IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Dont Panic on February 21 2019, 11:42:07 PM
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I was looking to upgrade my stock MAF with a 3.5" LS MAF and increase my intake piping diameter (~$300 for the translator and MAF + piping cost). So I started researching and I see a lot of threads on removing the MAF and going SD. So now I start researching SD for a few hours and I see there is a turbotweak SD2 chip but you need a powerlogger and 3 bar MAP which I don't have (I only have Direct Scan presently) so I would be into $850 for that setup.
Then I start looking at the aftermarket ECU / engine management systems which look interesting and I cam across the XFI Sportsman which replaces the ECU and is $999. From my research it seemed most people using the XFI Sportsman have more serious cars than I have, so it may not be good for what I have now but I could be wrong.
So now I am in a conundrum. Do I buy the MAF and translator or do I put the money towards the SD setup which is only a few hundred more. Which one is better for street driving? If the XFI sportsman can be used on other engines in the future that would be a plus (I'm sure I can find this with some research). Is the XFI sportsman much less of a system than the other more expensive SD options (MS3PRO, Eric's ECU GN, or the standard XFI model)? I really like the look of Eric's ECU GN but I can't justify getting something like that with my set-up. If the sportsman can interface with a universal gauge like this (https://www.diyautotune.com/product/perfect-tuning-universal-gauge-ms3pro-ms3-ms2-microsquirt/), or communicate with an android dash than that would help future proof it. I have read a lot of good things with the SD2 chip but there is less information on the sportsman, likely because it is fairly new. If the sportsman is simple enough to tweak once you get experience with it, then it would enable me to update it myself as I add parts in the future which would be a real plus.
Is anyone running the sportsman in a less aggressive street car? Does anyone have experience with both the SD2 chip and the sportsman and if so what are the pluses and minuses of both? Would SD be noticeably better in performance for a set-up like I have or is it just more fun to tinker with?
Details about my set-up:- 42 lb injectors- TE44 turbo- 2800 stall converter- Front mount intercooler - Adjustable fuel pressure regulator- Turbotweak chip
- Plan to add alcohol injection next.
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For a street car, Translator and modern MAF all day long.
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For a street car, Translator and modern MAF all day long.
Thanks for the comment, but why?
I'm also wondering if going without a MAF would allow for less airflow restriction for faster turbo spool, or would that be negligible with a TE44, 3.5" MAF and 3.5" piping?
I have a good straight stretch of intake that would help create laminar air flow for the MAF (if that helps). I also have a straight section of intercooler to TB piping if I wanted to go with a blow through MAF setup, although that scares me a bit in case something came apart in the MAF and got into the engine. I will try to attach a pic of the engine bay.
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Keep it simple unless you completely understand what you are getting yourself and into. Te44 spool damn near instant - I doubt you’d see much improvement.
Put a translator/Maf with one of Eric’s chips in it and you’ll be good.
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I have been running without a maf for about 20 years. If you have no emissions inspections, no visual inspections, etc. as I do. It works fine. I am currently running the SD-1 chip.
I am perfectly happy with the set up. I am running a T66 bb turbo with an S housing and a 4.0" inlet pipe. My imagination says it revs quicker under no load.
Performance-wise, it runs the same as it would with a 3.5" maf. This is the first thing people have to understand, unless you have a car in the low Tens, or possibly even the Nines, there is nothing to be gained by going from something like a conventional TT 5.7 chip to a 6.1 chip, to an SD2, or to an XFI aftermarket set up. Yep, that is contrary to the advertising thrown up by vendors and tuners, but, history has shown it to be true over and over over the past 25 years.
I would like to throw in a special shout out to the XFI-Sportsman. It is the greatest crock of shit ever foisted off on the Buick community. Yep, you can install it and start the car, but, it will not run worth a damn unless you hire the guy that sold it to you, or someone else, to tune it to your car. It was a marketing gimmick and if you spend some time reading, you won't very many happy customers but you will find some used systems for sale.
Back to what I was saying. There is no performance gain coming to you out of the box with any of the systems if your car runs only tens. A 3.5 maf and a modern chip is capable of doing that virtually on the default settings of the chip as it is delivered. You can tweak it a little leaner and get a bit more out of it, perhaps, or making it launch a little harder. Personally, at this time, I think the TT 6.1 with a wideband O2 installed is the safest, simplest chip available.
If you have money to spend on a big turbo, matching converter, IC, heads, etc., and you want to top it off with an aftermarket fuel management system to have something to talk about, Then spend $1900 on the ECU-GN offered by TurboTweak/Bailey Engineering. Like the others, it will actually cost more by the time you add ignition bells and whistles to it. The upside is that it is built specifically for turbo Buicks on top of a MegaSquirt 3 fuel management system that has virtually every bell and whistle known to man today built into it but you can plug it in, and drive the car away and take it to cars and coffee and not be afraid of it not starting or running right.
Jason Goodwin has one. He can extol the many virtues of the system but, he will not tell you that it will convert your car from a slug to a rocket or leap tall buildings in a single bound. Neither will Eric/Bob. They are too honest for such.
If you are like Jason, or probably me before I got old and broke, these high end systems are fun to play with if you are technically oriented, but, they are not magic. They may add hundredths to your performance but not tenths. Walt Judy ran in the lower Nines on a MaxEffort chip which was the predecessor to the TT SD-1. But, to have fun playing with the systems, first you must learn how they work, what the parameters mean, when you may need to tweak one, and what not to do to blow your engine up by messing with the wrong factor. Chips from TT or Bob make it much harder to so.
THERE IS NO MAGIC FOR SALE IN A BOX THAT WILL TURN YOUR CAR INTO A MONSTER FROM ITS NORMAL PERSONA unless they start discounting boxes of money when you buy in volume. :D :D :D
Oh, yeah, the 3.5 LS1 maf will flow more air than a stock factory maf. That might be beneficial in the low Tens. The main benefit is reliability. The factory style mafs are fragile and may not last a long time. The rebuilt units are often not calibrated the same as the original turbo mafs, and some of them are just completely wrong for the cars. This is one of the areas where you do get value for your money. Just don't expect it to be faster than your original factory maf was when it worked right-unless you are into the tens, then you might pick up a little on the top end.
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Oh, yeah, Blow thru mafs sound better technically, but, no one, to my knowledge, has shown that it offered any advantage in the real world. Over complication of a simple issue in my opinion.
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keep it simple. mid/low 9's upgrade. what kinda car ?? looks tight in there.
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It is tight in there LOL
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Nice truthful summary Steve.
On this theme: At what point is it beneficial to move to LS-1 MAF and 3.5" plumbing VS LT-1MAF and 3" plumbing?
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I always suggest the LS1 right off the bat. I would say the cross over point is around 11.0 maybe 11.2
It may be down in the tens as I have seen cars running in the tens with the factory maf. It's really hard to be specific because no matter how technically something is right, some clown turns the boost up another pound and proves you wrong LOL
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For a street car, Translator and modern MAF all day long.
Or Translator and modern MAF with wideband O2 correction.
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On the topic:Highway Stars appear to have a significant discounted sale on their plastic LS-1 MAF currently.
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Thanks for the comments.
The engine is in an 87 Thunderbird Turbocoupe (one of the few 80's cars that hasn't appreciated in value). Lots of room upfront but less on the sides. Parts like headers / crossover / downpipe don't exactly bolt in but that would be the case with most hybrids.
Grumpy, what kind of MAF and pipe sizing are you using?
I have the turbotweak 5.7 chip now and I am using direct scan. Based on the first few responses I am leaning towards getting the upgraded MAF and translator. If I get the car dialed in and I still want more, I could then upgrade to a 6.1 chip, wideband and power logger. That probably makes the most sense for me. I should post a wanted add for a used set. With all these new ECUs out there, I'm sure there are people with a used MAF setup looking to sell.
My turbo spool is far from instant right now but I need to replace my throttle body shaft seals and block off the EGR so that might help. I will try out a boost controller as well. I got something that looks like the RJC controller, I just need to install it. Putting the stock intercooler up front may not have helped.
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On the topic:Highway Stars appear to have a significant discounted sale on their plastic LS-1 MAF currently.
Yes, I had seen that and would likely be getting that combo if I go the MAF route which I am leaning towards.
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Once you get the leaks out of the system, the match between the torque converter and the turbo is the most important thing. The factory converter on a turbo car was around 2200 against the brakes. The non-turbo converter was about 1700. A TA49 can work with a stock converter if all else is right but a little tweaking in the chip usually helps. A 2400-2800 stall converter will cover up a lot of other faults and make it go.
The RJC manual controller will usually get it spooling a bit quicker-especially for those that are running the hose straight from the compressor port to the wastegate actuator port.
Powerlogger is a much better investment than another chip. There is no performance in going from a 5.7 to a 6.1. It just makes it a bit harder for you to screw up :D DirectScan was great in its day but lots of things can go wrong in the 1.4 seconds that it takes DirectScan to update.
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On this theme: At what point is it beneficial to move to LS-1 MAF and 3.5" plumbing VS LT-1MAF and 3" plumbing?
The point to move to a LS1 is the day Bob announced the birth of the Translator.
Between the two, the LS1 has less pressure drop over the LT1, so it wins hands down. The only reason to go LT1 is if you just refuse to buy a new air filter.
On the plumbing, there's no real reason to go to a 3.5" pipe other than cosmetics. (I will admit my 3.5 kit looks ''meaty as hell''). The cross sectional area of the 3.5" MAF is only 80XX% of a 3" pipe. (the LT1 is in the 60's percentile).
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On this theme: At what point is it beneficial to move to LS-1 MAF and 3.5" plumbing VS LT-1MAF and 3" plumbing?
The point to move to a LS1 is the day Bob announced the birth of the Translator.
Between the two, the LS1 has less pressure drop over the LT1, so it wins hands down. The only reason to go LT1 is if you just refuse to buy a new air filter.
On the plumbing, there's no real reason to go to a 3.5" pipe other than cosmetics. (I will admit my 3.5 kit looks ''meaty as hell''). The cross sectional area of the 3.5" MAF is only 80XX% of a 3" pipe. (the LT1 is in the 60's percentile).
Is the LS1 still the largest most reliable MAF available today?
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Powerlogger is a much better investment than another chip. There is no performance in going from a 5.7 to a 6.1. It just makes it a bit harder for you to screw up :D DirectScan was great in its day but lots of things can go wrong in the 1.4 seconds that it takes DirectScan to update.
I'm pretty sure the DS has a fast refresh rate, maybe 18 frames per second. I'll do some research on the powerlogger.
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3.5 maf. :cool; how fast are you looking to go ?
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I think DS is pretty usable if you have the ancient hardware. IIRC It was Turbo Link that only had ALDL refresh rates.
Nice to see you around again Devon :)
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Is the LS1 still the largest most reliable MAF available today?
You're really spending too much time overthinking things, and not enough time under the hood.
It's the largest MAF available today that works with the Translator.
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I remember Norbs tried to get that Granatelli sewer pipe to work without any luck
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3.5 maf. :cool; how fast are you looking to go ?
Thanks, I'll go with the 3.5". I would like to make the intake piping and MAF as large as possible now to future proof it. If a 4" MAF was available that better suited 3.5" piping I would likely buy it even though it is currently overkill for my setup.
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There is a 4in available. and it's a ford part.
However 26 mph in the back half on 19lbs boost with all 3in. 3850 lbs Buick w driver;
Get rid of all that flexhose. JMO :icon_lol:
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There is a 4in available. and it's a ford part.
However 26 mph in the back half on 19lbs boost with all 3in. 3850 lbs Buick w driver;
Get rid of all that flexhose. JMO :icon_lol:
I was thinking of running a straight section of 3.5 inch smooth tubing from the turbo to the exit out of the engine bay (with MAF mounted somewhere in the middle) and then 4 inch flex hose over the wheel well down to where the filter is. I have a lot of length and bends so not sure if 3" would be a restriction. It sounds like it isn't a restriction in your set-up. Maybe I'll stick with 3" for the straight section since the 3.5" MAF is less than the 3" tubing cross section anyways.
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What size is your throttle body. stock is only about 2 in.
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Did I miss the goal? Are you going to take it to the track and run it? Or as mentioned it is a street car and will be primarily atreet?
I didn't read any bad advice but for a street car kiss and so the translated and newer style maf. Fancy computers might be nice and have lots of features but you are building a street car. And I assume(yes, I know) you want to drive it and not tune on it.
The first thing that jumps out in the op is the unbranded "2800 stall" converter. Who built it, how old is it and is it a lockup? I think your best next money is in a new converter for your setup. Don't lie to the place putting it together, it isn't something that works for the future. You need one that works for your setup.
I can't imagine putting in more thought than what Steve, earl, Dan and the others have already posted. Get the maf/translator and get to driving it.
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I got the turbo, injectors, converter and chip (red93) as a package but it was a long time ago (maybe 2004). I think it was a red armstrong LU converter but I could be wrong.
I'll get all the leaks fixed and see how it goes before looking into the converter.
I'm pretty sure I will go with the new MAF and translator. That seems to be the overwhelming consensus. It is also the cheapest and easiest solution, which works for me.
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Z06 in the largest MAF you can get...may or may not need a 3 to 5 pin connector available from Eric. I did a same day test with the LT1, LS1 and Z06 with the Z06 showing the leanest 02's at WOT...surprise surprise. The Z06 is overkill...don't do what I do.
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Converter tech has changed a bit in the last fifteen yrs
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Z06 MAF has thinner walls? 85mm=3.349 inches
Re:Ford
Ford uses a voltage signal? I ddin't think there was a translator for those?
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I THINK the OD is 3 and 3/4 inch...and if memory serves I ordered the coupler from Frozen Boost.
http://www.frozenboost.com/ (http://www.frozenboost.com/)
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$5 fernco plumbing adapter for bonus points!
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I would suggest staying with the 5.7 chip. Runs right out of the box as long as you have the supporting hardware installed. A new MAF and translator is cheap insurance to keep you off the side of the road when the stocker goes kaput.
The absolutely most important thing you should do before playing with the performance is to get the basic stuff nailed. Verify the timing, does the engine have the original timing chain, ensure the cam sensor is installed and set correctly, TPS adjusted correctly, IAC set correctly, TV cable adjusted properly, fuel pressure set, no vacuum leaks, no exhaust leaks pre-turbo. Without going for broke, the 5.7 chip is all the daily driver could ever possibly need and the engine will live.
I would not recommend the sportsman to my worst enemy. Been there. A power logger is not a must but it sure is nice to log a pass or just see data. It works with any of Eric’s chips and makes adjusting your tune a whole lot easier than pressing the gas pedal. Direct scan was before my Buick days so I can’t comment on that.
Steve, I’m not sure Eric sells the 6.1 anymore. I believe the 6.2 replaced it. I could be wrong but thats nothing new.
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Have not looked lately. Sounds like he tweaked it a bit. Iblikebitbecau se I got tired of people who won't read instructions lol
Don't have to adjust fuel as you bring the boost up
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Erics 5.7 chip is great for daily driving. Be aware that if you wanna race...then you have to be on your game from run to run in regards to temp/humidity and adjust your fueling accordingly. You also have to adjust fueling for boost level.
Erics 6.1 chip adjusts your fueling for you. it's foolproof...al most. What I've seen from the locals is they've picked the wrong WB from the drop box or the WB or NB sensors are kaput. WB sensor takes over about 70 percent throttle...and the NB looks after anything below that. Both sensors have to be in perfect condition. The other problem...is they hadn't read the instructions.. .but were at the track with me. Powerlogger is the greatest thing since sliced bread...but most can't comprehend the data being presented to them.
Link is for Erics 6.1...https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1026 (https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1026)
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What I've seen from the locals is they've picked the wrong WB from the drop box or the WB or NB sensors are kaput. WB sensor takes over about 70 percent throttle...and the NB looks after anything below that. Both sensors have to be in perfect condition.
Link is for Erics 6.1...https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1026 (https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1026)
This right here! Out of the mouth of a mere babe! Sensors go bad. Sometimes really fast. Wide bands don't last forever. The ones that use a Bosch sensor do not like a lot of heat and one tank of race gas can throw the output way off.
All wide bands are not created equal either.
I always tell people to compare the two to each other (wide band and narrow band) and be sure they are telling you the same thing.
A while back when William was still running a chip, the car was not responding to tuning. I thought it was running rich but that's not what the wide band was saying. Finally, I got him to put in a new sensor and the car picked up several tenths on the first run...I'm pretty sure he put a few gallons of race gas in it some time before. I think he would have gone into the Nines with the chip on defaults if he had a larger turbo on it.
People tend to concentrate on what parts are on the car and don't put time into understanding what the Scan readings are telling them.
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Densos are the toughest NB to be able to withstand race gas. Wanna know an easy way to detect when your NB is taking a shit? Install a new Denso...and watch the rate your 02 numbers move around on your SM. As soon as you see the numbers starting to slow...the 02 is on it's way out. Guys will go out and spend a gazillion dollars on cool guy parts that won't make their car run any better...but won't spend 20 bucks once or twice a year on a NB sensor to keep their TR running perfectly from an AF standpoint.
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I would suggest staying with the 5.7 chip. Runs right out of the box as long as you have the supporting hardware installed. A new MAF and translator is cheap insurance to keep you off the side of the road when the stocker goes kaput.
The absolutely most important thing you should do before playing with the performance is to get the basic stuff nailed. Verify the timing, does the engine have the original timing chain, ensure the cam sensor is installed and set correctly, TPS adjusted correctly, IAC set correctly, TV cable adjusted properly, fuel pressure set, no vacuum leaks, no exhaust leaks pre-turbo. Without going for broke, the 5.7 chip is all the daily driver could ever possibly need and the engine will live.
end of thread. :rock: Eric gets it really close . 9/10/11 sec cars running on default.. That way the customer is safe .. WELLLL most are BUT ya allways have that 1 cowboy that knows everything :rofl:
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Correct Brad, I have a 4" to 3.75" adapter from my 4" tin man cold air intake to my Z06 MAF
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Eric takes an educated guess on his default fuel low/high gear fuel settings. This 112 race chip I have has to much low gear fuel and not enuf high gear fuel. He prolly doesn't know I race this car at 50F with humidity in the 30's. It still comes up lean with the full 20 percent high gear fuel added at 25 PSI...and has to much low gear fuel with the full 20 percent fuel pulled. I doubt Eric gets much feedback from guys like me running in cold temps with low humidity. I should have left him a note at the bottom of the order form letting him know the low temp/humidity I race in.
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This was a very interesting read. My chip from Eric does the exact same thing(ton of low gear fuel but always lean in third) Scoobum, but I just figured I had an exhaust leak somewhere. To be honest, I still believe I do... :rofl: I haven't really had much time to mess around with my car since I installed Julio's kit. :(