. without the enclosed cannister and remove the rubber from the firewall.
what does GRUMPY use?
Trivia? Who or which factory made the first RAM AIR or CAI.
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Ron...this 'kit' came from Brandon in a package deal. It looks like the RJC polished MAF pipe...and then he's found a angled piece of matching aluminum to go down through the fender where the canister sat. The filter sits open below the fender. I relocated the canister with an ATR relocation kit I got from one of the locals years ago. Everything's polished...loo ks pretty spiffy and cleans up the engine bay.
Trivia answer. Kenne Bell?
I had a pic of Grumpys engine bay...but can't remember.
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Everything's poll
Looks pretty and cleans up the engine bay.
IMO There is the answer to CAI.
Trivia- I don't know the answer but think late 60's or earlier.{DR olds?]
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L69 tri power olds had a setup that grabbed air from between the headlights. 66 or so id guess not sure of a factory setup before that
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Best thing about the CAI that hangs around bumper level is the Awesome Sound it makes on the hiway when you nail it to pass a few cars & then when you let off the throttle it sounds like a Scary Monster Growling! :rock:
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Would be interesting to see the the air temps at the up pipe BEFORE the alky nozzle in two similar combo's at the same boost, say 15 psi, and same intercooler. One with a CAI kit and one without (typical cone K&N in the engine bay)
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I'll say one thing about the IC in this car. It sure keeps the ET's consistent...u nlike that POS G BODY SLIC I had. Stupid car kept its dial time right on the money all day last Sunday in the heat and humidity.
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And no, Mike, LC was selling a kit long before you ever rigged a cold air kit and so did ATR
I am not talking about a flex tube stuck to a restrictive can wrapped around a filter fed from an air dam, Steve.
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The ATR kit was a 14" KN that mounted in front of the radiator. Was not restrictive, or canned....
Altho I recall the Tinman wars that claimed it's special filter put the KN filter in the ground....and then there was the Pete Tomka kit...I remember all the test claims but don't recall any actual data being provided.... Nor did anyone mention that the stock maf was the biggest restriction and yet cars ran tens with them
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As I stated earlier I picked this CAI up from one of the locals in a package deal. He's beyond anal and did a masterful job of fabbing/polishing it. I'm a data hound...and don't believe anything unless I have track data to back it up. The numbers are all there...and whether a CAI would help without alky to cool it is up for debate. In a non alky situation...ma ybe. With alky as a cooling agent...then I doubt it. As Steve said...with the extra bend...you'd prolly break even...at best. Money would be best spent on an alky kit...or a IC upgrade. Ambient air temp was 91F with the CAI and 75 without it. MPH temp is when the temp dropped.
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Steve, I have a question. Any truth to the bigger the air filter...the more CFM's can pass through it? I had a K and N filter on my car that was the size of a trash can. Got it from none other than...Norbs. I had to relocate the canister under the fender to get it to fit. Lol!
Any calculation I could do to work the size filter I would need for my engine at a given RPM?
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Absolutely! 9" filters are starting to be a drag on quite a few cars and some filters are more restrictive than others. I have the equation. I will find it
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Chuck Leeper posted this long ago and it was on my site...looks like I left it off the last version I put up. There are some filters out there that claim to outflow a K&N but I don't recall if I have ever seen an independent test. I like the filters with the inverted cone in the nose to give more filter area on a smaller filter. Also, we used to be able to buy one that had a dome at the outlet end that smoothed air flow as it left the filter reducing turbulence that would actually try to block some of the flow coming out of the filter. I think I may have those on both my cars.
The biggest help I have seen is from going to a 4" out from the normal three inch outlet and increasing the pipe size to three inches. The longer the inlet pipe, the more important this is because air flow is reduced by the friction caused by the inside walls of the tube just as a water pipe does on water. The longer the pipe, the more important this becomes.
Here is the formula from the K&N site. If you have a cone filter instead of a cylinder, take the diameter of both ends and use the average of the two when calculating flow.
Use the formula below to compute the minimum size filter required for your particular application. The usable portion of the filter is called the EFFECTIVE FILTERING AREA which is determined by multiplying the diameter of the filter times Pi (3.1416) times the height of the air filter in inches, then subtracting .75-inch. We subtract .75-inch to compensate for the rubber seals on each end of the element and the filter material near them since very little air flows through this area.
A=(CID X RPM) / 20,839
A = effective filtering area
CID = cubic inch displacement
RPM = revolutions per minute
at maximum power
Example: A 350 CID Chevy engine with a horsepower peak at 5,500 rpm.
A=(350 X 5500) / 20,839 = 92.4 square inches
If you are sizing a panel filter, multiply the width of the filter area (not the rubber seal) times its length. If you are sizing a round filter, use the following formula to determine the height of the filter.
H=(A / D * 3.14)+0.75
A = effective filtering area
H = height
D = outside diameter of the filter
3.14 = pi
0.75 = the rubber end caps
Example:
H=(92.4 / 12 * 3.14)+0.75 = 3.20 inches
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same thing, less words from GNttype
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/airfilter.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/airfilter.html)
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As I stated earlier I picked this CAI up from one of the locals in a package deal. He's beyond anal and did a masterful job of fabbing/polishing it. I'm a data hound...and don't believe anything unless I have track data to back it up. The numbers are all there...and whether a CAI would help without alky to cool it is up for debate. In a non alky situation...ma ybe. With alky as a cooling agent...then I doubt it. As Steve said...with the extra bend...you'd prolly break even...at best. Money would be best spent on an alky kit...or a IC upgrade. Ambient air temp was 91F with the CAI and 75 without it. MPH temp is when the temp dropped.
I built this a couple years ago and still haven't put it on my car. It started out wanting to get rid of my 14" K4N with a sharp edged 3" outlet I found a 4" AEM 'no-oil' filter with a radiused outlet shaped kinda like a velocity stack... Then just went all the way to the turbo with it...
I figure a 4" neck through a 3.5" pipe should have minimal pressure drop, even with the extra bend, since the actual inlet on my turbo is around 2 inches.
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Any calculation I could do to work the size filter I would need for my engine at a given RPM?
More = Better
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Exactly, Earl! LOL
S&B also makes some with the radiused base and inverted cone http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Brand/S-B-Inverted-Cone-Air-Filters/S-B-Power-Stack-Air-Filter-Inverted-Cone-Rubber-Cap (http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Brand/S-B-Inverted-Cone-Air-Filters/S-B-Power-Stack-Air-Filter-Inverted-Cone-Rubber-Cap)
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It's also interesting that K&N's own numbers ignore the pleats on the actual filter media.
I almost wonder if that's a way to 'trick' people into making sure they get minimal pressure drop.
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perhaps, the flow is not equal thru the vertical pleats as compared to horizontal pleats but is more an area as presented to incoming air flow? Not sure.
did you read the pm I sent you?
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Wonder what the Canadian price is...
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I bet AEM has a dealer up there..look for one of theirs
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perhaps, the flow is not equal thru the vertical pleats as compared to horizontal pleats but is more an area as presented to incoming air flow? Not sure.
did you read the pm I sent you?
I just went and found it (along with a lot of other PM's I've never seen). I need to find a setting to alert me when I get a message. I don't spend near the time on the boards that I used to.
I just went outside and measured my 14" K&N that came with the ATR 'ram' air kit from yesteryear... If I were to wrap a piece of paper around the outside (basically K&M's math) it's 218.625 square inches of flow area....
In real life it has 59 pleats (the 60th's is the sheet metal clamp to close the loop) with right at 1" of length between valleys. Using that math the calc changes from 16.5*13.25 to 59*13.25 for a change to 781.75 square inches.
From looking at it, I really would have guessed the difference would be greater.
I would imagine the flow might be a little down where two pleats touch but not by that much. With that much surface area compared to the 2.2ish inch turbo opening that's a pretty good difference. Now I have 781 square inches feeding 3.8 square inches
So that's roughly a 206:1 ratio of flow area between my filter and my inlet. the air should be going pretty slow at the filter media that flow shouldn't take too much of a hit.
NOTE: The above math aaUmes that my entire filter surface is a flow area and it is not. I have no idea the ratio of material .vs open area on K&N's cotton gauze.
Plus, as filters get used, they get more 'filtery' as the passages get debris stuck in them and turn one orifice into a few very very small orifices. So flow goes down and micron ratings go numerically down.
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I can get AEM thru my local parts store have not tried their filters yet.
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Larry...which parts place? NAPA and Parts Source are here in town. Think there's a CARQUEST in the next town a couple km's away.
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www.sbfilters.com/site/pdf/ISO_5011_Test_Report_for_AFE_ProDry_75-80882.pdf (http://www.sbfilters.com/site/pdf/ISO_5011_Test_Report_for_AFE_ProDry_75-80882.pdf)
www.sbfilters.com/site/.../ISO_5011_Test_Report_for_AEM_Dryflow_21-9024DP.pdf (http://www.sbfilters.com/site/.../ISO_5011_Test_Report_for_AEM_Dryflow_21-9024DP.pdf)
http://www.sbfilters.com/site/pdf/ISO_5011_Test_Results_for_75-5013-1_and_75-5013-1D.pdf (http://www.sbfilters.com/site/pdf/ISO_5011_Test_Results_for_75-5013-1_and_75-5013-1D.pdf)
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We have Lordco auto parts Not sure who they are affiliated with but most are part of a buying group.
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What is the biggest 4" inlet dry filter out,there? I just got an AEM and it isn't as long as I thought it would be.
Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk
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I had a K and N I got from Norbs. Quite frankly...it was the size of a trash can. I had to remove the canister to get it to fit.
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K and N's site has all the dimensions for every filter they have. I'm not pushing K and N...but it's what I've used over the years.
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I'm my case I used the 9 in. filter from a KB ram air. At right around 600hp gross, air wasn't much of a problem, fuel was. 255 l pump and 50's. That's real world results like Brad does.
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I see you tested intake air temps but how much faster was it in the 1/8 mile with the cai installed?