IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
General => IHADAV8 Playground => Topic started by: Forzfed on June 29 2019, 10:11:30 AM
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Do you think you can out corner a Harley on your TZ? :icon_lol:
I was talking to a guy at work and I telling him how Harley's aren't designed to corner. He goes on about counter steering and how he knows guys that can go fast on their HOG. I told him it's easier to throw 300lbs around a corner compared to 800 lbs. I told him I believe in counter balancing because when I come out of a corner drifting with my front tire in the air counter steering ain't doing crap for me. Then I had to explain the 2 stroke advantage of not needing a slipper clutch.
I just watched a video of Harley beating sports bike around corners. The guy did go somewhat fast for a Harley but he was braking going into a corner!! The only time I have to brake going into a corner is if someone is in front of me. One of the fastest guys on the road course here, dad told him never brake going into corners. Especially on a light weight 2 stroke that he rides!
Thoughts, comments, laughter?
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My TZ is 206 pounds. :)
The weight of the bike has nothing to do with cornering effort. Once the CofG isn't on top of the contact patch, the bike is traveling in an arc. That's just basic physics.
With breaking, the correct way to go fast is to trail brake into the corner. Basically, when vertical and about to enter a corner, you have 100% of available traction that can be used for cornering. When you get to your brake marker, it's full on the brakes. At the turn in point as the bike leans over you have to allocate some of the braking traction to cornering. As you get closer to the apex, the braking traction has decresed to 0% as the cornering now has all 100%. At the apex, you're full off the brakes and starting to crack the throttle. As the bike returns to vertical, more and more throttle can be applied as you need need less cornering traction. The bike will also help with that as the diameter of the rear tire is much smaller on the sides compared to the middle. So as you stand the bike up, it's like a change in rear end gears so to speak.
It sounds complex at first, but it's natural if your practiced and trained to corner correctly. In my racing school handbook in the cornering chapter that's a quote that says ''If you're smoking the front tire going into every corner, sliding both tires through ever corner, and spinning the rear tire out of every corner.... YOU MIGHT BE COMPETITIVE''.
It's not the ''ballet'' it looks like on TV where the bikes are just floating back and forth through the esses. It's actually pretty violent. Even when done right. Tires really take a beating as they're the only component that has to handle all 3 facets. Acceleration, braking, and cornering. (another quote from the handbook... ''if yer tires are crap, yer bike is crap'').
And the MOST HATED thing I ever encountered on a track were those POS Buells. (you know the ''fast Hardleys that corner") It's literally impossible to ride at any speed safely with those rolling chicanes in the way.
it's utterly befuddling how you can come out of turn and see a bike 1/8 mile in front of you and in the blink of an eye having to do evasive maneuvers to keep from rear ending it with about a drastic difference in speed. I rarely got scared on the track, but those damn things are the reason for at least 85% of my 'oh shit' moments.
As another interesting facet, practice sessions are usually broke in to ''big bike'' and ''little bike''. 600cc is the difference between the two. Buells practice in the little bike sessions. They're just that damn slow (and that's their ''fast'' sport bike versions of those antiquated POS engines).
On my TZ I could ride in either. My 250 has the performance/lap times of a big bike, but I would sometimes ride in the little bike class so I could practice my lapped traffic when I needed to slice through the slow guys under race conditions.
It got so bad, I'd get off the track if there was a Buell out there. That's why if you ever catch a road race with Hardleys on there, they're usually racing in a class that only allows Hardleys. ...for good reason. Usually it's billed as something specific like ''American V twin''. That way some guy with an '88 GS500 can't show up and clean their clock.
....and tell your buddy ''counter steering'' isn't a thing. He needs a new front tire that isn't cupped. (or in his case, a chassis with rake and trail that's geared towards performance). Once you shove the handlebar and put the suspension in motion, you don't have to hold the bike down unless there's a problem. Normally that's a feathered front tire from underinflation . Or just a shitty chassis.
Bikes naturally want to do what they're supposed to do. The only thing that can screw them up is the loose nut behind the handle bars. ...or in this case a bench racer that doesn't know any real data about two wheeled chassis.
(https://catalogofbias.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/03/dk-effect-1.png)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
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I'm talking tight corners back to back. We have some tight ones on our road courses and the bigger cc bikes cannot keep up to the small 2 strokes like your TZ and some old school RZ's. One guy has a TZR with an 80hp RZ motor in it and the GSX750R can't touch him in the corners.
I've read a few articles with pro riders on their 250's killing all the big cc bikes in the corners and their biggest complaint was having to slow down in the corners for those bikes! :icon_lol:
My buddy went to Calgary for a Pro racing course and destroyed the instructors lap time! After separating his shoulder a couple times he has given up racing. He has a nice HP4 but that bike has never been on the track.
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Sounds like you have a bunch of slow dudes up there.
By " tight corners back to back" are you talking about esses where you have to flick the bike from one side to the other, or a pair of small radius turns in rapid succession?
Keep in mind, ''destroying'' someone in the corners is only 1 or 2 miles per hour at the apex. And that's doing it right, AKA going so fast you have to drag the brakes all the way to the apex.
Plus it's really not fair to compare street based race bikes and purpose built GP bikes. The latter typically has a few degrees less rake and quite a bit more ground clearance when cranked over. They're truly different animals. The 2strokers can't make up for a blown corner or being in the wrong gear like a 4cyl 4stroke can. But in the hands of a competent rider that can maintain corner speed, that's no longer a factor. That's when you see the ''little'' 2strokes kicking the crap out of the bigger bikes.
Not to mention the GP bikes typically have the same size tires at the big bore street based bikes. Only they have better slicks and never run DOTs. A lot of the production and supersport type classes require DOTs, so that's another handicap as well.
but it always comes down to a variation of F=MA A little less F coupled with a whole lot less M equals more A. .....even then you're still at the mercy of the tires. Once you go past 100% it's time to take a soil sample. :)
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In the 70s the 350 Yamaha were killing the 750
Even the factory H1R were struggling to run with the Yamaha
Factory HD got past on the oval at Daytona not even Cal Rayborn could stay with the Yamaha
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70's, Yamaha's, and kicking the shit out of Hardleys were before my time, but I wish I could find one of these...
"When they heard it, it was too late''. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsZ_AUFbX4&t=141s
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I remember that
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Earl do you vintage race your TZ ? What year is it?
I’ve seen you post about Kenny’s Indy mile bike before.
I know two were built. One Kenny road and Don Vesco belt one for Skip Askline
Bought built at our shop.
Skip didn’t make the main event. I’m almost sure there were two more frames Champion had built.
Where they went I don’t have a clue.
My hart will always beat with 50-1
H-D have that statement I’m here looked at me much like a Camaro.
This is why we drive Buick’s
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No, T-Zed is stuck waaaaay back in the back corner of my tool room and covered with crap. I haven't started that thing in over a decade. (or any of my other bikes and my TVR).
The last time I put hands on it, I installed a new clutch, did the pre-race things, drove to Road Atlanta, and found there was some clerical issue with my racing license. ...so I drank beers all weekend and towed it home.
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The last time I put hands on it, I installed a new clutch, did the pre-race things, drove to Road Atlanta, and found there was some clerical issue with my racing license. ...so I drank beers all weekend and towed it home.
I hear you on the chemical issues! :P Are you in the front or back of the picture? And your not cornering if your not dragging your elbow on the ground like Marquez. :icon_lol:
(https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp/Yv8rODE0/s6/motogp-aragon-gp-2019-marc-mar-2.jpg)
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I'm in front. My knees off the ground because we coming out of that corner. The apex is to the right of my shoulder.
At that point of the track I'm about to have to do a hard flick left then hit the front straightaway.
Elbows on the ground can suck it! All it takes is one gator strip to tickle the NOT funny bone one good time and you think you're going to die for the rest of the race. lol
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My plate number was 239.I can’t remember but that’s a junior plate you have right.
Nice form ,Road Atlanta scared the crap out of me. The fast corners not enough time for me to put the next corner together. I was a very good dirt tracker
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On Any Sunday
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I like Road Atlanta. It never scared me but the only part that gave me fits was setting up to go under the bridge at 11. It's blind as hell and I just couldn't stay on the gas long enough to slide to the outside of the track while blind. Not even closing my eyes for a 2 count as speed would work. Then one day I noticed a tall tall tree behind the quack shack that I could see before going under the bridge. Using that as a turn indicator worked like a champ. I picked up almost 2 seconds just from noticing that and was finally able to be set up for 12 (last turn of the track before the start/finish line).....
...then a couple months later I get back, take my first warm up lap and slide off into the dirt.... The fuckers cut that tree down and I was waaaaaaaaaaay too hot going under the bridge to stay on the tarmac. It took forever to get all that dirt, straw, and manure out of my leathers.
When I was racing the dip was still there. That was a surreal feeling going from 160mph then falling off a cliff while leaned over at WOT in 6th. When they got rid of it so cars could race there, it killed it for me. 10a and 10b just don't have the same appeal. After Panoz bought the track and staffed it with off duty sheriffs officers (AKA: assholes) for security, it went downhill fast. Getting rid of the dip was the last straw for me. Going to that track flat out stopped being fun.
The funnest part about Road Atlanta (other than going to the Cheetah after the track went red) was the mind games you could do to other people. I wore a mirrored face shield so on the back straight when I was touching another bike, I'd turn my head towards them and cut my eyes straight ahead. It'd look like I'm staring at them and they'd hit the breaks about a 1/4 second to early every time. At over 200 feet per second, that's a SHITLOAD of early braking. lol
The track I hated most was in Savannah. Not only was the drive down I-16 HORRIBLE, but turns 1/2 I just couldn't ever get smooth. And coming off a 160mph straightaway, that's the LAST place you want to brake early.
...and just to make things worse they replaced the pair of 90's at Talladega with a copy of Savanna 1/2. Killed my lap times and took away one of my strongest corners for jedi mindfucking other riders.
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Kenny Roberts was the first racer to use the knee. Those Yamaha guy's were a head of their time!
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The knee is just a side effect of lean angle and using body position to alter the CofG. As tires got better, lean angles increased. In the 70's and earlier, the ''correct'' riding style was to stay vertical relative to the bike. I'm not even sure if they were taught to keep their eyes level with the horizon back then.
There's no weight on it or used as an angle gauge or anything like the myths say. It's just one of those things that happen when you're trying to move the CofG to stand the bike up as much as possible. It does look cool though. I can remember a few times coming out of the counterbanked carousel at Talladega, I'd be at full lean, knee on the ground, on the gas spinning the rear tire with the front tire in the air. That's probably the coolest powerslide that can ever be done. It was horrible on the right side of my rear tire, but I didn't care. lol
The part that I still find interesting to this day is the tactile feeling of how it feels when a knee is on the ground. There's truly no other sensation (actual, not emotional) that feel like it. Zero, zilch. I can't use words to describe it. It's just not possible.