IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: YGspider on August 06 2013, 08:49:34 PM
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Ok so my question to you engine tech guys is what is my best options to make a reliable strong block with good internals. Basically this fall the motor is coming out and I want to go roller cam but I'm going to leave the hydraulic lifters. My goals for this motor are to make use of a TE44 turbo full potential lets say to a 600plus HP capability and beyond in terms of reliabilities I want a good motor. What are some things I will need I'm very new to engine builds.
Forged pistons?
Studded block?
New crank?
All new bearings all around.
Would there be a lot of benefit in going with roller lifters?
Any links to parts and parts numbers as well as little advice from your own finds would be welcome.
:powersix: :cheers:
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A TE-44 won't make 600 HP by itself. You'd need another power adder like nitrous to get there. Here's some links that should give you some idea of what it's capable of.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/turboguide/turboguide.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/turboguide/turboguide.html)
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/turboguide/turbos.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/turboguide/turbos.html)
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboupdate.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboupdate.html)
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In terms of the 600 HP I just want a overly done motor for the horses I want to kick out. So lets say my car makes 500 HP I don't want the block to be maxed out if its only able to take a 500 HP beating? If that makes sense? Like I said I'm pretty new when it comes to engine builds but I basically want a very reliable street motor that wont need a tear down every season...
I think I'm going to go with these items on the rebuild
Roller Cam , High volume oil pump, deep sump oil pan? what else would be needed?
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Note that if you use a roller cam you have to use roller lifters and proper associated springs, push rods etc. I don't see any need for a hv oil pump, deep oil pan, girdle, etc. for a te 44 set up
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Billet mains or girdle, forged crank and rods, good pistons with a 9:1 compression ratio, and anything bigger than a stock cam. What you don't quite understand is the turbo is what will get you to the magic number you want as long as you build the short block to hold up. Saying you want a 600 HP engine is one thing and you can get there with a stock block engine, if you tune it right and have the right turbo ect.
What I think you want is a solid performing engine that will hold up to a lot of abuse and allow you to update it later with a larger turbo, right?
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I'm looking for a motor that has the means to last me a few good years of abuse. I may upgrade the TE44 and it would be nice to have a block that can handle a bigger power source. I do understand my turbo is basically good to 450 HP or something like that. But the point I'm trying to make is wouldn't it be better to go with better then stock parts for longevity of the block?
For my combo basically I'm going to be running this. TE44 , AlkyControl, RJC boost controller , 2800 10" stall , 42.5lb injectors, 3 inch downpipe , PTE stock stretch intercooler,
Roller cam kit from Revolution X Roller Cam Kit Comp Lifters new bearings and stud the block ? would that be a pretty decent combo?
I cant think of anything else I'm missing.
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i agree on your approach but from lots of reading on these buick boards most like to go just enough then max that out and upgrade again. i feel that backwards thinking as its usually more expensive to buy parts twice but then again i don't know shit.
I would Go for your over build and not worry about making the power later. thats what i will be doing this winter.
I'm looking for a motor that has the means to last me a few good years of abuse. I may upgrade the TE44 and it would be nice to have a block that can handle a bigger power source. I do understand my turbo is basically good to 450 HP or something like that. But the point I'm trying to make is wouldn't it be better to go with better then stock parts for longevity of the block?
For my combo basically I'm going to be running this. TE44 , AlkyControl, RJC boost controller , 2800 10" stall , 42.5lb injectors, 3 inch downpipe , PTE stock stretch intercooler,
Roller cam kit from Revolution X Roller Cam Kit Comp Lifters new bearings and stud the block ? would that be a pretty decent combo?
I cant think of anything else I'm missing.
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If your over building I would change those 42lbs to 60lbs injectors..
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If your over building I would change those 42lbs to 60lbs injectors..
Yea I've thought about that for quite a while now. I just might do that. my car already has the hotwire kit as well but I'm not sure how old it is and I feel like I should just buy a whole new kit with a high end in tank fuel pump.
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I'll bet Mac will give you a good price on this one I sold a few years ago.
Keep yours for a spare & use this one that will take a lickin & keep on Tickin! :chin:
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-racers-toronto-surrounding-areas/107914-things-i-still-have-sale-engine-turbo-ecu-etc.html (http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-racers-toronto-surrounding-areas/107914-things-i-still-have-sale-engine-turbo-ecu-etc.html)
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damn sure cannot build one for anywhere close to that
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One thing to think about is building it like you want and using the TE-44 ect. If you think at a later date you're going to go with a bigger turbo then 60 lb injectors are a good idea, but when you upgrade to a larger turbo you'll need to upgrade the tranny, converter, and at least the chip.
Build the engine to hold up to low 10's and the injectors and fuel system at the same time, then put all the stuff you've got now. Get a full billet tranny built at the same time so you know it will hold up if you go bigger. The parts and labor isn't going to get less expensive later and if all you've got to do for an upgrade is to change a few things you're better off in the end. :cheers:
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The whole goal with my plans is to basically refinish the whole car. after the engine is out I'm going to pull the interior as well and paint the floor with POR 15, all new sound deadening as well a new steering wheel. After that the car is getting a complete body job and repaint so I'm guessing the car will be down for at least 2 seasons so I have time to gather money and build parts up the way I want. Should I redo the car in the original color? Burgundy?
If I go with that engine you talk of Dave I would need at least a 3200 10" convertor for that cam? And to be honest noob question is that a roller cam? And are stock heads good for the 10's or would GN1's be needed? what's the big deal with them.
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You can run posted stock iron heads into the 9's but it will be pushing things some.
Since you're planning on doing the body and interior don't do anything to the engine until you get that done. The reason I say that is because body work will take longer and having an engine sitting around not only takes up room but also can rust. Do the body/chassis work and then do the engine/tranny you can worry about the interior once everything else id sone.
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You can run posted stock iron heads into the 9's but it will be pushing things some.
Since you're planning on doing the body and interior don't do anything to the engine until you get that done. The reason I say that is because body work will take longer and having an engine sitting around not only takes up room but also can rust. Do the body/chassis work and then do the engine/tranny you can worry about the interior once everything else id sone.
Good advise about the body work, don't think I'll be seeing the 9's so I guess my iron heads will fair well.
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Anything quicker than 11.50 you need a cage as well. Build it for tens & beat on it every weekend in the low 11's & slow down once your warned by the track. They will allow 11.20's most times but depends where you race.
I know you are a new owner & excited but after you drop $25K+ complete on a caged, new interior, new paint with the engine, trans, suspension etc. etc. you better be planning on keeping it a Long Time! :cheers:
Man I wish I had only dropped $25K into mine since 89. Build it once & build it the right way so unlike me you don't end up trying out a new combo every 5 years plus all the new toys & realize one day you have dropped near $50K+ over the years!! :O
I don't regret it it since I've had Many Great Years with my car but stuff adds up fast & selling it for 40%-50% re-sale value is something to seriously consider. Maybe I'll sell you mine with a truck full of spare parts for $25K & you have an instant go fast toy that just needs a cage & some tuning! :chin: :player:
Nah probably not :icon_fU:
But you see how this Black Crack addiction will suck a decent amount of $$$ out of anyone's bank account when you start a project of what you are considering! :powersix:
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On the other respect of David, I do as much on my car as I'm able and buy parts through swapping or just getting lucky some times. My rear quarters had the R-83 ventilated rear on it and I welded in new metal to fix it. When I had the rear out to change over to disc brakes I found out that I had a rotten frame so I traded a case of VR1 20w50 for a frame to use. It's now very modified and I made my own motor mounts to lower the engine and back it up 1".
As David said, do it right the first time and you'll be happy and not have to do much to change it when your done. :D
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I think the best mod I've came up with yet is when I told a guy I was gonna fill hundreds of ziplock bags with helium and shove them inside my frame rails to make the car lighter :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
sorry, back on subject :D
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Anything quicker than 11.50 you need a cage as well. Build it for tens & beat on it every weekend in the low 11's & slow down once your warned by the track. They will allow 11.20's most times but depends where you race.
I know you are a new owner & excited but after you drop $25K+ complete on a caged, new interior, new paint with the engine, trans, suspension etc. etc. you better be planning on keeping it a Long Time! :cheers:
Man I wish I had only dropped $25K into mine since 89. Build it once & build it the right way so unlike me you don't end up trying out a new combo every 5 years plus all the new toys & realize one day you have dropped near $50K+ over the years!! :O
My budget for the this rebuild I want to keep in the 10k range but I can see it quickly heading into the 15k range. I don't really want to go 10 seconds or anything like that my mission is more about just having a car that can be fun for 10 plus years with lets say about 500 HP and last the 10 years before the motor needs to get rebuilt. The engine in my car has about 20 000 km's on the rebuild and is making the stupid noise I cant figure out valve train or cracked headers. only time will tell this winter when I pull the motor. If the engine is still good and its a exhaust leak. you better bet your ass its going back in haha.. but if she's fried all hell is going to break loose over the next 2 years. Keep in mind i'm only 20 years old so this is quite a feat for me to do a project like this. a lot of people look at me like I'm crazy.... the whole idea is to finish my dream before I get a family that will take full priority and money wont be so free to waste on the black crack :icon_madu: :rock:
I'm thinking a Lexus pearl white with the blackout bezel treatment as well as refinished Turbo T wheels that I'm considering getting chromed or sand blasted polished and re clear coated. A full engine bay overhaul and a few odds and ends all new T Top seals door sweeps and a various trim.. basically I want to get into my car and have a time machine to a year before .... hell I wasn't even born haha :rock:
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And I should also mention that you didn't have all the combos set in stone in 1989 so things where still being learnt. you had to play the cards given to you. I'm sure by the time im a old man this car will have eaten a large sum of cash from my bank. But I don't care the passion that has grown on me towards these cars is so unreal. I've realized I don't really care about any other car.. like this is my dream Ferrari :powersix: :powersix: :powersix: :powersix: :cheers:
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I'm sure you will have many years of enjoyment with your car! With a modern chip from Eric & some self control with the boost & a little patience with tuning there is no reason that a Buick V-6 can't run down 1/2 the guys at the track & stay healthy for years doing it. :rock: :cheers:
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I think the best mod I've came up with yet is when I told a guy I was gonna fill hundreds of ziplock bags with helium and shove them inside my frame rails to make the car lighter :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
sorry, back on subject :D
I still find Amazing Deals on this site!! The Butt Dyno is Awesome!!! :rofl:
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index)
Since this thread is about Freshen the Motor (back on track) I think you should check this stuff out!
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=25 (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=25)
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Haha the passenger noise reducer perfect for someone who loves to talk to much during a long drive... http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=10 (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=10)
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Finally I think I figured out my problem with my motor as it sits.. I think a lifter is starting to fail and wont pump enough oil at idle. When driving the engine doesn't really make the noise and is rock solid. I think my best option and maybe the cheapest way is to just replace the cam and lifters, push rod ext... And use the left over money for paint. Maybe this build wont be as expensive as I thought.
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If it's for sure a lifter noise, and the cam is going flat, I'd not continue to drive it.
The trash that's created will find a home in the brgs....Then, you will be spending that money.......an d some.
Cut the oil filter open, and see if the cam lobe is in there. :O
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and, if a lobe is failing, it may be a case of the front cam bearing wearing which causes less oil to be pumped to the top end. This happens often with hv oil pumps and/or age. No matter what, if a lobe or lifter is coming apart, the engine needs to come out to be thoroughly cleaned out or it will eat something else out when you start driving it again. And, you should not use the stock oil cooler again. Up there, just eliminate it from the equation would be my suggestion. Remove the cooler adapter from the pump when you put the front cover back together.
You can run high tens on a stock short block.
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Pull the valve cover off the suspect side & let it idle while watching all the pushrods. You could mark them & watch to see if one isn't acting like the others. May give you a better idea of what's going on or an area that needs further inspection?
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Diagnose it correctly before chasing perceived issues.
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Diagnose it correctly before chasing perceived issues.
Please read and UNDERSTAND the above post.
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Damn 10 to 15k you coulda bought a car already done by the time you factor in the purchase price of the car too.
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Like I said: you should buy my car.
Oh, and seriously dude I have been on the same 130K+km engine (with the same stock head gaskets) for over 10 years and haven't considered a rebuild yet. So why are you?
What I am saying is don't get wrapped up in all the hype of Turbo$$$Buick.com or what you read in magazines. If you want a nice car do it little by little, don't just lay it up for the sake of taking on a build of a lifetime.
Leave that stuff for norbs.
I am on vacation from 19 Aug to 2 Sep, my offer to assist stands - just get the car here in good working order.
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I'll have to see what my work schedule looks like. I've been driving the car for a month now with that little idle noise so... and the oil doesn't seem to have any metal in it. Tomorrow I'm going to cut off the oil filter again and see what it looks like. I ordered a new PCV valve from NOS4 I'm thinking a clogged old one was clogged leading to higher BLM's.. Also another very very big possibility is a exhaust leak somewhere but I cant see it and it doesn't really have the exhaust leak noise. But everyone who has heard the noise doesn't think its a exhaust leak. I bet your car would of been awesome Motorhead but this car was a 5 minute find away from my house and its a pretty mint car. It had all the good mods but I'm just hoping the engine builders where competent in there work. :icon_eyes:
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Just a update on my issues. I changed the oil filter to a Napa Gold long neck filter and no change. I also looked at the oil from the old filter and I can see some little gold flakes ? what is the gold flakes from I searched a few other turbo Buick forms and no one seems to know. I also am chasing down a KR problem that I cant seem to fix as well as BLM's at 138.
Edit: the gold looking flakes might just be dust from the pan sitting around. God dammit this car is gunna make me and my dad kill each other he has given up and thinks the noise is normal and says to drop the timing for the KR but I'm not stupid that's not the problem the fucking gar is going TAPTAPTTTPTPTP ATA AHHHHHHHH I cant sleep that noise haunts me. The quest goes onward to figure out the issue :icon_eyes:
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Sorry to say gold flakes means bearings.
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Yep...it's overhaul time
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So would that mean my Turbo is fried now as well :icon_neutral:
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maybe...maybe not...it will be if you keep driving it. As long as the there is virtually no discernible in and out play on the compressor shaft and you cannot move it enuf sideways to allow the wheel to touch the sides, it is probably still okay at the moment but i would sure clean out the oil delivery line when I went back together with it
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So I guess my next question is if I got to a full roller motor I don't need to worry about zinc in the oil anymore? and are full roller motors loud ticking wise? I read a lot of forums about people saying how there engine ticks.
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Some roller engines tick more than others and it seems that some of the Comp Cams roller lifters make a bunch of noise and if you believe everything you read on the internet the Morrel roller lifters are quieter if not quiet.
David, JustaSix, has a roller cam in his engine and it is quiet.... at least to my ears. Now I have seen and HEARD guys at the track whose roller lifters were very noticeable and their cars still seemed to run Very well.
When I briefly heard your car at the Sunday morning coffee run I didn't think I was hearing any major issues with your car. If you want, go to a heavy truck shop and see if they have kits that will let you send your oil off to be analyzed. I have many reports from the late 80's from GN #1 and they give a fair amount of info. You just have to get a CLEAN sample of oil to them. That means you fill up the sample jar with oil that is currently draining out of the oil pan, not from a catch can that has crap built up in the bottom from many different vehicles.
P.S. - A roller motor won't be cheap since a cam kit is almost $900 US and then the shipping on top of that will probably put you to about a $1000 Canadian once you convert the money and pay some duties. Also if you are hell bent on spending money I know a guy West of Toronto a bit that was selling a complete engine with roller cam, good pistons, main caps, etc. I am not sure if this was a fully assembled engine or not but I can get some info for you if needed.
Good luck,
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Be a lot cheaper to just buy good oil that already has zinc in it.
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Some roller engines tick more than others and it seems that some of the Comp Cams roller lifters make a bunch of noise and if you believe everything you read on the internet the Morrel roller lifters are quieter if not quiet.
David, JustaSix, has a roller cam in his engine and it is quiet.... at least to my ears. Now I have seen and HEARD guys at the track whose roller lifters were very noticeable and their cars still seemed to run Very well.
When I briefly heard your car at the Sunday morning coffee run I didn't think I was hearing any major issues with your car. If you want, go to a heavy truck shop and see if they have kits that will let you send your oil off to be analyzed. I have many reports from the late 80's from GN #1 and they give a fair amount of info. You just have to get a CLEAN sample of oil to them. That means you fill up the sample jar with oil that is currently draining out of the oil pan, not from a catch can that has crap built up in the bottom from many different vehicles.
P.S. - A roller motor won't be cheap since a cam kit is almost $900 US and then the shipping on top of that will probably put you to about a $1000 Canadian once you convert the money and pay some duties. Also if you are hell bent on spending money I know a guy West of Toronto a bit that was selling a complete engine with roller cam, good pistons, main caps, etc. I am not sure if this was a fully assembled engine or not but I can get some info for you if needed.
Good luck,
That's my main issue right now is that I cant tell if the sparkles are dust from the bottom of the pan or other things that fell in the shop from the pan sitting around for a few hours. When I cut open the filter to be honest the oil looked pretty good to my eyes.
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If you took off the pan and it sat around for a hour or two, What could have fallen into it? Was any body working with gold flakes around?If the gold flakes were at the bottom of the pan mix in with the oil that's copper and that's bearings period.
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should not have been difficult to determine if they were metal flakes and even easier to know if any one was grinding or cutting next to the pan
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It wasn't the oil pan its self just a black oil drain bucket that I use for oil changes. I cleaned it out pretty good before I used it. But I think dust from the vacuum that floats in my garage floated down into the oil pan. because my car always has a coat of dust on it that I clean off the car every day. it was very very fine sand like material in the bucket so its hard to say.
I'm going to drop the oil pan this weekend and see what I find.. If she's hurting I will be pulling it all apart and making the car brand new again. A part of me wants this project to happen but the other part says ....that's a lot of money... hahah ohh well I love the car to much. :rock:
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Did you ever end up cutting the oil filter open? Or were you just looking at the oil in the drain bucket?
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Did you ever end up cutting the oil filter open? Or were you just looking at the oil in the drain bucket?
I cut it open and it didn't seem to have anything wrong with the filter its self ... very strange next step is drop the oil pan tomorrow or this weekend.
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Some roller engines tick more than others and it seems that some of the Comp Cams roller lifters make a bunch of noise and if you believe everything you read on the internet the Morrel roller lifters are quieter if not quiet.
If you want, go to a heavy truck shop and see if they have kits that will let you send your oil off to be analyzed. I have many reports from the late 80's from GN #1 and they give a fair amount of info. You just have to get a CLEAN sample of oil to them. That means you fill up the sample jar with oil that is currently draining out of the oil pan, not from a catch can that has crap built up in the bottom from many different vehicles.
Blackstone Labs USA will send you a container for a sample to mail them
I have one here if you want to use it?