IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Forzfed on February 27 2019, 10:35:50 AM
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I think I finally found a good engine builder since Earl won't move to Canada!
My buddy has a factory Plymouth GTX 426 hemi 4 spd car. He took it to a local guy that just started a machine shop to go through the motor that was suppose to have a fresh rebuild. He found a few issues with it. He noticed that the rings weren't sealing in certain locations in the bore and those locations lined up with the studs in the head. He came to the conclusion that however did the cylinders did not use the bolts or studs that were suppose to be on the heads on the torque plate. He also likes to put all the head bolts under tension to see if they are even and if not tensions them to all the same value prior to install.
Sounds good to me. What do you think, Earl?
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I'm not Earl, but torque plates should be torqued down to the same specs as the heads will be torqued down
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Ideally, you use the same fasteners you're going to use and an old head gasket that's the same style you're going to use, and torque them to the same spec you're going to use. Make sure the mains are torqued up as well.
If you really want to get anal (giggidy), torque up the motor mounts too.
If DADV is your thing, circulate hot water through the block while honing and adjust your clearances appropriately.
I like to leave the block in the honing machine overnight and check the final sizes. Based on my personal experience, blocks draw up 1/2 thou when they get back to room temp.
Funny you should mention that too. I noticed a few years ago that Buick V6 torque plates have gone THROUGH THE ROOF, and they're not even available to buy most of the time. I was talking about setting up to do a production run on torque plates and wondering how long it would take to hit my break even point.
Which reminds me, the main thing I needed to check on was if a plate will fit in a flat rate box.
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Nice! :cheers: Good info, Earl. So, I think I have myself a new machinist! He sent my buddy a vid of him loading the bearings and checking the tension. He said that even though the bolts are torque to spec doesn't necessarily mean they have the right tension on them and this could lead to the bolts coming loose over time.
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has a factory Plymouth GTX 426 hemi 4 spd car.
Jeez...
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It's a very rare combo. I forget what he said but very few came with the 4 spd.
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It's a very rare combo.
Everything about it is rare. GTX was rare because of cost. It was considered a luxury performance car. In the Plymouth line, think more than a Sport Fury. A base GTX was somewhere around a third more than a base Road Runner.
The Hemi was extremely rare because of cost and insurance. With all the street racing I did, I only saw one compete. At the track in those days, the Hemi's had their own classes. they could only compete against each other. They had a weight sanction against them in the pro classes.
I forget what he said but very few came with the 4 spd.
A 4spd was an additional cost option in at least the last 3 yrs. I do not believe I have ever seen one, 69 thru 71.
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I personally always like the GTX, way cool and the ‘70 Runner. My brother had a ‘70 RR 383 Magnum
That being said, the one car that gave the Mopar guys fits in those day was the STG 1 GS Buick lol
In stock form against each other, the Buick would outrun a Hemi
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I remember reading an old magazine that had an article from back in the day of a Hemi Cuda vs Buick GS. They said the Cuda couldn't hook so they put some sticky tires on it and left the factory bias ply tires on the Buick. And the GS still beat it. The Buick 455 weighs as much as a small block, so I imagine there would be a huge weight difference between it and the Hemi.
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Huge might be an understatement
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Yuge, perhaps? :D
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I am too smart to get involved w/brand loyalty on a brand specific forum.
I do, however, have a somewhat comprehensive list of engine weights. Helpful when building from scratch. Probably never use the Pratt&Whitney weights, but-
-a 455 Buick is approx 20# lighter than a 350 Buick
-25# more than a '60's sbc
-5# more than a 500 Cad
-140# less than an early Hemi.
No info on a 426 Hemi.
I do not doubt the article or that it happened. Having went though that era, I won't try to explain it. Pure Stock and on street rubber available when those cars were new, I would have bet good money an SC/Rambler would have beat both. 'Scambler' Ramblers were the cheapest/lightest niche muscle cars ($3000)made. At their rated hp, there was no insurance penalty.
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One of my buddy's is building a 455, I actually picked some parts up for him. He was the one that told me the short block 455 weighs the same as a short block Buick 350. I cannot confirm or deny this.
I have an old Magazine where they took a Chevelle LS6 454 and ran it against a stock GN in the 1/4 in freezing conditions. They put ET streets and race fuel in the Chevelle and left the GN bone stock. The Chevelle won but the GN gave it a close race. Again, they should have put race fuel and sticky tires on the GN.
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One of my buddy's is building a 455, I actually picked some parts up for him. He was the one that told me the short block 455 weighs the same as a short block Buick 350. I cannot confirm or deny this.
I have never weighed them. Externally they are identical. The 455 has over a half inch larger bore and some amount less webbing. My information shows a 455 @ 600# and a 350 @ 620 as installed. I have a large list, nothing verified.
I have an old Magazine where they took a Chevelle LS6 454 and ran it against a stock GN in the 1/4 in freezing conditions. They put ET streets and race fuel in the Chevelle and left the GN bone stock. The Chevelle won but the GN gave it a close race. Again, they should have put race fuel and sticky tires on the GN.
I own a stock GN (slighty larger rear tires) and am better acquainted with a '70 LS6 than most. OEM, as delivered, I would bet my car would win. With any reasonable amount of traction, my car would easily lose.
The LS6 as produced, w/oem distributor would require better gas than was available at the pump from about 1973 on. They were advertised @ 11.5 compression and would 'pour' above 11.
About 3 mos. after the LS6 became available, a dealership engaged me to help one of their mechanics 'blueprint' and dyno an LS6 crate motor. GM chose to over rate the LS6 instead of rating it at 425 hp. The 425 was a BS deal manufacturer's used for insurance purposes. Some 425 hp motors were ridiculously underrated. At least 3 made 500+. At 21, I could not have driven an LS6 Chevelle (450 hp) if given to me. A 425 hp car would have required high risk insurance for the duration of the note and this would have had to be brokered thru the bank or dealer.
An LS6 was a nice car and was expensive. Not as expensive as a GTX or a GSX. I drove them, rode in them, worked on them and sold aftermarket parts for them. The first one I tuned, would wipe the oem tires out in 3rd gear. If you allowed it to peg the tach, it would probably take 1 1/2 seconds to get under steam again.
Oh yeah, that crate motor dyno'ed 434 gross.
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A few vids for the Mopar fans from my channel. Dan Kellers Roadrunner and Keven Pelletiers Procharged Coronet. Dans car runs 6.4 in the 1/8th and Kevins runs 5's...it's a monster. We all bracket race together with these boys in Nostalgia Class.
Dans Roadrunner walkaround...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BwiPoRlpxo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BwiPoRlpxo)
Kevins RT...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlHbFS7-924 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlHbFS7-924)
The boys runnin' heads up...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doorvW76RWs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doorvW76RWs)
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Nice cars! There was an old drag racer that has a beautiful 70 GTX with a 514 with 13:1, indy heads, davinci carb. Body wise it is a show car. I took him for a spin in my car and he took me for a spin in his GTX, wow I couldn't believe the crazy torque and pull that car had. He used to have a believe it was a Cuda Hemi race car, definitely a hemi car and he actually sold it to Ed Belfour(Eddie the Eagle).
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Scoob, those are show quality, huh? I am curious, what rear suspension system is in use on those?
I went to your YouTube channel. You take performance seriously.
Weather has me indoors, so-
This young man and I, brainstormed this car almost 2 years before he bought this car. The only car I know of, completely built by the owner. The most consistent bracket car I have ever heard of. Carburated on E-85. It took him 10 years to build it. It was raced the last 4 yrs of that. Unfortunately it took probably less than 10 seconds to destroy it. It went 1.29/6.19 eighth.
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Show quality, I dunno...but they're nice.
Dan Kellers Roadrunner. He bought that out of Florida...and whoever built it...knew what they were doing. It was turn key...and the suspension was all set up in it. Bring the revs up...jump on it...and it cuts 1.4's all day long. You can see him run a 10.5 at 131 on one of the vids...and does it all day long.
Kevins RT Coronet. To my knowledge Kevin built that car from ground up. Kevin's a Mopar guy through and through...and then some. Kevin kinda gravitated towards me cuz I was the only other person there racing a turbo charged setup. I'd let him know to fatten it up between rounds on a temp/humidity change. He's real quick at making jetting changes.
I'll text Dan Keller and ask him the rear suspension setup. He's told me...but race gas fumes have melted what's left of my brain.
That's a real nice car you posted. Sorry it was wrecked.
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Scoob, those are show quality, huh?
You're probably thinking of what I posted about the guy with a show quality GTX. I ran into an old buddy/coworker last summer and he built himself a 55 Chevy. I'll post the pics up in another thread.
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WMsonta. Dans Roadrunner has Cal Tracs rear suspension and was built by Barrs Performance in Naples Florida. I have the last owners name...can PM it to you.
Link for Barrs Performance...http://barrsrestorations.com/ (http://barrsrestorations.com/)
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Thanks.I am aware of Cal Trac's. I have 2 guys that use them. I thought it possible, one of these guy's might be using Mother Mopar's Super Stock suspension parts available from the dealers counter. They were legend. When Pro Stock was brand new, the Mopar's were hard to beat even with the weight penalty of .5# per cu in. For 2 years, most used rear suspension parts, anybody could buy from your local dealer.
It was said that the Motown Missile did not run a quarter mile. It rotated the earth.
I just finished looking at Forzfed's 55 210 pictures. Most will not even realize the work in that front bumper. He has a friend who owns a Hemi GTX. You run with 2 guys who seemingly race show quality vintage Mopar's. You both can drive GN street cars. At this point, Ima guess neither of you have a 4 cyl s10 for your daily beater.
I am going to change my damn deodorant. Or find a church and put some money in their plate. Hell, I might even trade my oatmeal for some Lucky Charms.
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I just finished looking at Forzfed's 55 210 pictures. Most will not even realize the work in that front bumper. He has a friend who owns a Hemi GTX. You run with 2 guys who seemingly race show quality vintage Mopar's. You both can drive GN street cars. At this point, Ima guess neither of you have a 4 cyl s10 for your daily beater.
Actually, my daily is a Colorado 4 cyl. :D My buddy's Hemi GTX is actually pretty beat. But his brother is a wicked body man. He was going to do a full restoration but changed his mind and wants to drive it and not worry about putting any dings in it.
Cars aren't as expensive here as they are in the States. There is one guy here that owns 2 70 Hemi Cudas, one of them is show quality, all original Shelby GT500 with 26 000km, a 302 Camaro, 67 427 Vette. But he was telling me there is no way he could afford those cars today if he bought them. When he bought them they were pretty cheap.
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But he was telling me there is no way he could afford those cars today if he bought them. When he bought them they were pretty cheap.
Sorta like those of me that bought a Grand National in the late 90's? :)
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Exactly, Earl. I think he bought most of them after the gas crisis. Everyone was trying to get rid of all their gas guzzlers.
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I just finished looking at Forzfed's 55 210 pictures. Most will not even realize the work in that front bumper. He has a friend who owns a Hemi GTX. You run with 2 guys who seemingly race show quality vintage Mopar's. You both can drive GN street cars. At this point, Ima guess neither of you have a 4 cyl s10 for your daily beater.
Actually, my daily is a Colorado 4 cyl. :D My buddy's Hemi GTX is actually pretty beat. But his brother is a wicked body man. He was going to do a full restoration but changed his mind and wants to drive it and not worry about putting any dings in it.
Cars aren't as expensive here as they are in the States. There is one guy here that owns 2 70 Hemi Cudas, one of them is show quality, all original Shelby GT500 with 26 000km, a 302 Camaro, 67 427 Vette. But he was telling me there is no way he could afford those cars today if he bought them. When he bought them they were pretty cheap.
Kudos to your friend for getting it running and driving and DRIVING it. Best way to enjoy a car imo, is to get behind the wheel and use the loud pedal.
A 302 Camaro equates to a first gen z/28. Love to see some pix if it and the others.
Funny how car guys are. I bought some injectors from one of the local Turbo Buick guys. Went out to his "estate" and he had five turbo buicks(two gn, a limited with moonroof and vinyl top, and a couple T cars), a gt500(I think 69), a 440+6 challenger in his garages(yes plural, and he was super nice and showed them to my son and me). It was a real cool thing. Same situation. He just bought when he found a deal.
As far as a torque plate goes, I have one so one must bolt the other head and mains on for the bore and hone. I just use a stack of washers to do up the fastener "slack" so the same studs are used. I never went through the hassle of trying to get it up to temp but I guess an all out engine like the NASCAR folks do it would be part of the process. I think it is amazing just how much a Buick (all the BBB, sbb, and the v6) move and the cylinders get out of round by bolting stuff on to the block. Amazing the elasticity of the iron and that more don't crack in use.
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That's a real nice car you posted. Sorry it was wrecked.
I do not live close to him anymore. When I found it happened, he volunteered that it was his fault. When I asked about the wheelie bars, he admitted they were intentionally high. Said he enjoyed waist/shoulder high wheelies for 100 ft. Said the crowd liked it. Said nothing he was aware of could change the numbers. Why not?
He was aware they had just prepped the track and thought nothing of it. When he realized he was in trouble, he tried to keep some throttle to save it. Unfortunately, the pass side slick hit the pavement first. The car made a hard 90* right, still partially airborne. He was in the right lane. He said, when the car came to rest about 100 ft from the line, he still had some throttle on it. It had happened that fast. It did not get over the guardrail and therefore not into the stands. Apparently, no pictures are known to exist.
There should be a thread where everybody discusses their safety routines. Given the number of quick cars on this board, I could probably learn. I would certainly contribute.
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A 302 Camaro equates to a first gen z/28. Love to see some pix if it and the others.
Funny how car guys are. I bought some injectors from one of the local Turbo Buick guys. Went out to his "estate" and he had five turbo buicks(two gn, a limited with moonroof and vinyl top, and a couple T cars), a gt500(I think 69), a 440+6 challenger in his garages(yes plural, and he was super nice and showed them to my son and me). It was a real cool thing. Same situation. He just bought when he found a deal.
The guy with the Camaro and other cars is more of an acquaintance. I raced against him in a drag radial series we had years ago. I do see him at the local car shows.