IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on June 17 2016, 10:16:10 AM
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I will be changing these, from my reading seem like 2 popular choices, 980's and 981's. Which is the better option for my combo...see sig
Thanks!!
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These days, I think I would go with the stiffer of the two
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Yes 981s where what I used ion my flat tappets the 980s are pretty mushy after you spin it high a couple times.
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Thanks guys!!
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981's and don't spin the engine past 5500. I agree with Bison. Most don't run near enuf valve spring pressure.
A lesson I learned. If you ever overboost an engine...be sure to swap in a new set of valve springs when you're changing the head gaskets.
I ran across a post from Dusty Bradfiord a while back. When he was racing these 231's back in the day...he was swapping valve springs 3 times during the race season.
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ordered some 981's and borrowed a tool from a local garage, hope to have them in and installed next week :D Been reading a lot on here and looks like I'm way conservative on my tune, fast guys running O2's in the 760 area. I'm in 790 area, and a few times in the first 100 ft showed some knock but figured it was from tire spin and not real knock, as it went away. I don't trailer to track, I drive and hour and a half, so I don't want to break the ol girl :icon_eyes: or I'm just chicken.
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Question for you?
What do Comp Cam state the 981's spring rates are at 1) closed- 1.727" & 2) open- on the nose - 1.340"
You really should use a valve spring micrometer to check the installed heights . Your spring pressures could be way over or under due to variances in the valve seat, valve tip , etc, etc. that will exist for each valve in your cylinder head.
I'm guessing your using a flat tapped cam?
Would hate to wipe a cam lobe.
Valve spring shims are available to help you fine tune each spring to achieve your desired numbers in your target (or at least get closer to it).
I used compressed air to keep the valves open when I recently did this change over with no problems (except you gotta watch out for those damn valve spring keepers as they will sometimes shoot out and good luck finding them) I was lucky to have someone come to my rescue! LOL - Thanks Brad
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980's or 981's won't bring him anywhere near the valve spring pressure I'm running...and the lifters in my engine are showing zero wear after 2 years of weekend beatings...wit h no ZDDP. Oh...and I'm currently running a Fram filter. I live life on the edge...
Shimy...if you had PL...you'd be able to verify if the KR is real...or not. :)
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I thought Comp Cams springs went to shit when they moved production to Mexico?
I have to use the hive mind here as I switched to PAC and haven't personally bought any Comp springs since all the reported problems.
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Tried to install the 981's yesterday, got all but the last 3 on passenger side. Had to order the tool from Cotton's, tool I had would not fit there. I did not reinstall the metal cups that went around the old springs....was that a bad idea?
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No you did the right thing did you measure installed hight? We usually cut a piece of wire to measure with.
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Just cut wire to top of retainer or top of spring then measure? What should it be?
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I would not worry about it at all if you have installed most of them already
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Got time to finish these up yesterday, put in some CR43ts gapped at .035, hope to fire it up tonight!! Those back 2 on the passenger side are kinda a pain in the ass :068:
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yes, they are!
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Using about four swivels makes it cake.
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Well as my luck always goes, fire it up and it barely stumbles and my knock alarm is screaming.... quickly shut it off and get out. re-check plug wires to make sure they are right....they are. To frickin hot to piss around with it tonight...with my luck it dropped a valve somehow...I double checked every one to make sure I had the lock things in good. Going to get up about 3 in the morning when its cool and tear the valve covers back off and see what shit storm is waiting :( Should have just left well enough alone :rolleyes;
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does not sound likely but have a look
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if all valve springs are in order what else would cause this? I know, probably a million things but what would be the most likely things to check first?
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pulled valve cover on pass side, I had the last/back push rod not seated in lifter so the valve was constantly open. I pulled out push rod and it had a very small bend. I straightened it out and reinstalled it. Started motor and it ran but it dosent idle smoothly, motor rocks, when I added some throttle it smoothed out but you could tell it has a slight miss. Do I need to replace that push rod? Went to re-start and it made a bad noise on first crank so I didn't start it. After work I'm going to pull both valve covers and plug wires and have wife crank it over so I can watch all valves to see if they are all moving correctly. Could just a slight bend in that one push rod be causing this wobbly idle and slight miss? If so can I just replace that one or do I need to do them all. Of could this have hurt something else?
Thanks for any help!!
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pulled covers and had wife spin it over, all valves seem to be operating properly. The push rod that got bend I got 99% straight, could that still be the issue?
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Yes
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Replace all or just that one
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Sounds like the valve that was held open hit the piston and bent the face of the valve so the valve no longer seals and that cylinder will now fire weakly causing a miss.
If a pushrod will not roll across a piece of plate glass, or any flat surface, without a sign of a wobble, it is too bent to be re-used. I have never seen a bent push rod straightened enough to work properly for very long.
Now, one has to hope the pushrod bent before the base of the lifter and the cam lobe were damaged by the impacts of a lifter that was no longer hydraulic when the pushrod was sitting on the lifter edge.
You are going to have to pull the intake, remove the head, and get the valve replaced, and a valve job at the minimum; I think.
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That's awesome, so glad I decided to change these springs :013: When I get home I'll pull the rockers assembly and put some air to that cylinder to check for leaking but I'm sure your right and I bent that fricking valve. Stupid SOB, so pissed at myself!!!! What's the best head gasket to get? Of course its the passenger side so everything is so easy to get to. Did I mention how pissed I am at myself.
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I guess we did not tell you to double check such things....
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live and learn, I just always learn the hard way :icon_confused:
Is a Victor Reinz 3797 a good head gasket to get?
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That is the same as the factory hg and it would be my choice
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Thanks Steve!!
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Pretty sure that's what Rich used (Texas T) and had good luck with it.
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Yes victor reinz. Good stuff for a fuse. Broken pistons are no fun.
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rock auto is out of them, local parts stores cant get them, any other on-line vendors for them
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Try Mike at FT. I use Felpro 9441 PT's...cuz VR's are tough to get here.
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NOS4GN has part number 25528486
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Mike at FT is showing a Sealed Power gasket set. Maybe one of the guys can shed some light on it.
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NOS4GN, that one is what came stock? Would that be good enough for running 25 LB boost?
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VR are the ones that came from the factory. I don't like the felpros as the fire ring seems weaker than it used to be.
Here is a VR source. http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/victor-reinz-turbo-buick-head-gaskets-p/vic-3797.htm (http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/victor-reinz-turbo-buick-head-gaskets-p/vic-3797.htm)
draw straws and buy the ones that comes up, I guess
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Man, I wish I could get VR's from Webber that easy up here.
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What does it cost of declared at the border by an individual?
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I got mine from mike at ft in a set with all the stuff except the intake valley pan. I got that local. I would call him and see if he has the victor reinz. I'm not to keen on a sealed power gasket, as I've not used one.
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VR are the ones that came from the factory. I don't like the felpros as the fire ring seems weaker than it used to be.
Here is a VR source. http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/victor-reinz-turbo-buick-head-gaskets-p/vic-3797.htm (http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/victor-reinz-turbo-buick-head-gaskets-p/vic-3797.htm)
draw straws and buy the ones that comes up, I guess
Thanks Steve, will be ordering up everything tonight...rock auto had everything else. :cheers:
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Steve...52 bucks with the exchange rate and shipping...dep ending on where Weber is...would prolly come in around 100 to 120. My trans parts from CK and the puck from RJC...took 2 weeks to get here. If we use UPS...then they throw their own charge on it. I've had their shipping be damn near as much as the part. Exchange rate...shippin g rate...and wait time for parts is ludicrous up here.
Here's a UPS example. Chris' wife accidently shipped my 120 dollar trans part with UPS. When it arrived, I had to fork out 120 for shipping with them at the door...and that's after I paid shipping from there.
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I meant if an individual crossed the border with something or you came down and picked it up
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I meant if an individual crossed the border with something or you came down and picked it up
Exchange + 13% sales tax.
I have about $2000 US in parts waiting in NY, it is going to cost me 2900 CDN to bring it home, plus gas and toll charges. Yup. Good times.
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Aren't we allowed $600? per day now? Last few times I went to BPG I said I had $500-$800 in parts & they just sent me along my way. I guess the catch is staying 24 hours?
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Copied this from Canadian Border Services Agency website.
Just to clarify:
Canadian Traveller personal exemption limits effective June 1, 2012
Less than 24 hoursPersonal exemptions do not apply to same-day cross-border shoppers.
24 hours or moreUp to CAN$200 – Alcohol and tobacco cannot be claimed. Goods must be in your possession at time of entry to Canada.
If the value of the goods you have purchased abroad exceeds $200 after a 24 hour absence, duty and taxes are applicable on the entire amount of the imported goods.
48 hours or moreUp to CAN$800 – May include alcohol and tobacco products, within the prescribed limits set by provincial or territorial authorities. Goods must be in your possession at time of entry to Canada. Travellers absent for periods of 48 hours or more will have the applicable exemption level credited against the total value of goods.
7 days or more Up to CAN$800 – May include alcohol and tobacco products, within the prescribed limits set by provincial or territorial authorities. For the seven-day exemption, goods may be in your possession at time of entry to Canada but are also permitted to follow entry to Canada (such as via courier, mail or delivery agency), except alcohol and tobacco products, which must be in your possession. All the goods will qualify for duty- and tax-free entry if they are declared at the initial return to Canada.
**Also, No duties or tariffs on goods being brought in for personal use provided they are made in US, Canada or Mexico as they are exempt under North American Free Trade Act (NAFTA)**
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UPS
Uncontrolled Probing of Shitter
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Can anyone point me to the torque sequence and specs for the head and for the intake manifold, been working on teardown and will soon get to head, want to do it in reverse so I don't screw it up.
Thanks!!
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http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/90683-head-bolt-torque-sequence.html#/enter (http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/90683-head-bolt-torque-sequence.html#/enter)
This should help somewhat
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Here's another reference
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Thanks guys, just what I needed. Kind of a 3 step process for the head bolts. What is a good thread sealer, they say to put it on the headbolts when installing.
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Loctite 567 (I think is the number) from the old tech article on turbobuicks.co m the stuff works good & I've also used the Dealer stuff & no issues altho I use Studs if that makes any difference?
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Sure you know you cannot reuse factory head bolts and not to buy new torque to yield bolts. Use either ARP bolts or studs
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Right or wrong... there is some evidence that TTY bolts can be reused up to 10 times.
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You try it and give us the report😄
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I'll order some ARP bolts, Thanks, I didn't know that :icon_redface:
Got it all torn down and this is the scoop. The lifter on that back valve was stuck, cleaned up the bore and used the lifter next to it and it slides smoothly now. Will have to order a new lifter also...where's a good source for that?? You can see a small mark on the carbon on the piston where it hit the intake valve. Took the head and turned up upside down and poured gas in each dome they all heldl fuel for 15 minuets and the front cylinder valves actually leaked it out before the back one that was struck.
Questions;
1) should I get some lapping compound and do each valve on this head?......by hand
2) my plan at this point is to replace that intake valve and its lifter and that pushrod......a nything else?
3) recommended places to get lifter and ARP bolts?
4) still use the 3 step torque procedure with the ARP's?
All I can think of now......thank s!!!!
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I went with studs on the side that I did the hg replacement on. Pass side still has the factory seal.
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I would take it to a machine shop and get a proper valve job. It may need valve guides as well.
I would do like Rich and use studs
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Yeah the pass side sucks......to much crap to remove!!!
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(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/4%20point%201%20engine%20pix/shopping_zpsb57b4c80.jpeg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/4%20point%201%20engine%20pix/shopping_zpsb57b4c80.jpeg.html)
An old timer turned me on to this stuff when I assembled my first Big Block in the eighties so Ive used it since on bolts that go into the water jacket
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I bet you will find the best price on ARPs on Amazon.com; Summit will price match. That is how I got the studs for my LS1. Summit was mad.
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If memory serves, this engine has a lifter tick. I'd be inspecting each lifter for abnormal wear.
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I totally agree with Brad pull each one at a time and make sure the go back in the same hole. Check the foot make sure it's not concave.
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Dan and I use an egg carton to keep the lifters in order...that way they go back in the same hole. :)
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Watching Shimys threads on this engine...this is what I would have done. I would have pulled the engine and set it on a stand. Both heads woulda been pulled...skimm ed...valve guides inspected and a valve job done with new seals. There's been a complaint of a lifter tick...so I woulda gone with a CC 212/212 cam...TA lifters...or the highest quality Steve can recommend. TA may even have a cam and lifter kit. Remove and clean the pan and the oil pick up and swap in a new stock style timing chain set. Install new exhaust studs. There's been no complaint of blowby...so I'd call the rings good. The stock nylon cam button would be long gone...so a roller button would be required
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$$$$$$ sounds great but not in the buget. I have thought about doing the timing chain as im this far in already.any advice there? I will check all lifters today.
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Chain is a good idea and the cam button like Brad mentioned
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydraulic-Lifter-Set-Fits-Some-1977-88-3-0L-3-2L-3-8L-4-1L-Buick-V6-Engines-/221699533911?hash=item339e526c57:g:fy4AAOSwepJXUt 1f&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydraulic-Lifter-Set-Fits-Some-1977-88-3-0L-3-2L-3-8L-4-1L-Buick-V6-Engines-/221699533911?hash=item339e526c57:g:fy4AAOSwepJXUt1f&vxp=mtr)
Are these good lifters? They say made in usa in the add.
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Ok, heres my problem. Im just good enough with tools that I can get myself into trouble ( current situation case in point) So I'm stuck here with what to do. Brads suggestions are right in line with my thoughts. If I'm this deep into it, I probably should replace the timing chain, and if I'm that far, should I do a cam and lifters also?? Never don't either before, never watched anyone else do it so I'd be on my own...current screw up has me concerned I may be over my head...or maybe not?? The tick has bothered me since I got the car and I assume this would solve that issue, if I do it right. Probably need to do the timing chain as I plan to do 2-3 dragracing weekend a year, and I'm sure it still has the stock set-up. Car has 66000 miles on it now.
What should I do?? Lets hear your thought guys!!! One thing though, please reply with what you would do IF YOU WERE ME, its easy to key board advise do it all, try to keep it real.
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Definately a timing set.
If you want a new cam and lifters I say, jump on. Maybe something a little more aggressive, 206/206.
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One thing is for sure. Us car guys always want more after the fact
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If it was me I'd rebuild the whole top end. Cheaper in the long run. I'd just hate to see you halfway do it then something else happens, you'll end up going through all this again.
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Roller cam, and roller cam button.
And Steve, I did reuse the same TTY bolts in my MCSS twice. It went 116mph on the bottle and still held together. I was going to use the engine as-is with the TT setup. I miss being poor(er)... I cared less and did more.
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Sorry, I did not know your MC was turbo's with three times the the normal combustion pressure of a stock n.a. engine. I guess your experience is pertinent after all
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The cam & lifters are pretty straight forward to install (soaking clean & again in oil eats up a couple days)
& replacing the Intake Gasket is not a big deal. Just make sure to get a step by step off GNTTYPE.org
(I think they have one? someone has one?) Lots of Goop on the ends is a must.
Pretty hard to mess up the install as long as you take your time & double check all your work. Add an extra $100-$200 for odds & ends you will need as the job goes on. A torque wrench is a must!
Shoot lots of Pics from the beginning to end because they really do help out.
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On that intake deal. I don't use the rubber pieces they include. I just lay a bead of gasket goop with some extra where the head, intake and block come together in the corner.
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Thanks guys!! I did the intake once already when I had a leak so I got that part. I am more worried about doing the cam/timing set. Never done it before and the whole process with break in has me worried I'll screw it up. I'll be doing a lot of reading!!
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Find someone local that has done cam swaps before...Ford, chevy or whatever
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Lots of lube on cam and lifters. Get it busted off and running and up to 2k rpm for the twenty minute break in. Have a pal or two to watch for leaks and other problems. Dump the oil and filter and run it. I like to drive it like I stole it but not every one wants to do that.
As Steve pointed out a buddy with previous experience is preferred to the ones who come just to drink your beer.
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Most of mine are just there to drink my beer or Captian. Some times It just helps to have a buddy there to say " looks right to me" :icon_lol:Got everything ordered to do the cam and timing set....took 4 different vendors to get it all. Now just gotta study up and wait for boxes to arrive. Im sure once I start ill be back here with questions. Thanks for the help guys :cheers: