IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => Transmissions => Topic started by: bryes on March 29 2015, 05:54:24 PM
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Background:
First a little background information to get everyone up to speed. In my Newbie thread I was able to successfully rebuild the engine that was bad in the GN I bought. Not too long after I got the car going (with a lot of help from Steve and the other guys on this site), I lost my job in Georgia and had to move back to Ohio.
In late October of 2014, I successfully towed the car 800 miles to Ohio, the weather was nice and it was dry the entire way. That is until a sudden popup deluge drenched me and the car while I unloaded it off the uhaul trailer. Well the next morning the car was still wet, so I decided the best way to dry it was to take it for one last ride before tucking it in for a long (really long!) Ohio winter.
About a quarter mile from my house is a nice stop sign, just asking for a wot blast. This was probably the first time I had run the car in cooler air, and with 17 psi of boost, the little six felt strong as it shifted from 1st to second. Sometimes the tires would break loose a little, but this time they stuck. The car surged forward, but faltered instantaneouslyy with an audible bang. I remember the odd helpless feeling of a car decelerating while I was still flooring the gas! After lifting off the throttle, the car coasted to a stop.
Symptoms:
So currently the symptom of my transmission, as had been mentioned in the previous thread, is that it has 6 neutrals and a park. Also I should mention that a gear whirring or whine sound are noticeable when idling or revving the engine. And as it turns out, the trans leaked a substantial amount of fluid on the ground over the winter. I did notice it leaking a little back in Georgia, which was one reason I decided to not drive it back (Lucky... maybe).
Pulling the trans:
I was able to pull out the trans in a few hours. The hardest part for me was loosening the top transmission line, that thing is a pain even with the trans tilted down after being dismounted. But overall not too bad of a job. The tag is in the first picture.
Disassembling the trans:
The problem was not obvious at first. I really thought it that the pump might have went bad because of the noise (coming from the front of the trans) and the fact that it was leaking fluid. I pulled the pump out and took it apart, and it looked fine to me. So I continued to dissect the transmission, taking enough pictures so I (think / hope) can get the thing back together. I’ve only taken one other auto trans apart and have never put one back together, so I don’t know what the parts are called. But I pulled the first few assemblies out and didn’t see anything obvious. Then I had to pull out the valve body to remove a couple more… um doohickeys. I got the trans down to the point that I was relatively sure that everything else looked good to me (See middle two pictures below), so I left the back end together.
The problem:
Since all the stuff in the case seemed to be OK, at least to the untrained eye, I decided to take another look at the front end where the noise seemed to be coming from. Since I had already checked out the pump the only thing I hadn’t inspected thoroughly was the torque converter. I looked down in it and everything seemed OK. It seemed to engage with the pump properly, but then I put the input shaft into the converter and turned it… something immediately seemed off. It didn’t seem to be turning anything, I expected there to be some more mass there. Also when I turned the shaft it made some noise, a similar albeit much quieter facsimile of what I heard when still in the car. Still I couldn’t see anything by visual inspection, but I was convinced the converter was bad.
I decided to take the plunge and cut the converter apart to see what was going on internally. I didn’t have much to lose because, as was suspected, it was the wrong converter (stamped 5 all around the perimeter with no “D”) and made my car slug slow off the line. As you can see in the picture below, once it was opened I could see the problem. As can be seen in the final picture below, the teeth that engage in the input shaft were completely stripped out.
Decisions decisions:
Now is where I need some help. I believe I have hunted down a D5 locally that will fix my problem. I’m going to see it on Thursday and will buy it for 50 if nothing is obviously wrong. So my only dilemma is what I should do with the trans. One option is to put the thing back together and run it, since my car is mostly stock and I don’t have really big plans to modify it, this is how I am leaning right now. But I am open to fixing some weak links, upgrading etc. My financial situation is not good right now but is hopefully improving soon, so that will enter in.
Let me know what you think , all advice is welcome!
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Got a pic of the stator support on the pump bet it's finished the splines on the stocker don't last long with horse power.
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I have a picture but no way to upload it now. I've seen pictures of bad stator support shafts and mine Looks OK to me. My car is basically stock. I just wonder if the splines on a d5 converter are made out of a harder material than what that converter was. Who knows what that converter was out of but it stalled at like 900 rpm .
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That converter shop that cut that converter couldn't restall and freshen the converter you have?
As cheap as the stator support, a pair of hard rings, a stiffer slide spring, drilling out the pump drainback, maybe some vb plate mods and spring swapping in the vb. If you have access to a lathe or grinder cut the od piston .080 and pit in an additional od clutch plate between the steel that don't have one in between. A paper and rubber kit and maybe some new clutches(i like the red raybestos stage 1 that I put in the direct) tans in the rest.I inspected the steels and didn't find them to have any black or blue spots so I hit them with some Emory cloth and made a cross hatch pattern on them and the drum. Maybe a carbon band and a billet pin.
You see how this can get out of hand.
Let me know if you want more suggestions.
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I'm not sure that I want the hack that cut that thing anywhere close to my transmission!
GOOD NEWS!
Before I eluded to the fact that my financial situation may be improving. Well I had an interview yesterday and I've received word that I will be getting the position. Seeing that I FINALLY (since sept 18th) have some sort of cash flow, the options for the transmission have opened up. As I see it now, since my finances should be better, there are two plans that are up for discussion.
Plan A:
Spend whatever it takes (1k est.) to completely rebuild my current trans using the Texas T approach as outlined in has Previous post.
Pros: No wasted effort. Original trans is in the car.
Cons: Car is down for extended period of time.
Plan B:
Put the build on hold and reassemble the trans as is with a D5. Find a core 200-R4 to do the build to.
Pros: Car is not down for extended time. Can really take my time. Good excuse to go to swap meets.
Cons: Overall more work, wasted effort. Original trans will be out of car once complete. 2 trannys and more junk lying around.
I'm really leaning toward Plan B now because I'd really like to have the car for the spring and summer and once I start this new position, I won't have much time to work on it. Additionally, since my car is almost stock, my thought is that I'd be OK for a long time.
Could I be overestimating the scope of rebuilding the trans?? Don't forget that it took me a couple of years to do the motor!
Let me know what you guys think. Also maybe I could do a couple of quickies (Stator shaft?? Fwd drum??) with plan B....ideally I'd like to get it done before Monday.
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While I have the original case( no internals), I went B because we were running a 700r4.
You already have it out and apart. Id buy a few parts and a rubber n paper kit and put it back together and in.
Mine took a while because I wasnt sure on a direction and what parts I wanted to use and the main reason I'm on a strict budget and had to save up to place he orders for parts.. Not that I'm any kind of guru, I do know what I bought and why I bought it.
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Thanks, think I'll start down the plan b route as you suggest.
Today I talked with Vince Janis who is the local guru and explained my situation. He seemed like a really home guy and took a lot of time with me and his advice was very similar . He recommended that I replace the stator shaft, check the friction clearances and accumulator spring and run it if all is well. He has all the parts in stock so that should make for a quick fix!
!!
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You might want him to build the pump the stator surport typically needs the pump to be squared on a lathe and he can set you up wit a larger boost valve in the pump.
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As it turns out my stator shaft was completely shot. The splines were completely stripped and ground down smooth enough that I didn't recognize the pem. In retrospect it was completely obvious, Janis saw it from about twenty feet away when I started to ask if I really had to replace it!
So far I'm into this thing for about 150. The seals were 20,converter 50,hardened shaft 60and now I just ordered fourth clutch thrust bearing for 30. Seems like a rip but mine had a small crack and I guess that supplies of those are tight. !
Frictions were all good but I did have to replace the pump bushing.
As far as the hardened shaft goes, can you better explain what might need remachined?? I have baby lathe that I could check it with maybe if I knew what to check.
I am waiting on parts now so I have some time to contemplate what else to do.
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Below is a picture of my stator shaft compared to the new hardened one. Seems so obvious now :O
The second picture is the bearing that was in the pump. It was fairly torn up.
Last is the other half of the converter.
I'm not sure that you'll be able to see but there there are no "D" stamped , just a 5. But the five is offset as if the "D" Stamper was malfunctioning on the day it was made. Wonder if it wasn't a D5 after all??? My replacement D5 has the "D" stamped much lighter , you really have to look or you'll miss it.
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I have never installed a stator support on a pump.
My understanding is that you have to ensure it is square to the pump. This means taking the pump apart and setting it up on the lathe by the stator support spinning the the pump half to see of it's square if not machine the face where the 2 haves meet to square it.
Personally I purchased a built pump to install in my rebuild, I would talk to Janis to confirm the procedure and how much for a pump already set up with the correct boost valves and the drain relived properly.
The pump is the heart of the transmission.
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How's the sun gear?
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I bet v Janis laughed at you when you ask if you really needed to replace he stator support. When I did mine the new piece I bought required me to press that alignment pin out of the old and into the new. I read of drilling put the hole in the pin for better lube of the "mickey mouse" washer. O didn't do it but it is something to consider I guess.
I pressed the new stator support in and red locktited the pump bushing. I also staked it. It seems the newer pumps have a raised area to prevent the bushing from "walking" but I am using an 84 so mine didn't and I didn't want the bushing to move. I was also advised to get the Teflon coated pump bushing. Was a little more money but for a few dollars I splurged.
Drill the drain back hole.
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/Transgo%20Shift%20Improver/downloadfile-6.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/Transgo%20Shift%20Improver/downloadfile-6.jpg.html)
I didn't grind on that piece. Many do, I just chose not to.
I put a pump seal retainer on as insurance.
http://www.bulkpart.com/2/product/200-4Rseals/74089.html (http://www.bulkpart.com/2/product/200-4Rseals/74089.html)
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_4L60E_Heavy_duty_pump_vane_rings_p/350-000035343.htm (http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_4L60E_Heavy_duty_pump_vane_rings_p/350-000035343.htm)
As above you need a .500 boost valve
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_500_o_ring_style_T_V_boost_valve_kit_p/400-077917500.htm (http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_500_o_ring_style_T_V_boost_valve_kit_p/400-077917500.htm)
Larger rev boost valve
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_Reverse_Boost_Valve_p/400-00k77898a.htm (http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_Reverse_Boost_Valve_p/400-00k77898a.htm)
And the spring that goes in there.
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/SONNAX_77917_08_700R4_Pressure_regulator_spring_p/400-007791708.htm (http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/SONNAX_77917_08_700R4_Pressure_regulator_spring_p/400-007791708.htm)
Tv spring for the tv valve. Maybe not needed but springs fatigue and this is pretty inexpensive.
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_TV_Plunger_Spring_1982_86_p/400-07796801k.htm (http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_TV_Plunger_Spring_1982_86_p/400-07796801k.htm)
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http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/library/Transmission/Transgo%20Shift%20Improver (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/library/Transmission/Transgo%20Shift%20Improver)
Link to the rest of the transgo instructions.
One other thing I was told after I put mine back together was the over pressure valve. It has a pin, spring and ball bearing . The pressure pushes on the ball and spring to act as a bypass when pressure goes too high. Apparently the spring rubs on the pin and after many cycles rubs through the spring. This can be a cause of buzzing and can spray fluid out the top trans vent tube. I was told to put a washer between the spring and pin it prevents the spring from getting rubbed on and breaking. When it breaks the trans pressure gets reduced ans trans clutch life suffers.
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Thanks for the suggestions and links! I'm still considering my options. I'm still unsure what the goal of these mods are, would you mind explaining better? Are these mods done to "improve" shifting?
The reason I ask is that my trans already shifted hard enough for my liking, especially 1-2 and 2-3. OD kind of slid it so I wouldn't mind stiffening that shift a little. I'm at least going to go for the hardened rings and drill out the oil passages.
VJ had to be holding back his laughter :rolleyes; I just hope that he thought I was on Meth so I can save face a little.
In that picture I had already pressed that little pin into the new stator support, mine didn't come that way either.
The other site (http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/attention-new-version-strengthening-the-2004r.31365/) has a detailed description of the what Larrym was referring to as far as checking for pump squareness. Maybe I'll check mine but I'm sure not going to machine anything.
My impression is that Janis believes in my situation that the mods are unnecessary at my current or goal power level (High twelves), he had me change the shaft, worn parts and put the thing back together.
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Good info guys :cheers:
Rich, did you just press in the new stator and go? Or did you have to "square" it?
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I just pressed it in and went with it. I understand the turbobuick sticky and I guess it might be needed, but I'm getting good pressures so I didn't worry about it.
I think the factory didn't do that much or if they did it was part of the manufacturing process. I think if the flat side of the pump is flat and the pocket is in good condition you should be ok. I'm not building for hhe 10s though so maybe it would if I were. Getting the boost valve, rev boost valve and the spring are important to get pressure up. And getting the direct clutches and the band clearances are more important.
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I searched up the tci, b&m, level 10 shift "kit" instructions to see what they were about. Reading the jakeshoe posts on websites also provided info. I settled on different size holes(smaller) for the vb plate. I did some different springs in the accumulators to get snappier shifts. But I am using an AA code Cadillac vb/gov combo. I would block or pit the 700 return spring in the line bias and move the line bias spring to the accumulator in the vb . I didn't buy a packaged "shift kit". I just pieced together springs n valves after reading the info and formulating my plan.
To give you an idea of the research I did I went back to the beginning of turbobuick.com on the wayback machine website and read every post and replay to current when I was putting the trans together. There is a LOT of info out there. Much of it contradicts itself and some is just wrong from my experience. Others are just trying to sell you things. The 10 and 13 vane pump is to me a waste of money, though I do think you need the hard rings and a stiff sonnax slide spring. If your rotor and vanes are in good shape as mine were I'd put it back together fill it with trans assembly lube to help it prime and run it. This is obviously my opinion and I'm not a guru. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes who feel they need more vanes in their pump. I just feel it puts more pieces in, takes up more space and reduces the pump volume.
Same goes for some of the expense of some of the bearings and machine work needed to get them in. Just like a main or rod bearing, as long as the fluid temp is kept in check and it has the hydraulic wedge, the plastic washers should be fine. I'm not busting down tens either so I'm sure there are some who need them I just don't think it is me at this time.
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Thanks TexasT, as always I appreciate your input. I did go with the plan of putting the trans back together as is. This just worked out with my schedule better because I didn't have to wait on the parts. Also I liked the way my trans shifted before, so I didn't really want to change it.
In the end The complete list of things that I replaced were:
Stator shaft, new hardened unit
Bearing in the pump
Valve body and accumulator gaskets
Pump gasket and O-ring.
Servo exterior O-ring
"Mickey Mouse" Washer (The thing nylon thrust washer that goes on the back of the pump).
Pan gasket and filter
Trans fluid
All my frictions seemed good, Vince Janis took a look and said that, since the writing on the frictions was still easily readable, they were not significantly worn. So I cleaned the heck out of everything, using detergent on the external case and gasoline for the internals of the case and anything I took out of it.
I spent probably at least 2 hours scraping the gasket off the separator plate for the valve body. It was a real big pita, I was hating myself and that stupid thing after about an hour of scraping with a razor. I think if I would do it over again, I'd go at it with the DA sander and some 80 grit or something.
Here is the pump halves all cleaned and ready to go, new hardened stator shaft and bearing installed.
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Great to hear it is working out for you. Any mods other than what you listed? Vb mods or springs?
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Another lesson learned was that I think an assembly/ rebuild manual would be highly worthwhile. Without it I made several mistakes that made assembly a real pain. First off, I assembled the servo into the case about 2 steps too soon and it made getting the frictions aligned and the center support in properly almost impossible.
And about those frictions.... I don't know what the proper way to do it, but getting all the frictions, and the components that engage with the frictions, aligned and into the case properly was very very difficult. I would try aligning everything outside the case but the moment you touch a friction or steel separator it screws everything up. I found that putting the case vertically, and just twisting the parts was about the only way to get things to engage with the frictions. I bet it took another couple of hours to get everything to line up properly and I bet I tried about 10 different times before I was able to get the center support in properly. I'm not sure there is much on the net about how to assemble a 200 4r, but I'm sure I did it about the dumbest way possible. Somehow I got it back together
Below is a picture of the center support puller I used, REPEATEDLY. And the brains of the whole operation.
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I think you are way ahead of me with the lift. And a helper dog, mine never helps me. Haha. And with v Janis being from Akron, well I was born in Akron. We lived at Canal Fulton for the first few years of my life.
Be sure to check clearance and function of the servo. I used air pressure on the pan rail exhaust to activate the servo.
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Finally, after getting everything back in the trans went very smoothly into the car! It's so easy with a lift, months back my transmission jack got stolen, so I had to put the trans on a cart and just lower the car to the trans a little at a time. It took a little more time without a trans jack, but so much better than doing it on the ground!
I finished everything up about two sundays ago and have driven the car about 200 miles since. With the torque converter working properly, now the cars low end seems 100% better. Before I couldn't build any boost when brake torqueing. My first time out, I tried brake torqueing and wound up doing a mini burnout in my driveway! My tires are crappy but with the hydroboost I have held about 5 psi before spinning. I might be able to do more if I really tried, not sure.
Everything seems fine now, although I will say the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts don't seem as snappy as they were before. To answer your question Texas T, I didn't do a single modification. Didn't drill the pump or anything. Maybe I would in retrospect because now the shifting isn't as harsh as before, but it's OK with me as I am just about stock.
All told I paid about $200 for the repair plus transmission fluid. 60 for the stator, 40 for the seals, and bearings from Janis. I think the mickey mouse was 28 from dave husek, they are discontinued now and hard to get so I bought 2. The D5 I bought locally for 50, and spent maybe 10 bucks on detergent and gasoline for cleaning.
Overall it was a good, fun project and I'd definitely do it again... This time with a manual though.
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Oh yeah, I did check the servo operation as well as the OD piston and another "check" I saw on YouTube with air pressure. Never hooked up any gauges though
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Wow canal Fulton, right down the street. We had a field trip there in fifth grade but I got booted so guess I've only driven through. I keep trying to find work here but can't seem to without taking a huge pay cut. I'll likely have to leave permanently. I live in Medina county actually.
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Thanks TexasT, as always I appreciate your input. I did go with the plan of putting the trans back together as is. This just worked out with my schedule better because I didn't have to wait on the parts. Also I liked the way my trans shifted before, so I didn't really want to change it.
In the end The complete list of things that I replaced were:
Stator shaft, new hardened unit
Bearing in the pump
Valve body and accumulator gaskets
Pump gasket and O-ring.
Servo exterior O-ring
"Mickey Mouse" Washer (The thing nylon thrust washer that goes on the back of the pump).
Pan gasket and filter
Trans fluid
All my frictions seemed good, Vince Janis took a look and said that, since the writing on the frictions was still easily readable, they were not significantly worn. So I cleaned the heck out of everything, using detergent on the external case and gasoline for the internals of the case and anything I took out of it.
I spent probably at least 2 hours scraping the gasket off the separator plate for the valve body. It was a real big pita, I was hating myself and that stupid thing after about an hour of scraping with a razor. I think if I would do it over again, I'd go at it with the DA sander and some 80 grit or something.
Here is the pump halves all cleaned and ready to go, new hardened stator shaft and bearing installed.
Bearing? Am I missing sum'n or did you mean bushing....... in the stator tube?
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It's probably more accurately described as a bushing I think, the one I was referring to I pressed into the pump half. I think maybe it supported the stator tube but I'm not 100% sure now that it's back in the car. The hardened stator support tube came with a bushing already installed.
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It supports the snout of the torque converter. I was advised to get the Teflon coated one and use locktite and/or stake it in so it doesn't move.