IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: gordyzx9r on January 31 2009, 06:41:30 PM
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I'm ready to burn this car to the ground...or turn it into a really bad ass toaster.
I'll start from the beginning.
I have a 6 gauge Stewart Warner instrument cluster that I got from Tom Houser 4 or 5 years ago when he was selling them via his Performance Instruments business.
It was working fine without any issues until recently. I had a bunch of work done to the car by Fred's Turbo Performance and the problem manifested after that.
Here's what happens and what I've done so far to try to fix it.
- The tachometer started going to 0 RPM at 2K to 3K RPM after I had a bunch of stuff installed and some work done.
- I took the cluster out, bought a new tachometer, sent off to a place called Williamson's Instruments to have rewired into the cluster like Tom had it (Tom fell off the face of the earth and I can't reach him).
- I reinstall the cluster, and it still fails, even with the new tachometer.
- I buy a cheap Sunpro tachometer from a local auto parts store and wire it up directly to test out the 'signal' (+ to the fuse box, - to a good ground, and the tachometer lead directly to the pigtail behind the alternator) and it works fine, no failures.
- I hook the Sunpro up to the auxiliary harness like my cluster is configured and it works fine there too.
- I call Stewart Warner and their tech department is gone (they got rid of it because their tech guys were just calling their distributors for help) and all they can do is send me a free 10K RPM gauge because the 8K has been discontinued.
- So, I get the 10K gauge. I also buy two VDO modulators from Casper's.
- Just to test out something, I hook a modulator to one of the old 8K Stewart Warner tachometers and it flat lines at 0 as soon as I fire up the car.
- I hook up the 10K Stewart Warner with a modulator, and it flat lines too when I fire it up. I take the modulator off, and it fails between 2K to 3K RPM too.
- So...the cheap Sunpro tachometer and the Scanmaster signals are never interrupted... but the Stewart Warner gauges seem to be getting interrupted somehow.
How?
Where is the tachometer signal coming from that goes to that pigtail by the alternator?
How is the signal routed?
Can the signal be weakened by anything and it's just that the Stewart Warner can no longer pick it up (but the cheap Sunpro gauge can)?
I am so lost what to do now, it's been torn apart in the garage since November now...
The following is everything I had installed at Fred's. I had taken it back to him to see if he could fix it but he couldn't find the problem. I know allot of this is mundane and not related but if someone has installed something once that had a synergistic effect on something else then maybe they had the same issue I did and can shed some light:
Blistein Gas Shocks, Eibach Pro-Kit Rate Springs, Energy Suspension Bushings, Gbodyparts Tubular Upper Control Arms, Gbodyparts Tubular Lower Control Arms, Gbodyparts 15
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Zap handles tech over here!
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Zap handles tech over here!
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lol...I'm doomed.
I guess tomorrow, I'll see if I can trace some wires from the alarm brain. That is if I can find the damn thing. If it's just a matter of a few wires that weren't routed properly then maybe I'll be able to swing it. If the whole damn alarm has to come out...I'm taking it in and getting a whole new system. I'm so sick of these electrical gremlins.
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Zap handles tech over here!
You are so screwed. :rofl;
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Send your SW tach to AutoMeter and have them install AutoMeter guts or use your SunPro guts. They'll do funky/fancy things to gauges, but at a price. They're really good with customer service.
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He ain't gonna do that. He is just like me....pissed, and he ain't giving up!
Might just try disconnecting that wire you found spliced into the module and see what happens.
Or find someone else to stick the tach under the hood and connect to the battery and tach test connector and see if the tach works on their car.
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Saw the thread on TBs now, I'd just hard wire the motherfucker to the coil module myself, granted if it works that way.
Might be a frequency issue, if the Viper might have anything to do with it. I've seen cars not run right just because the spark plug wires crossed each other wrong. Electricity is a funny thing.
Speaking of frequencies, anyone notice that a GN hums in the key of D at 2,000 rpms?
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He ain't gonna do that.
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send me a tach, I will try it on one or both of my cars if you cannot find the problem. :)
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send me a tach, I will try it on one or both of my cars if you cannot find the problem. :)
Works for me, I'll send it tomorrow.
Email me an address:
gordyzx9r@hotmail.com
And to rule it out, I'll put the modulators in there too.
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On it's way...
Are we gonna start taking bets that the car is frying tachs or that the tach's are alright?
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This tach was/is definitely ok. It worked perfectly from idle to 4000 rpm.....I am not much on blipping one out of gear any higher.
Worked correctly both at a gradual increase, and with quick blips....
Nice tach, imo.
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Sent it back to you this afternoon along with a spare Autometer tach that you can play with. Feel free to keep it.
As I told you by email, I would guess it is either a module problem, or something you have wired into the module is causing interference.
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Thanks for checking it out Steve. At least now I know it's car sending discombobulate d signals to my gauges. I've got a couple of ignition modules sitting around. First I'll check out those grounds you mentioned in the email.
I just remembered that I have one these CCCI Ignition Simulators (http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=607) too.
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The simulator works well with GM modules, but, not some aftermarket modules.
It will show, on the GM module, that the spark is good but does not check other things like spark bypass, etc.
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I hooked the CCCI simulator and it didn't show anything at all...not sure it's GM.
I replaced the ignition module with a brand new AC Delco, and the coil pack as well with an AC Delco unit; and it works like advertised with the Stewart Warner 10K tachometer. Just need to wait on that 8K to get back and I'll put her all back together then take her in to have the old Viper alarm system completely removed and put in one of the new Clifford systems.
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probably be there tuesday, I would guess.
I never like aftermarket modules and if it did not work with the tester, it was an aftermarket of some kind.
Sounds like progress to me :)
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This is the one I pulled out...no markings on it. The AC Delco one I just put didn't have that black 'gel', it was more of a dull green 'gel'. And the pins were different too.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Module.jpg)
This is one of the hacked up wiring jobs I discovered done by the guys that did my alarm system 4 years ago. It's supposed to be wired up to the tachometer wire coming out of the ignition module...it's not. And repairing that wire will be fun since there isn't much to work with. I wish I had a better soldering iron than the cheap one I have now, might have to invest in one tomorrow.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Wiring.jpg)
Any idea where I could get a light plug assembly like this?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Plug.jpg)
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might check the Help section...don't remember seeing one like that....
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It is normal for aftermarket ignition modules to not work with a Caspers tester.
I bought a Duralast module from Autozone, because it was the only one available on a weekend. It wouldn't work with the tester, but it seemed to work fine on the car.
Makes you wonder if Caspers got their design right ?
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Aftermarket modules have different circuitry.
John was going to build a next generation unit that did more things as well as work with the aftermarket units, but, I have never seen it announced.
Some brands are prone to a code 42.
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Well...I found the socket and bulbs at Lauderdale Speedometer (http://www.lspeedo.com/vdo600.htm). The reason I wanted them is because the dash has provisions on the dummy lights for "POWER INJECTION" and "ALARM" so my plan is to hook them up accordingly and have the POWER INJECTION go off when the alcholol sprays and the alarm is illuminated when activated. They should be here tomorrow and then I just need to see if I can wire in the SMC alcholol control head and alarm indicator lighting into it.
I just got a new CK Performance SS deep sump transmission pan in yesterday...I think the one I have on the car is an old Art Carr or a (reproduction of an Art Carr), but I've tried every seal I can to keep it from leaking and nothing.
Been tracing the wiring on the Viper...I think that lone wire may been the only issue.
I think the next investmet is going to be with Vacuum Brakes and a power logger of some kind.
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Soldered/repaired the wiring on the ignition module today. Gonna try to tidy up the wiring under the dash this evening and maybe solder the alarm wiring and get rid of the butt connectors. Also, gonna try to tidy up all the stuff going to the fuse box (scanmaster, audible knock detector, SMC control panel, and tachometer).
Soldered the wiring back on the tachometer to the cluster aside from the tachometer +/- and tachometer lead. I'll hopefully have the dash put back together this evening or in the morning.
Wasn't quite expecting this kind of a setup...but, it's pretty solid. It's the SS piece from CK Performance, comes with that fabricated neck, two gaskets, and an aluminum shim. I need to look at the seal at the shifter shaft assembly/linkage(?). I was told today that it's common for that seal to get discombobulate d and 'cause a leak.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Filter.jpg)
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/CK%20Performance%20Pan.jpg)
Here is the pan that is currently on the car (notice the drop of fluid about ready to fall off...
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Old%20Pan.jpg)
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If you were to use the grey Mopar Trans/Diff RTV, that pan would never leak.
You probably would never be able to remove it either...
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Damn. I'm using a 4Lxx filter shielded by an Art Car pan, but Don Wang machined it to fit.
I'll have to look at that Mopar RTV, mine is misting goo everywhere, I know it's not the pan or rear main.
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How are you all 'powering' your accessories?
I have the following to 'power':
Scanmaster
Audible Knock Detector
Alcohol Control Panel
Additional Wire to Dash to Illuminate Lamp When Alcohol is Spraying
Tachometer
All of these were just crimped with spades and stuck into empty slots of the fuse box. There has to be a cleaner, safer method.
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Well the dash is rewired and put back together, the 'Power Injection' light lamp on the dash illuminates when the alcohol sprays so that's nice to have now.
However I'm gonna have to get creative with the alarm. It comes with an LED that illuminates when the alarm is armed, I ran it to the 12V lamp on the off chance it was a 12V system...it's not. So, I've got to see if I can (by begging for help on the forums) find a way to trigger that 12V lamp with a series of relays.
Drove the car, and it's insane. I forgot how (comparatively) fast these cars are.
And I have a 'brake' issue to troubleshoot now...great, please just be a damn accumulator ball.
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Well...it wasn't the accumulator. I have a few extra switches too, so I guess I'll throw one of those at it...just need to figure out what kind of socket I need for that. I have a NIB complete Powermaster assembly but I'm not gonna fool myself into thinking I can do that if it comes to it. I figure I'll just use all the Powermaster crap I have and then go vacuum.
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Don't be so afraid of the power master. Just remember one thing: With the key off
(preferably a disconnected battery) pump the brake pedal 25 times to bleed off pressure from the accumulator before servicing any parts. As for you light issue,
Is the L.E.D. bright enough to light up the factory light that you want? You may be able to drill out an old bulb socket to mount the L.E.D.
What is the problem with your brakes anyways ?
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Don't be so afraid of the power master. Just remember one thing: With the key off (preferably a disconnected battery) pump the brake pedal 25 times to bleed off pressure from the accumulator before servicing any parts.
Yeah, I gathered that much from the gn-type website articles about depressurizing the system.
As for you light issue Is the L.E.D. bright enough to light up the factory light that you want? You may be able to drill out an old bulb socket to mount the L.E.D.
It's just an 'Alarm System' window that can be illuminated with a 12V lamp in my gnx-style dash. The alarm comes with an LED and it's illuminated/triggered when the alarm is activated. I had hoped it would be a 12V, but of course it's not because nothing is ever easy :phpbbt;
So, I need to find a way, probably via some relays of some kind, for that LED signal out of the alarm to fire up a 12V lamp. I need to research and see what kind of voltage that LED is getting (I wanna say like 300mv), I'm wondering if I might be able to find a wedge shaped bulb of the appropriate voltage to stick in the socket...
What is the problem with your brakes anyways ?
Brakes have increased travel, don't feel as firm as they did, and the Brake light illuminates if I tap the pedal in succession 4 or 5 times.
So...with the key off, I pressed/released the brakes 10 times. Then turned the key on to see how long it would take for the Brake light to go out. It's taking 8 to 9 seconds.
I replaced the accumulator (I have a few of them) and it did the same thing.
So...B. Turn ignition on and wait until motor shuts off.
1. If motor doesn't self-cycle in 2 minutes without brake apply, proceed to (C).
2. If motor does self-cycle, an internal booster leak requires replacing the Powermaster assembly.
I take it by self-cycle it means that it shuts off after it pumps the fluid back out...I'll go time it now and see what happens.
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Okay...I went out to the garage.
Pressed/released pedal 10 times (on the tenth it got real hard), with the ignition off.
Turned the ignition on and:
Brake light went off at about 8 to 9 seconds.
Motor stopped running at 17 seconds.
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Well..it's looking like it's time to replace the whole Powermaster assembly. It's seeping fluid from the base of the unit where it attaches to the firewal (master cylinder?)l and from the seals below the reservoir.
I have a new one, completely assembled and ready to go on...just need to figure out if this is something I should do or if I should find someone else who can. It's the bleeding of the system that I'm not looking forward too...
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The bleeding is the hardest part.
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Bleeding is easy. Your rebuilt PM should've come with a Turkey baster like syringe.
That is used to force fluid into the pump supply holes. The rest bleeds like a regular brake system..
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What sizes are the threads for the lines going into the Powermaster?
What size bleeder wrenches/flare wrenches are used for the bleeder screws?
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Bleeding is easy. Your rebuilt PM should've come with a Turkey baster like syringe.
That is used to force fluid into the pump supply holes. The rest bleeds like a regular brake system..
I have never bled brakes before on anything...so this will be entirely new for me.
Questions:
This isn't the new brass proportioning valve (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/brakes/prop.html) is it?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Proportioning%20Valve.jpg)
Just to make sure I'm headed in the right direction...th is is the bleeder valve for the front brakes?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Front.jpg)
This is the bleeder valve for the rear brakes (above where the brake line is entering)? What the heck kind of tool do you use to open that bleeder valve with!?!
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Rear.jpg)
I saw a post on gnttype about using Russel Bleeder Valves, has anyone else done that?
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I think its a 9/16" wrench for the lines. I've personally never used the Russell bleeders, but have heard good about them. That is not the brass combination valve.
Those were never recalled on the GNs, just the Caprice wagons. Unless there is a problem, there is no reason to replace the cobination valve. Besides, the replacement was a brass valve that has been discontinued. I bought one of 4 that remained in the country from a dealer in South Carolina when I needed one a couple years back. I doubt there are any left now.
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I think its a 9/16" wrench for the lines. I've personally never used the Russell bleeders, but have heard good about them. That is not the brass combination valve.
Those were never recalled on the GNs, just the Caprice wagons. Unless there is a problem, there is no reason to replace the cobination valve. Besides, the replacement was a brass valve that has been discontinued. I bought one of 4 that remained in the country from a dealer in South Carolina when I needed one a couple years back. I doubt there are any left now.
I found this reproduction (http://www.piratejack.net/Proportioning-Valves/PV2-Brass-Disc-Drum-Proportioning-Valve.html) while researching this. I think Kirban's makes one too. If this is a matter of it ain't broke, don't fix it...then I'll leave it as is.
9/16" to open the valves? Will a flare wrench work? I've seen some folks say something about a wrench with a nipple on it for the rears?
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9/16" flare wrench for the lines at the powermaster. Front bleeders are 10mm, and rears are 8mm ( a 1/4 drive 6pt socket works fine if you don't have the fancy wrench)
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As for the combination valve, If its not broke, don't replace it. Its very likely that is the same valve that Kirban sells.
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This is the fluid that came out...I'm a little surprised seeing as how I had all new SS lines, aluminum drums, S10 upgraded rear brakes, and a complete SSBC system up front.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Project%20Evil/IMG_1803.jpg)
Look at the gunk in the bottom of that:
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Project%20Evil/IMG_1805.jpg)
Getting the pushrod off the brake lever was allot easier when the plastic retaining ring broke :phpbbt;
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Project%20Evil/IMG_1806.jpg)
I was surprised how easy it is to take the whole thing out.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/Project%20Evil/IMG_1809.jpg)
Bled the master cylinder...ble eding the rest of the system and putting the Russel speed bleeders on the rear. Taking a break right now.
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Damn! You work pretty hard! :D
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Damn!
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Well, I used my handy dandy Craftsman vacuum tool to bleed the system and I think I've got her licked. I haven't road tested her yet, but in the drive way I notice a pretty substantial difference.
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CONGRATS on making a substantial difference !!! :supz:
:rofl; As you now know, its really not that hard to do.
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I'm just waiting for it to burst into flames...that would be my luck.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/IMG_1819.jpg)
On the SSBCs, they have two bleeder valves...I bled them both, but does that matter?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/IMG_1791.jpg)
I found two spots where my transmission is seeping fluid. What is this connection?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/IMG_1818.jpg)
I've had the pan off and on and the guy tried a few different types of gaskets. But it's still seeping. I have the new deep sump CK pan with the shims and gaskets that I haven't put on yet.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/IMG_1814.jpg)
Is this the audible chime you hear when you're keys are still in the ignition and the door is open?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/IMG_1823.jpg)
By the brake pedal, there is a bracket with two plunger switches. One is black (bottom) and the other is white (top). The black one appeared to be the switch that illuminated the brake lights. What's the other plunger switch for?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/11/370244/Buick%20Grand%20National/IMG_1827.jpg)
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The chime is black plastic. I believe that the second switch is for the computer
to alert it when you're on the brake so that it can dissengage the torque converter solenoid. May also be for the cruise control. I'd have to check the manual to be sure.
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It also looks like you have a small leak from your speedometer cable housing.
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second pic up from bottom is the turnsignal flasher.
Fourth one up is the speedometer cable. Should be an o-ring around the gear housing that plugs into the transmission housing.
The two switches on the pedal are cruise control, torque converter, and brake lights.
The chime module is about the size of a pack of cigarettes, and is secreted behind the dash fascia between the radio and the instrument panel. Bout impossible to see unless you are laying in the floor with your head under the dash.
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second pic up from bottom is the turnsignal flasher.
Fourth one up is the speedometer cable.
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Well, I used to have a '70 SS/RS and wish I still have it. I do have a '69 SS 396 convertible that is begging me to finish what I started last spring and go driver her. It drives like an old truck compared to the '70.
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Well, I used to have a '70 SS/RS and wish I still have it.
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Well, I used to have a '70 SS/RS and wish I still have it.
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It also looks like you have a small leak from your speedometer cable housing.
It wasn't small..lol. But yeah, the leak was coming from there and running along the rim along the pan. Somehow a piece of metal worked it's way in there from the outside and split the ring. I had that replaced along with a new shaft assemble for the shift linkage (or whatever the hell it's called). Also, a line from the B&M transmission supercooler was seeping, and then there was the transmission lines running into the radiator itself. Seems that the fitting the guy used that went into the new radiator didn't have long enough threads so it was seeping down the front of the radiator and thus covering everything behind it in a nice film of radiator fluid.