IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense

Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Tim Hensley on July 09 2019, 02:55:18 AM

Title: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 09 2019, 02:55:18 AM
will I was good with all my trying to find my cars happy spot and thought I had found consistent 60 at  3100 15 psi.
I know it has more in it with a small converter change but was happy with the 11.55 ET.
Step 2.New tires and set the 2step for 3100.and I’m good to go work on my reaction time.
Wrong off the 2 step it goes about 5 ft blowers the tires off with 5 failed try’s on Saturday trying a couple of different settings.
Yes I went from 5 year old Hoosier 28/9s to MT PBR 28/9. I figured there would be some differences (for the better I hope)but that was not what I expected.
Made 4 passes on Sunday retracing my steps.
First pass lift at 2800 10 psi some improvement didn’t spin  but 1.9,so I added .4 timing.
2ed pass 1.8 60 but 3 degrees KR on 1-2 shift removed timing even thought it was 10.5 -11 AF.
3ed pass 3000 and about 15 lb boost tires spin was slight but got a 1.77 60 I’m going in the right direction.
I couldn’t decide to add air or take out ,MT tech said add air first if it it got worse take air out.
I thought I just try for a repeat to confirm my findings.
4th try went ok tell the 1-2 shift 14 degree KR stop for the day.Engine appears to be ok think it was false I’ll get the plugs out this week and cut the filter open.


That’s how my weekend went.I run a Hellwig bar set to the stiffest setting,car leaves straight and level no drama, Do we think the bigger HR bar will help me plant the tires better?Or should I think about different shocks.or back to the Hoosier? I do like the MT at speed better
Thank you your time
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: TexasT on July 09 2019, 07:59:03 AM
Are the rest of the bushings in the rear new? What are others experiencing with track prep? Are you videoing the launch? The five foot out thing makes me thing weight transfer and that it is unloading but hard to know without seeing it
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: 1 RARE T on July 09 2019, 08:14:12 AM

These are Drag Radials?


What kinda burnout?



Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 09 2019, 09:22:26 AM
What The Rare One asked.


Also, I am not a big proponent of two steps, especially on eleven second cars, and would cut it off to get it out of the equation for the moment.


The Helwig bar should work okay in this range, I would think.  I have never been quite sure if the H&R bar was that much benefit on cars in this range, or not.  The old school ATR size bars have worked on much quicker cars.  First thing I would do is to take a good video of the leave from the rear to see if the rear bumper stays level.  If the drivers side hikes up as compared to the passenger side, then an air bag on the passenger side should fix the problem.


I think everyone today understands no tall pinion snubber.  Those work on leaf spring cars only.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on July 09 2019, 09:51:45 AM
Sway bar isn’t the issue.
If I remember right you were chattering the slicks when the power hit after rolling out. Slicks can recover from that and radials can’t.
Radials need a hard hit and the suspension to separate at the leave to work.





Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 09 2019, 11:07:01 AM
Rain keeps me off my bicycle, so here comes my opinions.

You will not get body separation on an A-body or a G-body, oem. The harder the rear drops on the hit, the quicker it will unload. The most successful are able to delay the unload until farther from the hit and at higher speed. 1.0 G's x 1sec = 22mph. After posting a near mathematically perfect time slip and a video of a really nice clean run, you have chosen to fight a losing battle.

Scoobum flogged his bracket car as hard as anybody. His signature shows 6.72 1/8th (about 10.3-10.5 quarter). 1.72 60'.

From memory, you ran 11.55 and 1.67 short. Having been though this, it is possible to spend considerable resources to gain very little.

One of the quickest A-bodies I got involved with (10.9)was a 355 sbc w/a large nitrous button. He would release a trans brake and instantly hit 200+ nitrous. I thought the pass side rear bumper was going to hit the pavement. Hard counter steer for probably 200+ feet. His time/effort/money/my advice got some really nice runs. He also gained a few hundreds of a second.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 09 2019, 11:21:41 AM

If I remember right you were chattering the slicks when the power hit after rolling out.
wise man advise.. Keep chattering the tires an you will be best friends with the ring an pinion  :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 10 2019, 02:19:31 AM
First thanks for letting me vent.
From the top
All bushings are new less than 5 years,track on Saturday was so so fellow next to me with a 10 second mustang 28/10 was struggling 10 second Toyota was hitting his 60 number and ET.


Yes radials first burnout has hard , just easy the rest of the time and it was grabbing hard and pulling rpm down fast.


Should have pulled the 2step out of the mix on Saturday Sunday for sure my bad. Chucked the snubber the first week I got the car.


Best short was 1.70 @ 11.55  three pass very close to these, all three passes at 3000-31 and 3200 between 19 lb -21 lb boost. This is why I set my 2step @3100 to repeat those passes and start working on reaction time
This pic is the 1.7 60 @11.55
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: 1 RARE T on July 10 2019, 09:06:00 AM

Seems to be transferring weight well.


There's not enough air in those slicks.


Lose all those heavy steel wheels and watch E.T. drop.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: TexasT on July 10 2019, 10:45:34 AM
X2 on the add air. The wrinkles are good but you could be "driving over them" causing the tire to loose traction. Hard to know with out a vid. I'd start with 3 more psi and see where you are from there.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 10 2019, 05:28:27 PM
Thanks again
Those were the kid Hoosier two weeks ago no pic with the MT
Yes the front wheels should go  but backs only weigh 17 lb each Areo racing wheel
Got three weeks to next race got time to regroup my thoughts
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: TexasT on July 10 2019, 10:27:27 PM
Have you been to an area that allows for some "laying" of rubber to see what kind of mark you can make with different pressures? You need two nice marks about the width of the tire. two marks from one tire=need more air, skinny mark needs less air to get the full patch down.
A good gauge and an air tank is real handy for adjustments.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 12 2019, 01:27:15 PM
Yes just down the street may get over there soon
I have 20 logs all have this flat spot. What is this?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 02:02:04 PM
Looks too rich to me

Does it do with the two step turned off?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 12 2019, 02:29:53 PM
Yes 2 step off and with Alky off and lean
With more timing with base timing 8 lb boost to 25 lb
Tire spin or no tire spin that same flat spot
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 02:31:39 PM
I would think your low gear fueling A/F should be 10.9 or so...
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 12 2019, 03:46:25 PM
Low gear is 11.0 today no help on 60
But why dose the rpm go flat?
It is increasing in mph but the converter is doing something
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: 1 RARE T on July 12 2019, 03:50:53 PM
Is that not the 1-2 shift follow soon after by the 2-3?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 03:51:46 PM
if the car is rich, it will make the engine fall on it's face.  That is why I mentioned it.

Looks like the converter is absorbing the rpm until you take your foot off the brake.  It takes off when the car launches if I am looking in the circle you made.  That would not seem abnormal to me.  Either the converter slips or the car has to move
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 03:55:01 PM
Did the transmission flare on the shift to second?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on July 12 2019, 04:10:31 PM


What chips in the car? Do the plugs and wideband agree?
Does it hang at the same spot if you leave easier?
I assume you’ve verified trans fluid level?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 04:12:04 PM
I think that is what the Rare One is talking about.  Looks like it slipped thru second and picked up again in third when looking at the mph behaviour
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 12 2019, 06:23:06 PM
Tim, I like your converter. What diameter? LU? Built locally?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 12 2019, 06:36:34 PM
This takes place before 1-2 shift
Running 6.1 chip and plugs do agree with wide band but have not pulled them the last 6 passes.
AF run around 10.8To 11.5 after I made a low gear fuel change
Trans fluid is good 700 filter deep pan
No matter what rpm or boost pretty much the same. Always goes rich right there spraying Alky   Left Alky of one time it left at over12 AF and has the same flat spot.
I don’t know what flaring is but I don’t think so, this happens befor 1-2 shift
Steve your right throttle is WO I release the break RPMs climes then it go flat then climes to thi 1-2 shift falls back to about Sam rpm climes to the 2-3 shift
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 07:05:41 PM
I was looking at the flat spot in the mile per hour when it hits second, then it seems to ramp up a bit when it hits third. There is a bit of a "bulge" in the rpm rate of acceleration that flattens out around 5000 then picks up again.  Maybe the wheels spun? 
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 12 2019, 07:22:15 PM
It will also be difficult to avoid a rich spot when the alky starts to spray.  The ecm cannot correct fast enough to hide that in my opinion
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 13 2019, 10:38:02 AM
Ok, here goes.

The flat spot. I am used to see slightly different versions of a flat spot in data logs. Tim, you will be really unhappy if the flat spot goes away. It is the converter going from high torque multiplication ( if LU, probably 2.0+) to its highest efficiency (0.92-0.96, probably). Commonly called stall. You can also see the flat spot after the shifts. The rpm goes low enough to get back into multiplication . With turbo/heavy nitrous cars the stall changes with engine torque.
I worked with a 3800# bbc Camaro. The owner used a brake and releasing the brake activated the nitrous. The stall w/o NO was 3500, with nitrous the stall was 5500. The car was 1.29-1.31 short.

I did not see a rpm flare on the shift. Something I have seen several times. I have never seen one where I wondered about it. If it is logged.
I HTH.

edit-I like the converter.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on July 13 2019, 11:56:54 AM
https://www.converter.cc/Yank_SS_Series_Converters_p/ss-buick%20gn.htm (https://www.converter.cc/Yank_SS_Series_Converters_p/ss-buick%20gn.htm)


https://www.converter.cc/STR_Chart_s/82.htm (https://www.converter.cc/STR_Chart_s/82.htm)


Something with about 2.4 STR. IMO.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 13 2019, 02:27:48 PM
What setting on the alky ?? single or double nozzle ?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 14 2019, 04:51:02 AM
The converter is a 9.5 from Lonnie at Extreme Automatics’s.
So the flat spot is good?
I’ve been try to get the cars time slip to be like the Wallace slip, it’s close.
Wheel spin is hard to control some times,hopping the new MT PBR will help.
Alky is set at Julio base and between 6-7 , single nozzle.
 Know for the converter I’m pulling it out to possibly make it stall a little higher to help the short time and tighten up the top ( got 10% slip through the traps).I’m open for help here.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 14 2019, 09:39:07 AM
I will respond. First, I do not tell anybody what they should do/buy. I deal with a number of people/cars. I am well aware of who puts the sweat, time, effort, skinned knuckles and money in these cars.
So the flat spot is good?
The flat spot is a consequence of stall converters. If yours is a LU and was locked before that rpm, there would be no flat spot. I have guys who data log, foot brake and flash stall a 5800 converter from about 2000 rpm. They do not need to circle the flat spot.
I’ve been try to get the cars time slip to be like the Wallace slip, it’s close.
Wallace is physics and math. It saves me from doing it myself. Wallace should be taken as what is possible in a perfect world. Power adder cars will mph high for the ET and turbo Buick's are not perfect race cars. Street/strip cars are not as efficient as dedicated race cars. As I have said, I like where you are for what you have. Just my opinion.
Wheel spin is hard to control some times,hopping the new MT PBR will help.
G-body rr suspension has been beat to death. Just as there are economic 'black swans', there will always be that one guy who went 1.xx with x,y or z. Most never get in the 1.6x. Let alone making clean runs.Decide how important street is vs going a few hundredths quicker 60's. If you can not stand the car blowing the tires away whenever it wants, alter the suspension.
Know for the converter I’m pulling it out to possibly make it stall a little higher to help the short time and tighten up the top ( got 10% slip through the traps).I’m open for help here.
Things to think about.The stall is pretty high now. About 5000.
Higher stall typically will exhibit higher slippage.
You are having some amount of problems holding the tires now.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 14 2019, 09:45:21 AM
The only area that looks funny to me is the area that I marked in red.  Something is going on there.  MPH rate of acceleration seems to flatten out for a bit


The RPM graph shoots up, flattens out, then takes off again.  I don't know if the converter flashed up, held until the car caught up, or what, but the MPH seems to be flattened for a moment.


It does not seem to coincide with the car being too rich for low gear.  I also see you lost some boost in this period.

I just read the post above mine and I agree that the stall is more than high enough for your combo...


I am not as enamored with the converter as others, but, it seems to be doing what converters do.  I don't think we have enuf info to call this one. 
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 14 2019, 09:59:46 AM
I see what you are pointing out. However, is that the converter? If so, will the next one be better or worse?

I know a guy a few years ago, who bought 5 nitrous converters just to get 3500 rpm stall. A number of racers tried to tell him, stall is not a finite quality. More money in converters than the rest of his car. He did not seem to mind and I certainly did not. For those that do not know me, this is not a criticism.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 14 2019, 10:05:51 AM
I don't recall blaming the converter.  I think the current converter has too much stall as I think it should be closer to 4000 than 5000.  I just don't see anything great about apparent converter performance, or any reason to make it even higher.


I see some strange things going on but as I said, I don't think we have enuf evidence to blame it on anything at this point.


I would sort out his apparent false knock problem as pulling a bunch of timing on the shift will not do anything for performance.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: 1 RARE T on July 14 2019, 10:15:16 AM
I think it's lean in high gear.


My car loved fuel being put to it.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 14 2019, 10:18:21 AM
I am not good at reading these scales, but, it does look lean
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on July 14 2019, 10:38:10 AM
That's what stood out to me Steve. 25psi and that kind of RPM I would expect more wheel speed.


Tim, if your happy with the way the car runs, drives, handles, etc - put the slick back on and just enjoy it. If you enjoy the challenge - getting the Radial to work, should net you some ET/MPH. In the end you need to be happy with it.












Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 14 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Looking at the boost drop, it looked like the load came off the engine causing the boost to come down a bit...


I agree, do what Jeremy said :)
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 14 2019, 02:05:57 PM
All this talk just keeps opening my eyes and mind to better understanding. And like Steve says lots of broken parts don’t make me a racer. Don’t what to be that guy.
5000? That’s up there don’t need it any higher for sure. I should be able to work with what I have and not worry about the 10% slip it’s a None  Locking.


Thanks Steve your right Buick people have a good converter in the PCI from Dusty,I went with Lonnie because this converter has a sprag and new there would be some challenges. I will take time to think about the stall being to high,I can overthink this stuff sometimes. And a light came on with this torque multiplication thing

Thanks nocooler Yes I’m happy with it how it drives on the street.


Thanks rare T I’ll look at that down the road thought it was a bit rich up there and was mostly looking at the short time stuff.
 
I think in the hot part of the day I’ll push the fluid back in the trans and look for what came lose to cause the false KR.plugs have no sign of real knock.








Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on July 14 2019, 03:04:05 PM
I'm missing something here. Where are we seeing 5000 rpm stall? The first sentence in the first post says 3100 rpm at 15 lbs of boost. that seems low to me. Also dropping 1000 rpm on the shifts.
And the OP said Lonnie said to make changes somewhere on here.
 To quote Brad ''school me''.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on July 14 2019, 03:13:43 PM
SORRY duplicate post
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on July 14 2019, 03:41:18 PM
He’s leaving at 3100 off a 2step. You can see the rpms go to 5000ish and hangs as the converter is coupling and levels off then continue to rise. Steve marked it out in red. I still see opportunity to test different rpm/boost and see what happens.


It’s loose enough to spool his combo and He’s not blowing thru the converter out the back if the slip is 10%. We don’t know what it was spec’d for - there could have been a future turbo upgrade planned down the road. We don’t even know what density altitude he runs in.




Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on July 14 2019, 03:51:16 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 14 2019, 05:18:21 PM
Now that we see where the 5000 rpm comes from, I will again state that the boost dropped a couple of pounds in that area and that the wheel speed acceleration also slowed momentarily in the same time period.


Normally, I would have expected the boost to stay more steady and the rate of speed increase to be about the same in that area.


Tim, when I said I was not as enamored with the converter as others, I was referring to what seemed to be an approval of its performance based on the short time.  I thought The 10% slip on top was pretty damn good.  My first thought was that the alky drowned it but that is not what the A/F suggests to me.  That usually happens at lower rpms, anyway.


I am surprised it dropped a 1000 rpm on the shift.  That says the converter is pretty damn tight and it is pulling it back to that magic 5000 LOL rpm again but we (I) don't see the drop in rate of mph acceleration.  I would have expected it to be more like 500-700 rpm.


As you said, Tim, I would look into the false detonation as it can slow you down when it pulls timing of any amount. False detonation can come from several things...even a little hop in the rear tires will do it on a shift...  It could be that hard drop on the shift...


As I said way back, I would see what happens when the two step is off.  Take as many variables out of the equation as possible for testing.  Let the variable be your driving style :)


Look at your BLM correction box and see how hard the ecm is working to get the requested A/F.  You might be able to help it out with a change in the factor.


You might also leave the timing on Eric's defaults for the time being.











Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 14 2019, 07:30:08 PM
Lots to take in Steve your right just looked at half a dozen logs all go to 25ish and drop to 22 ,after the 1-2 shift then back to 25 and smooth out.
Each shift dropped to 4700
I’ve made 24 passes with this converter no KR tell the last pass #24 and pass #22
BLM were a tad high around 145 and I made a adjustment to 135 that adjustment was pass 5  and BLM have been staying under 130-135 as I added timing it has slowly dropped too. Only added 1.4 degree. Lonnie felt 10 was a tad high but not worth chasing just that number not been back to the track without the 2step but it out.


No future changes converter is for this setup. I live in Hawaii and track is probably 200 ft or less.


I’ll push post and go look for the false KR. I have a RJC mount and stock motor mount
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 14 2019, 08:28:16 PM
So..
4700 stall @ 22# boost,
prob 3300 stall @ 15#.
I would guess it does really well @ light throttle/no or little boost on the street. Probably moves the car right along @ 2000-2500 rpm.

I have to admit, I am curious where you go from here. I think the smart money is on trying to go a little faster.

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 14 2019, 09:42:00 PM
Tim, I harp on turning stuff off trying to simplify things and squeeze out things that don't make sense.


Technology is not always trustworthy.  I spent months trying to get William's car to run like we thought it should.  No matter what we did, it kept adding fuel (same chip as you)  When I looked at the narrow band numbers, the car did not look lean to me.


Eric messed with the chip, William changed all kinds of things, car did not run differently.  Finally, I told him to put a new wb sensor in the car and try that.  The car picked up four tenths running on the chip defaults.  I am pretty sure that he put a few gallons of race gas in it and the sensor went out of calibration.


I always compare the nb numbers to the wb numbers to see if they seem to agree.


I saw another car that was running about 10.6 and the wb and narrow band were not in agreement.  His tuner said it was fine.  I said something is wrong.  He put his fp gauge on the windshield and he was running on alky the last part of the race because the fuel pressure went away.


I drove my GN Friday to get it inspected.  I had not driven it for several months.  I noticed the wb said it was idling at 14.5 when it normally was set around 12 and that looked wrong but it idled nice and fine.  I was cruising down the road at 75 and the wb said (via my scanmaster) that it was running at 17.8.  I looked at the nb and it was varying between 000 to 040 which is normal cruise which is usually close to 15.  I opened my glovebox where my NGK controller is stashed and it was reading 14.7 which was normal. 


Now, why is the SM via PL reporting 17.8 and controller saying 14.7.  I don't have a clue but it is not the first time I have seen such.  I went thru the SM screens to EGT and it said it was idling at 1825 degs...and that ain't right either.


I am not going to be surprised when  I connect my laptop that PL is reading one thing and the SM is reporting something else.  Bob told me that could not happen but I have seen it on my other car read vacuum at one thing on the SM, another thing, on PL and the PL agreed closely with the boost gauge. 


I have a thing about dumbing it down to try to verify things because I have seen so many things that don't look right and some times things are not what they seem to be and we have to go back to basics and work our way forward.


Too much data and too many variables are not always a good thing.  Therefore, Stone Age it now and then  :rofl:



Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 15 2019, 12:59:51 AM
So..
4700 stall @ 22# boost,
prob 3300 stall @ 15#.
I would guess it does really well @ light throttle/no or little boost on the street. Probably moves the car right along @ 2000-2500 rpm.

I have to admit, I am curious where you go from here. I think the smart money is on trying to go a little faster.
You have described the car to purification. Faster was the purpose but I’m looking for my false KR today.


[size=78%]My 02 volts go .913start of the run to 799 most every pass.[/size]
I see both wb and nb # I don’t know what I’m looking at but nb are good numbers rich for sure.wb too
Plugs showed that last night, even with the RJC plat front is richer than back no surprise, can’t guess what it would look like without it.got 6k miles on them,put a new set of NGKs closed the gap just a bit to .035 even though I have no spark problem at .040.


Wide band has never seen race gas or octane boost. I log fuel and Alky both track as they should my fuel as always been a little behind but I think it’s the offset number but it close.


Passenger side header is close to the upper A arm bushings heat shield, don’t remember it being that close and RJC rear motor brace being adjusted that fare,I’ll be looking at the engine mount this week

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 15 2019, 07:54:23 AM

 looking for my false KR today.

Bye all means. Here is where I defer to people who have experience w/turbo Buicks. I nave none. I fear it enough, I installed an audible alarm in a completely original gn.

I do have some experience with both kinds of O2 sensors. Narrow and wideband. They are used to tune carb's. Most applications are exclusively race gas. In my world, if you wonder about the output, you change the sensor first. This should not be taken as advise. There are people here who were dealing with these issues over 10 yrs ago.

Good luck.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 15 2019, 08:47:02 AM
Too much data and too many variables are not always a good thing.  Therefore, Stone Age it now and then  :rofl:
Very True . Some forget the basics. Easy to do really.
I'd fix the knock issue first.
 :chin:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: gusszgs on July 15 2019, 04:12:38 PM
Too much data and too many variables are not always a good thing.  Therefore, Stone Age it now and then  :rofl:
Very True . Some forget the basics. Easy to do really.
I'd fix the knock issue first.
 :chin:


lol....my best run ever was going via stone age. Just focused on the SM and boost........p oint n shoot
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 15 2019, 05:14:59 PM
I'm wondering if the two step builds a lot of heat, fast, in the combustion chamber?  Normally, we add timing in low gear to get the turbo to spool-particularly if the converter is a bit tight.


I'm wondering it would run quicker if we did not add extra timing?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 15 2019, 08:16:43 PM
I'm wondering it would run quicker if we did not add extra timing?
We do a lot of track rentals to "try" our new idea's. Some work some didn't. It's all a learning curve.  :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 15 2019, 09:34:23 PM
you don't know until you try :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 15 2019, 10:36:49 PM
Tim, you ever try launching that thing by shocking the converter?  In other words, bring it up to 6-7 psi against the brake and then hammering it when the light changes?  Sometimes that will give more torque multiplication than bringing it up to close to full stall against the brake...let's it flash stall even higher

that's a case where more timing may work better
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 16 2019, 01:59:54 AM
No I haven’t. Like Grumpy said some stuff works and some doesn’t. And what I’m doing is not working  so well. Some of its better passes have been around 15, no more constant passes.
I’m almost positive I have a broken motor mount,won’t have time tell this weekend to address. I did order a mount from RJC and talked about the proper way to adjust his motor brace   
Thanks for input
I have a punch list started.
1 check tire pressure and contact patch
2 set chip timing to default and go back to the basics
3 start at lower boost and rpm
One I can make two or three good clean passes,sit in my chair and make one change at a time
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on July 16 2019, 07:42:59 AM
Just a couple things that did not  work for me.
1 tying the motor down solid. Limited movement seemed to work better in 60 ft.
2 The ATR rear bar would keep the rear suspension from working at all and spin the tires. Plus it made the car drive like a buckboard. JMO.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 16 2019, 01:18:10 PM
Just a couple things that did not  work for me.

2 The ATR rear bar would keep the rear suspension from working at all and spin the tires. Plus it made the car drive like a buckboard. JMO.


Yup... works for some an not for others. We have used it on a lot of cars with good results. Used it all the way into the high 9s.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 16 2019, 01:21:16 PM
Broken MM you can leave the hood open an power brake the car. You can see if it's doin the watusi looking threw by the bottom of the hood.  :cool; Hows the trans mount ??
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 16 2019, 01:24:17 PM
 :cheers: :rock: that's the easiest way I know
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 16 2019, 03:41:43 PM
Tim, I have no idea how much experience you have drag racing. When track tuning to a time slip, rollout can easily change the ET by 0.15 sec. If you rely on the time slip to determine yea/nay to anything you have to leave the same. Most (myself included) can not do this reliably. If you would like, I can explain how to take the driver out of the equation. As much as possible.

Also, if you are going to foot brake/flash stall, you cannot leave while pushing forward. You have to hold the car w/the brakes. Not all cars can foot brake successfully.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 16 2019, 09:41:37 PM

Also, if you are going to foot brake/flash stall, you cannot leave while pushing forward. You have to hold the car w/the brakes. Not all cars can foot brake successfully.
that can be tuff to do but it CAN be done. have to practice. the tuneup matters a lot. We foot brake. Every one she races has a trans brake. She brings the boost to 3#s then bumps in and the race is on.
Ok just how fast do you want to go ??  :chin: Are you racing or just want a time slip ?  :player:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 16 2019, 10:58:06 PM
Grumpy, not my place to answer, but. I think they are working on knock. It was suggested to flash stall. I was responding to that. I do not go far enough back and get off track sometimes.
That and AFAIK, Tim has been racing half his life and could teach me. It is the Internets.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 17 2019, 03:16:33 AM
Grumpy and wmsonto We race all year round in Hawaii, my number was 11.5 ET just to say I did.I have went 11.55 three times guess I can say I did it.I want to race the car ,all we have is bracket racing here,so I’ll be looking down the road to do that. I want to be running in the 11.5 to 11.7 ET.


Grumpy your cars are a inspiration to me I watch what you have to say on both boards. I just don’t want to put a bar in the car.


Wmsonto you got some good reading on bracket racing I’ll read it.

 
Not a professional Drages racer, I have a few AMA amateur championships to my name.I guess that makes me have a competitive bone or two.


I don’t really get the bracket racing science, like I said just wanted to out run some of the local racers on a regular day and drive it home. I will figure it out ,that being the car and bracket racing.


As for KR 99% sure it’s the mounts ,I know this car pretty good and can see the engine has shifted to the passenger side. Don’t really understand the shift in that direction the drivers side should be much higher than it is. Trans mount looks good,down pipe mount is stretched and down pipe is down below the fram rail. I will check cross member bolts and transmission too , had them out few months back.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 17 2019, 04:20:52 AM
ok I understand. We ran mid 11s for years .  Matter of fact we did lots of Buick set ups for mid 11s. I wouldn't do anything faster back then. Didn't need grumpy customers blowing stuff up  :icon_lol:   Like you said ya want to have some fun an drive home.  :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 17 2019, 09:31:20 AM
Tim, you had to go and ruin the best thread we have had in a long time.  Some times, these threads take on a life of their own and it is something like the example of the first person in line turns around a whispers a short story in the ear of the next guy and says "Pass it on!".  By the time it gets to the end of the line, there is no resemblance to the initial story.   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rock:


BTW, I believe the car will be in the 11.4's with very little effort/change once it all comes together  :cheers: And, I am totally with you.  Bracket racing is not my cuppa tea.  :cheers:




Wmsonta!  My suggestion to launch off the brake at lower boost was primarily aimed at seeing what effect, if any, it had on the drop of boost at the top of first gear and the momentary decrease of acceleration which is undoubtedly costing him a little bit at the finish on the run from which those graphs came.  Obviously, I think, this was a suggestion to try after the false detonation cause had been found and rectified :)

I am pretty sure I mentioned it, but, I had at least two primary questions in my mind.  Variation in converter design and the effect of combustion chamber heating with a two step versus no two step



Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 17 2019, 11:45:57 AM
This thread has potential
60 foot times should be the topic of ever racer. Bracket or heads up. And  there must be lots of 11 second cars.



Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 17 2019, 01:34:56 PM
Don’t think outlaws and no prep care about 60 ft role out or even reaction time.
Grumpy  our anyone what did a 11 seconds time slip look like?

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 17 2019, 03:54:50 PM
Don’t think outlaws and no prep care about 60 ft role out or even reaction time.
Grumpy  our anyone what did a 11 seconds time slip look like?


ohhhh they sure do !!!  Melissa is good on the instant green .  She runs "NO TIME" events. Not interested in NO PREP. They are great to watch but we value the car to much  :O :rofl: No time slips handy.. That was back in the day till 2004 I think.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 17 2019, 04:16:22 PM
Digression, here.


The most fun I ever had racing was "The line it up and show me just how bad that piece of sh** (fill in the brand) is!  I got X amount of money to find out!"


There was always some idiot that would stand in the middle of a country road and flag 'em off!  I think the State Troopers loved those days as much as we did.  A few nights were memorable.  It seemed to go downhill with the passing of the 'sixties. 
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on July 17 2019, 05:43:32 PM
"Wmsonto you got some good reading on bracket racing I’ll read it"
Tim-Get the knock issue fixed. Then, if you like, I can suggest a way to compare any two changes with no math involved. Apples to apples. The way you race now vs foot brake. 2 step vs no 2 step. Engine tune. Etc.

"She brings the boost to 3#s then bumps in and the race is on."
Grumpy-Yeah, foot brake is all about finding a leave that is easy to hold and easily repeatable. Let the converter do the work.

"  My suggestion to launch off the brake at lower boost was primarily aimed at seeing what effect,"
Steve Woods!-I understood that and agree. I think everybody should try foot brake first.

"This thread has potential
.............. .............. .. And  there must be lots of 11 second cars."
Tim-There are currently 540 views.I would say there are a number of 11 sec cars at the track. Damn few legit 11 sec street cars.

"Digression, here."
Steve- Yup, I lived though it. If I can post this picture-it will be of the most hardcore street racer I help. His pickup goes 11.85 at the track and probably 12.0 on the street. He refuses to compromise any more street-ability. I do not believe he has ever lost on the street in KC. He lost in the picture. The other car used to be a NHRA record holder Super Stock slant six.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 17 2019, 06:06:28 PM
Some one needs to get you into your Buick.  I suspect you might be surprised how easy it is to have a 11 second street Buick these days :D

Buicks are easy compared to some of this old stuff.  I need to get back on this one and try to get it to go straight when you give it some gas.  Street tires are not helping.  My son told me I just could not drive anymore, but, as you see, when he eased into it, he lost his nerve quick!  Made my day!

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/Challenger.mp4
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Pyro6 on July 17 2019, 06:38:53 PM
Since i don't have a GN anymore, just my .02$. Where I was headed and working on and what I think would have made us consistent was boost control and leaving off RPM's. Saves the equipment and gives a good 60. I'll come back to beat a dead horse, bracket racing these cars on a regular basis against other cars than turbo Buicks is a true challenge.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on July 17 2019, 06:43:11 PM
A new redeye will run 10's 100% stock. Yes it takes a good track and driver but still.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 17 2019, 07:08:20 PM
yep, seems like magic to me but they do it with relative ease...the use of technology is amazing on some of these modern cars
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 17 2019, 08:57:32 PM
the new stuff out now is crazy. pricey?? ya BUT it has a warranty. I am really considering a 2020 GT 500.  :rock:
..nowadays a 10 sec Buick is easy to do and very reliable. Russ just did one for the HOT ROD Power Tour. never missed a beat. Amazing cars still getting attention  :cool;
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 17 2019, 09:05:05 PM
Dan, that is the amazing thing-they warranty them!


As far as the cost, they are in the range of a loaded Ford Pick up...the fact that people pay that for a damned truck is what blows my mind.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 18 2019, 04:34:37 AM
You should see my truck.2 grand and it has a automatic 2hundred K on the clock.and it can part the intersection like Moses parted the Red Sea.
My wife poor truck is halfway in a restoration but is playing second behind her husbands black car.
Got her Xterra in a million pieces too and let me tell you much more complicated than a 3.8 Buick
Show your sun this ,my daughter she stay in it to the 1-2 shift.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 18 2019, 08:16:44 AM
Lol

I think there is a little  movement in the tail end of the leaf springs mounting point.  A very stiff Hotchkiss suspension is not helping either.  Of course 630 ft lbs of torque aggravates it.  It really makes a hard move to the left when it kicks the tail out.  I need to talk to one of my fabricator friends and see if he can do some work on it.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Grumpy on July 18 2019, 12:18:45 PM
Dan, that is the amazing thing-they warranty them!
As far as the cost, they are in the range of a loaded Ford Pick up...the fact that people pay that for a damned truck is what blows my mind.
Steve I am old an guilty of it. Have to enjoy it while your here. Any car/truck we have needs a moon roof for Hunter. We drive a lot goin back an forth between Ma./NH (30k a year). Drive it up to 100k then the kids get it and if Iam still alive I get a new truck. :icon_smile: Now price up a diesel F-350 for a $100k  :O


.have to spend it now instead of waiting for the gov to tax it more !  :013:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 18 2019, 01:12:19 PM
I cannot disagree with any of that-especially about a moon roof for Hunter!


It's amazing how quickly we rack up the miles today.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Forzfed on July 18 2019, 03:57:11 PM
the new stuff out now is crazy. pricey?? ya BUT it has a warranty. I am really considering a 2020 GT 500.  :rock:
..nowadays a 10 sec Buick is easy to do and very reliable. Russ just did one for the HOT ROD Power Tour. never missed a beat. Amazing cars still getting attention  :cool;
Do it Dan!  That thing is a beast!  I was driving my buddy's new Bullitt, he has every option.  With the magnetic ride I just can't get over how smooth it is.  And I love how you can change the sound of the exhaust.  You can see the valves in the tail pipe.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 19 2019, 02:24:55 PM
Got my HR mount today nice part ,money well spent
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 19 2019, 03:59:30 PM
Passenger mount?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 19 2019, 04:48:53 PM
Drivers side HR and a new stock passenger side  brand is
Weststar only parts store on the island had one took it because the box was dusty and yellow from sitting on the shelf for twenty years maybe better than new stuff
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 19 2019, 04:54:22 PM
Bet it is
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on July 21 2019, 02:34:43 PM
Guess I don’t know my car that well. Passenger mount was ok new mount made no difference in its location to upper A arm and header.Drivers side did change some it was not broken but motor did raise a 1/4 in.


Do I need that heat shield for the A arm bushings? You can see it touched. I double checked all bolts loosened the down pipe and took the strain of the hanger and it went back in place. Off to the races next week to give it a go.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on July 21 2019, 04:01:26 PM
I have never used a heat shield there.  I'm sure it will make the bushing last a bit longer but I have only replaced a few in all these years.  You may not put enuf miles on the car to ever find out :) Note to myself to check the GN
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on August 11 2019, 04:23:29 AM
Tim, you ever try launching that thing by shocking the converter?  In other words, bring it up to 6-7 psi against the brake and then hammering it when the light changes?  Sometimes that will give more torque multiplication than bringing it up to close to full stall against the brake...let's it flash stall even higher

that's a case where more timing may work better
My 3 week off turned into 4 with the rain out last week.
Gave me time to install motor mounts new plugs and to add confusion to the mixture a TR6
Made 4 passes no KR. That probably solved.
After the first pass I pulled one plug I knew it would not be a try plug reading but you can get a idea of the heat range. The NGK UR5 is a little colder than the AP25 and I think I like the hotter plug a little better but most run it so I’ll stick with it a little longer. I run both plunges and old ignition at .035 gap no problem. My coils and ignition box was OEM with 90k but worked good. I truly believe the TR6 is better ,it made no ET improvement and I didn’t expect it too.
I did however got distracted after my first pass and left the plug wire off and the car had no noticeable miss but doesn’t run worth a shit in the 1/4 ,that was a abandoned run.
I remembered to try shocking the converter on my 3ed of 4 passes the 60 was a 2.0
I started the day with the chip back to default except the BLM cell and WOT A/F 108 the first pass was the best pass of the day.
3000 rpm 12 boost,11.61@118.3 no Kr 60 ft 1.84
Second pass I added 1.1 timing but abandon after I let the brake off at 3000 and the car just set there
3ed pass  with same timing , [size=78%]2400 at 6 psi  to shock the converter ET 11.94 @116.1 60ft 2.0[/size]
4th and final  1.1 timing  WOT A/F to 110 ,3000 rpm 12 boost ET 11.63 @117.3 60ft 1.81


Conclusion of the day 3000 @12 psi it’s ET is dead on. So I have a high 10 to low 11 car running 11.6. I’m going to leave the tune as it is making me a 11.6 tuner.
Next turn this 14 second driver into a 11 second driver.
I need to figure how to get the car staged at 3000 rpm boost up 12 -15 before the light has been green for 1.5 to 2.0 seconds. Reaction time has been way down on my priority list, time to move it up.
I can live with the 60 foot blues and no longer see it as a handicap but a blessing.
And I have a new mountain to clime and that is my reaction time.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on August 11 2019, 08:56:04 AM
LOL...


You got a PL from one of the 1.8 runs you can post?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on August 12 2019, 02:54:40 AM
first pass
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on August 12 2019, 10:53:36 AM
Tim, which wide band are you running so I can set up PL, and how tall are your tires so I can figure the speeds (I assume you have not changed the speedo gears)...thanks
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on August 12 2019, 01:45:17 PM
AME  tire is 28 X9-15 pro bracket I think the log showed 3 mph slower than slip
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on August 12 2019, 01:51:26 PM
AEM my bad
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on August 12 2019, 03:34:12 PM
The mph is kinda strange.  It's only a couple percent off and it should be closer to 8%.  It reads like my car did with 28 inch tires and a 27 tooth speedometer gear instead of the stock 30 tooth gear.


The short time is slower than I would expect, but, it may simply be the track prep.  I don't know how sticky the track is and that makes all the difference.  Looks like the tires are breaking loose a little right after launch according to my look at the mph/rpm curve bump.


The top end mph is probably about right because you are not running very high boost and the car looks rich to me.  If it were me and I was looking for more performance, it would set it to 27 psi for a look.  The boost control is still a bit wonky at launch for some reason.  Kinda wonder if that comes from a bit of wheel spin that drops the load on the engine a little for a short time.


Given the above, I don't think I see anything really wrong with the run, or the car.  It's probably running about right for the boost level.


Not knowing anything about  your local area, is the humidity high?



Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on August 12 2019, 06:12:38 PM
one thing I just noticed (if I calculated right) zero slip in the drivetrain should have given you about 131 mph...  or about 11% slip.  I guess that is not that bad after thinking about it.  Probably cost a lot to get much less.  :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on August 12 2019, 06:24:46 PM
Thanks for your kind words
Speedometer is close 255 -60 tires and the radar speed limit sign is 1 or 2 mph off think I have a 27 tooth. It’s a Turbo smart controller I can probably tune that spike out , might go away if i turn it up to 27.
Yes that pass wideband correction is 10.8 last pass 11.0 slip looked the same just 1 mph slower at1/4 and 1/2 mph at 1/8 mile
Hawai’i is humid 60% today I think it was over 50 on Saturday track is close to sea level temperatures 85 88 max.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on August 12 2019, 09:22:21 PM
humidity never helps as it takes up some of the room that air molecules could be occupying but that is not too bad.  Long ago, you said Lonnie or someone said bump up the stall and that would help because it would probably like leaving at more boost and rpm, but, I would practice driving and being consistent since you are not contesting anyone in particular.  Enjoy the car for awhile  :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on August 13 2019, 02:46:31 AM
Always good advice on this form. Enjoy the car is just what I’m going to do.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 07 2019, 09:17:10 AM
You have to flash the convertor to 3900 minimum to get into the 1.5's. Bring up the gauge panel on PL and have a look. Go one frame at a time until the MPH moves to 1...and then go back one frame at a time till hit hits zero...then look at your RPM's.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 07 2019, 09:22:02 AM
Looking at your PL file you only flashed the convertor to 3025.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 07 2019, 09:29:49 AM
And your low gear fueling is in the 870's. You need to drop it to around 780. I'm gonna write an article on how to launch these cars with no money.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 07 2019, 01:49:06 PM
Thanks for taking the time to look at the logs.
It’s definitely rich at takeoff,Alky is spraying like mad.
I have a log with Alky off it was low 800 same 3000 rpm
Do you have any theory  why RPMs do flat just before the 1-2 shift?
Been down the last two track sessions going next week,setting takeoff boost to 15 lb and try to hold 3100
Looking forward to your article
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 07 2019, 02:35:43 PM

Julio has his default alky start spraying at 6 psi and you left at 11 psi. Alky is a fuel...so it's prolly bogging the engine down at takeoff. These engines rolled off the assembly line running 14 psi with straight pump gas. Julio has an adjustment for the turn on point...and also for volume. When I ran my SMC kit I had it coming on at 12 PSI...dependin g on how accurate the knob was.


What turbo are you running...what size exhaust housing...and journal or BB? What convertor is in it...and what's the stall rated at. We'll start with that.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 07 2019, 07:25:49 PM
1 5857 .63 af precision ballbearing
2 Lonnie at Extreme Automatics’s,converter rated 2800 I think it a little higher none locking

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 07 2019, 08:00:47 PM
I wonder if that turbo is capable of supplying enough air on the top end of each gear?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 08 2019, 01:55:24 AM
With no map do we even know?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 08 2019, 02:03:24 AM
Tim is that a Precision or Garrett exhaust housing? Steve...the 5857 is pretty much the replacement for the 44/49.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 08 2019, 09:13:59 AM
Yep, that's the reason I wondered.  He has a pretty strong engine and is turning a lot of rpm.  I have seen a couple of good engines that died on top end due to insufficient air coming out of a 49. 
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 08 2019, 09:56:42 AM
Think Tim is running 24ish PSI of boost. It'd be pretty much out of breath. Likely is the larger Precision exhaust...whic h would make spoolup characteristic s tougher than the smaller Garret. Tim you need to get the low gear fueling around the 780's...that'll help it spool quicker. Don't sit on the footbrake for more than 3-4 seconds or you'll fry the clutches in the transmission. I assume the blue alky knob is on the default.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 08 2019, 01:44:53 PM
It is precision ex and I try not to sit on the break very  long
I’ll look at some logs tonight
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 08 2019, 06:17:17 PM
Tim...can you get someone to video the rear 1/4 of your car leaving the line. You might see it bottoming out the rear suspension and unloading the rear tires...like mine did. I don't know shit about IC or pinion angles...so I came up with a keep it simple stupid fix for it. Car did 1.5's like it was a walk in the park after the fix.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 08 2019, 06:32:23 PM
Don't let the trans temp go over 200. Logs show your trans shifting real nice. Think I read in this thread you've gone 11.5. God forbid if you launch it a little harder and get the fueling dialed in. Temp around 65-70 and 50 to 60 percent humidity...it'll crack the 10's.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 08 2019, 09:52:50 PM
Steve...here's the charts and writeup from Patrick when he did his last stint at Precision. That turbo on Tims car...should spool like a mad whore with that convertor he has according to Patricks chart. My car was a pig with Arts 16930 and the 6262 JB I had with Ercis chip on the default settings. You could get out and run faster. Jump the low gear timing to 34 degrees and the low gear 02's just below 800 and it left the line like no ones business.


Tim...don't bump the timing like I did. I ran race gas.


Tim gets the low gear fueling dialed in...and adds maybe 2 degrees of low gear timing...watch what happens.


https://turbobuick.com/threads/precision-turbos-new-turbo-listing-for-buicks.296529/ (https://turbobuick.com/threads/precision-turbos-new-turbo-listing-for-buicks.296529/)
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 08 2019, 10:37:00 PM
Latest with MT Bracket Pro
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 08 2019, 10:39:02 PM
Time slip
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 08 2019, 10:45:17 PM
log file
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: good2win22 on September 08 2019, 11:45:58 PM
Nice slip!
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 09 2019, 09:58:55 AM
Frame 49.900 shows wheel spin. Low gear tune is way fat. High gear 02's at the traps was about 823. MPH is decent. What was the temp and humidity?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Forzfed on September 09 2019, 02:03:37 PM
Nice slip!  Car has good mid range pull. :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 09 2019, 03:32:13 PM
Hawaii 80 80 temp
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 09 2019, 09:51:51 PM
Hawaii 80 80 temp



I'll assume the humidity doesn't get much better there.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 09 2019, 11:24:20 PM
No sometimes in the 60
Did you watch the video?
Dose it look ok you you?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 10 2019, 12:01:43 AM
Sorry Tim...didn't see the link. It's not unloading the tires...but you can hear them break loose as can be seen on the PL file. Humidity might be making the track 'greasy'. We get humidity in the 90 percent range up here...and it's a nitemare to work with. Did you pull any low gear fuel?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 10 2019, 01:25:14 AM
Off to the track this weekend,I’ll try grounding the violet Alky wire from the old 2step switch.
I grabbed a relay today.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 10 2019, 08:49:46 AM
Not an exact science but just turn the alky off then after launch turn it back on to try.
The purple wire usually hooks up to the brake light switch and while the brake lights are on the alky is interrupted.
Maybe e-mail JULIO.
https://www.alkycontrol.com/contact-alkycontrol (https://www.alkycontrol.com/contact-alkycontrol)

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 10 2019, 10:05:39 AM

Absolutely amazes me how people don't read. I mentioned earlier in this thread how you can tune Julios alky kit...and adjust Erics chip.


Here's the alky king himself...mayb e you guys will read what he says: https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/tuning-the-alkycontrol-kit.147348/



Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 10 2019, 10:19:40 AM

Don't know how to adjust Erics chip? Here's Scoob himself showin' ya' how.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P72WVIq7KZM








Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 10 2019, 01:53:10 PM
Yes you did tell me about cutting Alky on the light on day one. I hurt one engine with KR.  I Just move slow. Lots of broken parts won’t make me a racer.
Car is solid back half, baby steps.
Thanks everyone I heard you loud and clear.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 16 2019, 12:58:22 AM
New best two pass 1.7 60 Alky  cut
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 16 2019, 08:14:32 AM
WOW you got that thing flying.  Are you running an alky chip?
 25 mph on the back half is 10 sec power just need to work on the front half and 60 ft and you're there.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on September 16 2019, 08:49:44 AM
Congrats Tim
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 16 2019, 09:25:48 AM
You are in the big leagues now!  Nice pass!!!
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 16 2019, 06:13:52 PM
MPH is indicative of HP...and you're making some. Get low gear dialed in...and you're in the 10's...just like I said.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 16 2019, 06:21:57 PM
Yes TT Alky 6.1 chip
I just couldn’t pull enough fuel at line hooked up the purple wire to cut Alky at line
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 17 2019, 09:41:57 AM
I don't think he has enough air to get there, but, for the turbo he is running and the converter he is running, I think he has done a great job of getting the most from the combo. :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 17 2019, 02:32:04 PM
I will agree that a converter would help. but I think the time slip proves he has enough air to run 10;s
At a track with an air density 500 ft below sea level he would be there now.
''theory'' be damned  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 17 2019, 04:54:10 PM
The MPH also tells me the convertor is coupling well on the big end. Going to a looser convertor it'll usually slip more on the big end...so it's a give and take situation. Tim says he couldn't pull anymore fuel out of low gear...so he'll likely have to send the chip off to Eric to get him to remove some low gear fuel. I haven't seen Tims file from the run...but there's more to be had from getting the low gear fueling to 760-780...and he'll gain more ponies in high gear if the humidity drops to 60 percent like he says it does from time to time. Bracket racing my car it would pick up 2.3 tenths on a 15 percent humidity drop. There's a 10.9x in the car...with more tuning...and less humidity. Stay with it Tim.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 17 2019, 05:41:31 PM
Agreed on the converter

The turbo will move further out of it's efficiency zone with more boost and the gains will be negligible in my opinion. We are already seeing it flatten on prior logs at high rpm.  That's a big stretch for a little turbo.  Not many 49 size turbos have made the stretch.

Personally, I don't think it will pick up much more on the Low gear end, but, even if it does, he needs about 3.5 tenths to get to the tens and I think it is getting about all the air it can reasonably produce to get that tad more it needs.

I think it is running really well and maybe beyond expectations.  Great job, Tim!!
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 17 2019, 05:46:28 PM
. Going to a looser convertor it'll usually slip more on the big end...so it's a give and take

I don' believe that statement but otherwise good info.
You can have both  a good STR and good efficiency in a converter
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 17 2019, 06:40:24 PM
Agreed on the converter

The turbo will move further out of it's efficiency zone with more boost and the gains will be negligible in my opinion. We are already seeing it flatten on prior logs at high rpm.  That's a big stretch for a little turbo.  Not many 49 size turbos have made the stretch.

Personally, I don't think it will pick up much more on the Low gear end, but, even if it does, he needs about 3.5 tenths to get to the tens and I think it is getting about all the air it can reasonably produce to get that tad more it needs.

I think it is running really well and maybe beyond expectations.  Great job, Tim!!




This is the first real world data I have on this little turbo...and I'm impressed. The convertor is still the most important piece of the puzzle...and Tim got it right. Too many vendors pushing their LU convertors as race ready. I've seen too many PL files and slip rates in double digits to make me call bullshit on all of 'em. I cut my teeth with Dusty Bradford on the other board. Fairly he certain he left cuz there were to many know it alls...and he got tired of it. He was always kind enuf to answer all my questions about convertors. I think he still holds a world record for a single turbo configuration. His post about swapping valve springs 3 times a year is what got me into heavy valve springs. He's a convertor guru...and I soaked up everything he ever posted.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 17 2019, 07:46:45 PM
what does Melissa use for a converter/?
Your opinion of why Dusty left is different than mine.
26 mph in the back half on a 3500 stall at 19lbs of boost looks pretty efficient to me.NON Lock. [NOT Tim;s]
Smarter people than me have told Tim a different converter would help but that is up to TIM.


AND I believe the efficiency range on a turbo is a calculated number and can be tricked a certain degree. ie molecules of air vs volume. 

Reducing the back pressure helps also. I think that turbo is rated at 605 hp more than enough to put a 3500 lb regal in the 10's
Lets start something here
 A set of HEADERS will move the efficiency range way up but you Will need a GOOD converter.

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 17 2019, 08:15:48 PM
Russ has run two different convertors in Melissas GN...and I know what both of them did...and I'm staying quiet. Russ is quietly one of the best in the business...and she's a helluva driver. Patrick Rubio has all the facts and figures for that turbo. You can contact him on the other board.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 17 2019, 08:57:45 PM
Steve, I sniffed around and found a comparison between the 44/49 and the 5857. Murphster had been talking to Patrick...and Patrick told him the extra 60 HP the 5857 had over the 44/49 would be felt over 25 PSI. Keep in mind this would be with a good set of heads, IC etc. Tims hit on a combo that flat out works with the heads and convertor he has. Other than tuning it in better air, I wouldn't fuck with it. Daveismissing was lucky enuf to sit in and listen to Paul and Murphster talk tech one time. Wish I was there for that one.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 17 2019, 09:06:00 PM
It's the rpm that he is turning along with the good heads that hurts. One has to pump a lot more air to fill them up.

I think we have suggested he try to increase the boost to see how it works.

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 17 2019, 09:13:06 PM
It's the rpm that he is turning along with the good heads that hurts. One has to pump a lot more air to fill them up.

I think we have suggested he try to increase the boost to see how it works.





I'd prolly bump the boost to 27 PSI and keep the high gear 02's in the 790 range to keep it safe.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 17 2019, 10:57:37 PM
he is running a 6.1 chip so I suspect he has plenty of room to adjust....of course, thinking is not always my long suit.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 18 2019, 04:20:02 AM
here is the log not pretty
it wheel hopped again so the Hellwig bar is out HR bar on the way.
pulled the rear cover all is good but got a new set of clutches and spring had for 5 years to install it spoon right side tire then left in the burnout then hopped!
Running AEM to see wideband
Convertor slip was just around 11 now 9.5
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 09:45:56 AM

Bring up the gauge panel...and the RPM's move from 3750 to 3925 in one frame...and the MPH goes from 0-5 in one frame. It should have moved smoothly from 0-5 MPH. Looks like it wheel hopped right on the line. You were prolly into a better launch if it hadn't have hopped.


Hint. Small turbos love low gear timing. If you're gonna try it...then SMALL increments. Leave the high gear timing on Erics default.


I ran Erics 110-112 race chip with VP 112. Default was 28/26. I'd run 34/26. Difference was like night and day.


Note your RPM's on the line have increased. Wonder how that happened...

Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on September 18 2019, 10:03:24 AM
Brad is right if you can sprinkle in some low gear it should help. Sneak up on it 1* at a time or half * if you can. Watch the 330’ carefully, and its never a bad idea to read the plugs when your leaning on it.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 18 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Tim, as you noted, it was doing a dance off the line. Hopefully, the new bar will help that.  When it's installed, I think I would set position 1 to 11.1.  I think I would leave position 2 at 10.8 because I don't think it will be very sensitive once the chamber is hot and I would always err on the side of caution at this point.  Small turbos like more timing, but, I think I would start with the AF first in this case...I guess it is six of one, half dozen of the other LOL

It may be that position 4 needs to come down a bit to lower the AF at the beginning of each gear.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on September 18 2019, 10:16:51 AM

Note your RPM's on the line have increased. Wonder how that happened...
The converter was discussed at length in one of Tim's threads. The actual stall is quite high. From memory, about 5k @ WFO/full boost. He could probably go 4500 with more boost off the line. I would guess, he has tried higher stall and the short times went to crap.
Have a good day guys.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 18 2019, 11:27:49 AM
The stall on a turbo car is influenced by the A/F, the combustion chamber heat, and the boost.  The prior log Tim provided clearly showed a stall of about 3025.  The current log with the alky spray turned off showed a higher stall up around 3700 or so.  This happened because the combustion chamber was much hotter and made more power at launch with the alky turned off.  If the timing is increased, or the AF leaned down, it will probably increase even more.

The one thing that I learned since the initial comments is that he has a relatively small turbo, with a good exhaust housing, and it is a Ball Bearing model so it will spool very easily if given the chance.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 18 2019, 01:40:49 PM
I swear I let the break off at 3000 (I put the 2step 3200) and if I did go past my 3000 the 2step would stop rise, I'm using that switch to cut Alky. And boost control at 15. Look frames 859 at the log Alky pressure jump from 30 to 150 at 3100 and A/F jumped around too but car doesn’t move for .6.Cant be true log says otherwise.
 
There is .7 timing add. 1.1 at 1 I sure would help too and 4 needs to go to 135-140

 
She has danced more with the Bracket Pro than the Hoosier. The HR bar should be a little stiffer and is more inline with the center of diff  than Hellwig.


I guess I had not notice Dusty leaving the other form tell you mentioned it. They have a way of doing that Lonnie from Extreme Auto was good transmission man that got tired of th BS too.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 01:43:47 PM
Steve...Erics recommends leaving mid boost turned off. You've run/ran 6.1. Is that the best option?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 18 2019, 01:50:09 PM
Steve...Erics recommends leaving mid boost turned off. You've run/ran 6.1. Is that the best option?

Brad, I did not mention mid boost...positi on 4 is base wide open throttle fuel for ALL gears.  As I understand it, it does not affect idle fuel or cruise fuel, but, it pulls fuel from the wot fueling if it's too rich to begin with..then you can use the AF settings in 1 and 2 to get what you want more easily. Just another means to an end :)

But, yes, I agree with leaving it off.  You blow thru it too fast in my opinion and you might just manage to eff it up.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 01:50:35 PM

I could never get DR's to work. I stayed with the 28x9 slicks from Mickey Thompson. I ran the old skool ATR rear bar, Metco billet lowers, stock uppers, 90/10 fronts and single adjustable QA1 rears.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 02:06:06 PM
A quote from Eric. 'The reason is the boost typically moves very rapidly through this area and it makes it difficult to hold the target AF.' He's referring to mid boost.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 02:08:55 PM
Low gear timing is the same for 5.7 and 6.1. Add low gear timing and it hits instantly...in stead of being delayed.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 18 2019, 02:10:46 PM
A quote from Eric. 'The reason is the boost typically moves very rapidly through this area and it makes it difficult to hold the target AF.' He's referring to mid boost.

That's what I found with the SD chips and that's why I said it blows thru too quickly.  I could hardly tell I changed the parameter on the log...
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 08:39:46 PM
'Aggressive mode' on Erics 5.7 and 6.1 alky chips is very basic. With low gear timing on default full low gear timing won't kick in till 35 MPH. Add low gear timing and it'll come in immediately. Basically...it'll lower your 60 foot time. I've mentioned this to other alky guys...but I didn't give an explanation when I mentioned 'aggressive mode'.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 18 2019, 11:03:46 PM
As soon as I read your post on low gear timing I remember the delay part. I have been adding low gear timing for a while now. I went to the radials because I drive to the track and didn’t want to change all four tires. It was ok at the top of the track, but bracket racing every now and then you would be beside a 8 second car and when he go around you at 150+it would be a hand full.


It’s funny how I was happy with the 11.6 ET and was going to work on reaction time. All I did was put a solenoid to my turbosmart for staring line boost control. It was close to my Alky control so I hooked the purple wire to the other ground.
Go to the track lay down a 11.3 pass! And down the rabbit hole I Go.
You guys keep me motivated  :cheers:
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 18 2019, 11:09:53 PM
I forgot to mention on the second pass the mirror went flying to the back seat. Didn’t pop the holder off it pulled glass out the size of the holder about 1/8 in deep,and cracked about 2 in on the drive home.
 What do I look for when Safelight come to change the glass?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 11:17:20 PM
Tim, my best friend Dan who's a glazer and wrenched on my car with me for all these years worked for Speedy Auto Glass. I'll call him tomorrow and get him to post up. The windshields are tough to get up here. He'll have an answer for ya',
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 11:21:54 PM
As soon as I read your post on low gear timing I remember the delay part. I have been adding low gear timing for a while now. I went to the radials because I drive to the track and didn’t want to change all four tires. It was ok at the top of the track, but bracket racing every now and then you would be beside a 8 second car and when he go around you at 150+it would be a hand full.


It’s funny how I was happy with the 11.6 ET and was going to work on reaction time. All I did was put a solenoid to my turbosmart for staring line boost control. It was close to my Alky control so I hooked the purple wire to the other ground.
Go to the track lay down a 11.3 pass! And down the rabbit hole I Go.
You guys keep me motivated  :cheers:



Weak point is the transmission in these cars. Talk to your transmission guy what it can handle. I was fortunate as I had the best 200 trans builder in Canada looking after me.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 18 2019, 11:43:18 PM
It’s a stage II from Lonnie it can handle
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 18 2019, 11:48:45 PM
The CEA 6262 is the baddest street/strip turbo going...and I spooled it with an AC 16930...2800 stall...and it was a JB. That's a 2800 you have...
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 19 2019, 03:17:14 AM
The 6262 is a great turbo. And I considered it, I must have called Pat  at Prevision turbo three times before buying the 5857 over the 6262.
The little turbo has served me well and I think there is more power in it.
Steve has made mention it may be out of air at this point, but I’m just 25 psi.
I’m running a old Action 15 row SLIC that there’s no data on that could be a bottleneck. I have no idea how hard the compressor is pushing to get 25 psi. It could be 35 at the wheel for all I know.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 19 2019, 09:20:39 AM
The way Pat was talking with Murphster it's good past 25. Like you said...the SLIC you have is a question mark.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 19 2019, 09:35:31 AM
To spool or not to spool that is the? Define ''spool''


Would someone do an experiment for me? Or maybe someone has the logs= Is the 'calculated'[size=78%]  slip% the same with bias ply slicks and drag radials.[/size]


TIM You just blew the minds of all the theorists. :icon_eyes: :) [/size][size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 19 2019, 09:44:00 AM
To spool or not to spool that is the? Define ''spool''


Would someone do an experiment for me? Or maybe someone has the logs= Is the 'calculated'[size=78%]  slip% the same with bias ply slicks and drag radials.[/size]


TIM You just blew the minds of all the theorists. :icon_eyes: :)



Steve already explained what it takes to spool a turbo.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 19 2019, 09:49:03 AM
The 6262 is a great turbo. And I considered it, I must have called Pat  at Prevision turbo three times before buying the 5857 over the 6262.
The little turbo has served me well and I think there is more power in it.
Steve has made mention it may be out of air at this point, but I’m just 25 psi.
I’m running a old Action 15 row SLIC that there’s no data on that could be a bottleneck. I have no idea how hard the compressor is pushing to get 25 psi. It could be 35 at the wheel for all I know.

25# may be out of it's efficiency range at 6000 rpm and with those heads.  Then, there is that about the difference between the boost at the turbo outlet and the boost at the IC outlet.  In reality you might be running 28 or so.  I don't know what the drop across the core is on that unit.

With regard to the slic vs fmic choice, you may have noticed that a lot of the faster guys are going back to the slic style-particularly with alky spraying or E85.  I suspect we will see some 8's run shortly if it has not already occurred on slic's.  The GN1 is pretty popular as it appears to perform as well as the much more expensive PTE.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: 278CIKILLER on September 19 2019, 09:54:13 AM
Tim if there's any crack in the W/S, it will have to be replace, Th e number on these W/S are DW 1016 Shaded. Safelite is a good company. there own by Speedy Glass.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 19 2019, 10:03:06 AM
Rob Ortoski runs 8's with a SLIC. I'm unsure of what core it is. I swapped from a SLIC to a FM...but it was to keep the car consistent for bracket racing. I wasn't trying to pick up ET. If I ever buy another TR I'll slap a Precision SLIC in it.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 19 2019, 10:06:35 AM
For some reason, I thought he was running the GN1, but I probably disremember the conversation. 
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 19 2019, 10:10:58 AM
For some reason, I thought he was running the GN1, but I probably disremember the conversation. 



If memory serves, I THINK Jason said he's friends with RA...and it might be two cores welded together. Might be cores RA has. You might know what he ran...ya' been around longer than me.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 19 2019, 10:23:17 AM
He did that years ago for sure.  If I recall correctly, two cores welded together went into the 8's many years ago but I think it was on a Stage engine.  Think Mark Jackson?

Most people don't understand that IC's are heat sinks and that air cooling during a single pass is pretty much infinitesimal.  It benefits the most in cooling down the core between races and in that context, it does not matter if it is painted black, silver, or candy apple red.

If one is hot lapping, then one may get more cooling on the return road with a front mount in preparation for another immediate run...
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 19 2019, 10:32:07 AM
To prove a point about heat soaking in back to back runs with SLICs, I got Dan Keller to race me at an Armdrop event a couple years back. We raced and I got him by a couple cars. Glen the owner of Armdrop waved us right through to the front immediately. I put a whole bunch of lengths on Dan on the second run. I was using the Megacooler FM from TR Customs. Got it shipped to my door from a guy from Calgary for 600 bucks Canadian brand new.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 19 2019, 10:34:51 AM
Dan needed a co2 or nos spray bar on that cooler LOL

Good for at least four passes before cracking the welds!
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 19 2019, 10:36:24 AM
To spool or not to spool that is the? Define ''spool''


Would someone do an experiment for me? Or maybe someone has the logs= Is the 'calculated'[size=78%]  slip% the same with bias ply slicks and drag radials.[/size]


TIM You just blew the minds of all the theorists. :icon_eyes: :)



Steve already explained what it takes to spool a turbo.




But give me a definitive answer to ''spool''.


Way back when we were still doing SPARTA in oct; my car had stock motor with 009's , with TE62 turbo .275-50 bfg's and a 2800 Pats. That day I went 2 11.90s and 11-70 at 111 and 113 mph. with more timing on 94.,Jay carter chips if that matters, however to get a 158 -60 it took 11 seconds to ''spool the turbo. OH stock intercooler with the screen still in and stock neck.
I don't even want to know what the fluid temp was. I  was told 100  deg per sec.
To me spool is a subjective term.


Geez that sounds like somebody else LOL
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 19 2019, 10:36:44 AM
Dan needed a co2 or nos spray bar on that cooler LOL

Good for at least four passes before cracking the welds!




It was actually a good SLIC. 1 Rare T would know what it was...as it was his friends car that Dan Keller bought.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: wmsonta on September 19 2019, 10:44:03 AM
Tim, i am curious how many rpm can you get at the line? 2 step off. Yes, I understand it is not beneficial.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 19 2019, 10:46:24 AM
Pretty sure that is a variable depending upon how well and long the brakes hold
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 19 2019, 03:41:33 PM
Tim if there's any crack in the W/S, it will have to be replace, Th e number on these W/S are DW 1016 Shaded. Safelite is a good company. there own by Speedy Glass.
Thanks for taking time
I’ll be there when it’s done, looks like a lot of trim to remove without breaking something
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: 1 RARE T on September 19 2019, 07:20:19 PM
Dan needed a co2 or nos spray bar on that cooler LOL

Good for at least four passes before cracking the welds!




It was actually a good SLIC. 1 Rare T would know what it was...as it was his friends car that Dan Keller bought.


Precision. 👊
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 19 2019, 08:10:29 PM
I wonder if it's time to check for chassis flex. Is this a hardtop or t- top,
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 19 2019, 11:23:24 PM
Hard top all new bushings,even the GNX over the top with a GNX seat brace

I can hold 3200 easy been 3700 a time or to I’ll check my log book tonight
3100 @#15 is solid not trying to push through.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 20 2019, 06:41:11 AM
3100 at 15 lbs?
Even Brad will have to admit that is tight.
It seems to be working for you though.Congrat s.


My stock converter would go 2900 at 15 lbs just for reference.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 20 2019, 07:57:20 AM
Ron, stall and flash are two different things altogether. My AC 16930 would start building boost at 2650...but I'd flash it to 3950 on a 1.5x launch.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: reality on September 20 2019, 09:11:33 AM
That is still 850 rpm difference. that's a lot IMO.
You are ''flashing'' to 3950 and Tim is flashing 3100. If Tim were to flash to 3950 and hook what would he run?
And on a turbo Regal the standard has always been at 0 boost.


We need a converter expert to explain the terms actual .brake and foot stall. It seems everybody means something different when talking about ''stall''
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 20 2019, 10:38:42 AM
I suggest you call a convertor guru and have him explain it to you. The data on the PL file tells you what it's doing. Reply 148 I explained what it did on the last run...and on reply 152 Steve explains how to loosen a convertor up. Again, my convertor was incredibly tight...but with low gear tuning I could get it to flash over 4 grand...but... it would blow the slicks off it. It was a fine line.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Tim Hensley on September 20 2019, 03:50:15 PM
Scoobum I notice you drop about 500 rpm to 4600 on your shifts I drop about 1000 to 4700. Dose this mean your converter is tighter than mine?
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: nocooler on September 20 2019, 05:39:09 PM
The drop at gear is called shift extension. 
1000 would be tighter and 500 looser 
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 20 2019, 05:58:54 PM
and is also affected by the power being made at the shift point.  More power will drop less.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Scoobum on September 20 2019, 06:14:52 PM
I saw a post years ago from Dusty. Basically your convertor is coupling better than the AC I ran in regards to RPM drop. I saw another post by him saying a convertor would couple better if the shift points were higher...hence why mine shifted higher than stock with the counter weights lightened up. I'm assuming with the MPH I ran the AC convertor I had kept it right in its RPM range for maximum HP. If I read things correctly I woulda had to have shifted mine at somewhere around 6500 to get a higher RPM drop. The experts would tell you my convertor was to loose. In theory if it was to loose...then when I applied more torque it should have slipped more...but MPH would increase. Go figure.
Title: Re: 60 ft blues
Post by: Steve Wood on September 20 2019, 07:54:10 PM
Dusty was the one that introduced the concept of using 0 on the boost gauge as a stall comparison point rather than the stall rpm against the foot brake before the car tried to overcome the brakes.  Before, that was the common way to compare stall (boost against the brakes).

Converter technology in the affordable range has certainly advanced and the behavior of the converter under load has changed as a consequence.

My 9/11 which was supposedly a 3400 stall would go to 4000 without a struggle and it never seemed to catch up at high rpm as it had a very high slippage rate at 6000 rpm.  The car felt "slushy" in normal driving with slow response to the gas pedal.

My first vigilante was too tight with the 66 turbo and would only build maybe 6 lbs or so against the brakes and did not want to do much better against the tranny brake.  As a result it was not very good off the line but was great from a roll.  It was also tight and contrary when the engine was cold.

Last summer I installed another vigilante and it's great when cold, hardly feel it load the engine and the vacuum shows it.  It easily goes to about 3200 against the brake and hesitates for the boost to come up and when it does, it then flashes on up to around 3900 or so.  Best of all, it drives like a stock converter which helps the gas mileage.  It changed the character of the car completely.

Bought another mopar converter from Dusty the other day.

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