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Tech Area => General Auto Tech => Topic started by: TexasT on February 09 2019, 06:19:14 PM

Title: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on February 09 2019, 06:19:14 PM
As if I don't have enough to do, haha. We have embarked on the next project. Not a Buick but will be going with a GM 3800 out of a 2000 Pontiac and going into a 1985 Pontiac Fiero. You may notice the blower on top. Seller claimed it came out of a 2000 Pontiac with 87k miles. But who knows as sellers have been known to spin some tall tails. It turns over with a breaker bar and didn't make any disconcerting noises. So cash was exchanged and we loaded her up and brought it home.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on February 09 2019, 07:18:03 PM
Then we got it home.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mP13y51s/WP-20190209-15-20-32-Pro.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mP13y51s)
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on February 09 2019, 07:31:34 PM
Two serpentine belts

(https://i.postimg.cc/CZyGPsbf/WP-20190209-15-22-13-Pro.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZyGPsbf)

And a blower.

(https://i.postimg.cc/06ppLKCX/WP-20190209-15-21-01-Pro.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/06ppLKCX)
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on February 09 2019, 07:43:07 PM
Nice I’ve always wanted to do that swap!
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on February 09 2019, 07:48:57 PM
My son is pretty stoked. It came with a trans and accessories and he sez he can get the mounts and such to make it work. Also came with the harness and computer so an hp tuners subscription is on the horizon to do some tuning when we get it in there. I guess it is a 4t65e but ill have to do some studying up to see.

Should be a fun ride.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: daveismissing on February 09 2019, 10:06:06 PM
Will be watching this closely. A friend has a 3800 SC out of an Olds and a Fiero sitting in his garage for a few years.His original plan was a small block 400 but I think I persuaded him the 3800 is way easier.
 He was moaning about some guy that made a great conversion kit but quit?.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on February 09 2019, 10:29:41 PM
There is a site called pernocky Fiero or something my son spoke of. And he thinks there are already mounts to use and some vids on the YouTube on how to do it. He is pretty excited.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: good2win22 on February 09 2019, 11:11:17 PM
This is going to be a must watch thread Rich!
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on February 10 2019, 05:48:20 AM
I just hope this engine is decent. I let him check it out. Kind of discussed what I would look at on the way but let him do the forensics and negotiation. He has to learn and it is his money he spent. I just supplied the trailer, straps and tow vehicle to go get it.

Should be a fun one. But as anyone who knows me this will take some time. Still have the 4l60e half assembled and the front end stuff to out back together. It has been cold and rainy(in know, not that cold for you northern fellows) but it is suppose to be fun. And cold hands and fingers aren't fun to me. I'd rather be swimming in sweat.

The car is an 85 Fiero he bought last summer. Him and his buddy went and got it so I didn't get to look it over first. He fooled with the brakes and decided the engine is no good. So we searched up the sc 3800 and away we go.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Scoobum on February 10 2019, 07:44:06 AM
If there's a drop in kit for it...then that'll make it easy. There was a guy that showed up at the track a couple years back with a Fiero that sounded like it had a SBC in it. I got busy with a TR owners car and never got a chance to talk to the gent as I was really interested in it. He never showed up again...so I never did get a look at it or ask questions.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: daveismissing on February 10 2019, 09:56:40 AM
Pennocks Fiero site 
fiero.nl

Original v6s used a similar ECM IIRC
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Scoobum on February 10 2019, 10:24:51 AM
Rich, those 3.8's are bullet proof. The girlfriend has one in her Camaro winter beater with 400,000 km's on it...equates to about 250,000 miles. Starts in any temperature. Check the EGR...they tend to crack. I couldn't find a good one at the wreckers. Had to go with a new one.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on May 28 2019, 03:18:11 PM
I am studying up on this hp tuners so we will be able to program the ecm and such. Also want to be able to turn off the vats on two other vehicles we have. Got to reading on the hptuners forum and the vids on YouTube. They seem to go so fast I have to stop and replay it several times to get where he is going. Watching one where he takes a rise, makes a log and then pulls up he logg and a table and "smoothes" it. Is this just for the speed density I think. And what is the segment swap? Seems to be for the transmission when going from one to another and maybe for going to a flex fuel. Anyone have some insight on what all is entailed in doing this? Thanks






i
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 28 2019, 03:53:59 PM
You can smooth any of the 2d/3d tables.
Segment swap is more for the LS 411/P01 stuff. Segment swaps are for transmission stuff mostly, say 4l60 to 4l80.
FWIW L67 (supercharged 3800) tuning is pretty straight forward. If it's stock you'll force open loop and tune the maf curve for fueling, followed but pulling a pile of timing to keep knock retard under control.
If you get stuck I might be able to help you out - hell if you have internet in the workspace I could remotely help you tune it.

Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Forzfed on May 28 2019, 04:32:17 PM
That thing is going to fly! :cool;   There was a guy with a northstar engine in a Fiero here.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Steve Wood on May 28 2019, 05:13:07 PM
this should be fun!
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on May 28 2019, 05:35:33 PM
Sounds good. It came with the computer and harness so I'm hoping it won't take too much to get it up and running. That would be great if you could take a look at the tune when we get that far. It has a 4t65e with it and that is already in the computer I guess. Right now just doing home work and putting fundage together to buy the programer. I guess we will buy the pro one and be able to log easier . Not sure what else the pro one does more or better than the regular unit.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 28 2019, 06:59:01 PM
You need the pro to log analog signals - I.e. wideband. There are ways around it, some wideband can do serial out and it plugs into the laptop with a usb/serial adapter, or using the a/c pressure sensor, or egr circuits on the factory pcm.
 

Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on May 28 2019, 09:27:08 PM
I think that pro has four channels so we can do fuel pressure too.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on May 29 2019, 06:56:40 PM
https://www.ebay.com/i/221767559952?ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F2%252Fe112358.m43.l1123%252F8%253Fbu%253D43209260029%2526segname%253D16TE1798421_T_HOT_CT3%2526crd%253D20190529090000%2526mpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fi%25252F221767559952%2526ch%253Dosgood%2526url%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fi%25252F221767559952%2526osub%253Daf08a7f69cdf4cd006f8ca454e86763e%25257E16TE1798421_T_HOT_CT3%2526sojTags%253Demid%25253Dbu%25252Cut%25253Dut%25252Csegname%25253Dsegname%25252Ccrd%25253Dcrd%25252Curl%25253Durl%25252Cch%25253Dch%25252Cosub%25253Dosub%2526srcrot%253De112358.m43.l1123%2526rvr_id%253D0%2526rvr_ts%253D05cb1edb16b0ad4a5c5314dcfff94428&ul_noapp=true (https://www.ebay.com/i/221767559952?ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F2%252Fe112358.m43.l1123%252F8%253Fbu%253D43209260029%2526segname%253D16TE1798421_T_HOT_CT3%2526crd%253D20190529090000%2526mpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fi%25252F221767559952%2526ch%253Dosgood%2526url%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fi%25252F221767559952%2526osub%253Daf08a7f69cdf4cd006f8ca454e86763e%25257E16TE1798421_T_HOT_CT3%2526sojTags%253Demid%25253Dbu%25252Cut%25253Dut%25252Csegname%25253Dsegname%25252Ccrd%25253Dcrd%25252Curl%25253Durl%25252Cch%25253Dch%25252Cosub%25253Dosub%2526srcrot%253De112358.m43.l1123%2526rvr_id%253D0%2526rvr_ts%253D05cb1edb16b0ad4a5c5314dcfff94428&ul_noapp=true)


So a wideband seems to come in several brands. I see guys who use the aem stuff and this innovate. Found this on the eBay. It states it give output in lambda and according to some of the bids on YouTube, if you tune in lambda you can go to different fuels easily. I guess once you own the unit you get to buy the brand,style, specific sensor for that unit? Or are the sensors swappable to different ones?
seems this innovate uses a Bosch o2 sensor and I would guess they are readily available. I will look into that .
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 29 2019, 07:01:01 PM
3 types of common wideband sensors Bosch 4.2/4.9 and ntk
Ntk is the best and cost the most
95% of stuff uses a Bosch sensor. 4.9 is the newer better sensor.
I’ve used innovative and aem both work decent for the price.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on May 29 2019, 08:04:11 PM
So, I could use the ntk with that innovate wideband? I get those ntk o2 off rockauto I think to put in the T.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 29 2019, 08:13:22 PM
I’m not aware of any innovative stuff that can use a ntk.
I have a ngk afx wideband that uses the ntk style sensor. This is a variation of what I have https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/index.php/cPath/103_241?osCsid=ie8796kgv85nn31j9sruad0je1 (https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/index.php/cPath/103_241?osCsid=ie8796kgv85nn31j9sruad0je1)
If you do innovative or aem I would connect it via serial as both style units suffer from voltage offset issues when using the analog signals with hptuners.


Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 30 2019, 04:52:49 AM
https://www.amazon.com/AEM-30-4110-UEGO-Ratio-Gauge/dp/B00N3VGPYS (https://www.amazon.com/AEM-30-4110-UEGO-Ratio-Gauge/dp/B00N3VGPYS)


https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-Digital-Wideband-Controller/dp/B00FFTAJPC (https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-Digital-Wideband-Controller/dp/B00FFTAJPC)


These are the 2 I’d be looking at on a budget. Get the full kit so they come with the sensor.
Also do some research on hptuners forum to see what everyone else is having good luck with.

Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Steve Wood on May 30 2019, 09:13:04 AM
I went thru three of of the Innovate LM1 models...I think there is a new one somewhere in my shop some place that I never installed because I had had enough.


I use the NGK AFX like Jeremy.


The AEM like he posted above is very popular and seems to work well as long as lead never touches its lips.  There is a slightly different model that is supposed to be a little more professional but I have read it does not cost much more.

I think this is it.  Has a much larger easier to read display and covers a wider a/f range  The big advantage is claimed to be a much faster response time to changes in the A/F as compared to competitors.
 
https://www.amazon.com/AEM-Wideband-Ratio-Sensor-Controller/dp/B01FEH2GNW/ref=sr_1_7?crid=36E7CRIEL3D50&keywords=aem+wideband&qid=1559222025&s=automotive&sprefix=aem+%2Cautomotive%2C167&sr=1-7
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 30 2019, 03:00:26 PM
I’m not a fan of innovative. The aem units are decent, but I wouldn’t expect it to last forever. I find that I need a lot more datalgging time and quite a few more flashes with the cheaper units.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Steve Wood on May 30 2019, 10:10:42 PM
I have one of the "good" Ngk before they cheapened them up.  The Ballenger version would be the way to go.


Before William got into the nines, I spent a lot of time helping him.  I struggled for months trying to figure out why his car was running so well but the 6.1 chip was adding fuel all the time when the car looked like it was getting fuel.


I asked him if he had ever put leaded gas in the car since he got the AEM.  He did not recall having done so, but, I told him to buy a new sensor and stick it in the car.  Suddenly everything started behaving right and made sense.  I am sure he must have put some leaded in the tank at some time but it could have simply been the heat that got to the old sensor.   Either way, I prefer NGK


If I were buying an AEM, it would be the new faster responding version.  I have always wondered how much "advance" you should put in the fueling to account for the lag.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: TexasT on May 31 2019, 12:17:50 PM
Looks like an aem is the "value pick" as that Ballenger is twice  as much on the least expensive unit. We aren't sending things into space, just down the drag strip.
Does the unit have to have the gauge hooked up or can we just run it into the hp tuner, powerlogger, gnecu and log the lambda? More distractions  when we are trying to cut a light and keep it in the groove of the track is better to me.
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: nocooler on May 31 2019, 01:21:56 PM
aem the gauge is the controller
Title: Re: next project getting started
Post by: Steve Wood on May 31 2019, 02:51:47 PM
Some times, I worry about how many pieces I will bring back down the drag strip
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