IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense

Tech Area => General Auto Tech => Topic started by: larrym on July 29 2016, 09:56:05 PM

Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 29 2016, 09:56:05 PM
so I got it all set up there are a couple things in these logs that have me confused is there really 24.7 degrees of timing in this chip thats what it shows WOT in third.
The chip is programed to lock the converter at 85 I have a switch on brake switch to stop it from doing so could it be affecting the 3rd gear signal from the trans? the chip is burnt for 23/25 a boat load of timing

I know its fat but my gauge shows 10.5 not the low tens the log shows.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 29 2016, 11:25:19 PM
It appears it's either the pressure switch or the wiring 3rd gear never shows gotta drop the pan 😟
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on July 29 2016, 11:49:38 PM
I don't think Eric uses the switch...befor e you take stuff apart, ask him

I would be more concerned as to why the gauge and the PL give different answers.  I am sure you told Eric what wb you are using.  tell me so I can set my pl up.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 29 2016, 11:57:33 PM
What has Eric got written on the chip? Am I seeing a lean spike of 11.18 and KR of 10.1? Battery voltage 12.2 at WOT?
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on July 29 2016, 11:58:58 PM
I would also wonder why the o2s are starting to be on the lean side while you say the wb numbers are very rich....and the stock O2 are lean and the boost is only 19 psi

Something is not right
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on July 30 2016, 12:00:16 AM
What has Eric got written on the chip? Am I seeing a lean spike of 11.18 and KR of 10.1? Battery voltage 12.2 at WOT?

I am guessing the ecm is hearing something when he gets on it...need to compare the alternator voltage to the PL voltage but, its's low like you said.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 01:19:53 AM
It's am AEM WB that knock was as I got on it it was a little lean.
I did not even look at the narrow band readings.....
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 01:22:37 AM
And the voltage does drop WOT it's 200 amp alternator most of the time it's close to 14 volts I think my battery is on its way out.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Be4u on July 30 2016, 03:07:12 AM
How can I view Larrys files on a tablet?
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: TexasT on July 30 2016, 05:26:14 AM
http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=5346.msg77846;topicseen#new (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=5346.msg77846;topicseen#new)
See my post. It is about the nineth post down on the fourth page on my thing. Yours may differ on the location . I have a link in there. You have to be running windows to use the pwrlgr software but it does work on my desktop running XP.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: good2win22 on July 30 2016, 07:07:36 AM
It appears it's either the pressure switch or the wiring 3rd gear never shows gotta drop the pan 😟
If the metal on the tranny filter is touching the terminal on the pressure switch, it's been my experience that you won't see the gear swap on the PL. 
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 07:13:14 AM
To view PL files you MUST have the PL software loaded on whatever device you're using. I believe it runs on 98 Windows on up. I use XP on my laptop in my TR to record runs.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on July 30 2016, 09:36:02 AM
It's am AEM WB that knock was as I got on it it was a little lean.
I did not even look at the narrow band readings.....

You will find the the narrow band is more reliable in a general sense than the wb in 90% of the cases.  If the wb sensor is a Bosch (which yours is) and it has seen a single dose of leaded fuel, then you can figure that it is not reading correctly.  If the narrow band sensor has seen leaded fuel, then it is suspect as well altho we seem to think the Denso nb sensor is a bit more resistant.

If the wb gauge does not agree with 0.1-0.2 a/f's with the PL, then I suspect the install.

Your car should be showing 0.850v on the narrow band at your reported wideband readings at that low of boost.  Obviously you have data that is not worthy of use and you need to determine if the narrow band or the wide band is the problem.

I would think the car should be tuned to a wide band reading of about 11.2 for that low of  boost with no sign of timing retard.  It looks like it is hearing a noise that is not detonation but given that I don't believe your readings at this point and don't know the parts history, I would not place a bet on anything.

The voltage is low.  I don't know if it is low because it is the typical scantool difference due to the analog to digital conversion in the ECM, a corroded fuse holder in the fuse block for the ecm-ign fuse, or the common loose, corroded terminals on the ignition switch connector.  Only a voltmeter connected to the wiring on the inside of the car will tell us if the scantool is reading correctly or is off a bit as so often a case.  I have seen different ecms provide a different voltage to the scantool so I am always leery as to the source of "low voltages".

The 200 amp alternator does not mean it is good either...I have one and it has a cheap imported regulator in it just like most do today.  I don't see anything that suggests the battery is bad but we don't have any data to go on either way at this point.  It is really the voltage going to the module that counts in most cases, I think.





Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 09:41:26 AM
Larry...that's a C12 chip you're running. Checked my PL log and it's the same as my C12 race chip on the default timing settings from the log from last nite. I was fairly certain Eric didn't run that much with his alky chip. I grabbed my alky chip from the glovebox and it's 22/20. You can adjust the timing to 22/20...but I'm fairly certain he runs different fuel and timing curves depending if it's a street/race/alky chip. What has Eric written on the chip?
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 10:03:03 AM
Larry, I assume you were running pump gas with alky for that PL file. What octane?
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 10:26:34 AM
Lots to take in with these response's thank you.
Fuel was 94 and ALKY
WB is sensor is new the narrow band is a few years old it's a Denso and while driving the voltage is all over cross counts clime steady.
The chip is burned for 25/23 and 23 psi and alky both my scan tool and the powerlogger do not see 3rd but 4th does show when it's in overdrive.
As for the battery it loses its charge quickly when I was hooking up the powerlogger and installing it with interior lights on and then trying to connect it there was not enough juice to start it. I had a but of an issue with the drivers and windows 8 took me a little while.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 10:33:06 AM
I always thot Eric ran 20 degrees for his alky chip...unless someone asked for that much default timing when they ordered it. What PSI does your alky come on at?
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 10:40:45 AM
Alky comes on around 8 psi Full on at 18 psi
It feels good and the initial retard is gone right away. I could drop the turn on point if it continues to be a problem this just works well for part throttle low boost I get a rich stubble if the turn on point is too low.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 10:46:36 AM
Just a theory I have. The 1st gear KR might be real with 25 degrees timing. With that much timing and 94...it might be timing knock...and the alky coming on made it taper off. Just a theory. If you're convinced it's an alky chip...and not a copy...then I'd adjust the timing to 22/20 and try it again...with a fresh battery.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 10:55:43 AM
And maybe a new narrow band.
Brad do your logs show 3rd gear and the change of timing from 1-2 to 3rd
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on July 30 2016, 10:56:46 AM
I'm giving up on this one...I need a score card to follow this stuff
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 10:59:51 AM
Yes...and yes. Bring up the gauge panel...and push your right arrow key on your device. You can watch everything in real time...or one frame at a time. You can go back in the log with the left key.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 11:07:16 AM
No Steve no !
Thanks Brad so I have another VB here I will take the 4th switch and swap it with the third and replace the 4th gear switch since I know that one works. New battery and pull some timing and report back.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: gusszgs on July 30 2016, 11:41:52 AM
Eric's "alky" chip is usually burned for 23/21* timing in default
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on July 30 2016, 12:23:28 PM
Larry, I learned a long time ago not to waste my time trying to tune a car that obviously has problems.  I am fixing to be 75 and I have better things to do with the time I have left :D

Your wide band does not agree with itself and it does not agree with the narrow band.

Your battery is bad so we don't know how that affects the total equation.  Whether you have a voltage problem, or you don't-we know things are not quite right.

You are running a race chip apparently burnt for straight gas instead of alky and we know it has too much timing for most situations.  It also throws more fuel for much higher boost throughout the rpm range whereas an alky chip pulls fuel out throughout the range, typically runs less timing, and plays tricks with the timing onset to prevent transitional knock.

So, as I said, I am sitting this one out :)  Brad is younger, has more recent tuning experience, and obviously has more patience than I do :D 


Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 01:37:49 PM
What baffles me is this. I see peoples sigs...and they've spent a ton of money on 'cool guy' stuff...but won't pay a couple of bucks for something like Erics chip. I've stated to one of the new guys that there's zero room for error with these cars...and I mean zero. It's absolutely imperative that Erics chip be burned for your exact combination... and your desired max boost level.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 03:08:50 PM
Thanks all
New battery in hand pressure switch and NB I hope to have it all together today an see what I can do with what I got my only race of the year next week and with my GEN2 at Bob's I have begged borrowed and stole parts to get me to the races. Borrowed chip regular translator same with the powerlogger
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 04:31:23 PM
I do like the powerlogger might not give it back lol
I never would have known about the pressure switch with out it. Eric replied and if the computer does not see 3rd it will maintain the timing programmed for 1-2
What this means is with the gen2 I use when I had it programmed for 19 degrees the ExtenderG chip adds 2 degrees in 1-2 so I was running 21 degrees 1-2-3
Once I have it all back together I will pull a couple degrees over all and add wee bit 1-2
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 06:41:46 PM
Larry, if I'm reading that PL file correctly...yo u're letting out of it in 2nd at 5 grand...correc t?
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 06:49:25 PM
No that's 3rd it thinks it's in second I did have one log that down shifted to second.
I tested the new and the old pressure switch and the old was leaking I wonder what that was doing to the line pressure in 3rd.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 07:09:45 PM
Okay,,,then you're out of fuel in high gear on the default setting. I'm guessing you woulda been around 5500 for a full 1320...so I'd add the full 20 percent to high gear fuel. I'd add 10 percent to low gear fuel. My guess is that chip was burned for a smaller turbo...and you're sucking the chip dry. I play it safe. I overfuel...and then creep up on the tune. I got better things to do than change head gaskets.

.
And set the timing to 22/20...and what's the voltage at the back of the alternator.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 07:25:08 PM
we are only running the 1\8 this year so I wont be running it out in 3rd street outlaws downtown I really didn't want to miss it 

Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 07:35:20 PM
Larry...is there a road you could mark off an 1/8th mile? If so...add the 10 percent low gear fuel...20 percent high gear fuel...and 22/20 timing. I want you to keep an eye on the knock gauge. If you see KR...get out of it. Don't forget to record the run.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 30 2016, 08:31:32 PM
20% added fuel and less timing new 02 and battery still shows low voltage wot over 14 volts at the back of the alternator
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 30 2016, 08:55:54 PM
As Steve alluded to your WB doesn't agree with your NB. Data table says the convertor is locked in high gear...so I'll assume Erics chip is commanding it to do so. I'm gonna go with the NB reading. You're out of high gear fuel. If you're determined to race...then I'd back the boost down to 20...and check that the ambient air temp and humidity is close to todays.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 31 2016, 12:00:17 PM
This chip was in my car before I knew much about these cars it had less cam and stock heads and a 61/31 JB turbo My first trip to the track was with it. Managed an 11.8 with 25lbs of boost my AEM meth kit and 5 gallons of race gas on top of 1/4 tank of 94.
I'm happy to run it at 19/20 psi the way it is I just want to be part of the weekend. It's a great time with a bunch of friends. I had a 9/11 converter in it at the time so locking at WOT was fine. I have a switch hooked up to the brake pedal to prevent that with this converter  we are planning a trip to western speedway today to practice a couple launches its 380' with hard right at the end part of a roundy round track I will log some passes and watch for any knock and dial it back if I have too I will start with a tame tune 
Filled up my slicks last night looks like I need a new tube. It's not my year.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on July 31 2016, 03:33:12 PM
Racing with friends is where it's at. Larry...put up the RPM and your MPH on the graphs together. Note the RPM drop...and your MPH rising. Would appear it's still locking.


Do some research on the other board about bumping the octane and alky.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on July 31 2016, 10:20:18 PM
Had a good day traction was an issue best I managed was a 5.58 equals to around a 12.25 according to the locals made about 7 passes hooked on 2 but it was fun none the less.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on August 01 2016, 11:44:31 AM
Question when logging you can start anytime but the capture is only so long and it is from the point you hit save back correct?
I think I got 2 logs out of all my passes....
Missed starting the logs on a couple could not get the logger to reconnect on 1 after I stopped and restarted the car and hit the stop record on 2 too late
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on August 01 2016, 11:46:38 AM
https://www.facebook.com/lmyhres/posts/10210158591589605
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: gusszgs on August 01 2016, 12:54:50 PM
Question when logging you can start anytime but the capture is only so long and it is from the point you hit save back correct?
I think I got 2 logs out of all my passes....
Missed starting the logs on a couple could not get the logger to reconnect on 1 after I stopped and restarted the car and hit the stop record on 2 too late


Yes, I think the monitor buffer is 20 or 22 seconds after the run. I just hit space bar AFTER the pass, then hit save it BEFORE I even get my time slip. I forget sometimes too.
You ran 5.58 in the 1/8?  :O  Or was that meant to be a 7  :)
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on August 01 2016, 01:07:15 PM
It 385 feet lol I wish Just practice launches and reaction time.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: gusszgs on August 01 2016, 04:01:22 PM
Was gonna say..... your kick'n ass!! lol
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Be4u on August 01 2016, 04:40:38 PM
Was gonna say..... your kick'n ass!! lol
riiight?! I was literatly sitting here impressed af thinking his friends were messing with him on the times.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on August 01 2016, 08:31:13 PM
This is what I do. I have the GAUGE panel up. Just before I get waved in I hit MONITOR. If PL is working correctly you'll see the gauges moving. When I get waved in then I hit RECORD. When I finish the run I stop on the return road and save the run. I overwrite it and type in the date and run number.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: aminga on August 04 2016, 01:11:00 PM
This is what I do. I have the GAUGE panel up. Just before I get waved in I hit MONITOR. If PL is working correctly you'll see the gauges moving. When I get waved in then I hit RECORD. When I finish the run I stop on the return road and save the run. I overwrite it and type in the date and run number.

Actually you can set it up to trigger at TPS volts.  Mine is set to 3.5 Volts and record for 10 seconds minimum.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: aminga on August 04 2016, 01:31:01 PM
A couple of things to remember here.

Boost is only 17 PSI you almost don't need alky (especially with 94 octane)

It's real knock, not something loose.  Since it's wicked fat it may be rich knock.  I might back the alky down a little. At 18 PSI if you back the timing down you don't need much alky at all

 If you notice it happens right as you mat the gas.

Airflow seems low for 10PSI but the MAF looks responsive.

Seems like it's struggling to get RPM too, also a sign of it being rich.
Title: powerlogging!
Post by: larrym on August 21 2016, 11:58:39 AM
So been doing some mucking about. Ran the ground from my wide band to the computer case smartened that up the readings on the gauge and the PL pretty much mirror each other. Load tested the alternator it appears fine. While testing my buddy said the power might be my problem. Talked to my other buddy next door the marine electrician "no problem I'll set you up"   

2 gauge lol over engineering at its best!
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on August 21 2016, 07:34:53 PM
Nothin' better than overkill! Lol! I swapped out both neg and pos battery cables from John at Caspers. I figured they'd have a shitload of resistance built up in them from 87.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Steve Wood on August 21 2016, 11:10:33 PM
My stock cable on the GN developed a hot spot in it about a foot from the battery...and a big voltage drop as a result...I did not cut the cable open to see if there was a connection at that point...should have.
Title: Re: powerlogging!
Post by: Scoobum on August 22 2016, 07:21:08 AM
I cut open the negative cable. It was awful brittle. Keeping the electronics in these cars fresh pays dividends.
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