Author Topic: Office duster/HC152A conversion  (Read 24741 times)

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Offline SuperSix

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Office duster/HC152A conversion
« on: July 07 2013, 02:26:41 PM »
The thread gnonyx posted here: http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=3983 (I will cross post most of this on TBS.com) got me thinking about this conversion, I decided to try it on the 87T. I had rebuilt the A/C 4-5 years ago, but it stopped blowing cold, I still had R12 in the system.

It hadn't worked in ~3 years, but still had a bit of pressure. That's a good sign.

I purchased:
ACDelco 15-50120 Orifice Assembly
ACDelco 15-1681 Accumulator Dryer (This is the correct TR part #, despite what Amazon and RockAuto say)
Four Seasons 26777 Cap & Valve Air Conditioning System Seal Kit
This includes new valve cores for the system, and some spare caps. After much Googling and reading, a large amount of A/C leaks are from these. From the looks of the old ones, they may have been factory. All were replaced.
New Orings (I already have a shit ton of them)
8oz PAG150 oil
1/2 gallon A/C flush
4 cans 10oz office duster, Big Lots, $4 ea (only used 3) (They had R134 there for $6.75/can - with R134 being phased out, I am considering a bit of a stockpile)
New compressor seals - Got the wrong ones, another error from Amazon and Rock. Turned out to be simple orings I already had.

I went all out I guess. I pulled the evaporator out (That's another issue I read about - old evaps that get corroded/clogged, etc, especially pre-cabin air filter cars) and soaked it in a bath of home A/C coil cleaner. I gently brushed it, and cleaned it, used plenty of water. It didn't look TOO bad to begin with, but I swear I can feel more air volume in the cabin.

I did snap the evap cover when I was trying to remove it, this is the first time I have taken one apart. instead of Googling how to remove it, I went all cowboy on it. nothing a little silicone won't fix, and hey - it's gonna be my son's car soon. :p

I was not impressed with the amount of debris behind the wide trim strip and other parts I removed - spent a little while cleaning that up. I scavenged and reformed the black sealing goo and reinstalled it. I think I only stripped two screws - that's a win for me.
I pulled everything out, flushed it all (Except compressor) I pulled the compressor out and drained what oil out of it I could. I put a bit of the new oil in and rotated it a few times (Thanks Charlie!). I think this is the factory compressor, and has never been out of the car. I'm not sure. Either way, it's working. I ended up getting flush all over the left side of the engine - gave me a reason to clean up the motor a bit.

I installed all new orings, new orifice tube (old one pictured below), new accumulator and all new valve cores. Reinstalled it all, then realized I had forgotten to add oil. It was really late, I was beat - but I had to get the system buttoned up so I could put it on vacuum. As fast as I could, I put 2oz in the condenser, and the remaining ~4-5oz in the accumulator.

I put it on a vacuum for ~2 hours while I cleaned up, etc. I then left it for the night.
The next morning, I went and checked, no leaks. For giggles I turned the vacuum pump back on, it may have run for ~2 more hours.

I had a hard time figuring out the correct charge for this freon, I couldn't find a reference to that anywhere.

So, here's what I came up with, am I right?

Factory Charge: 3.25 lbs R12
HC152A molecular weight - 120g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 68g/mol


Corrected - thanks gnonyx!
HC152A molecular weight - 68g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 120g/mol

68/120 = .56

3.25lb * 16oz - 52oz factory R12 fill, or 29.12oz of HC152A/R152 (52oz * .56)

I was using 10oz cans, so - three cans should be a fill? Assuming ~1-2oz loss overall while adding freon.
When I took it for a ride yesterday with ~22.5oz - the center outlet temp got down to 51f. Ambient was ~80f, humidity was ~60%.
Idle, it will get down to ~55f. After reviewing my math above a bit more, I added ~5 more oz this morning.

Also - before I added anything this morning, the resting PSI is 85.5, and yesterday, I couldn't nook up my high side port, an oring popped loose in the connector. Then I realized  this morning I could just remove the R134 fitting, and use my R12 high side hose.

Here's better the running pressures from this morning, AFTER adding a total of ~26.5oz (Estimate)
Low side - 37PSI
High Side 190PSI
Center outlet temp was 54, this is at idle.

I await the lambasting for something incredibly simple that I fucked up. :rofl:

Some interesting links:
http://www.rx7club.com/1st-gen-archive-71/c-charging-easy-cheap-safe-alternative-refrigerant-997918/page4/
http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f135/how-to-r152a-conversion-493953/
http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2008/manhoekim.pdf

Pics!








Old orifice tube. Doesn't look too bad to me - experts?


Suckin!




The bad part is I found out the driver's side upper control arm bushings are completely shot - it explains the random clunking. I think I will wait for the son to come home on leave - he needs to learn how to rebuild a TR front end. :p

Kinda hard to see in this pic, but they are the worst I have seen. Oddly, the passenger side bushings look tired, but they aren't disintegrated like the driver's side.
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #1 on: July 07 2013, 02:55:25 PM »
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #2 on: July 07 2013, 02:56:12 PM »
Hope the patent does not run out on 152 soon!  :D
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #3 on: July 07 2013, 03:00:55 PM »
oh, yeah!  Nice Job!!

And the upper arms are a piece of cake if you have a control arm puller set off ebay or the rental place
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline SuperSix

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #4 on: July 07 2013, 03:03:33 PM »
Hope the patent does not run out on 152 soon!  :D

lol - that's what I have been thinking throughout this whole process. Fucking DuPont rules the Freon world.
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

Online gnonyx

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #5 on: July 07 2013, 06:28:05 PM »
Hi SuperSix,
Excellent write up and the work you did
I do have a question for you, you claimed:

HC152A molecular weight - 120g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 68g/mol

and after reading the link  articlesyou posted and some researched I found:
http://www.wuzhouchem.com/cataloged/ODS/hfc-152a.htm

The molecular weight of R12 is 120.9
The molecular weight of HC152A is 66.1

Is there something I'm missing or is it possible both molecular weights numbers are reverse?
« Last Edit: July 07 2013, 06:45:22 PM by gnonyx »
87 GN T-Top, ScanMaster, hot-wire kit, Full Throttle chips w/ matching 60# injectors, adj. fuel pump, and triple pod gauges w/ AEM A/F gauge, oil pressure gauge, vac/boost gauge, Kenne Belle rear seat brace, upgraded tranny w/ Art Carr pan cover, and a pre-lube oil system.

Offline SuperSix

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #6 on: July 07 2013, 09:48:15 PM »
Hi SuperSix,
Excellent write up and the work you did
I do have a question for you, you claimed:

HC152A molecular weight - 120g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 68g/mol

and after reading the link  articlesyou posted and some researched I found:
http://www.wuzhouchem.com/cataloged/ODS/hfc-152a.htm

The molecular weight of R12 is 120.9
The molecular weight of HC152A is 66.1

Is there something I'm missing or is it possible both molecular weights numbers are reverse?

I typed it wrong, you are right.

I am pretty sure I did the calculations correctly, and just typed it wrong, I do need to check though. :D
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

Offline daveismissing

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #7 on: July 08 2013, 10:16:01 AM »
reading... flammable gas? maybe has less of an upside over 12A ( other than you guys don't have it approved )
-Drain plug by Earl Brown, custom oil pan by Rich's Auto

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #8 on: July 08 2013, 10:36:49 AM »
what does flammable gas mean?  It burns without the presence of O2, or does it require a certain A/F to be ignited?
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline daveismissing

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« Last Edit: July 08 2013, 08:28:30 PM by daveismissing »
-Drain plug by Earl Brown, custom oil pan by Rich's Auto

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #10 on: July 08 2013, 09:47:33 PM »
European refrigerants are normally flammable, but, small leaks produce such a lean a/f that they will not burn.  I am pretty  sure that is the case for this as well
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline SuperSix

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #11 on: July 08 2013, 10:57:54 PM »
In the video  linked on tb.com - he sprays it right on a MAP gas torch. I don't think it's any more flammable than anything else. There's still people using propane.
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

Offline SuperSix

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #12 on: July 09 2013, 05:46:46 AM »
Dammit Charlie! Get in here and show me what I did wrong! :)
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

Offline daveismissing

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #13 on: July 09 2013, 11:57:38 AM »
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2008-06-12/pdf/E8-13086.pdf

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: This final
action provides motor vehicle
manufacturers and their suppliers an
additional refrigerant option for motor
vehicle air conditioning systems. The
refrigerant substitute discussed in this
action (i.e., R–152a) is non ozonedepleting .
Members of the MVAC
manufacturing and MVAC service
industries have all been actively
engaged in the development of this
rulemaking and are developing
prototype systems with the use
conditions defined in this rulemaking.
This final action helps harmonize
U.S. MVAC alternatives with European
Union (EU) MVAC alternatives. The EU
has banned the use of R–134a, the
predominant MVAC refrigerant in the
U.S and the EU, in new cars beginning
in 2011. By 2020, cars sold in the EU
may have to include the new alternative
in this action. In response, U.S. original
equipment manufacturers are
developing MVAC systems using R–
152a and other alternative refrigerants
for the European market and for
possible U.S. sale as well.
EPA is deferring final rulemaking on
R–744 (carbon dioxide). EPA is
currently continuing to consider further
several issues with this
regulatory action.
-Drain plug by Earl Brown, custom oil pan by Rich's Auto

Offline SuperSix

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Re: Office duster/HC152A conversion
« Reply #14 on: July 09 2013, 02:19:02 PM »
Whoooo!!

I wonder how long before they add a destructive chemical to the duster cans to keep people from using it in their A/C.  :rolleyes;

More info from SAE/Delphi;
http://am.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-0874.PDF
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

 

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