IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense

Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: good2win22 on October 04 2014, 07:38:03 AM

Title: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 04 2014, 07:38:03 AM
Went back to little river last night.  the track is officially 1/8th mile only now.  Spoke with Kirk about it and he said that he'd been wanting to do it for a while and also mentioned that they will be putting up concrete barriers in place of the wood rails in the future. 

Made 4 passes in hopes of dialing in for the ford/buick shootout next weekend with the 2nd pass being the fastest ET. 

My observations.. .. Got this TE44 installed with a garret .63 exhaust.  This thing spools way quicker than the precision .63 that I was running previously and launched with way more boost than I am use to.  Tires broke free on the 1st and 3rd pass.  MT ET streets on the rear.  I am a novice at this drag racing thing but I am getting comfortable with the launch or at least I thought I was until this set up.  Attaching logs of the night.  My apologies for the long logs but I have yet to completely figure out the logger as far as it recording everything from the second I hit the f8 to the moment I save the log.

I definitely need to work the throttle on launch and I think I may have a TPS issue as it appeared to jump from part throttle to almost wide open throttle voltage while building boost at the lights.  Also still need to dial in the o2's in low gear

if you are wondering, stock unopened block with about 90k miles, 980 springs, new timing chain and gear, stock headers, 60# inj, 340 pump hot wire, power plate, PTE slic, 3k TC with lock up but I haven't locked it yet, Jake in Denton built the tranny.   93 with alky set at defaults from razor

Best pass of the night:
60  1.73 new personal best
1/8 7.85 new personal best
mph 86.24
any and all help is appreciated
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 04 2014, 08:41:48 AM
Jason...what size rear tire are you running? 26" or 28". Could pull some fuel in low gear...but I'm happy with what I see. Don't see anything bad happening in the first file. Good RPM drop on the shifts. Hang on...your battery voltage at WOT in 3rd gear is 12.5...so that needs to be addressed.

2nd run shows you leaving the line at 3667 RPM's and 13.9 lbs of boost...and about 4 seconds to spool. Might wanna try leaving the line with a little less boost/RPM's...so you don't overpower the track. The two runs you blew the tires off you left the line with a little over 20 lbs of boost.

Your 1/8th to 1/4 calculation is 12.3 at 107.


Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 04 2014, 09:10:08 AM
Not much mph for the 7.85, did you let off at the end of the run?
Do they give you a 330' time n mph?

how much boost are you launching at?
Have you tried different pressures in the tires to get a good looking patch? Pressure you are using?

Do you know what mr jake did to the trans? parts mods etc?
I wouldn't lock it unless jake said it would be ok.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 04 2014, 05:46:36 PM
Jason...what size rear tire are you running? 26" or 28". Could pull some fuel in low gear...but I'm happy with what I see. Don't see anything bad happening in the first file. Good RPM drop on the shifts. Hang on...your battery voltage at WOT in 3rd gear is 12.5...so that needs to be addressed.

2nd run shows you leaving the line at 3667 RPM's and 13.9 lbs of boost...and about 4 seconds to spool. Might wanna try leaving the line with a little less boost/RPM's...so you don't overpower the track. The two runs you blew the tires off you left the line with a little over 20 lbs of boost.

Your 1/8th to 1/4 calculation is 12.3 at 107.
Tires are 26 inches. 255/50 16s. I thought about dropping a few points on the low fuel but the temp OAT was dropping quickly. I didn't notice the voltage drop.  I did have a battery terminal issue on the last run. That may be the culprit but I'll check the alt as well. 


I gotta check the TPS for irregularities . I put the throttle where it would normally spool to about 2800 to 3 grand and the tach went through the roof.


My personal best in the quarter with an unknown turbo was exactly that 12.36 @ 107.79.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 04 2014, 06:00:36 PM
Not much mph for the 7.85, did you let off at the end of the run?
Do they give you a 330' time n mph?

how much boost are you launching at?
Have you tried different pressures in the tires to get a good looking patch? Pressure you are using?

Do you know what mr jake did to the trans? parts mods etc?
I wouldn't lock it unless jake said it would be ok.
I had I bit more fuel in the tank than I would like to see but I didn't let up


Best 330 was in time not mph. 5.0143
Boost at launch was what got me. I was hoping to launch at about 8 but lowest I left with the 2 runs that hooked was approx 14. 


I had 15 psi in the tires. Checked before each run and haven't had anyone to look at the patch for me.


As for the tranny, billet forward drum, billet server and anchor pin, heat treated sun shell and stator, new clutches, larger boost valve, new pump and my original valve body. 

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 04 2014, 06:06:07 PM
The 16" tire has a shorter sidewall...and won't flex as much. I'm not sure how much more boost you can jam through it with the stock heads...as they're a restriction. Full low gear timing came on in .5 seconds after launch...did you have Erics chip on aggressive mode?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 04 2014, 08:46:56 PM
I set low gear timing at 130 to put in in the aggressive mode. I'm going to leave the boost where it's at now and work the tune. I have a set of TA heads and a spare block. Just waiting for the wallet to fill up. Also have a lead on a short block that William Avila has built. He wants my block and crank as core. His short block has been studded both mains and heads but nothing billet, girdled or forged. Not certain I need the forged stuff for my goals but the billet mains and girdle would definitely give me peace of mind.  My TA heads are brand new second hand. Bowls have been worked but nothing else and they have never been installed on an engine. Springs are set up for a roller. I have the flow sheet with spring pressures and install height.  I have some 1.65 rockers too. Basically have everything to put it together but a cam and lifters. I will probably go to some 80# injectors too.


My goal is to have one 10 second time slip. Then I'll throw in some Whitesnake on the radio and cruise my teen years just like I always wanted too knowing I could pretty much smack down anything that wanted to run me on the street especially them damn mustangs
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 04 2014, 09:58:41 PM
With the short sidewall you might think about more pressure to get the middle up. Find a side street and lay down some marks and look at them. Do the marks look even? More to the middle? Too much pressure, let some out. More to the edges? Too little pressure add some. Look at the tires to make sure they are wearing evenly across the tread. A good 60' is needed to get he best run.

Trans sounds expensive but I bet it is worth it.

If it isn't knocking I'd keep adding boost/fuel til it does then back it off a bit.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 04 2014, 11:09:52 PM
With the short sidewall you might think about more pressure to get the middle up. Find a side street and lay down some marks and look at them. Do the marks look even? More to the middle? Too much pressure, let some out. More to the edges? Too little pressure add some. Look at the tires to make sure they are wearing evenly across the tread. A good 60' is needed to get he best run.

Trans sounds expensive but I bet it is worth it.

If it isn't knocking I'd keep adding boost/fuel til it does then back it off a bit.
I'll try and lay down some marks tomorrow and see how they look.  Jake cut me an awesome deal on the tranny.  He and I attended some of the same military schools and served in some of the same foreign countries. At different times of course.


If you ever look at his website, you may notice the red scroll that has business name inside it. It resembles a certain elite unit patch.  He's good people



Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 05 2014, 08:28:48 AM
I've not met him but i did use a lot of his advise when he use to post around the interwebz. Good you got a good deal.

As far as tires, it is like tuning different engines. Different cars/tires/engines like different things so you have to make adjustments based in your conditions/parameters.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 05 2014, 09:17:03 AM
I have a set of TA aluminum heads here...that were further ported by Nick Micale. I had every opportunity to bolt them on this short block back in July...and didn't...for a reason.

Dan and I did a test a year ago. On a Saturday we swapped a Champion race intake on my car. I always run the Champion stock appearing intake. I wanted to see what the car would do at the track with no other changes. My hunch was correct. Had a go at it the next morning at the track at the same boost setting I normally use...and it was a stone off the line.

The only 2 LU convertors that I'm aware of that can be locked at WOT is the Precision multidisc and the 9/11. The rest don't have enuf surface area. Dusty Bradford has forgotten more about convertors that most will ever learn. He's a good read.

A boat load of fast parts won't make your car fast. There's a ton of guys out there with 10 second parts running 12's. Two guys up here in the Toronto area with S2 cars are running 11's. Believe it.





Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 05 2014, 09:32:07 AM
Some guy wrote me a few weeks back telling me that he had put a set of aluminum heads on his car and needed to know the correct A/F ratio for the car.  I told him that had to be determined by tuning as there was no such thing as THE correct A/F as it depended upon a number of variables.  He did not believe me and told me so...before it was over, I found out that he had installed a set of GN1 heads on the car and the car was completely stock otherwise, turbo, etc.  I told him the car would be slower than it was stock due to the thermal inefficiency of aluminum with regard to combustion and the large ports vs a small turbo.  That really pissed him off.  After being told that everyone knew that aluminum heads would make these cars much faster and I damned sure did not know anything about them, I have not heard from him since....

I guess a vendor did a good job on him.

Another guy wrote me a few days ago about mufflers.  I told him  straight thru mufflers would be the best.  He then spent all afternoon telling me that the guy at the muffler shop told him that it would run slower with a straight thru muffler because cars needed back pressure to make power.  After about the fifth email, I told him not to write anymore because I was not qualified to work in a muffler shop.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 05 2014, 10:08:05 AM
Steve...here's a pic of me squaring off against a big tire car from earlier this year. High compression SBC...big cam...loose convertor...op en exhaust...big gears...blah blah blah. I'll give you one guess who got to the top of the track first. To head fake these guys even further...note the stock GN rims...and that's a 10.5 tire on the rear...clears the frame rails and fender lips.  :) Not one cool guy part on my car.  :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 05 2014, 10:48:27 AM
Long ago,  Jeremy (Nocooler) was running mid-elevens on a TE-44 in a peg leg car...he put some serious air in the bag on the passenger side to hook it up :D
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 05 2014, 10:52:15 AM
Long ago,  Jeremy (Nocooler) was running mid-elevens on a TE-44 in a peg leg car...he put some serious air in the bag on the passenger side to hook it up :D


I remember that. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 05 2014, 11:32:46 AM
.  :) Not one cool guy part on my car.  :)

I don't know, but I think T-Tops are pretty cool.

Im kinda a cheapskate. I use a crushed stock fpr. I keep buying the used stock ones for a LOT less than new. Now I've discovered thjs cool adjustable TT5.6 chip that came with the used 42lb injectors I bought. This is gonna be fun. Ive been reading over at the tt site. I cant wait til I find a used alky kit. And I really need to try that rjr spacer that hr doesn't think works. Such a wide new world of cool stuff.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 05 2014, 11:38:27 AM
If you're referring to the RJC Power Plate...beg, borrow, or steal to get one.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 05 2014, 12:16:17 PM
Steve...here's a pic of me squaring off against a big tire car from earlier this year. High compression SBC...big cam...loose convertor...op en exhaust...big gears...blah blah blah. I'll give you one guess who got to the top of the track first. To head fake these guys even further...note the stock GN rims...and that's a 10.5 tire on the rear...clears the frame rails and fender lips.  :) Not one cool guy part on my car.  :)

That car is too ugly to compete
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 05 2014, 03:17:29 PM
What to do... Twice now I've had a reply written and its been dumped.


I'll write more tomorrow....
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: nocooler on October 05 2014, 03:52:44 PM
Long ago,  Jeremy (Nocooler) was running mid-elevens on a TE-44 in a peg leg car...he put some serious air in the bag on the passenger side to hook it up :D


You can't go that fast with out a posi.......tha ts what everyone told me!

It was a TA49 too :)

Jason shoot for 94-95mph in the 1/8th that's where the turbo will be just about done. It'll take some fine tuning.

I'd put the PTE housing back on the turbo if you have a 3000rpm stall too!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 05 2014, 03:57:46 PM
If you're referring to the RJC Power Plate...beg, borrow, or steal to get one.

Oh, I have one, I just haven't gotten around to putting it on the car. I never had the trans strong enough to add more pah, but now it is and we will be adding more.

Quote
What to do... Twice now I've had a reply written and its been dumped.


I'll write more tomorrow....

Compose your stuff in word or notepad or something then copy and paste it into the message place. This way you dont lose it.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 05 2014, 04:26:58 PM
Or just copy it before you post so you can paste it back if you lose it while posting
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 05 2014, 05:42:20 PM
I had a 49 with a .83 Precision exhaust housing. Wish I still had it. I'd bolt it on this engine and squeeze it for all it's worth. :rock:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 05 2014, 06:03:23 PM
Jason...this is what I would do. I'd bump the boost up to 25 PSI...and leave high gear fueling where it's at. The slightly higher boost pressure will lower your 02's for you. Log 2 shows 795 going through the traps...so your high gear fueling should be fine...if the temperature is the same. Pull some low gear fuel out of it...and have at it. I'm curious to see if your MPH increases...or you "blow through" that unlocked convertor.

Be sure to address that voltage issue first.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 06 2014, 09:14:02 AM
Going to try to post again…
Nice kill of the SBC!
Cleaned the battery terminals and reconnected.  Getting a consistent 14.2-14.4 volts at the battery, alternator, and volt gauge at idle.  I understand that SM only displays voltage at the ECM.  Why the drop?  It’s not like I have 60 foot of wire from the alternator to the ECM…  Alternator on the fritz?  I guess I could pull it out and see what a load test says.
Laid down some rubber, looks like the optimum tire pressure for the most amount of rubber on the street is 17 psi.  Still need to look at tires after a few more launches to see if the left tire is wearing more than right tire, then consider bags/stabilizer bar for countering torque/twisting frame at launch…
What is a realistic 60 foot time to aim for? I know, the fastest I can get away with
What is a realistic 1/8 mile time/mph to shoot for? Again, the fastest without getting knock
How much boost have you guys put through an original engine without there being a failure?  I believe that I have the injectors and fuel pump to handle more boost but concerned with the head gaskets, heads being the choke point and efficiency of the  turbo.
I have a precision .63 exhaust housing for the turbo but some goober ported the waste gate hole way to low and puck won’t cover it.  Even tried and externally gated down pipe but had issues with the waste gate not opening at all.  So, I went back to the garret.  Having some issues with part throttle surge but just can’t bring myself to put a blow off valve on the car…  just something to “import” about it.
Not sure how to ask this… TA heads.  Better flowing, bigger valves, weigh less, and can be repaired easier than iron heads.  The thermal inefficiency of aluminum is the only con?  There has to be something else.  I can understand your car needing to be tuned after installing a set, you’re flowing more air with less resistance.
That’s about all I can come up with for now.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 10:34:29 AM
There may not be sixty ft of wire between the alternator and the ecm but there are one heck of a bunch of connections.

On the plus side there is the cable from the alternator to  battery positive and there appears to be a joint in it about one foot from the battery.  Then there is the connection from battery positive to the starter post.  Then a fusible link from the starter post to the bulkhead connector.  then a feed from the connector to the ignition switch.  A feed from the ignition switch to the fuse block ecm-ign fuse.  Then from the fuse to the ecm connectors and from the connectors to the ecm guts.

The ecm takes the input and goes A to D.  The scan tool then reads this digital conversion.  Ever notice the scan tool number jumps around quite a bit while the voltage at the alternator is varying only a little and not in sync with the scan tool display?

Of course we should not ignore the ground side of the equation.  The ecm goes to ground to the case and to the back of the head.  From the head to the turbo mounting bracket support and from there back to the battery terminal.

Look at your shop manual.   

We all know that grounds are a potential problem but, beyond that, I have found that the alternator case to the engine can be a problem-especially if someone has powdered coated the alternator or painted the mounting bracket.   Then the ignition switch often has a problem at the connector as shown on my site and it is not uncommon to find a bad contact at the ecm -ign fuse terminals or green stuff at the ecm connector that carries the feed.

Take your meter and start looking for voltage drops across each circuit feed.  For instance, put your meter on volts, put one probe on the alternator battery terminal and the other probe on the battery positive terminal.  Read the voltage on the meter.  If it is greater than 0.100 volts, then you have a problem in that part of the circuit.  Normally, it should be a few hundreths.

I find it more reliable to install a volt gauge and tap it into the feed going to the ecm somewhere between the  fuse and the ecm connector.  If the voltage is good there and I have improved my grounds, then I find something better to worry about.

Ah, thermal inefficiency.. ..

Engines run on heat and it takes heat to spool a turbo.  We all know that.

When we go to aluminum heads we lose some heat and thus power. Normally it takes about 1.0 more compression to get back to where we started from when running aluminum heads.   Now, we can turn the boost up a couple of pounds and get lost power back on top end but we still have a car that needs more converter to get it moving off the line.  That makes a car that is slushier to accelerate in normal driving.  For a race car, it does not matter unless you get caught by the lights while you are still trying to spool the car.

Those big ports that flow so much air?  Yep, they work great on the top end but they kill velocity and again make the car less responsive to the throttle and less fun to drive on the street...again we need to get the rpm up to a point where the car will respond to minor throttle signals so we go to a big converter and we can get the turbo to spool at heavy throttle input but the car is a pig for normal driving.

Yes, cars with ported iron heads have run nines, but they would have gone faster with bigger ports...or at least they should.  But they raise the question, Just when do aluminum heads become a real improvement? I am guessing lower tens, but, that is just a guess.

Are unported iron heads a bottleneck?  Sure, but with a small turbo with a free flowing intercooler and/or alky injection, I would not be surprised to see this bottleneck be a fact until the car was at mid elevens, or lower.  Put a big turbo on the car along with a bigger cam, and this bottleneck might be in the mid 12's.

It's all about the total combination.  Put a set of aluminum heads on a stock block with a stock turbo and you get instant pig recipe.  Nitrous time.

There are lots of fallacies floating around the net and many have been propagated by guys selling parts.  We were all told that the  first magic part we needed to buy was a 3" downpipe.  I sent Turbocajun a turbo to try on his car that was consistently running 11.0 at 120 mph because he was only using a TE-60 turbo and we all know you cannot go fast with something that small.  He could not use it because his wastegate was too small...seems he is using a stock downpipe.  Yet, we were told we needed one to run twelves. smh.   On alky, a lot of us have run mid elevens on a stock dp.


Oh, yeah, that reminds me, doesn't Jason sell a larger puck that is made to replace a stock puck that does not cover the wastegate hole?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on October 06 2014, 10:49:40 AM
http://rjcracing.com/product/exhaust-systems-2/flanges-weld-bungs/ (http://rjcracing.com/product/exhaust-systems-2/flanges-weld-bungs/)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 06 2014, 11:25:19 AM
Already have the larger puck and it still doesn't cover the hole.  I'll shoot a pick of it this evening.  I'm pretty sure it still has the red grease pencil markings on it.
What about cam selection then?  I have a stock set of heads that came off my spare engine. Could I, should I port those and work the bowls some? Would that kill the velocity by increasing the flow?  I can always throw more money at it like a bigger turbo, front mount intercooler, and use those aluminum heads and either deck the block or change pistons to up the compression. If the heads run cooler, why not take out the 160 thermostat and go with a 180 or higher.  I rarely see over 170 on the temp guage as it is now.  At least that way I could use the heater during the winter.  I'm more after the knowledge than throwing money at my problem.
I'll also post a pic of the very first quarter mile time slip.  It's taken over two years but I've come from the high 15's since purchasing the car to the low 12's.  This last second and a half that I'm chasing is killing my patience
 
what do you consider small and big turbos? 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Forzfed on October 06 2014, 11:49:47 AM
Not much mph for the 7.85, did you let off at the end of the run?
Do they give you a 330' time n mph?

how much boost are you launching at?
Have you tried different pressures in the tires to get a good looking patch? Pressure you are using?

Do you know what mr jake did to the trans? parts mods etc?
I wouldn't lock it unless jake said it would be ok.

I was thinking the same.  i ran a 7.7@89 mph with an unopen motor and stock turbo/intercooler.  With a TE-44 and unopen motor in my higher milage car I was running 7.7@94mph with a best of 116.6mph in the 1/4.  This was with 18' of timing and pump and alky.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 11:53:24 AM
I am guessing that a good pocket job, a little off the short side radius and port matching will give you about 90% of a full blown port job without any real loss.

Fastest I have ever seen on a stock cam is 10.4.  A mild cam will not hurt anything and it may help some as you get close to the tens.  Something along the lines of a 208 to 212 flat tappet makes little difference on the bottom end-particularly if you have a looser converter.

the biggest bottleneck on a stock engine is probably the intercooler if you put a larger turbo on it as there is a lot of pressure drop across it.  If you run alky injection, this becomes less of a factor but it starts showing up around mid elevens.  Dan (Grumpy) went 9.90's with a CAS V4 stock location which does not flow nearly as well as some of the newer ones like the PTE stock location and quite a few went into the nines on a stock and a half intercooler welded together along with the big neck mod.

Pushing air thru a restriction(s) is a lot easier than pulling it thru and that is the reasons forced aspiration is less sensitive to be cams, heads, etc than a n.a. engine.  I am not saying it does not help...just less crucial.

Your short times are good, I think, for the tires you are running.  At this point you are not losing much, if anything, to the tires.  Some people don't understand that hooking is one thing, but, having enough power to take advantage of the hook is another. It takes a lot of torque to pull better than a 1.6 short time.

I have noticed a lot of people trying to go fast that have engines, or drivetrains, that have problems but they keep buying bigger parts instead of working on the problems.  If you have low compression or 30% leak down, or a bum tranny, it will not respond to tuning or parts.

There is a big difference between the combustion chambers running cooling and the heads running cooler.  Those combustion chambers are cooler because the aluminum passed the heat straight thru to the water jackets instead of retaining it in the chamber.   170 degrees is about the temp that I have noticed the most power being made on the dyno.  I suspect we over think the cooling a bit.  If the car will hold 180 degrees on the highway in the summer time, that is probably plenty cool.

yeah, you can buy heads, pistons, cam, bigger turbo, front mount, etc., but, if you are still getting out run by guys with a lot less, it is probably not very satisfying.  Most people don't need that to run high tens, low elevens.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 02:19:05 PM
I think that your car is running pretty well for what you have.  I suspect that if you raise the boost to 26 psi and get the fueling trimmed, it would be in the elevens in the quarter.....I don't really see anything particularly wrong with it
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 06 2014, 02:22:44 PM
I have the PTE slic installed and I have ran an 89 mph in the 1/8th but it was clocked when I was running the 1/4 mile. 
 
I am gonna keep working the tune and my driving skills at launch.
what would be a better tire choice?  I have a set of 15x8s I could use instead of these 16 inch GTA's.  I know there are lot more choices in tires with the 15 inch wheel diameter.  Keep in mind that I haven't rolled the inner rear fender
 Haven't really had anyone mention anything more about how much boost I could run except for Brad and now you Steve.  I may dial in 25-26 pounds like ya'll suggested and go for broke this weekend at thunder valley.  I'm hoping to get there friday evening to make tech and a few test hits at this "new to me" track.  Thanks guys.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 06 2014, 02:33:53 PM
I'm also going to ring out the wires to the ecm and clean all connections. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 02:33:58 PM
after you turn the boost up...get on the road and do a few high gear stomps to make sure it is not leaner than about 750 on the top end.  I have run a bit leaner but I don't think it really gains much.

then check out first/second and try to lean it down to about the same range.


My experience is that boost beats timing every time so I don't mess with timing much.  Sometimes I may actually reduce it in top gear if I need to in able to run the boost.

A 275/60-15 generally fits on an 8" wheel if the back spacing is close to 4".  That's a 28" tire.  The longer patch will give you more bite than a slightly wider tire.  It also loads the turbo better and brings it up quicker.  I run Nittos because I don't go to the track anymore.  M/T's hook a bit better at the track but they wear out a lot quicker because the rubber compound is much softer.

Just remember that on the street, the speedometer will read about 8% slower than your actual speed unless you put a 27 tooth gear in the speedometer drive at the tranny
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 06 2014, 05:56:06 PM
I'd keep my eye open for a used pair of 28x9 slicks...as they have the same dimensions as a 275/60/15 drag radial. They fit on a stock GN rim and clear the frame rail and fender lip...as can bee seen by this idiot launching. :) I did a test one time. I removed the .63 Garret housing on a TA 49...and slapped on a Precision .83. With the same boost and tune I gained 3 mph. Leave Erics 3rd gear timing alone...and work on your low gear tuning. Put the boost to it and enuf 3rd gear fuel so it won't hurt itself.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Pyro6 on October 06 2014, 06:20:19 PM
One of your earlier questions abouty 60' time. My experience has been 1.60 plus/minus gets you 11.50 plus/minus in the 1/4. Pulled a random slip: 1.588 11.317.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 06:25:18 PM
and the old rule of thumb works pretty well.  One tenth in the short time results in 1.5 tenths in the quarter on an 11-12 second car
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 06 2014, 09:02:07 PM
I also have the original T rims. I believe they are 7 inches wide. Wonder what width would be better for that tire size?


Here's my first time slip and a pic of the precision .63 turbine housing.  Funny thing is, I am faster now in the 1/8 than I was in the 1/4! 


Sorry for all the red pookie.  That's from the install with the external wastegate. Not sure if all external waste gate pipes are the same but that one from GN1 was particularly lower than than my rjc down pipe and you can see that it wasn't even covering the hole completely.  Gotta love used parts...
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 06 2014, 09:12:35 PM
Here's the pics. Had to resize
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: nocooler on October 06 2014, 09:14:23 PM
275/60/15 MT drag radials work well on stock t-type wheels.

If you are going to tune by 02's watch the mph. Get a base line and then pull fuel until the car slows down then go back to the fastest setting.

I'm a big fan of running lean - rich is not safe.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 09:27:58 PM
I don't see Jason's large puck on his site...I think it was large enuf to cover such but, I may be wrong :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 06 2014, 09:34:13 PM
http://rjcracing.com/product/exhaust-systems-2/flanges-weld-bungs/ (http://rjcracing.com/product/exhaust-systems-2/flanges-weld-bungs/)

bottom of the page
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 06 2014, 11:13:18 PM
That puck is huge. Jason offered it after I bought my DP from him. It caught on the inside of the DP...so I trimmed some of the inside of the DP off with the die grinder so it would swing freely.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 07 2014, 01:43:58 PM
2 quick questions...  Tranny locked the converter right at 100 mph but didn't shift into 4th while testing yesterday evening.  Normal?  Should I be making these runs with tranny in 3rd gear D or overdrive D?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 07 2014, 02:11:30 PM
3rd
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 07 2014, 04:58:33 PM
When I used LU convertors I had Eric lock it for me via his chip. Think he locked it in the mid 80's.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: nocooler on October 07 2014, 05:27:50 PM
88 always worked well for me. It'd hit about 92-93mph and wouldn't drag the engine down to far.

Locking it any sooner would equal overboost on my car.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 07 2014, 10:41:13 PM
It caught me by surprise when it locked. Didn't expect it. Will be busy getting ready for the ford/buick shootout this weekend.  Hoping to get some runs at thunder valley before the actual event. Don't know how this shootout works, so I'll just be going with the flow. This will be the second track that I've ever been to and only about the 20th time that I've run at a drag strip. Do you guys still get nervous?


Sure would be nice to have Pyro6 there to coach me along...
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Shimy87 on October 07 2014, 10:53:08 PM
The more experienced guys probably wont call it nervous but im sure if it quits making your heart beat faster its time to find a new rush. Im new to the car racing but have raced sled for 25 years and its still a rush. You sound pretty hooked :rock:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 07 2014, 11:32:39 PM
I race pretty much every weekend from the first week of April till our Thanksgiving weekend...whic h is this coming weekend. I still get nervous/anxious/excited sitting in the staging lanes waiting to make my first run of the evening/day. Once they wave me in...it's all good. Lining up against the big tire Sportsman cars is what gets my pulse rate up. I'm happiest when I'm at the track...there's no other place I'd rather be. Sounds stupid...but it feels like home.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 08 2014, 09:50:30 PM
. Do you guys still get nervous?



I like to think of it as excited. And as above, if it isn't getting you excited its time for something else.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 08 2014, 11:59:55 PM
as soon as I pull the helmet on my pulse quickens
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on October 09 2014, 10:06:13 AM
as soon as I pull the helmet on my pulse quickens

Then it is probably too tight.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 09 2014, 10:07:41 AM
If a helmet can excite, I need to get me one.  And maybe one for my wife.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on October 09 2014, 10:11:47 AM
If a helmet can excite, I need to get me one.  And maybe one for my wife.

Quote of the Day!!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 09 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Any suggestions on what to take with me up to Thunder Valley?  I've got tools, jack, spare tires, tire tool, methanol jug, and spare plugs.  What else?
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 09 2014, 12:04:07 PM
I always bring extra fuses and my multi meter too
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 09 2014, 12:24:10 PM
I always bring extra fuses and my multi meter too
Fuses are in the glove box.  Hadn't thought of the multimeter.  I'll throw that in the tool bag.  Thanks!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Pyro6 on October 09 2014, 12:39:15 PM
It caught me by surprise when it locked. Didn't expect it. Will be busy getting ready for the ford/buick shootout this weekend.  Hoping to get some runs at thunder valley before the actual event. Don't know how this shootout works, so I'll just be going with the flow. This will be the second track that I've ever been to and only about the 20th time that I've run at a drag strip. Do you guys still get nervous?


Sure would be nice to have Pyro6 there to coach me along...
Get ready for alot of Fords and not many Buicks. Be prepared as you can and take one round at a time. I'd be there in a heartbeat if I could. I'm a phone call away. On the nervous side: sometimes when in the lanes nature seems to call. It always seems to be just about the point when I can't get outa the car. Than, before you know it, I've made the pass and think: why don't I have to go anymore?
The real rush is having everything go your way and winning.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 09 2014, 02:36:39 PM
Any suggestions on what to take with me up to Thunder Valley?  I've got tools, jack, spare tires, tire tool, methanol jug, and spare plugs.  What else?

Air tank, and pressure gauge. Any instructions for your power logger and scanmaster. Funny the info in them when you read through em a few times.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 09 2014, 03:13:33 PM
Any suggestions on what to take with me up to Thunder Valley?  I've got tools, jack, spare tires, tire tool, methanol jug, and spare plugs.  What else?

Air tank, and pressure gauge. Any instructions for your power logger and scanmaster. Funny the info in them when you read through em a few times.
I have a tank and pressure guage and they are loaded already.  Funny you mention the instructions.. . have a clipboard with all instructions that I've ever received for the Buick.  It rests in the rear passenger floor board and has saved me on numerous occasions.  Thanks!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on October 09 2014, 03:15:20 PM
gopro? we need to see :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 09 2014, 03:24:49 PM
gopro? we need to see :)
I don't have a go pro.but perhaps I can convince someone to shoot video with my phone
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 09 2014, 04:35:12 PM
Coil pack, ignition module, and 02 sensor if you have 'em.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on October 09 2014, 09:50:58 PM
I've got a spare set of wires if you want to stop at the shop and get them Jason.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 09 2014, 10:19:32 PM
I've got a spare set of wires if you want to stop at the shop and get them Jason.
I will stop by Charlie.


Have the original coil pack and module I can bring as a spare but not a spare O2 sensor. May pick one up on the way out tomorrow.


Car is loaded and ready to go. Just a few things to add and we'll be on our way tomorrow. Thanks for all the help!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 09 2014, 10:59:28 PM
Take plenty of pix. More than just me living vicariously, I'm sure of it.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on October 10 2014, 12:32:09 AM
Bring the brakes and brackets and I just put the wires in the truck so I can give them to you. :rock:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 10 2014, 12:57:25 AM
Have fun Jason!!!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Shimy87 on October 10 2014, 10:10:00 AM
Good luck  :rock:
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 10 2014, 12:32:52 PM
Have fun Jason and good luck! When you see the last yellow light it's time to go if it's green your to late.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Pyro6 on October 10 2014, 04:43:26 PM
Good Luck!!!!!!!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 11 2014, 09:30:58 AM
Thanks guys for the well wishes!  Made it to TV yesterday. Rained last night and it's currently spitting rain this morning. Temp is 48. Paid for the event and they say they can dry up the track. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 11 2014, 09:50:47 AM
go introduce yourself to some of the guys, stand around, bs, and wait for the track to dry.  Go meet William Avila and tell him I said that I expected better than this from his planning.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 11 2014, 11:31:16 AM
go introduce yourself to some of the guys, stand around, bs, and wait for the track to dry.  Go meet William Avila and tell him I said that I expected better than this from his planning.
Met him yesterday and hung out with him last night. We are parked next to each other in the pits. He ran a 10.20 off the trailer
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 11 2014, 05:30:18 PM
Hanging out with the guys is all part of the fun!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 12 2014, 02:15:15 PM
Sorry folks but Internet is down at the house due to the storms we had Friday. I'll load up pics of time slips and log when able.


Had a blast at the ford vs buick event. Went there to meet fellow buick folks and work on the tune of my car.  Made three passes in the qualifying and the one run in the eliminations. Not sure if I can repeat it but Made some new personal bests at the event.


60 ft. 1.621
1/8 ET 7.764

Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 12 2014, 02:29:54 PM
Well done
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 12 2014, 03:12:47 PM
Hooked it up!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 12 2014, 07:39:55 PM
Nice work Jason!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 12 2014, 09:03:09 PM
Found crack in the header on the drivers side
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 12 2014, 09:05:43 PM
Weld 'er up. Stop by your favorite exhaust shop and grab a pair of new studs and nuts.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 12 2014, 09:35:47 PM
Internet is back up and running at the house.  Here's a link from my friend Greg Nolan who shot video of me in the elimination.  This was the run 4 and the run that I got the 1.62 60 foot.  Time slips to follow

http://youtu.be/eVlgCJJyFx4 (http://youtu.be/eVlgCJJyFx4)
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 12 2014, 09:45:33 PM
Good job and great looking car I might add
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 12 2014, 09:49:28 PM
Dayum that looks like fun!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 12 2014, 10:06:01 PM
Time slip for the run in the elimination.  Pro street lights is not what they use at little river and it shows.  Also the log for that run.  It was 51 degrees and as you'll see got about 1.2 of timing retard in that run.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 12 2014, 11:05:22 PM
Looks like it fell on its face after the 1/8
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 13 2014, 05:38:11 AM
Jason, I had a look at the file...and the high gear RPM's are really struggling.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 13 2014, 06:24:27 AM
I couldn't agree more with the struggling/falling on its face in high gear.  Log is pretty much the same on all 4 runs with a small amount of timing retard when getting into 3rd. I was a bit nervous about taking out any more fuel on the tune. When the weather clears up. Going to see what the compression is on the old old girl.  Not sure what else to do about high gear tune since the knock is retarding the timing. It may be that's all she has. Gotta fix the header and the oil pan gasket leak.  Anyway, it may be time for an overhaul
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 13 2014, 06:49:40 AM
Jason...how old...or how many passes are on those valve springs?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 13 2014, 07:57:20 AM
Jason...how old...or how many passes are on those valve springs?
Close to 12k miles on the comp 980 springs. Maybe 25 passes and tons of playing on the street as well as testing
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 13 2014, 08:09:39 AM
From previous experience I found the 980's soften up pretty quick. This is what I would do...and let's see what the other guys think. I'd run a compression check...and if all's well...then I'd slap a set of 981's on it...and have at 'er. You'd have a coronary if you knew the spring pressure I run with this flat tappet cam. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 13 2014, 12:50:23 PM
Something else I would like to pick y'all's brains about.  I'm driving it down the track in 3rd and letting the tranny do the shifting. I've notice on the logs that I'll get up to 5600-5700 rpm when the tranny shifts 1-2. But when the tranny makes the 2-3 shift, it's not going up to about 5200. With the 1-2 shift it drops down to around 4700-4800 but with the 2-3 shift, it drops down to 4500-4600.  With the 1 to 1 gear in 3rd, is this too low of a drop of rpm? Am I not in the optimum rpm for making power?  Should I manual shift the car at a higher rpm?  Maybe work the governor to lighten it a bit and continue to let the tranny shift itself?


BTW, kudos to Steve Wood!  He was messaging with my new friend William Avila all day Saturday at the event.  All I can say is that I'm glad I don't have a wideband.   That seems to be a whole other education that I'm not ready for yet.  I just barely have a handle on the narrow band numbers
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 13 2014, 01:05:19 PM
If you're talking about RPM drop at the shift points at WOT...then I'm seeing a 700 drop on the 1-2 shift and 450ish on the 2-3. That cam is likely all in about 5500...and you crossed the line at 5200. If the engine had of revved out in 3rd...then you would have been in the ballpark for that cam around 5500. You can play with the RPM at the traps with tire height and locking the convertor.
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 13 2014, 02:22:40 PM
X2 on the 981s I ran them on my old flat tappet cam before I went to a roller cam, when I pulled the old cam out it looked great
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 13 2014, 02:59:32 PM
William is really a nice guy but he has multiple problems and progress is slow

Your car is typical on the shift points. Not the major problem at the moment, but it should help a little once it pulls in third.

William has the same problem. His car only gains about 200 rpm in third but he claims the springs test around 130 psi closed.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 13 2014, 03:01:14 PM
Shift rpm drop has a lot to do with the particular converter used
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 13 2014, 03:34:33 PM
Jason...one other thing. If you ever overboost an engine...while you're changing the headgaskets... change the valve springs. If you don't, I promise you the engine won't rev. Ask me how I know.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 13 2014, 07:11:52 PM
Did a compression test. Harbor freight compression tester. Numbers are a little low as I was a one man show and didn't wire open the throttle but all pretty close. Engine was warm.


1. 121
2. 127
3. 125
4. 123
5. 130
6. 123

Is it time for an overhaul or look at the springs?  Guess I could throw some air in the cylinders and see where it's coming out
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 13 2014, 07:29:24 PM
Jason...if you have breathers on the rockers...are you getting any oil coming out of them....blowby? How many miles on it?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 13 2014, 07:37:12 PM
I have breathers on both valve covers. No oil at all on the drivers side. The passenger side breather filter looks dirty but no liquid on it. I have an RJC PCV valve. Engine is original to car and has a touch over 93k miles.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 14 2014, 01:52:04 PM
Ordered the 981's from the online comp store.  $50.67 for the set and free shipping.  Oreilly's wanted 80.00 and vautozone 67.00.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on October 14 2014, 11:09:02 PM
Looks like it is running great other than the possibility of weak valve springs.  Change those and check for an improvement before investing in a new motor.

My car has around 93K miles on it and I keep putting the nuts to it... I'll fix it when it breaks.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 16 2014, 11:14:13 AM
Found this article in another forum.  Any thoughts on what this guy is saying?


1) Trap Speed will tell you about your HP to weight.
2) ET will tell you more about traction and your launch.

Of course ET is important to true drag racers, because the winner is the one that gets there first. However, we're not necessarily true drag racers in our attempt to get a power estimate. Honestly, ask 10 guys at the track "What kind of trap speed are you running?" and 8 out of 10 will answer with their ET - to one or two decimal places even. When you say, "No, no, I meant trap speed", they will fumble with a broad estimate with NO decimal places and might even have to pull a time slip out of their pocket to check. Try this question when you're at the track; it's almost funny.

THE DYNAMICS OF TRAP SPEED VS. ET

After running lots of quarter miles, it becomes clear that how well you do in the first 100 feet of the track is KEY to a good time. The last half of the track is KEY to a good speed.

Let's use an example of a stick-shift mini-pickup that on a perfect run, gets a timeslip of 19.50 seconds at 70.00 mph in the quarter.

Imagine that the light turns green, the truck moves two feet and the engine dies for three seconds. After restarting the engine, the driver proceeds to then complete a perfect pass. His time slip would show 22.50 seconds at 69.97 mph. The ET was 3.00 seconds high but the speed was almost unaffected.. why?? It's because his racetrack was 1318 feet long instead of 1320, and in those last two feet this truck usually gains an additional 0.03 mph. However, the clocks recorded the long time. My point? Much of a great ET is made by a great launch.

Now take this truck again, and the driver leaves right on the green light. However, he misses the 3-4 shift when he's at 1250 feet. He coasts for the last 70 feet while trying to find fourth gear. Now instead of accelerating another few mph in this final 70 feet of the track, he decelerates over this distance. His timeslip; 19.51 at 67.83 mph. Note how the et is almost perfect (only off by 0.01 second) but the trap speed is way off (over 2 mph slow)! On a good run, traveling that last 70 feet at an average of 69 mph, would have taken .692 seconds. At a 68 mph avg., that 70 feet takes .682 seconds. That's why his ET only varied by .01 seconds, yet the trap speed was 'way off'. My point here: the end of the track is critical to trap speed; shift rpm, missing a gear... these are the big players.

Hopefully these examples are clear. Neither of these runs are 'perfect' runs, it's just that one has an error at the start, one at the finish and the results are obvious. The start of the track is a big player in the ET, but a small player in the mph. The end of the track is a big player in the mph, but a small player the ET.

So for the casual T-Bricks member who wants to get a HP value, you don't have to buy slicks, or wish you had a limited slip differential. You don't really need to heat the tires in the waterbox, or launch with huge power braking. As long as people get their shift rpm right and don't miss a gear, even a rookie will get the appropriate trap speed for their vehicle.. but honing the perfect ET. requires being rude to a clutch, buying steeper gears or slicks.... hey, we're trying to make this recreational.

OPTIMIZING SPEED

If your goal is to get a good trap speed, what are your options? More power, of course - and less weight is obvious (but it will come out in the power calculations as no increase in power). Shift rpm chosen (auto or manual) and the time it takes you to shift (with a manual) are probably the most important tools you've got. Try different shift points to maximize your trap speed. Reduce rolling resistance by pumping up all tires to their rated pressure. Some people think that running lower pressure might help the traction in the rear, though. Of course more traction will help et, but with most street tires, running street tires within 5 psi of rated pressure will provide you with maximum traction in the first place.


REACTION TIME

The ET clocks don't start until you've actually moved around 8 inches (this is called the rollout)... so don't worry about trying to leave right on the green light. You could wait 5 seconds after the light turned green, and still get a 19.50 timeslip in our truck example above. Your timeslip does show a separate calculated time, the "Reaction Time", which in this case would be 5 seconds. That is the time from the light turning green until you rolled out of the starting zone. It's not a big thing for our discussion here.

THE LAUNCH

For the most part, a decrease in ET is accompanied by an increase in trap speed, but don't go overboard on the launch in your zest to rule the world. Just try to get smartly underway without spinning the tires much at all. Traction levels usually drop a solid 0.10 g when the tires start spinning.

THE HP FORMULA

Here's the formula to use to calculate HP:

Net HP = Weight in pounds* (Speed in MPH/228.4)^3

As an example, Car & Driver tested the 744 Turbo in their June 1990 issue. The car weighed 3,081 lb. without the driver.. the 'race weight' was 3,231 lb. The car ran a 15.7 second quarter at 86 mph. Let's plug it in to the formula:

HP = 3231 * (86/228.4)^3
HP = 172 Net

Volvo rated this at 162 Net. We come out a little high. Or does Volvo underrate a little? I'll say this - I've used this formula for years and that's how the 228.4 was honed - actual experience from cars that had actual power curves - and when I use it on Volvos it tends to always come out a few percent higher than the factory rating. This could simply be that Volvo underrates just a little.

Still, for such a simple formula and such a simple test, it's surprising how accurate this can be. And the best thing is - there's no arguing the numbers on a timeslip. There are always differences between a DynoJet and an Eddy Current Dyno, or G-Tech numbers, but every setup is done by someone different and subject to error. The quarter mile is arguably the best comparison a diversely located group like Turbobricks will ever have. The only real difference to argue about is the altitude of the track! You can compare ET and mph all day and have a good discussion.

HANDY RULE OF THUMB

Once you have a baseline, you should probably use a rule of thumb that each additional 6 HP will give you another mph. That's for a 3200 lb car that runs 88 mph. If you want the real formula for different weights or speeds, here it is:

HP for another mph above "X" speed: = Wt * (((X+1)^3-X^3) / (228.4^3))

For instance a 89 mph quarter vs. an 88 mph quarter for a 3200 lb car:

HP delta = 3200 * ((89^3-88^3) / 228.4^3))

HP delta = 6.3 HP

Once you're going 110 in the quarter, it would take an additional 10 HP to go 111 mph in the 3200 lb car.

60 FOOT TIME

This is the standard measurement tool to evaluate your launch. It's the time that it took you to travel the first 60 feet of the track. Naturally, patterns emerge again after looking at lots of runs and of course these correlate best to time, not mph. Typically, most everyone's 60' time will be between 14% and 16% of their quarter mile time. If it's under 13% or over 17%, this was not your best pass.

1/8 MILE VS. 1/4 MILE

After monitoring tons of good passes, patterns emerge. Typically, the mph at the quarter is around 1.26 times of the mph at the eighth, and the time at the quarter is around 1.55 times the time at the eighth. You can use these values if you only have a 1/8 mile track and get a real good idea of the theoretical 1/4 mile.

IS MY ET TO SPEED RATIO REASONABLE?

One fact of the quarter mile is; no matter how slow or fast your car is, the mph multiplied by the ET will pretty much be the same number every time. Before the NHRA changed the way that speed is measured in 1989, the product of speed and time was around 1400. Let's calculate some easy examples of this. A 14.00 et usually resulted in a trap speed very near 100 mph. A 10.00 et meant around 140 mph. A 200 mph pass usually takes around 7.00 seconds. These are still good rules of thumb to remember, but now the product is more like 1380 for us - The example from Car and Driver above comes out at 1350. (The reason for this shift is explained below). Remember, most everyone focuses on ET so much that they'll even optimize a car for slower mph if it gets them a better ET. (Rear end gearing is one way to do this). Those guys tend to have a product closer to 1300.

RESPECT MORE SPEED - A LOT. EVEN 3 MPH.

If you look at the formula again, you'll note how trap speed shows up as the cube root of power to weight. That's critical to understanding how fast one car is over another. Let's say your car does a 90 mph quarter and the guy who raced you in the other lane ran 71 mph. After the race, he wanders over to you to say the 'race was close'. Your reply: "I could have towed you and still smote you". (This might not be the best way to make friends, but yes, it is TRUE if the cars weigh the same.)

Do the math. (90/71) cubed is 2.04. Yes, the 90 mph car has 2.04 times the power to weight of the slower car. It has 2.04 times the acceleration of the slower car. It's just that the track is a fixed length, and in accelerating to higher speeds, you use up the track quicker. You accelerated to 90 in about 20% less time than he had to accelerate to 71, right?

Bottom line; Down where most of us run, a 3 mph difference between two cars is NOT a race. It was a clear win. There's a full 10% difference between these cars.

SOME MAGAZINES SHOW THE CONSTANT AS 230.5 OR 234.0. WHERE DID YOU GET 228.4?

Some people try to correct to different things. Like Gross HP instead of Net. But most commonly, these other constants that you'll see in magazines were originally published before 1989 when the NHRA changed their lights, and the 'new' journalist doesn't realize the formula should change accordingly. Here's what I mean; previous to 1989, there were three timing lights at the end of the track; one AT the end of the quarter mile, and one 66 feet before, and one 66 feet after. The middle light was used to calculate the et of the run, and the time to travel the 132 feet at the end of the track was used to calculate the trap speed. This gave the average speed at the end of the track, but you can see what this lead to. Most of the racers stayed on the gas for an additional 66 feet past the quarter to get a consistent speed to evaluate their setup. The track's 'shut down area' of course is a fixed length, but the pro racers were starting to hit 300 mph plus by the end. In an attempt to get these guys off the gas 66 feet earlier and 'make' the cars appear slower, the NHRA stopped using the last light around August of 1989. Today, the trap speed is calculated between the light at the quarter mile and the one 66 feet before. So any timeslip after 1989 is really giving the average speed 33 feet from the finish, which is pretty close to one percent slower than before. The old constant of 230.5 became 228.4 to compensate.

CORRECTING FOR ALTITUDE

If we were dealing with non-turbo cars, this would be easy and we'd publish a formula. But with pressurized cars, the correction factor for altitude depends on the boost you run.

For instance, Sea Level air pressure is 14.7 psi. If you go to a track in Boise, Idaho (2850 feet above sea level) the air pressure is now around 13.25 psi. That's 90.1% of sea level pressure. If the temperature doesn't change and you have an normally aspirated car, your power output will now be 90.1% of what it used to be, so I'd tell you to correct by multiplying your calculated HP by an extra 10.9% (1/.901, or 1.109).

However, (and this is the beauty of turbo cars!!) Let's say you were running 10 psi of boost in the first place. So at sea level, your car was really getting 24.7 psi (14.7 + 10). Now you leave the wastegate at 10 psi and race at Boise. Your manifold pressure is now 23.25 psi (13.25 + 10). Note that YOUR power isn't down as much.. it's down to 94.1% of what it is at sea level. So you should correct with an extra 6.2% (1/.941, or 1.062).

If you wish to calculate your own correction factor, here is a handy table of elevation (feet above sea level) vs. standard day atmospheric pressure (psi):

0 14.70
500 14.43
1000 14.18
1500 13.92
2000 13.67
2500 13.42
3000 13.17
3500 12.92
4000 12.69
4500 12.45
5000 12.23
5500 12.00
6000 11.78
6500 11.56
7000 11.34
7500 11.13
8000 10.91
8500 10.71
9000 10.51
9500 10.30
10000 10.11

Yes, the detail oriented will notice that I'm ignoring lots of small effects of higher pressure ratios in the compressor, lower density air across the intercooler and even the fact that there's less wind drag at higher altitudes, and they're right. However, the overall concepts above still hold true.

There's lots of discussion of 300, 400, even 450 HP on the Tubrobricks list. It would be great to see these power levels turn out to be true. Just keep in mind that an honest 300 Net HP in a 3200 lb Volvo (includes driver) will go just under 104 mph in the quarter. 400 HP would push it 114 mph, and 450 HP should propel the car to a trap speed of nearly 119 mph at Sea Level!


In terms of the ZO6, that makes for 19% less power at 5500' ASL (typical denver, there's a reason it's called the mile high city), so instead of 405 hp, they're making closer to 328 bhp.

If anyone else argues the point of how turbo cars are less affected by elevation than N/A cars without reading the exhausting long quote above, you are not only lazy... but an idiot as well.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 16 2014, 04:22:00 PM
far as I can see, it is all right.  Some of it is a bit more esoteric than useful I think, but, it makes you think and understand how things are related.

I don't believe he mentioned changes on 60' times and the relationship to the quarter mile time.  On a typical  11.5-12.0 Buick, a reduction in short time of 0.10 second will translate to about 0.15 sec reduction in the quarter mile.

On our cars,  a drop of 100 lbs will often gain us about 0.10 second in the quarter.  I did not use his formula to compare what a 3750 lb car/driver would benefit but that seems to be what we see...assuming, of course, that the car is running properly throughout the run.

We often say that a one pound increase in boost will give us 10 more hp and that is about 0.10 second in the quarter.  This is only good when comparing the same turbo to itself, of course, and it is probably not right as we get to big turbos.

Also, in general, the bigger the turbo, the less timing it likes in top gear.  I think this is due to a higher density of air molecules due to the higher efficiency at higher boost of the larger turbos.

Also, in my experience, cars spraying alky like less timing that cars running race gas.  It would not be hard to convince me that 18 degs of timing in top gear along with all the boost that can be run will be faster/quicker than cars run more timing and less boost.  I believe this is again related to colder/more dense charge.

most of us seem to gain 22-24 mph in the last half of the quarter above the 1/8th speed.  When I see a car picking up less than 22 mph, I wonder why.

There, I give some experience to go with the math :D

It is really important to understand how things work...and most people don't want to...they just wanta buy parts and go fast....
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 16 2014, 05:47:09 PM
A few things I've picked up on over the years.

MPH is indicative of HP.
When running the 1/4 shoot for a 25 mph pickup in the 2nd half.
Convertor slip percentage, flash stall, and RPM drop at the shift points should be required reading.
Leave Erics high gear timing on his default setting.
The guys running silly fast times spraying alky are using 18-20 timing.
If you're not tuning for low gear...then you're leaving a shitload on the table.
Putting your car on a diet is free HP.
If you can afford a couple hundred bucks of bling for your car...then you can afford Powerlogger.
Instructions are sent along with a product...for a reason.
You'll know you've done a decent launch when the cigarette lighter flys over your shoulder.
One word. Slicks.


Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Pyro6 on October 16 2014, 06:25:51 PM
A few things I've picked up on over the years.


You'll know you've done a decent launch when the cigarette lighter flys over your shoulder...... .




...........or your glove box empties it's contents on the passenger floor  :cheers:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Pyro6 on October 16 2014, 06:28:08 PM
Something else I would like to pick y'all's brains about.  I'm driving it down the track in 3rd and letting the tranny do the shifting. I've notice on the logs that I'll get up to 5600-5700 rpm when the tranny shifts 1-2. But when the tranny makes the 2-3 shift, it's not going up to about 5200. With the 1-2 shift it drops down to around 4700-4800 but with the 2-3 shift, it drops down to 4500-4600.  With the 1 to 1 gear in 3rd, is this too low of a drop of rpm? Am I not in the optimum rpm for making power?  Should I manual shift the car at a higher rpm?  Maybe work the governor to lighten it a bit and continue to let the tranny shift itself?


Just a thought, if you want to manual shift, another option: reverse manual valve body.

And, reaction time wins races.



Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 16 2014, 09:04:19 PM
what does it take to fit 10"x 26" slicks on ?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Shimy87 on October 16 2014, 09:46:00 PM
I have 275/40/17 and they are just over 10 and just under 26 and they fit. Just misses the frame and never touches the wheel well lip. And they are not rolled. Hope that helps
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 16 2014, 10:49:17 PM
I am a visual learner and really have a tough time reading something without falling asleep.  That being said, now that I've reached middle age, I seem to be reading more and not sleeping as much.


Being a na guy my whole life, it took me a bit to visualize the pressurized air working against the valve spring.  Anyway, got the 981's today and they have been installed. Even did some pretty work by blasting the valve covers and shooting some low gloss black paint on them. Then sanded the ridges for that cool guy look. 


Got her back together and fired up. Went and picked up my daughter from the bonfire so the ecm could learn. I did notice that the engine stops a lot quicker after turning the key off. Makes me think that those new springs are putting a little more pressure on the lifters not to mention holding the valves closed a bit better. 
It'll be next weekend before I can get back to little River to see how she does with the new springs.
You guys are really throwing out some good info about these Buicks and I am much obliged to all of you
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 16 2014, 11:17:18 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 16 2014, 11:24:07 PM
28x10.5's on the stock GN rims...clears the frame and lip.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 17 2014, 02:48:38 PM
I love that pic, so if I find a couple rims 7" with a 3 3/4 BS or 8" with a 4"BS I should be golden.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 17 2014, 04:32:16 PM
I love that pic, so if I find a couple rims 7" with a 3 3/4 BS or 8" with a 4"BS I should be golden.

I run aluminum rear drums...so you may need to play with shims.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 17 2014, 05:52:32 PM
I'm running aluminum drums as well. I measured the cast and aluminum drums and the aluminum drums are 1/8th inch wider at the hub than its cast counter part.

Looked a lot today online at different tires.  Gotta fill the wallet back up.  I have the original T rims and I have a pair of GTA look-a-likes that are 15x8's.  They have a set of 28x10.5 slicks on them with lots of tread left but I'm afraid to run them on the car.  Previous owner ran them on a car that put a pretty good gash on both of the insides right where the side wall meets the tread I bought them mainly for the rims and the tubes and gave 50 bucks for the pair.  Still looking for a used set of 28x9's with no luck....
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 17 2014, 06:29:08 PM
Here's a shot from last week. Taken by a local photographer
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 17 2014, 06:49:19 PM
Great looking car looks like it's leaving hard
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 17 2014, 08:03:57 PM
A few things I've picked up on over the years.

MPH is indicative of HP.
When running the 1/4 shoot for a 25 mph pickup in the 2nd half.
Convertor slip percentage, flash stall, and RPM drop at the shift points should be required reading.
Leave Erics high gear timing on his default setting.
The guys running silly fast times spraying alky are using 18-20 timing.
If you're not tuning for low gear...then you're leaving a shitload on the table.
Putting your car on a diet is free HP.
If you can afford a couple hundred bucks of bling for your car...then you can afford Powerlogger.
Instructions are sent along with a product...for a reason.
You'll know you've done a decent launch when the cigarette lighter flys over your shoulder.
One word. Slicks.




I wish I could afford a couple hunskies for bling so I could skip that and go powerlogger. I fully understand its benefit, which is Why I'm trying to get the direct scan up and working. And I think I need a new boost gauge. It only registers to about 7lbs boost and 7 in of vac and km sire I'm putting more than that in.

I bought the lightest car I could find. It weighs less than 3600 with me in as I drive it. Less when I empty the trunk.

Slicks are the way but some of the sticky drag radials will 60' just as quickly but don't last as long. Love me some mickey T 28x9.

Definitely read the instructions. Lots of gofast info in there or they wouldn't bother including them.

I know I need an Alky kit and I've dug out my otc2000. I hope to score a scan master one of these days.
Tuning this chip is gonna be fun.

I am liking this thread. I'm picking up a lot of info.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 17 2014, 09:22:58 PM
Cool pic!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 17 2014, 10:00:34 PM
Weight savings in my car:

Sound deadener removed
Radio/speaker delete-Replaced with TR Customs 2 gauge panel
Aluminum rear drums
Aluminum driveshaft
9 inch convertor
F Body rad swap
Front/rear aluminum bumper inserts
Ultra light wheels-9 lbs each
Mini starter
AC delete-Heater box retained
Metco billet aluminum rear LCA's
RJC pulleys
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 17 2014, 10:36:36 PM
Weight savings in my car:

Sound deadener removed
Radio/speaker delete-Replaced with TR Customs 2 gauge panel
Aluminum rear drums
Aluminum driveshaft
9 inch convertor
F Body rad swap
Front/rear aluminum bumper inserts
Ultra light wheels-9 lbs each
Mini starter
AC delete-Heater box retained
Metco billet aluminum rear LCA's
RJC pulleys


So, what does it weigh after this reduction program?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 17 2014, 10:44:43 PM
I'll let you know in the spring. There's a truck stop around the corner from our hole in the wall shop with scales. When we swap the trans I'll take it over and have it weighed. I'm curious myself.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 18 2014, 10:32:45 PM
with Eric's TT chips, is there a rule of thumb for fuel tuning with changing in temperatures?


Like 1 number up or down when temps change by let's say 5 degrees
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 19 2014, 07:17:51 AM
My answer would be...no. You have to get to 'know' your engine. I have a friend down in NC that was an ATR engineer. He sent a leather bound journal to me several years ago. I keep notes on temperature/humidity/fueling/timing/boost for each run. When I hit the track all I have to do is look at the thermometer/barometer I have with me...and I can make my adjustments and be pretty close. When I make an all out assault like last Sunday...and things are getting borderline...t hen I consult with Steve for final recommendation s.

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 21 2014, 09:21:18 AM
Been looking at the SD2 chip for some time and been thinking of going this route when I get my barn engine ready for install.  That engine is no where close to being ready.  Still need to decide on using the stock iron heads or the TA aluminum heads, pick a cam flat tappet or roller, decide on lifters, port the intake to match the gaskets, decide on using the 1.65 roller rockers or the stock ones. Only thing that I'm lacking is the wideband O2 sensor.  I understand that it will open up a whole new realm of tuning possibilities but feeling a little anxiety about my understanding and capability of tuning the thing. 
Do you guys have some suggestions on where I can go to read up on advanced tuning?  I've read eric's website and it says the chip comes with a base tune but I have no idea about spark and VE tables
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 21 2014, 09:49:53 AM
You will go no faster, I suspect, with an SD2 than you currently can with a regular chip unless you are trying to get into the nines and have a fuel management programming friend.  After all, more than one has edged into the nines on the same chip that you currently have.  I run a couple of the regular SD chips mainly because I did not want to have to buy a maf/translator and have no emissions testing to worry about.  I started with the Max Effort which is the predecessor to the SD back in the '90's.  Out of 20+ adjustments, I probably play with 5-6 of them.

You seem to be looking for magic parts to go faster.  Most of the parts you list are helpful when you reach mid-tens and beyond.   If that is your goal, then you better build a new engine that will handle that kinda output if you do not abuse it.  Be advised that magic parts may have capability but it is the combination and how you tune it that makes you go faster.

I would say it is time to quantify your aspirations and then it might be easier to make decisions and get some meaningful advice.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 21 2014, 01:59:21 PM
I'm not neccessarily looking for magic parts but more looking at maximizing the potential of all the parts.  Hence, the combination.  My previous question was intended only to gain knowledge about tuning with SD2 as it has capabilities that my current combination does not and requires knowledge that I do not have but would like to gain.  As with an earlier question about aluminum heads.  Hell, I don't know a thing about wideband but everyone tells me it's the way to go. Hadn't bought that yet.
 
I do plan on building another engine with the components to withstand the abuse of the occasional smack down the track at 10ish seconds and I have seen scoobum's thread on the cheap ass 10.5 second build.  So I do realize it can be done without "magic parts."
 
Do I think I could build this engine/combination on my own?  Yes I know I can but I have been the summa cum lauda of the school of hard knocks and at the age of 41 it's getting a bit old and expensive.   Am I an instant gratification kind of guy?  No.  I'm what I would call a do-er not a talker.  If I can do it and have the time, then I'll do it now not later and most likely exceed the expectations of any who is involved.  Also, I believe in taking time to do things right the first time or having to make time to do them right the second time.  This is why the barn engine is still in the barn.  I won't start a project unless I can finish it and as of this posting, I don't have all of the components figured out.  I don't know what I don't know but I can try and hopefully mitigate all the risk of breaking something.  Having worked on aircraft for most of my adult life, it has been my goal to make things reliable not neccessarily with all out performance in mind.  This is where I hope you guys can fill in what I don't know or direct me to where I can find out.
 
Have I bought cool guy parts?  I would have to say yes.  I call them "brand new second hand."  As I did not buy them new.  I have a set of TA street intimidator heads-used and not installed.  I have a set of TD 1.65 roller rockers-used and not installed.  I read a great deal about the 200-4R tranny being the weak point and spent my money on cool guy parts for that and it's all installed and in my car.  Shifts flawlessly now and I don't worry about it anymore.  Have several turbos in the barn-all used, some of which I can't even identify.  Have a champion fuel rail-used not installed.  Have a set of TA headers-used not installed but may be here in the near future cuz of the crack we found on the driver side stock header.
 
All that being said, it's the quest of bringing it all together as quickly as possible that drives me.  I don't want to end up like my father-in-law, who at the age of 65 has finally got his big block ford running in his 64 galaxy.  His engine was on the stand when I started dating his daughter 19 years ago.
 
I thought it was known that my goals were for a 10 second time slip and then relax cruising down the strip with my head banging to white snake blaring from the concert sound II.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 21 2014, 04:08:12 PM
At 73, I guess I better quit wasting my time, then
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 21 2014, 05:37:32 PM
At 73, I guess I better quit wasting my time, then
No disrespect meant at all Steve. I revel when meeting folks like you who are willing to share a lifetime of knowledge because I just want to rip all that info out of your heads.  I've seen it too many times when folks think they have some proprietary info and won't help out a fella who just wants to absorb everything. 


The other thing that bothers me is that you can write something on one of these forums and it can be taken completely out of context or the intent was not conveyed completely. I really prefer meeting folks in person.  My apologies if I offended. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 21 2014, 10:21:57 PM
It appears that the driver side header was previously repaired and the now has a crack over/alongside the weld.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 21 2014, 10:28:54 PM
Weld 'er up again. :rock:
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 22 2014, 10:54:18 PM
Yeah it's pretty common for them to crack along the weld.
That why I had my gusset welded so that the crack prone area could be accessed in the future.
It was a v shape piece welded to the tubes and the top of the log.
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 22 2014, 11:55:34 PM
Pics(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/23/ha8upaju.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/23/8e4a3ahu.jpg)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 23 2014, 12:10:03 AM
Great pic Larry.
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 23 2014, 12:36:59 AM
It wasn't easy :p around the steering shaft
First one was a pic of my thumb
Second was of the header bolt
Third time was a charm.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 23 2014, 07:38:23 AM
Thanks for the tip!  I welded up the crack yesterday and looking at this morning it appears that I missed a spot.  Going to look for some material to add a gusset today at work and weld it in this evening.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on October 23 2014, 10:32:22 AM
Putting a "blanket" between the primaries serves both as a way to strengthen the welded area and seal future cracks... because let us be honest: it was the 80s and build quality sucked.

I am still considering buying a cheap set of the China headers and reworking them with v-bands.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 23 2014, 10:52:03 AM
Putting a "blanket" between the primaries serves both as a way to strengthen the welded area and seal future cracks... because let us be honest: it was the 80s and build quality sucked.

I am still considering buying a cheap set of the China headers and reworking them with v-bands.

I've got a set of TA headers that I picked up second hand.  I could use those but I've been saving them for my upcoming engine build.  I'll post up some pics when I get finished welding it up.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 24 2014, 09:00:22 AM
My gusset didn't go so well.  Got the metal too hot and burned through the header.  Going to put on the TA headers for now and work on the stock headers as time permits
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 24 2014, 10:29:58 AM
Just make a patch to go over the whole section and weld it on.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 24 2014, 10:46:56 AM
Just make a patch to go over the whole section and weld it on.

That was my thoughts as well.  Want to be able to reach inside the header and clean up any weld through as well.  I've got a pretty decent pencil grinder.  Shouldn't be an issue
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 24 2014, 11:08:56 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. There is a huge restriction called the turbo wheel at the end of that pipe. A little weld isn't gonna be much compared to that.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 25 2014, 08:30:00 AM
I am more worried about something coming loose and messing up a turbine wheel. 


Got the headers changed out. Have to say that was the easiest header swap that I've ever done. Didn't make little River to check the valve spring swap.  It'll have to wait til next friday
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 27 2014, 10:44:08 AM
Made some 3rd gear pulls yesterday afternoon...  Question, why would boost drop by 2 pounds after the header swap?  Smoke test completed with no leaks, same boost controller and actuator.  RJC boost controller is bottomed out.  Just got the actuator a few months ago and don't have another HD actuator to swap out.  Only other change is the valve springs.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 27 2014, 10:52:06 AM
It flows better. Less restriction equals less pressure. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 27 2014, 11:54:18 AM
Long as you can adjust the boost to wherever you set it, it's not important...Di d the car pull better?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 27 2014, 11:59:26 AM
It flows better. Less restriction equals less pressure.
Bernoulli's principle strikes again.  Still doesn't make sense as the boost controller would only see pressure and would keep the actuator closed until it saw that pressure.
 
Makes me wonder if an increase in the volume of air followed by the velocity gained of less restrictive exhaust would nullify the gains of the the less restrictive exhaust in our turbo application... .
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 27 2014, 12:28:03 PM
Long as you can adjust the boost to wherever you set it, it's not important...Di d the car pull better?

The boost controller is bottomed out so no more adjustment there.  I may shorten the actuator rod a full turn and see what happens.
 
Seat of the pants.... it felt better. No KR but would like to get the boost back up before pulling more fuel
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 27 2014, 02:25:18 PM
It flows better. Less restriction equals less pressure.
Bernoulli's principle strikes again.  Still doesn't make sense as the boost controller would only see pressure and would keep the actuator closed until it saw that pressure.
 
Makes me wonder if an increase in the volume of air followed by the velocity gained of less restrictive exhaust would nullify the gains of the the less restrictive exhaust in our turbo application... .

I agree with you
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 27 2014, 02:28:58 PM
Long as you can adjust the boost to wherever you set it, it's not important...Di d the car pull better?

The boost controller is bottomed out so no more adjustment there.  I may shorten the actuator rod a full turn and see what happens.
 
Seat of the pants.... it felt better. No KR but would like to get the boost back up before pulling more fuel

I assume this is an HD actuator.  In that case, it does not sound right.

Open the controller and shim the spring a bit with a washer.  You should be able to obtain 28 psi, or so.  If that does not work, try wiring the wastegate arm closed and carefully see if the boost goes up as it should...be prepared to let off before it goes too high


We just went thru this with Shimy and finally found out his intake gasket had a big time leak, but that is a rare event and he had a lot of blowby which gave me the hint
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Shimy87 on October 27 2014, 04:17:35 PM
To get mine to work I had to set the arm about 1/4 inch pull to get on the pin and my boost controller is dam near maxed out. About a turn and a half is all I have left to run 25 lbs.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 27 2014, 10:16:47 PM
To get mine to work I had to set the arm about 1/4 inch pull to get on the pin and my boost controller is dam near maxed out. About a turn and a half is all I have left to run 25 lbs.


That was my original thought, adjusting the arm.  Then maybe I can back off on the boost controller as its a bit easier to adjust when things get warm down at the actuator
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 28 2014, 12:26:55 AM
Guiness Book Of World Records has me named as the only person on the planet that adjusts his boost pressure with the actuator rod. :rock:
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on October 28 2014, 01:27:24 AM
I like my external :p just turn the controller. I mounted it under the hood so I wouldn't be tempted to play with it.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on October 28 2014, 08:20:27 AM
X2 on the rod controlled boost. Much more steady. Harder to goof it up that way.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 28 2014, 10:58:35 AM
Dug around last night as I thought I had a newer HD actuator only not with the E trim bracket.  Found it.  Cut the bracket off the older HD actuator and welded it on the newer one.  Adjusted the arm to about 3/16 pull and renistalled.  Backed off on the boost controller 2 full turns.  Let you guys know this evening how she does as it was too late last night to go for a run.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on October 28 2014, 11:25:26 AM
I like doing it on the fly from the driver's seat through my MAF T Pro.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 28 2014, 09:16:17 PM
Well boys... We got boost!  Started at around 65 in overdrive, car down shifted and before I could look at the boost gauge/fuel pressure gauge and scan master, she locked the TC. That meant I was already over 100 because i believe that's where Eric sets it to lock up.  Definitely pulling better! 


Won't be able to make it to little River again this week.  Last home football game of the season.  Daughter is a freshman in the band and my son is in 7th grade band who is getting to play with the high school band at the game.  At least I'm here to attend.  Spent too many years across the big pond when they were younger
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 28 2014, 09:36:21 PM
good!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 28 2014, 10:59:57 PM
It's pulling in 3rd gear with a fresh set of valve springs? Nah...couldn't be. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 06 2014, 08:09:48 AM
Made a trip up to Hillsboro last weekend to meet up with TexasT and Charlief1.  On the drive up, I noticed what I would call harmonic vibration.  The vibration is subtle but noticeable on the fuel pressure guage that I have mounted on the hood.  The vibration comes and goes depending on the road conditions and is more noticeable on the smoother roads and is consistant.  Doesn't happen till above 50.  I've noticed it before but didn't think much of it but since this is my education thread, I thought I would throw it out.  Drive shaft balance?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on November 06 2014, 09:18:54 PM
 Most likely U joints. :O
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 07 2014, 11:00:32 PM
Made it to little River this evening. Made four passes. As usual, bet pass was the first. Couldn't get the tires to stick after that first run.  New personal bests for me for the 1/8th mile. If I did the math right, could be an 11.91 in the 1/4.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on November 07 2014, 11:07:15 PM
Hey...congrats! Equates to an 11.91 at 108. PL log for the run?
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on November 07 2014, 11:18:55 PM
Well done!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on November 07 2014, 11:30:31 PM
Jason...you're into axle snapping territory with that short time. Time for some Mosers.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 07 2014, 11:36:57 PM
Hey...congrats! Equates to an 11.91 at 108. PL log for the run?

Here's the log
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 07 2014, 11:38:22 PM
Jason...you're into axle snapping territory with that short time. Time for some Mosers.

Been thinking about that myself.  Was going to ask Santa for a rear dif cover.  Maybe I'll ask for the dif cover and axles
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on November 07 2014, 11:49:17 PM
Your battery voltage is scaring me...go over it with Steve. Slight KR in 2nd gear...but it went away. 02's are rich in low/high gear. There's more in it with tuning. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 08 2014, 05:42:02 AM
Your battery voltage is scaring me...go over it with Steve. Slight KR in 2nd gear...but it went away. 02's are rich in low/high gear. There's more in it with tuning. :)


KR was close to the shift and didn't rear its head on subsequent runs

Went through all grounds, cleaned and tightened.  Cleaned battery posts, all wires and terminal rings at starter and alternator.  Removed fuses and cleaned the fuse connectors and replaced fuses that looked aged.  Replaced alternator, replaced battery, repaired/cleaned both battery terminals. Getting 14.6 volts at the alternator, battery and back at the fuel pump hot wire when engine is cold.  Voltage drops to around 13.8 when things are at operating temps.  I'm at a loss.  I do have to run with headlights at this track as lighting is not optimal to run without.  About the only thing I haven't done is removed the insulation from the wiring to check for corrosion throughout the wires.  Volt booster from Caspers?  Alternator from powermaster?


Tuned for low gear fuel on last two runs as KR didn't show up on second run and ended up at 104 on the chip on the last run.  O2's were still in the 800-810 range.


How does overall fuel setting in the chip affect the low gear fuel?  On the few 3rd gear pulls that I've made on the highway, I'm getting into the 780's with the current setting at 144.  Dial back the alky?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 08 2014, 10:16:03 AM
I would dial back the gas...hardly ever see one of Eric's chips that needs so much fuel added to get to 144.  Usually, that means something else is wrong.

The following is a cut and paste from my site....note that Parameter 1 controls wide open throttle in all gears.  Parameter 2 trims first gear fueling using parameter 1 as the input.  In other words, if you have set fueling using both parameter 1 and 2, and then you add fuel in parameter 1 because you were lean on top end, then you just added fuel to first gear as well so you may have to go adjust parameter 2 downward if it is now rich.

A caution!  If you optimize for 1/8mile racing, you may be too lean on top end when you go to a 1/4 mile track...maybe

From site......

Parameter 1 controls wide open fueling in all four gears.

Parameter 2 controls wide open fueling in FIRST gear and it is a trim factor based off Parameter 1.  In other words you first set Parameter 1, then you look at your low gear fueling.  If you want to lean it down some to improve turbo spool and get a quicker launch from a standing start, you can.  If you have too much wheel spin from too much turbo spool, you could make it richer and cool down the charge a bit to slow down the spool a bit.  It really depends on how good the traction is and how much boost you are trying to leave on.

Parameter 3 is the timing in first and second.  Normally you can run more timing in first and second at the strip if you can hook the tires because there is less load on the engine and combustion chamber temps are not as high.  This can be a bit more dangerous on the street when the engine is hot because excess timing might cause detonation in that case where it may not on the strip because the engine is cooler.

Parameter 4 is timing for 3rd gear and 4 gear.  Again on the strip you can usually get by with additional timing unless you are hot lapping the car and the engine is not cooled down between runs.

As a rule, I am much more conservative on the street because engine conditions are usually not optimum-particularly if you have been driving in traffic or pounding on the car at boost multiple times.

Okay, so that is what you can do with your chip.  If you had the SD chip you could adjust over 20 different things but there are only a few that I ever touch and seldom at that once I have things where I want them.

So what about fuel pressure?  It's something that can be adjusted.  When you adjust fuel pressure you adjust every facet of fueling from idle to wide open throttle.  A change in fuel pressure affects flow by taking the square root of the (new fuel pressure divided by the old fuel pressure).  Therefore a change in fuel pressure is a relative small change in the actual delivery but it is more obvious at idle and low rpm than it is at higher rpms because the percentage of change compared to the fueling is larger due to the small amount of fuel used at idle and low rpm.

This is what I do, I set the fueling to 43 (TT chips) and I drive the car until it is fully warmed up and I have done some stop and go driving, then I stop and look at the O2s in gear idling.  If they are 780-800 and the car is idling well, I call it good and forget it.  Note that the O2s will change when you stop and the O2 sensor starts cooling down so your 780 might increase to 810 in a short period of time.  Don't be confused because this is a function of the stock o2 sensor not a change in fueling.

If, when I first stop, the o2s read something like 820, then I reduce the fuel pressure 1-2 psi and try it again, until my first readings upon stopping are in that 780-800 range.  Remember that the TT chips are open loop at idle so that first blm cell is not adjusting the fueling like the factory chip.  It does have some learning capability, however, so that is what I like to drive the car for a bit before beginning to play with the adjustments.

If everything is right, the O2s should be pretty stable wherever you set them and they should not be jumping around at idle due to the open loop feature.  That is why the idle is normally smoother and better.

When you come off idle, then the chip goes to closed loop and the o2s will jump around a lot more as the ecm takes charge.

In essence, you can use the fuel pressure to set up your idle and low speed blms but I only look at the idle O2s first when I stop and the sensor is good and hot.

Now, remember that the fuel pressure affects the entire fueling range so the wot fueling will be a little leaner than what Eric put into his default  if you reduced fuel pressure at idle with the HOSE OFF so you need to look at the wot fueling to see if it needs adjusting.  Normally, it will probably not be noticeable because the chip was probably a bit rich to begin with for safety's sake.   Be sure to put the hose back on the regulator before you drive it again!

Now, having done this, I go to the wide open throttle setting and start dialing it in.  This needs to be done at the top of third gear so it will approximate what you will see at the finish line.  At this point, I am leaving the timing alone (using the default in the chip) and have the boost set for whatever Eric said the chip was burned for.

If the chip was burned for 25 psi, I would not be surprised to find that the chip was giving plenty of fuel for that boost level and no timing retard was being shown on Powerlogger.  If I am leaving the boost at 25 which is generally a good level for the street when using alky, I start removing a bit of fuel-say no more than two numbers at a time and making a run after each adjustment until I see the slightest hint of timing retard.  I then add about 3% of fuel back to the wot throttle setting and call it good.  I prefer to hae some margin of error-particularly on a street car where ambient conditions can vary widely.  This is done with Position 1 in the chip.

Spraying Methanol at 100%, I would expect my oem O2s to be around 780 on the street.  When at the track, I might lower my fueling a bit and look for something around 750-760 mv but in all cases, I am not going to accept any timing retard on PowerLogger.

Once I am happy with third gear fueling at the top end, I would look at the O2s in first and second from a launch.  Again I want to remove fuel until I am on the verge of timing retard and then add 2-3% back for some margin of safety.  I would guess the O2s will be close to 750 mv but the main thing is NO TIMING RETARD.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 08 2014, 10:59:14 AM
I'll give it another shot at fuel pressure settings and let ya know.  Thanks Steve!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 08 2014, 11:28:45 AM
okay, electrical side.

It's not simple. 

First remember that the voltage going to the fuel pump is not necessarily the voltage getting to the ecm as there is no common path between the two-particularly if you are using a hot wire.

Second, remember that the ground side of the circuitry is just as important as the plus side.

Third, the ecm has a voltage regulator in it.  One of it's jobs is to stabilize voltage to the injectors so that it adjusts injector pulse-widths to compensate from varying voltages.  I forget the range it can handle but this mean that 12.9 going into the ecm may provide the same fueling as would 13.8 volts because the injector drivers are compensating.

Okay, the voltage that we see on the scantool is routed something like this-

Alternator to battery to starter post to fusible link to bulkhead connector to ignition switch to ecm-ign fuse to ecm A6 terminal and then inside the ecm to an A-D converter and the output back to the scan tool.  Factory shows 13.6 at A6 engine running   http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ecmwiring.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ecmwiring.htm)

I have seen significant voltage drops going from the alternator to battery Plus terminal due to a problem in that cable internally.  I never cut it open to see if there is a connection inside the jacket but I have found some with big drops between the alternator and the battery that had a hot spot in the cable about a foot from the battery...repl acing the cable fixed that and provided more voltage to the battery.

Then, it used to be common to find the battery cable to the starter post was loose.

I have heard of one or two that had corroded terminals in the bulkhead connector but I have not seen that myself.

Inside, it is quite common to find a drop at the ignition switch...easy to find, drop the column and wiggle the connectors at the switch while watching the scantool voltage.  If it jumps around, you have a problem at the switch.  see http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm)

Next in line is the fuse block...more than once, I have seen corroded terminals on the ecm-ign fuse with significant voltage loss under load.

Then we can find corrosion at the ecm terminals/connectors.

We can also have a problem internally the ecm and the A-D conversion, I think.  I have changed ecm's and seen a different voltage being displayed on the scantool following the ecm swap...go figure.

Now, let's consider the ground side.

First, the ground side of the alternator goes from the case to the mounting bracket to the engine.  I found out the hard way what happens if you powder coat the case....you get a big drop on the ground side and an attendant voltage loss.

On both sides of the equation, check your voltage drops.  Put one probe of your meter on the alternator case and the other probe on the bolt going into the battery negative terminal...vol tage on the meter should read in the hundredths of a volt.

(do the same from the bat terminal on the back of the alternator and the other probe on the bolt going into the positive terminal of the battery.  Again the voltage on the meter should be in the hundredths.)

Okay, we have the ground side of the alternator going to the engine (does not hurt to add a ground cable from the back of the alternator to the engine using the threaded hole provided for such on the back of the alternator) and from the engine via the negative battery cable that connects to the turbo support bracket bolt  back to battery negative post.  How many times have we found the battery negative cable laying there not even connected to the turbo bracket or the bolt is loose?  A jillion times, or more!  When this happens, all the grounding of the electrical system is being handled by that little wire going to the inner fender sheet metal.  Strangely, most will start and run without the main cable being connected to the engine.

Then looking at the end of the ground cable at the battery, we see the small wire going to the inner fender sheet metal.  This wire is important as the factory wiring uses the sheet metal as the primary ground-not the frame.  I usually clean the connection up and use a 10 ga wire for this ground or a small ground strap.

Now, we have a couple of bundles of ground wires from the ecm and a couple of other places that are connected to the back of the passenger side cylinder head.  Often we will find a broken off wire or loose/corroded crimped on terminals.  The easiest fix is to take them loose, check the connectors for condition and move them to an intake stud.  The better fix is to cut the terminals off, extend the wires (solder, not crimp) and attach them to a terminal box on the firewall with a ground strap back to the coil bracket mount on the engine.  Caspers sells a kit with all the stuff needed if you don't want to go to the electronics parts store.  He also sells a fusible link relocation kit that moves the links to the inner fender which is much nicer.

A ground strap from the firewall to the engine never hurts.

Now, we depend upon two things which are not very dependable.

First is the alternator.  Alternators should increase current output as the load increases in order to maintain voltage at a steady state.  The only way to check this is under load.  Most places that check alternators these days don't put them under load...New alternators are just about as likely to be bad as old ones, it seems.

Jump a voltmeter directly off the back of the alternator and run it into the car.  Turn the headlights on High and go make a wide open throttle run under full boost.  The voltage at top end should be reading at least 13.5 or better.  If it is not, your alternator is not doing the job..new or not.  I have seen quite a few that drop well into the 12's.  That means your fuel pump is going to be struggling to pump enough fuel.

When replacing alternators, I am not big on 200 amp alternators, etc.  Most of them are using imported parts and they may not work as advertised when properly tested plus we don't that kind of amperage.  I like the second generation CS-144's that are rated at 140 amps....better built that our 120's.  I would prefer, myself, to find an original at the junk yard due to the quality of the original parts.

From my site-

This unit was installed on the following cars:

1996-94 Buick Roadmaster 5.7L, 1996-93 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham (RWD) 5.7L, 1996-93 Chevrolet Caprice 4.3L& 5.7L, 1996-95 Chevrolet Impala 5.7L, 1995-92 Chevrolet Lumina APV Van 3.8L, 1995-92 Oldsmobile Silhouette 3.8L, and the 1995-92 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8L
This alternator was also installed on police cars, and fleet vehicles such as taxis where normal operation may include lots of non-moving use with heavy radio traffic.
 It is listed as a Lester no. 8112 which may be helpful at wrecking yards, or such places.



The second undependable part is the fuel pump....new, old, guaranteed, gold plated, or whatever.  It is imperative that you know absolutely that it is delivering the correct pressure at full boost, top end, of the run every time, all night long.  I have seen as many new ones that start dropping pressure when the pump gets hot as I have seen old ones that failed.  I got home a couple of years ago pushing the alky test button and running on alky on a pump with couple of thousand miles on it.  It's not uncommon at all.

Now, you can log fp on the PL with a sender screwed on the rail or you can use a good quality (not cheap) gauge on a hose on the windshield.  This seems to be one of the more accurate transducers   http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/wide_band_o2_files/WB_Pressure.htm (http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/wide_band_o2_files/WB_Pressure.htm)

I think Motorhead Mike was the first to discover this one years ago.  I have seen many other brands fail.


I am sure this is a lot more than you want to read but...I am getting old and I may not remember this stuff much longer...




Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 08 2014, 06:57:09 PM
Not sure if you've been told lately but I appreciate you Steve!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 08 2014, 08:10:10 PM
and, I should have mentioned that fuel pump ground in the tank is often iffy after all these years....
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on November 09 2014, 10:19:16 AM
Food for thot. The alky chip I received from Eric for this combination was so rich in low gear fuel...that pulling the full 20% of low gear fuel...only got the low gear 02's down to 780's.

If you had Eric burn your chip for your exact combination... and told him your max boost pressure was 25 lbs...then your fueling should be fine...or close to it...on the default setting for high gear fuel. I agree with Steve...adding that much high gear fuel...means there's something wrong.

I set my low gear fueling on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift points.

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 10 2014, 03:54:57 PM
Let's see if I can get all this stuff out there.
Chip was burned for a TA49 25 lbs boost with alky and I am now running a TE44
Fuel pump was a walbro.  Put in a racetronix pump along with sending unit which had AN fittings. -8 feed and -6 return.  Ran the bigger lines/inline fuel filter and ended up stripping out kirban's FPR.  Had another regulator from a dope deal I made for some champion fuel rails so I put it on and the pressure was set at 43 so I haven't touched it until yesterday.  The stock fuel rails are still on the engine.  Saving the champions for the engine build.  Pulled the vacuum line off the FPR yesterday and fuel pressure was sitting at a steady 46 psi.  Adjusted to 43 and with vacuum line back on pressure drops to 34ish. Reset the ECM, drove the car around town yesterday but was unable to get a good reading on the millivolts as it was jumping all over the place probably because I didn't get it hot enough.  BLM at idle was still at 128 after the around town run but I don't think I drove it around enough.  Pulled into the driveway and noticed fuel pressure was at 31ish. Popped the vacuum line and pressure was at 40.  Adjusted to 42ish, popped the vacuum line on.  Pressure was at 35ish but had to leave it. 
 
Drove the car to work this morning as it will be the last day of decent weather for a few days.  I can't get a "steady" O2 millivolt reading before it starts to jump around in gear at idle but it doesn't go any higher than 850s and no lower than 750s.  BLM at idle in park is now at 132. Seems to me that ECM is trying to richen at idle, should I turn down fuel pressure a bit to see if I can get BLM to 128?
 
Checked voltage at alternator output and + battery terminal, 0.04 volts with multimeter set at 20 volts.
Checked the voltage betweeen +battery terminal to the starter, 0.01
Not exactly sure where to probe between the 3 fusible links and the fuse block... help!
Haven't check the ignition switch.
Check the alternator case and the - battery terminal, 0.01 volts
The only ground that I haven't gotten cleaned is the firewall to the transmission mount bolt.  Otherwise, I have cleaned/removed paint and reinstalled grounds on the fender and fire wall.  No more powermaster, so that one is gone.  I did notice this morning that the blinkers were flashing a bit faster than normal.  Also, hot wire has ground clip on the relay.  No where can I find that it says to clip it to the tank or to the body.  Mine is currently clipped to the tank.
If I can't get the voltage drop figured out with shooting the wires.  I have another ECM but it will have to be modded for power logger.
Found 3 roadmasters at the salvage yard.  I'm off work tomorrow so I'm going to head over to see if the alternators are still there.
If I find one, does anyone have a part number for an overhaul kit for that alternator?
 
 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 10 2014, 05:21:43 PM
I suggested a junk yard CS-144 140 amp alternator because it would have quality parts in it and you want to rebuild it with Chinese stuff?  anyway  http://alternatorparts.com/ (http://alternatorparts.com/)

You need to figure out whether you have a fuel pressure regulator problem or a fuel gauge problem.  Fuel pressure should stay where it is set.

Something is screwy because the O2s should not move much at idle after the first run following a chip reset.  If I understand correctly if the chip is reset, or the settings are lost due to a voltage drop out, then the chip will be in a closed loop mode the first time it is started which means the o2 values will be bouncing around.  After that, the chip will be open loop at idle (altho it will still learn) and the O2's will be pretty steady.  Does the battery voltage read above ten volts while you are cranking the car?

The ground clip on the hot wire relay should be connected to sheet metal.  I make my own hot wires but I connect the ground on the relay to the sheet metal by the tank hanger straps.  I also run a ground from the tank to the same spot.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 10 2014, 09:53:23 PM
I was thinking of having a back up plan in case the junkyard alternator wasn't any good.  Are there not any US made alternator parts left?  Saw the alternator on fleebay and amazon, boy are they proud of it!

Perhaps I'm moving the fuel too fast with no time to cool down and the fuel is getting hot changing the specific gravity of the fuel thus making it less dense.  Besides voltage variances at the pump, that's all I can think about as to why the pressure changed.

Should I reset the chip and drive it around with idle in close loop before restarting and it goes to open loop?

I'll  check the firewall to tranny ground and install a separate ground as well as install a ground wire from the tank to the body and connect the ground from the fuel pump relay to the body.

BLM's at idle before this procedure was 119.  I was going with the +- 10 rule and now I want it to be exactly 128.  It's at 133 after the drive home from work this evening.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 10 2014, 10:20:32 PM
don't think you are moving the fuel too fast.  That would be a first.

Pretty sure the changing fuel pressure is either the regulator or the gauge
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on November 11 2014, 03:11:09 AM
If it were me I'd try another AFPR. Don't get hung up trying to get the BLM's to 128 at idle. MIne is at 118...engine purrs like a kitten...and has perfect throttle response. Drives like a stocker.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 11 2014, 10:35:27 AM
X2

Don't worry about the the blm not being 128 at this point.   118 is well within the correction range of the ecm and means it has been corrected.

If you are using one of those little gauges that screw on the end of the fuel rail to set the fuel pressure with, then there is a 70% chance that it is the problem.  those gauges are basically useless.

If you are using a quality pressure gauge on a hose, then I would suspect that it's about 70% the regulator.

If you can tap on the gauge and the pressure changes, then the gauge probably has some debris in it...

The O2's should be very steady at warmed up idle.  Be sure the scanmaster is showing the correct coolant temp.  If it does not show correctly and is way low, then the ecm will not go into closed  loop....As I said above, after the first start on a reset chip, the idle O2s should bounce around like the car is in closed loop but when you turn it off and restart it, the idle should be a modified open loop and be quite steady.   

Need to get it to do this correctly before doing much else.  O2's should be about 780-800 on a hot engine at idle...I can usually use this as an indicator and set the fuel pressure very close to 43 psi without even using a gauge.

Again, I ask what is the voltage on the scantool when you are cranking the engine to start it?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 11 2014, 07:32:23 PM
X2

Don't worry about the the blm not being 128 at this point.   118 is well within the correction range of the ecm and means it has been corrected.

If you are using one of those little gauges that screw on the end of the fuel rail to set the fuel pressure with, then there is a 70% chance that it is the problem.  those gauges are basically useless.

If you are using a quality pressure gauge on a hose, then I would suspect that it's about 70% the regulator.

If you can tap on the gauge and the pressure changes, then the gauge probably has some debris in it...

The O2's should be very steady at warmed up idle.  Be sure the scanmaster is showing the correct coolant temp.  If it does not show correctly and is way low, then the ecm will not go into closed  loop....As I said above, after the first start on a reset chip, the idle O2s should bounce around like the car is in closed loop but when you turn it off and restart it, the idle should be a modified open loop and be quite steady.   

Need to get it to do this correctly before doing much else.  O2's should be about 780-800 on a hot engine at idle...I can usually use this as an indicator and set the fuel pressure very close to 43 psi without even using a gauge.

Again, I ask what is the voltage on the scantool when you are cranking the engine to start it?
Made it to the salvage yard.  Found an alternator out of a roadmaster. $25 bucks.  Had it tested and then installed it.  Volts have yet to go below 14.2 at the alternator.  Volt meter showing same.  Scanmaster is bouncing between 13.9-13.6 Checked and cleaned the ground strap at the transmission to firewall.  Added a ground strap from the intake to the firewall.  Added a ground strap from the alternator case to the fender next to the fan relay.  Added a ground strap from the tank to the bottom of the trunk.  Voltage at hot wire is 13.8.  Had a .5 drop before adding the grounds and now the drop is .4 volts.

Voltage on scanmaster while starting the engine didn't go below 10.7.  Checked it about 5 different times to confirm.

I have an autometer fuel pressure guage mounted on the hood connected by a steel braided hose. Tapping on the gauge has no effect.  Reset the fuel pressure to 43, went for a drive with engine still in closed loop at idle.  Got back to the house, killed the engine and restarted so chip would go into open loop at idle.  Hoping to attach video, or at least a link to the video ,of O2's on the scanmaster while idling.  I would like to know if you consider the numbers to be steady after watching the video...  Here's the link:   http://youtu.be/jW4aqTZez20 (http://youtu.be/jW4aqTZez20)

Coolant temp is in the 160's on the scan master.  Scanmaster has a dot that flashes when in open loop and is steady bright when in closed loop.  It functions as it's suppose to at idle when water temp comes up and when after resetting the chip.

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 11 2014, 10:27:39 PM
99% of that looked as I would expect it.  I saw two or three blips where it fell out for some reason for a frame.

I don't think I would worry about them as long as the car is idling smoothly.  Somewhere, I posted Eric's programmed conditions but I think yours is okay at this point.  I always suggest ohming the coil packs when hot to see if they all read 11-13K ohms...if they don't you are more likely to notice a miss under boost at higher rpm.

Even tho the chip is in open loop at idle, it will still learn and make some adjustment to the fueling to ensure that the open loop is very close to what closed loop would provide as an average.

Have the BLMS moved any?

Damn, I would buy a dozen of those alternators at that price!  :)  Now, go out with the lights on and get on it to see if the bat volts are higher than they were before.  As I had said before, I think, rigging a meter to the back of the alternator and driving it at wot will show if the alternator is holding up as it should...you can also check the voltage on A6 the same way and see how it compares on your meter to what the scantool is showing.  I have seen more than one that would read a higher voltage on the meter than the scantool and I have seen the scantool change the reading when the ecm was swapped while the voltage going in was the same.  I don't get too upset as long as I know the pump is getting good voltage and there is good voltage going to the ecm even if it claims otherwise.

That alternator puts out a lot more current at low rpm than does the factory alt.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 11 2014, 10:33:10 PM
BLMs at idle are now at 133.


I'll check the voltage at the ecm and the coil packs tomorrow and report back.



Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 11 2014, 10:38:13 PM
Sounds like everything is pretty close...One less horse to flog
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 14 2014, 02:23:53 PM
Too cold for this Texas boy... haven't check the coils or ECM. 
 
I have been online looking at axles.  Moser part # A102808.  Cheapest I can find is 260 for the pair from Moser.  Anybody have another source?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 14 2014, 06:47:13 PM
too cold for me, too.

The posi in mine went out so I replaced it with a 30 spline Eaton unit and used 30 spline Mosers that I bought from someone that had bought them to install but never had...I guess look in all the usual places
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: nocooler on November 14 2014, 07:45:23 PM
Stock axles should live as long as you don't wheel hop the crap out of it.....

If you are going to drag race it a lot - look into c-clip eliminators, or have ford ends put on the housing. Disc brakes will also keep the axle from ejecting :)


Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on November 14 2014, 08:24:32 PM
If you decide to go 30 spline tell me before you do Jason. We can work out a trade with the axle I've got torn down and have all new bearings and shims to set it back up. :icon_smile:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on November 14 2014, 08:42:05 PM
The guys on the v8 site seem to like this place. He sells on eBay and from his place. He goes by monzaz on the forums I have seen him on. Seems to be quite knowledgeable.


http://jdrace.com/presta/index.php?id_category=12&controller=category (http://jdrace.com/presta/index.php?id_category=12&controller=category)

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on November 14 2014, 10:32:47 PM
I used to buy all my stock replacement axles from Superior Axle... but, they went under. Good value for money too. :(

Seems Moser (and maybe Strange and Yukon) are the only game in town now.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 15 2014, 07:25:20 AM
I'd like to go with the bigger 30 spline axle but eaton is proud of their posi unit.  Gotta save some dough before going that route. What do you have in mind for a trade Charlie?  Goal is for a 10 second street able car.  How's the noise with that eaton you have Steve? 


Doesn't make any sense building my engine without the supporting driveline and my driving technique isn't exactly repeatable at the lights. What about going the 9 inch route?  Thats a lot of cash too
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on November 15 2014, 07:55:09 AM
Auburn Pro Series and 28 spline Mosers here. Oh...and custom aluminum driveshaft...t hink it's 4 inch.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on November 15 2014, 07:53:47 PM
I'd like to go with the bigger 30 spline axle but eaton is proud of their posi unit.  Gotta save some dough before going that route. What do you have in mind for a trade Charlie? 
I've got the empty housing with gears and posi along with a full installation kit so you'd have all the parts you'd need and only need to buy the posi. You can find them on evilbay at a decent price. The other potion is to go with the 9" unit I've got. It's got 350 gears but a mini spool in it. The ears on the top of the housing were welded in wrong and it will need axles and brakes purchased.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 16 2014, 06:52:30 AM
Coil pack checked good.  Voltage at Ecm A6 is exactly like the fuel pump, .4 volt less than at the back of the alternator and it doesn't fluctuate as scan master would lead you to believe. No change at alternator with lights on.


Need to run volt meter to fuel pump and make a pull to see what volts are.  If that checks good, I'm done with worrying about voltage
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 16 2014, 10:12:51 AM
that would be my stance as well....the only thing might be to modify your spare ecm...which should be ready anyway....and see how, if at all, the out put is  changed on the scantool.

Okay, maybe not the only now that I am interested again....tap the meter into the injector feed and see it it stays steady..

4 tenths might be in the switch or the fuse terminals...I would "guess" that two tenths might be about as good as you could hope for but four tenths is not hurting anything with a good output from the alternator to begin with.

Underload, the quality of the connections becomes more apparent as the low current connections get a little more juice on them so maybe leave the meter on the ecm..take a reading under wot there and then off the alternator under the same conditions?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 16 2014, 01:23:54 PM
that would be my stance as well....the only thing might be to modify your spare ecm...which should be ready anyway....and see how, if at all, the out put is  changed on the scantool.

Okay, maybe not the only now that I am interested again....tap the meter into the injector feed and see it it stays steady..

4 tenths might be in the switch or the fuse terminals...I would "guess" that two tenths might be about as good as you could hope for but four tenths is not hurting anything with a good output from the alternator to begin with.

Underload, the quality of the connections becomes more apparent as the low current connections get a little more juice on them so maybe leave the meter on the ecm..take a reading under wot there and then off the alternator under the same conditions?
Am I not seeing it on the schematic?  I see A1 for the relay, then I see six separate wires for each injector. Or should I be looking at D on the fuel pump relay itself.  That looks like it comes from the fuse block
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 16 2014, 07:35:09 PM
Injectors are always hot. Ecm grounds them. Hot wire to them comes from the fuse which also feeds the pump relay
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 19 2014, 10:57:14 PM
Checked voltage at the fuse block for injectors.  .2 volt drop compared to the back of alternator.  Checked voltage at fuel pump relay, .3 volt drop. 


Still need to mod the spare ecm, swap the powerlogger and chip then check voltage readings.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 20 2014, 09:58:00 AM
so far it sounds okay to me...checking it under a load will show up any high resistance circuits that might look okay when not much current is being pulled...
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 20 2014, 10:35:16 AM
when you pull the ecm connectors, you might spray both the female and male connectors with some contact cleaner like DeoxIt D5 or similar
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 20 2014, 11:18:17 AM
when you pull the ecm connectors, you might spray both the female and male connectors with some contact cleaner like DeoxIt D5 or similar
will do
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 27 2014, 09:24:44 AM
Swapped ECM's yesterday afternoon.  Voltage on SM still bouncing around from 14.2ish - 13.8ish, sometimes lower than that.  Haven't completed a WOT pull to see if there is any change.  Drove the car to work Tuesday and Wednesday since weather has been nice.  BLM at idle was at 132 before the ECM swap.

Took a look back at the alky instructions and noticed that the control knob was set at 7 not at 6 as the instructions stated.  Turned the knob back to just above 6, man you would think someone put some locktite on that knob. 

Happy turkey day to all, I'll be eating ham!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on November 27 2014, 10:53:47 AM
I'll call later Jason. Watch TB.com lounge for a new member to join and say hi. It's gonna be an interesting Christmas and I'm not going to say anything else for now. :icon_fU:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 27 2014, 12:47:21 PM
If you compare voltages between a meter and a scan tool,  you will see the meter reads pretty steady while the scan tool shows a lot of variation. That's one of the reasons I take some of it with a grain of salt
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 27 2014, 01:30:25 PM
If you compare voltages between a meter and a scan tool,  you will see the meter reads pretty steady while the scan tool shows a lot of variation. That's one of the reasons I take some of it with a grain of salt
I'm almost at that point. Are you running a volt booster?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on November 27 2014, 02:10:58 PM
Nope... Screws up the alky curve. Only helps if the fuel pump is marginal
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on November 27 2014, 09:35:34 PM
I'll call later Jason. Watch TB.com lounge for a new member to join and say hi. It's gonna be an interesting Christmas and I'm not going to say anything else for now. :icon_fU:
What you talkin 'bout Willis?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on November 28 2014, 12:46:03 AM
Things don't always go like you plan Jason. I'll be at work until 5 tomorrow and have to work till 12 on Saturday. TTYS my friend. Talked to Gary today and Ray called me back but we'll chat soon. :cheers:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 03 2014, 01:34:12 PM
Made a few pulls in 3rd gear last Sunday evening.  O2's were in the 770's above 100 mph.


To recap:  adjusted fuel pressure to a tad under 43 psi.  Blm's at idle 132. O2's at 780ish, hot, in gear


Checked an ass load of electrical wires for voltage loss. Added grounds at intake to firewall, back of alternator to fender, and one at the tank to the trunk floor.


Replaced alternator with a junkyard score out of a buick roadmaster.


Cleaned all elctrical connections and fuse block with Deoxit D5(man is that stuff hard to find)


Swapped ECM's with my spare to include the power logger.


Removed all bulbs and head lights, cleaned all sockets


Adjusted alky control  to 6 on the dial instead of 7.


Now just need to get to the track to see what's happening at low gear
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 05 2014, 01:16:19 PM
Sitting at work twiddling my thumbs....  Playing with compression ratio calculator on the computer.  What are some dimensions of head gasket thickness you guys have used? Any problems?  Brands?  I believe stock had a compressed thickness of .060.  Cometic has the MLS available in several thicknesses.  Not certian of the TRW piston cc's either.  I have found several conflicting numbers for piston cc's for their .030 over piston.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on December 05 2014, 01:29:17 PM
I plan on trying RJC gaskets with the motor I have on the stand .035 compressed with the pistons .007 in the hole leaves me with .042 quench I hope to be close to 9:1 with the Diamond pistons I'm using.


My understanding is you do not want a minimum .040 quench (piston to head clearance)



 http://rjcracing.com/product/head-gasket/ (http://rjcracing.com/product/head-gasket/)

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 05 2014, 01:55:12 PM
I measured the piston to deck distance on my barn motor and it is .039 to .040.  So from what you're saying, I'm already at the minimum quench without the head gasket with my current piston sitting that low in the cylinder.  I'm getting in way deep for this motor build and it's enjoyable to learn all this stuff.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on December 05 2014, 02:16:07 PM
if your measurements are correct with a stock gasket you would have .099 quench something doesn't sound right. I am far from an expert but I do like to learn, compression height (piston to deck height) plus compressed gasket thickness equals quench.



Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 05 2014, 05:28:40 PM
Got a call from my friend at the dodge dealership.  Left work early to go see.  He wouldn't let me drive it.  Buyer is the owner of Bush's Chicken
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on December 05 2014, 06:45:42 PM
Cool, I saw a white one out at one of my big customers. I didn't know what it was but I did see the fender badge with 6.4L. Maybe it isn't the same, ill snap some pix next week.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on December 05 2014, 06:50:41 PM
if your measurements are correct with a stock gasket you would have .099 quench something doesn't sound right. I am far from an expert but I do like to learn, compression height (piston to deck height) plus compressed gasket thickness equals quench.




On a production engine the designer usually shoots for the piston to be in the hole to account for production variations, so the piston doesn't end up out of the hole and causing problems(at least this is what I have read). This could account for performance variations with seemingly identical cars.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 06 2014, 08:24:47 AM
if your measurements are correct with a stock gasket you would have .099 quench something doesn't sound right. I am far from an expert but I do like to learn, compression height (piston to deck height) plus compressed gasket thickness equals quench.
I just ran the numbers for a stock engine with .030 over bore and came out with 8.05. Here's the numbers I used.   If anyone thinks I have the wrong numbers let me know.


Bore 3.83
Stroke 3.4
Head cc 49
Piston cc 23
Head gasket diameter 3.86
Head gasket thickness .060


That seems to be in line with the stock specs of 8 to 1. 


Next question is how thin of a head gasket can you use and still have valve clearance and still have the intake seal?  I realize there are variables, especially if the heads and deck had to be milled for squareness.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on December 06 2014, 09:35:14 AM
Put some clay on the piston tops and bolt the heads on w/o a gasket. Put the pushrods and rockers in and turn it over with a breaker bar carefully. then pull it back off and measure the thickness of the clay. wont be exact due to the angles involved but it gets you where you know the valves wont hit the pistons.
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on December 06 2014, 12:49:06 PM
My understanding is    .040 is close to the minimum. My buddy recently  finished a motor the rods he got measure .005 longer than stock and after the block was square decked he was .005 outside the hole he runs stock felpro gaskets with no issue. The added compression really wakes it up. My goals are to have similar numbers with my pistons inside the hole.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on December 06 2014, 02:57:31 PM
My understanding is    .040 is close to the minimum. My buddy recently  finished a motor the rods he got measure .005 longer than stock and after the block was square decked he was .005 outside the hole he runs stock felpro gaskets with no issue. The added compression really wakes it up. My goals are to have similar numbers with my pistons inside the hole.

If we are talking stock Buick heads, they are open chamber and conventional quench is meaningless for the most part.  I don't remember what the champion aluminum heads look like, but the TA turbo heads have a closed chamber design that allows one to take advantage of quench.

Either way, compression is good-particularly on street driven cars.  I have been running in the vicinity of 9.5-1 with iron heads for more than 15 years.  If you have aluminum heads, it becomes mandatory to replace the heat lost due to the lousy thermal properties of AL when discussing combustion.

I coped this out of the archives of gnttype many years ago...gives you an idea of what it takes to accomplish a given compression ratio

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/compression_ratio_calculations.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/compression_ratio_calculations.htm)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 10 2014, 08:19:34 PM
Toying around on the barn motor this evening... How much wear on the timing cover where the cam button rides before the cover is junk?  I measured the outside depth of the groove but the wear is convex being less in the center of where the cam button rides.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on December 10 2014, 09:07:51 PM
 You can epoxy a thin piece of steel (1/8) over where the wear is after spot facing the area. It will keep the wear down, but you need to tear into the pump housing to see if it's damaged first.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 18 2014, 11:40:22 AM
Been playing with the secondhand  external wastegate I got last September.  Still won't control boost.  Took it apart and found the o-ring not sealing between the 2 halfs of the gate.  The leak is located on the boost side of the diaphragm not the vacuum side.  Question is, can I pookie it up with some high temp copper RTV or do I need another o-ring?  This is the 46mm gate from GN1.  I believe full throttle sells the same one.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on December 18 2014, 01:36:31 PM
o-ring
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 18 2014, 03:03:31 PM
The o-ring is on the outer diameter of the shaft.  In otherwords, the valve does not slide up and down on the o-ring.  The inside diameter where the valve moves up and down does not have any provisions for sealing.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on December 18 2014, 04:12:23 PM
guess you can always clean the rtv off, then
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 22 2014, 11:14:48 AM
Went back to the internally gated down pipe.  Everything back to normal and then the TPS took a shit.  Looking for a Delco
TPS now....  Going to check with highway stars
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on December 22 2014, 11:18:14 AM
I have an off brand tps from O'Reilly on our suburban, working well so far.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on December 23 2014, 11:34:12 AM
Picked up a BWD TPS from Oreilly's.  6 bucks cheaper then highway stars and no shipping costs
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on February 21 2015, 07:25:10 PM
Anybody know what this is and where I can get instructions?  Found it attached to an engine harness that I have.  Hoping it helps with setting the cam sensor but I can't tell if that's a caspers brand on the sticker or not.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on February 21 2015, 07:30:13 PM
http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=61_62_5_6_10&products_id=601 (http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=61_62_5_6_10&products_id=601)

There is a link there for a pdf sheet of instructions.

http://www.installationinstructions.com/102013.pdf (http://www.installationinstructions.com/102013.pdf)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on February 21 2015, 07:31:22 PM
Thanks Rich!  I was hoping it was a cam sensor tool. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on February 21 2015, 09:23:16 PM
Glad to help.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on February 21 2015, 10:51:01 PM
throw it away...it does nothing on our cars useful...it's from the old days before we understood how the tps worked
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on February 22 2015, 04:22:49 PM
throw it away...it does nothing on our cars useful...it's from the old days before we understood how the tps worked

He could always sell it on TB.COM :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on February 22 2015, 05:33:27 PM
throw it away...it does nothing on our cars useful...it's from the old days before we understood how the tps worked

He could always sell it on TB.COM :)


That's what I was thinking about doing
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on March 07 2015, 10:48:24 PM
New owner of the white T came over this morning and we installed a 6262.  I am super impressed with the 6262!  Took a photo op while they both were at the house
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on March 08 2015, 07:19:38 AM
The Precision CEA 6262 is the baddest street turbo on the planet...perio d. On 20 PSI with my old SMC alky kit it would run 11.5 at 120 on a 1.7x launch all day...with zero tuning. Throw boost and a tune at it...and all hell breaks loose. :rock:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on March 25 2015, 10:25:40 PM
What would some symptoms be that would lead to the replacement of the ECM?  I went to throw in the ecm from the ghost so we could get some data from a friends maroon limited.  I had never seen a TB reman ecm but his had one.  Car has 62k miles and runs like shit.  Already found some vacuum leaks and the MAF is bad.  Heck, one plug wire wasn't even connected to the spark plug... Starting with the spring cleaning
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on March 26 2015, 12:11:24 AM
several check engine light codes (51, 52, 53) no check engine lite, or a flickering check engine light
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on March 26 2015, 12:24:01 AM
Mine was smoke in the car then a no start.......
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on March 26 2015, 12:55:44 AM
Mine had what I thot was an engine miss. PL showed the TPS moving around rapidly. Changed the ECM...all was well.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on March 26 2015, 08:12:51 PM
Mine was smoke in the car then a no start.......

Once you let out the magic smoke, very few electrical devices work anymore.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on March 27 2015, 12:19:59 AM
Mine was smoke in the car then a no start.......

Once you let out the magic smoke, very few electrical devices work anymore.
Brings a whole new meaning to "smoke em if you got em", doesn't it. :rofl:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 11 2015, 02:52:06 PM
I've been approached to drive someone's car at the track that doesn't belong to me.  I told the fella that I'd have to think about it before giving him an answer.  All I can think about is more seat time at the track but I would hate for something to happen in a vehicle that doesn't belong to me.
 
What are some thoughts from the peanut gallery?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on May 11 2015, 03:35:36 PM
If the car's set up properly and is in good condition with all the right safety stuff, then make sure the owner understands that anything can happen on a track. That means that if you wreck, or the engine/tranny blow up, it's not your fault. If he's not OK with this then don't do it. You might want him to sign some sort of agreement just in case something happens so he won't hold you liable.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Pyro6 on May 11 2015, 08:40:57 PM
100% agree with Charlie. Definitely in writing.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on May 11 2015, 10:47:43 PM
I've flat out refused to drive a couple of other TR's at the track.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 12 2015, 08:13:44 AM
I'm thinking I'm going to politely decline.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on May 12 2015, 08:45:43 AM
Drive it like you stole it!
If it breaks I don't see how it is your fault as he asked you to "wring it out".
I guess it is easier to say no.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 12 2015, 11:52:05 AM
Drive it like you stole it!
If it breaks I don't see how it is your fault as he asked you to "wring it out".
I guess it is easier to say no.

That was my first thought....   You want me to drive your shit????  I'll drive it like a rental car!!!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 12 2015, 10:14:57 PM
Walk away.  No sense getting blamed for something that was not your fault but that is what always happens
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on May 12 2015, 10:21:55 PM
Have him pay you to run his car... even a dollar, and have a contract whereby he employed you for that purpose.

I've had instructors run my car at auto-x events... with me in the car of course.  As the saying goes: don't race anything that you cannot afford to push off a cliff.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 10 2015, 09:53:18 AM
Ok Steve... I need a little help with understanding numbers from the logger.  I don't have a file to upload. I can later though.
This problem has reared it's head again...
 
Allegedly, this is a classic symptom of a vacuum leak but the numbers don't add up in my head.  O2 millivolts reads in the 890's but BL still throws fuel to it sitting at 142 hot in drive.  Why does the ecm still think its lean?  What other variable is involved with the ecm in the calculation. 
 
I've checked every line from the vacuum block with a hand pump vacuum guage. Found some minor leaks but nothing huge and I fixed all the minor leaks. I've removed the valve springs, pressured up the intake side from the turbo, sprayed with soapy water and found nothing.  I've decked the exhaust manifolds, installed gaskets, smoked check the exhaust side and found nothing.  I changed the orings on both the input and return lines of the fuel rail and FPR.  Even changed orings on the injectors.  I've played with fuel pressure settings and seen changes in the other blm blocks that are consistant with more fuel and less fuel...  No cracks on either header....  I'm a bit flustered :icon_confused:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 10 2015, 07:13:00 PM
I'll assume it's a TT street chip burned for 18 lbs. The big question. Was it burned for your EXACT combination? There's numbers on it...and Eric can tell you what it was set up for. Just because it matches your injectors doesn't mean squat. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 10 2015, 08:29:31 PM
I'll assume it's a TT street chip burned for 18 lbs. The big question. Was it burned for your EXACT combination? There's numbers on it...and Eric can tell you what it was set up for. Just because it matches your injectors doesn't mean squat. :)



Chip is burned for this exact setup and chip and injectors came from him.  Yes there used but I sent the chip back to him and had it burned for this current setup. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 10 2015, 08:49:35 PM
It ain't the chip. Does it have an RJC PCV valve...cuz they can act like an air leak. Have you tried a new PCV valve? Is everything set correctly in the Translator? Intake gasket okay?. For shits and giggles I'd remove the EGR and use a block off plate.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 10 2015, 09:02:41 PM
Is this at idle?

The maf is giving you the correct flow numbers for idle?

There are no leaks around the egr valve base and it is sealed (diaphragm wise and plunger) at idle as it should be
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 10 2015, 11:39:29 PM
Is this at idle?

The maf is giving you the correct flow numbers for idle?

There are no leaks around the egr valve base and it is sealed (diaphragm wise and plunger) at idle as it should be
Yes this is at idle.  MAF is reading 4. I have a translator with an LT1 MAF.  EGR is blocked off and sealed up tight.  Yes I have an RJC PCV and I have a stock one I could swap in. 


wonder if I have an intermittent translator....
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 10 2015, 11:53:03 PM
if it reads 4, then the ecm is getting the correct data to set the fueling with.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 11 2015, 02:04:31 PM
One of the common problems I have seen is a fuel pressure gauge that is not reading properly.  Another one is the use of a three wire O2 sensor that does not fail properly and give a trouble code.  Without a wb to back up the O2, sometimes it's hard to see that it's bad.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 12 2015, 01:26:00 PM
Played with the translator settings a bit yesterday and had some interesting results.  Going to grab another O2 sensor this evening and see what happens before posting the results...  Currently have a stock one wire Denso installed and I have another AC one sitting in the box on the shelf.
Texas Buick thing is tomorrow at Little river, so I may a bit late on posting up.  Not going to run the car at the track tomorrow unless I gain a little more confidence in the numbers. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 12 2015, 07:04:21 PM
Is this at idle?

The maf is giving you the correct flow numbers for idle?

There are no leaks around the egr valve base and it is sealed (diaphragm wise and plunger) at idle as it should be
Yes this is at idle.  MAF is reading 4. I have a translator with an LT1 MAF.  EGR is blocked off and sealed up tight.  Yes I have an RJC PCV and I have a stock one I could swap in. 


wonder if I have an intermittent translator....

Jason...pull the RJC valve out and pop a stocker in. I've seen BLM counts go through the roof with the RJC valve. My car reads 128 with the RJC valve...and 118 with the stocker.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 13 2015, 06:37:04 AM
Installed the AC O2 sensor and all is well. Actually, better than well. BLM at idle is now 126 while O2's at 790ish. All other untouchable BLM cells at 118.  Going to just tweak the fuel pressure a bit to see if I can get the o2's a tad closer to 780. 





Makes me wonder if I haven't been fighting with an intermittent O2 sensor this whole time....  Oh and as for the translator....  not going to put those funky results up seeing how the AC sensor appears to have remedied things. Thanks for the help fellas!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 13 2015, 07:32:05 AM
I've wiped a couple of 02 sensors in my car over the years. I noticed the CC's would get slower. Left me stranded twice. 02 sensors are cheap...and I now replace it in the spring and in the middle of the season. Glad all's well. Now get out and make a balls out default setting pass...and get tuning! :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 13 2015, 10:05:43 AM
glad it was easy and cheap.  Normally,  Denso is about as reliable as they come.  Brad is spot on about the cross counts.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 13 2015, 11:30:30 AM
I did notice the cross counts getting slower but didn't put too much into it.


No tires yet to make an all out pass.  Texas Nats this afternoon. May just put it in the car show and help others. My friend William is coming down from Oklahoma to make some passes.  So I'm gonna be helping him and I'll be picking up a brand new second hand alky kit with 3 bar.  Then I can install Brad's old 60s and alky chip.


 Also get to see Rich as well! Maybe even Charlie!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on June 13 2015, 04:23:05 PM

 Also get to see Rich as well! Maybe even Charlie!

Three of you in one spot-yikes!

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 13 2015, 07:57:15 PM
Well turnout at the Texas Nats was not that great.  About 1/3rd of what was there last year.  Rich was there along with some other diehards buick guys but Charlie was a no show.  I didn't run my car but instead entered it in the car show and as luck would have it, there where only three cars that entered.  So all 3 of us went home with a trophy and $20 bucks.


Since this is my education thread...  Big lesson learned today.... Narrow band tuning techniques don't work on a chip that is burned for wide band tuning.  Also, bring instructions if you would like me to help you tune your car.  And another thing... Narrow band tuning is way less complicated than having eight adjustable parameters that you don't understand how they interact with each other
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 13 2015, 09:23:29 PM
Car looks good!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on June 14 2015, 01:22:23 AM
Sorry Jason, but I had a service call on 2 vehicles, and then went fishing. :rock: Didn't make a lot of money but caught quite a few fish and had some fun so it's all good. :cheers:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 14 2015, 06:46:19 AM
Sorry Jason, but I had a service call on 2 vehicles, and then went fishing. :rock: Didn't make a lot of money but caught quite a few fish and had some fun so it's all good. :cheers:


You didn't miss much.  Track was slick and the multiple reschedules didn't help with turnout. Only 10 cars in the brackets for all classes
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 14 2015, 08:17:27 AM
glad it was easy and cheap.  Normally,  Denso is about as reliable as they come.  Brad is spot on about the cross counts.

Mite be coincidence... but AC's were the ones that went south on me. I run strictly Densos now...seem to hold up to the race gas pretty well. Got a good supply of 'em...and keep one in the glovebox with the wrench to change it...just in case. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 14 2015, 10:30:28 AM
glad it was easy and cheap.  Normally,  Denso is about as reliable as they come.  Brad is spot on about the cross counts.

Mite be coincidence... but AC's were the ones that went south on me. I run strictly Densos now...seem to hold up to the race gas pretty well. Got a good supply of 'em...and keep one in the glovebox with the wrench to change it...just in case. :)


That was the first denso to ever go bad for me in my short time with these buicks.  Now I have no spares. Going to order a couple this week.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 14 2015, 10:37:40 AM
New question for you alky guys...  Picked up Julio's kit yesterday from another board member that was purchased new in 2013 at bowling green but never installed.  Still in the box all wrapped up in bubble wrap.  Question I have is should I be worried about the pump?  I've installed two of his kits already and if memory serves, there is some liquid in the pump when you take the caps off to install the fittings. I also remember reading something about the pump life being 2-3 years maybe less if the fluid is not circulated often.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 14 2015, 11:04:04 AM
I would think the pump is fine.

Could you elaborate on what you don't understand about the parameters.  I did a lot of writing here  http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/Scantool_Readings.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/Scantool_Readings.htm) trying to explain how stuff works but I will be happy to try answer any questions you have.

The first rule of tuning is to understand how things work before making adjustments and the first thing to do is to read the instructions before you actually make changes.  Eric writes excellent instructions but Billy does not believe in reading them. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 14 2015, 02:17:25 PM
I bought one of Julios alky kits from a local that had been sitting around in the box for awhile. Dan and I installed it in the spring of 2014 and it worked just fine.

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 14 2015, 03:04:01 PM
I would think the pump is fine.

Could you elaborate on what you don't understand about the parameters.  I did a lot of writing here  http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/Scantool_Readings.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/Scantool_Readings.htm) trying to explain how stuff works but I will be happy to try answer any questions you have.

The first rule of tuning is to understand how things work before making adjustments and the first thing to do is to read the instructions before you actually make changes.  Eric writes excellent instructions but Billy does not believe in reading them.


Steve,  I've never had a reason to read the wideband stuff.  Personally, I feel these cars are fast enough for me without the use of the wideband setup and I haven't been convinced otherwise that I would need it. 


As for understanding the parameters, billy pulled out a laminated sheet of the 6.1 adjustable parameters.  The first block was 109 and the next block over was like 105.  I thought to myself, "why has he taken so much fuel out?"  Not realizing that it actually meant 10.9 and 10.5 which would be a somewhat rich setting for wideband.  At first he tells me it's rich, so I say pull some fuel out and to me that would mean lowering that number on the overall WOT fuel block and then taking the same out of the low gear fuel.  I haven't researched it in depth yet but I believe those first two blocks are the target a/f that the chip is trying to reach with the readings from the wideband for high gear and low gear.  After he talked with you is when the lightbulb went off and I kind of understood the numbers a little better.  The thing that gets me is that he didn't understand it either and it's his car with this setup.  If I had that shit on my car you can bet a years salary that I would know how it works.


I think I have a pretty decent grasp on what all the parameters are used for and what they mean.  Sometimes I get confused on how some are suppose to correlate with each as with those strange readings from the suspect O2 sensor I just recently went through. 


My problem with billy is that I never get a chance to see where the car is at when at an idle.  Are all the basic things set up properly before he goes out trying to tune.  I see a log of a run at the track and that's it.  Kind of feel out of place to ask him, " hey dude is your TPS set right? What's the fuel pressure at line off?  What are the idle blm's with it hot in drive?  Let's see what the IAC is doing at idle when it's hot and in park?  What's the MAF reading at idle and at WOT?  Have you made some 3rd gear pulls to see where the O2's are at?"


I actually printed out your scan tool readings page when I bought my first scanmaster.  Took it to work and read it a few times. Even kept it in the car after installing the scanmaster for quick reference.   I still have it sitting up with the rest of my buick paperwork I've collected over the few years that I've been playing with these cars.  A million thanks for writing that stuff and everything else that goes unseen!

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 14 2015, 04:34:12 PM
I spent hours teaching Billy how to adjust his chip when he was running it at the Oklahoma meet but it looks like I wasted my time as it seems to have gone in one ear and out the other.  the problem as I said is that he thinks someone else will set it for him and he just wants to drive it.  Alky injection is the only reason his engine is still together.

Billy's car does not run on top end like it should above 5000 rpm.  He says it has ported heads but I wonder.  Not sure what ic he has but his cam should make some real power with that turbo above 5000.  The new valve springs barely made a difference.  His boost control is bad as well. 

Eric writes excellent instructions and even devotes a page to how to tune which makes the functions very clear.  There are very few settings which normally need to be dialed in.

First, the 6.1 is a closed loop chip that takes the input from the wideband sensor and uses it to adjust the fueling to obtain the air fuel ratios you program for your car.  It does not use blms/ints like the factory set up.

It comes from Eric with default parameters of 10.8 a/f in both 1/2 and 3/4 and he has programmed in a fuel curve based upon what he thinks the boost will be when you run, the type of turbo you have, the kind of heads you have as well as the cam and intercooler.  In other words, he comes up with an estimated fuel curve for your car.

It does not use the factory O2 for anything.  The readings are there, but they don't do anything.  He gives you the option to not use the wideband as well and simply run open loop and again, the factory o2 is not used.  It's up to you to look at the wb readings, and the nb readings if you like, and make the adjustments to get the car to run the way you want it yourself instead of the ecm doing the work.

When you get the chip and install it, it runs closed loop on the default a/f's of 10.8/10.8-1.  This does not mean it will run as well as it could...it means that Eric was trying to be conservative and protect us from ourselves.  Contrary to what the kids say, there are no magic a/f numbers.  Tuning requires us to find out what makes the car run as fast as possible without blowing it up.

Translated, how lean can you go without popping the engine.

Now if your engine does not perform as Eric thinks it will based upon his experience, the ecm may have to adjust his curve a lot or maybe hardly at all to obtain the a/f that you request.  If you look at the blm box in PL that is immediately above the blm matrix, you will see a number.  If the fuel curve is exactly on the nose, the number will be 128.  If the number is 160, then you know the ecm is stepping up the fuel to obtain the a/f number you put into the chip or even the one he put in as default.  As the ecm does not work instantly, it is desirable to keep this number close to 128.  Therefore, you go to the wide open throttle fuel setting and change it from 128 to 160 and this should make the next run show a number in the blm box much closer to 128.  If the number was 110, then you know the ecm was pulling fuel to get to that number so you would change base wide open fuel to 110.

In the real world, if you start at 10.8-1 and there is no timing retard, then you might want to lean the car down to 11.0-1.  or even more...so you make another run and you again look at the blm number and adjust as required.   Being a dinosaur,  I like to look at the factory O2 and know that most cars, on alky, run pretty well at factory o2 mv's around 750 so I watch that while I am adjusting the wb a/f numbers along with timing retard and the wb numbers.

I know that 3/4 timing does not make much difference in top end performance whether it is 18 degs or 24 degs when running alky.  I know, however, that 18 degs is a heckuva lot safter than 24 so I always err to the low side...particu larly since I have seen more than one that made more mph at the lower setting.

1/2 gear timing is a horse of a different color.  I know that if the alky is set to come on at a low boost, it burns cooler and kills the turbo spool so I either try to turn the alky on later and take out a little fuel, plus add timing to start the burn earlier and build some heat to help spool the turbo.


On a regular, non wb chip, the car is basically in open loop at wide open throttle.  In regular, non wide open throttle, The car starts on a programmed fuel curve that is trimmed by input from the factory O2.  If the O2 sensor says the car is lean....(O2 numbers are low), the ecm adds fuel and the blms go above 128.  If high, the ecm pulls fuel and the blms go below 128.

When the LV8 (which is an ecm computed number) reaches a certain number, the car enters Power Enrichment mode and starts adding fuel based upon the PE number.  The TPS number is not used.  In fact, at idle the tps can be set between 0.34-0.46v and there will be no difference in performance.  On top end, it has no affect on PE and it can be set, with Eric's chip, between 4.25-4.90 volts with no affect on performance.

It is important that it works in normal driving because it affects non PE fueling so it should increment linearly as the throttle is opened.

IAC's have zero to do with anything other than idle so it does not matter what it reads then.  It's job is to maintain a steady idle rpm as load on the engine changes such as when dropping it into gear or turning on the AC.  My experience is that setting iac's to 10 or setting them to 30 does not have much to do with idle if iac is working properly.

If one has a cracked header pipe, or leaks at the cross over, etc, then air can be sucked into the pipe due to the exhaust pulses passing by and this will tell the O2 that the exhaust mix is lean so the ecm will add fuel and the car will end up rich even if the O2 is saying lean.  This is worse at low speed where the exhaust pulses are further between each other than say over 3000 rpm where the pipes are pretty much pressurized.

A leak around the egr will fool the ecm as well and we will see high blms.  Leaks before the throttlebody will also put air into the system that was not metered by the maf and the car will be lean because it is getting more air than the ecm is being told.

Maybe I will go out to the shop and think about putting valve cover gaskets on one of my leakers
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 14 2015, 08:27:17 PM
One thing I've noticed as you've gotten older Steve...is you're dumbing things down. Great post...and easy to understand. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 15 2015, 08:52:59 AM
Thanks for breaking it down for me Steve so even this guy could somewhat understand it. 
It couldn't hurt to just have the wideband sensor installed to back up the narrow band readings and vice versa and still run the narrow band chip.  That may be the way to go so  I can get a better grasp of the wideband tuning. 
I was a bit surprised with Billy's car when my old white T, which still has an unopened stock engine, was outrunning his car.  He had some better 60 foot times, which I feel comes with practicing consistant launch techniques, but the old white T was killing him at the traps with both time and mph.  Pretty much same setup except for his 212 cam and he was shifting at like 6 grand.  Same 6262 turbo and both pushing around 25 PSI boost. 
 
Did you get those gaskets changed?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 15 2015, 10:07:18 AM
something wrong with his top end for sure.  Who knows if the heads are what he thinks they are, or if the cam has a flat lobe, etc.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on June 15 2015, 02:11:43 PM
Billy = Avila?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 15 2015, 04:01:14 PM
Billy = Avila?
No.....  Billy the kid! lol
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on June 15 2015, 04:03:49 PM
Billy = Avila?
No.....  Billy the kid! lol
Well you didn't get a goat from me. :rofl:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 15 2015, 10:08:26 PM
Thanks for breaking it down for me Steve so even this guy could somewhat understand it. 
It couldn't hurt to just have the wideband sensor installed to back up the narrow band readings and vice versa and still run the narrow band chip.  That may be the way to go so  I can get a better grasp of the wideband tuning. 
I was a bit surprised with Billy's car when my old white T, which still has an unopened stock engine, was outrunning his car.  He had some better 60 foot times, which I feel comes with practicing consistant launch techniques, but the old white T was killing him at the traps with both time and mph.  Pretty much same setup except for his 212 cam and he was shifting at like 6 grand.  Same 6262 turbo and both pushing around 25 PSI boost. 
 
Did you get those gaskets changed?

Shifting at 6 grand with that cam is too high. I leave my transmission in D and let it do its thing. The 1-2 shift comes in at 5250 with the 2-3 shift at 5500. RPM drop at the shift points checks in at 700...with the 16930 convertor 'flashing' to 3950 on a hard launch.

Getting the alky turn on point set...is critical. Too soon...and it'll bog the motor down. My SMC progressive kit kicked in at 13 PSI.

A word about heads. There are head porters...and there are head porters...and mine is the latter. The other option is to go with a set of Champion irons. Most don't run enuf valve spring pressure.

I don't run WB cuz I know when I have the fueling in the 750's at the shift points with my engine that I'm at the grenade point.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 16 2015, 01:27:20 PM
Thanks for the input Brad


I worked on my A/C yesterday evening.  I'm no HVAC guru.  At idle, set on max, fan on high with the windows down and high side was 185-190 and the low side was 35-36.  Are these good numbers?  I believe temperature has some affect on the pressure readings but not certain.  Outside temp was low 90's. The temps in the pic:  lower number is from the center vent and the upper number is from where the thermometer is resting on the dash
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on June 16 2015, 02:40:04 PM
WBO2 + PowerLogger = success.  That is the simple solution, IMO.  Even if your ECM isn't adjusting with the WB02, you can at least read, record, and review the data in a very clear and linear fashion.  Tuning with a NB02 alone is sketchy.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on June 16 2015, 04:05:07 PM
The center usually gets the most air and is usually the coolest Jason. You should be close on all vents though. If the top is your center and the bottom is your side then you've got something blocking the vent in the dash. I've pulled mouse nests out when something like this has happened. :rofl: Damn things will make a nest anywhere they can, believe me. :013:
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 16 2015, 04:13:37 PM
The center usually gets the most air and is usually the coolest Jason. You should be close on all vents though. If the top is your center and the bottom is your side then you've got something blocking the vent in the dash. I've pulled mouse nests out when something like this has happened. :rofl: Damn things will make a nest anywhere they can, believe me. :013:
The top number is the temp at the little white box.  The lower number is at the vent. All the vents were within like 2 degrees of each other.


 I bought this little device to check the inside of an old coke machine. It was like $20.  It has like a 6 foot wire with a temp sensor on the end of the wire.  Put the sensor wherever you want to check the temp and then put the little white box where you can easily read the numbers.  It has come in handy over the years. Temps on the display are labeled as outside and inside. Inside being the temp at the sensor wire
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 16 2015, 04:17:42 PM
WBO2 + PowerLogger = success.  That is the simple solution, IMO.  Even if your ECM isn't adjusting with the WB02, you can at least read, record, and review the data in a very clear and linear fashion.  Tuning with a NB02 alone is sketchy.


So you find tuning with the wideband easier or just as a backup to the narrow band tuning?  I have had no issues tuning with narrow band without a WB as a backup.  I just keep it on the safe side if something doesn't look right. 


I believe you have mentioned to me before a wideband that you use. Is it a stand alone with gauge? I forget
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on June 16 2015, 04:39:34 PM
Here ya' go Jason...and I'm likely putting one in my car. :)

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/103_107/products_id/357 (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/103_107/products_id/357)
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 16 2015, 06:33:21 PM
I need one of those 7ft cables for my AFX.   The square box is ugly but the system is outstanding

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on June 16 2015, 08:00:17 PM

I worked on my A/C yesterday evening. 

That's just because some moocher borrowed and kept your gauges for way too long. I'm glad you got them back.

P.S. I really appreciate the loan. Thanks for your generosity.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 16 2015, 08:09:10 PM
Jason, what kinda heads did your old car have?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on June 16 2015, 08:25:57 PM
WBO2 + PowerLogger = success.  That is the simple solution, IMO.  Even if your ECM isn't adjusting with the WB02, you can at least read, record, and review the data in a very clear and linear fashion.  Tuning with a NB02 alone is sketchy.


So you find tuning with the wideband easier or just as a backup to the narrow band tuning?  I have had no issues tuning with narrow band without a WB as a backup.  I just keep it on the safe side if something doesn't look right. 


I believe you have mentioned to me before a wideband that you use. Is it a stand alone with gauge? I forget

I haven't tuned with a NB02 since the early 2000s; I have only ever referenced them to appreciate what the ECM is seeing - just like any other I/O sensor that contributes to how the car is running.  The WB02 gives increased accuracy and repeatability, plus you can recalibrate it as you go over the life-cycle of the sensor (cannot do that with the NB02... it just craps out).

My Buick is hardwired with a Innovate LC-1 this is tied into the MAFT Pro and the Powerlogger with its analog outputs.  I prefer the newer digital Innovate MTX-L line now because everything is full integrated into the gauge (and is very flexible).  I own 2 of these.  So yes, I firmly believe in having a WB02 in my "tool box" when tuning.

Cannot do this with a NB02: http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=6744 (http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=6744)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: williambavila on June 16 2015, 10:40:28 PM
I guess I need to start reading to see how many time steve has said " I wish William would just sell his car"
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on June 16 2015, 10:53:52 PM
Here ya' go Jason...and I'm likely putting one in my car. :)

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/103_107/products_id/357 (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/103_107/products_id/357)
Thanks for the link Brad

I worked on my A/C yesterday evening. 

That's just because some moocher borrowed and kept your gauges for way too long. I'm glad you got them back.

P.S. I really appreciate the loan. Thanks for your generosity.


No worries Rich.  Your welcome to whatever I have that you need.
Jason, what kinda heads did your old car have?
Those heads were untouched stockers with comp 981 springs installed.  Also had the TA performance race headers with the band clamps.


I guess I need to start reading to see how many time steve has said " I wish William would just sell his car"
You won't get much love on this board William. LOL!  I bet we have all felt the wrath of Steve at one time or another but he always seems to calm a bit and still help us nitwits. Maybe he's a gluten for punishment or maybe, just maybe he really does like us
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on June 16 2015, 11:50:42 PM
I guess I need to start reading to see how many time steve has said " I wish William would just sell his car"

I have only thought it....lol

What I have said is I wish you would read the instructions!!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: TexasT on June 17 2015, 07:44:09 PM
I guess I need to start reading to see how many time steve has said " I wish William would just sell his car"

If you sold it where would we get fodder for this and other boards?

I think you were doing fine. One change at a time and then run it to see what it does. Lots of runs makes for a well tuned ride.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on July 28 2015, 05:10:43 PM
New question fellas....  Who has run 1.65 ratio rockers on a completely stock head and cam? Problems? Gains? Losses?  Valve cover issues?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on July 28 2015, 09:33:10 PM
New question fellas....  Who has run 1.65 ratio rockers on a completely stock head and cam? Problems? Gains? Losses?  Valve cover issues?

If you're gonna change the ratio...then you could run into coil bind. I had Joe set my heads up for the stock 1.55 rockers.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Charlief1 on July 28 2015, 10:11:11 PM
New question fellas....  Who has run 1.65 ratio rockers on a completely stock head and cam? Problems? Gains? Losses?  Valve cover issues?
The rockers have to be clearanced for the rockers and besides the coil bind issue you may need to cut the guides down since they only have enough room for about a .460 lift.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on August 02 2015, 03:19:23 PM
New question fellas....  Who has run 1.65 ratio rockers on a completely stock head and cam? Problems? Gains? Losses?  Valve cover issues?
The rockers have to be clearanced for the rockers and besides the coil bind issue you may need to cut the guides down since they only have enough room for about a .460 lift.
I gotta take some measurements and do some math.  I planned on the valve covers having clearance issues but it's been a while since i put these rockers on my barn heads to see if there were any issues with clearance with the pedestals. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on August 02 2015, 03:23:22 PM
Next question....


Is there logic in the ECM to turn off the radiator cooling fan when temps are above the preset turn on limit but the car is driving say in 4th with the TC locked? Would having A/C on and pressure above 150 on the high side over ride this feature if it does exist?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on August 02 2015, 09:39:28 PM
not to my knowlege.

The AC pressure and high temp turn ons don't go thru the ecm so they counteract anything else.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on August 02 2015, 11:33:30 PM
Thanks Steve.  I was watching the powerlogger screen and didn't see the fan on box checked but could tell by the load on the voltmeter that the fan was on.  Was curious if the fan being on would create a differential pressure and "back up" the air flow.  I would assume that the incoming airflow  would just push the fan to a higher speed than what the motor was turning it at.  Probably a stupid thought but sometimes I think about shit like that
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on August 03 2015, 09:31:10 AM
Jason, I am too lazy to go look at the code, but, I think the factory chip was programmed to turn the fan on around 200 degs.  In many cases, this meant that the fan did not run when the car was going down the road at speed because the system was adequate to keep the car below the turn on temperature when moving rapidly.

Now, when we reprogram the fan to come on at 168 degs, or whatever number the programmer chooses, the system, in the summer, cannot cool the car down to this number so it runs all the time.  The fan then becomes a resistance to air flow as you suspect.  It may speed up some, but I would bet that it still blocks air flow somewhat.

And, whatever the case may be, the AC trumps all because it is a mechanical switch programmed to make the circuit when the pressure reaches a certain level.   
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 29 2015, 02:47:02 PM
Next question...
 
Does someone have a link or source that explains fuel pressure vs fuel volume vs injector duty cycle?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 29 2015, 03:43:41 PM
volume changes by the square root of the new pressure divided by the old fuel pressure.  You have to be careful about not mixing cc/min and lbs/hour...Lotsa formulas out there\

http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php (http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php)


I use 0.65 normally for bfsc
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 30 2015, 04:17:41 PM
Thanks for the link Steve.  Been reading their explanation links as well.  Trying to learn so I can calculate what the demand would be to require an internal  dual pump or perhaps an external pump that can move the volume or if it's even needed at all...
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 30 2015, 05:05:06 PM
The answer if probably when you hit the nines when spraying alky.

Dual pumps are Rube Goldberg.  There are a number of higher output single pumps available altho some may require a larger return line to adequately control pressure at idle.  A larger supply line will always help get the volume capability of the pump to the front of the car.

External pumps are rarely required on a car that can be street driven.

In the end, as long as fuel pressure at the rail reads what it should for the boost being run, the pump is large enough

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 30 2015, 05:21:29 PM
Jason...with the heads you have I'd opt for the 340 LPH pump. That pump has ben hit or miss with needing a larger return line. Some have drilled out the Saginaw fittings...or gone with a larger return line...and some have been fine as is. My car is a duplicate of Grumpys. I think he used a 255 LPH pump to hit the 9's with alky...but don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 30 2015, 06:30:18 PM
I should be ok with what I have. Installed the DW 300 with -8 feed and a -6 return. We'll see what happens when the boost gets turned up. Just wanted to calculate the fuel needs of 80's vs the 60's that I am currently running. Trying to dot the i's and cross the t's
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 30 2015, 06:45:55 PM
Got a given hp, the 80's require the same amount of fuel as the 60's.  It's only when the 60's cannot supply enough fuel to feed the hp that the engine is capable of, that 80's may be of benefit.  That's why bsfc is used to size injectors.

60's plus dual spray alky have edged into the nines on a 255 lph pump.

On race gas, I would start thinking of larger than 60's around 125 mph in the quarter mile although I have seen faster.

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 30 2015, 06:52:34 PM
Eric had/has it on his site that 60's are good for 10.5 on race gas. PL data tells me he's right. :)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 30 2015, 06:59:19 PM
agree completely!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on October 30 2015, 07:11:37 PM
My plan is to have a chip for race gas and one for alky.  Eric also has on his site that the 80's require a dual pump or external pump.  That's what got me interested in learning the fuel pressure/pump volume stuff.  Like we talked brad, I'm going to see where and when these 60's peak and go from there.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Scoobum on October 30 2015, 07:40:03 PM
I'm betting those heads you have will suck the 60's dry earlier than mine. Start watching your IDC at 7 flat. I run my fuel pressure a tad higher than Erics recommendation .

Steve, I got PL data from Dan Kellers car from Napierville. Comparing 02's with AF. 10.8 and 750's for 02's. I start seeing KR in the low 750's with my own engine...surpr ise surprise. From what I see with Dan Kellers data, I don't think my NB tuning is that far off.

My thot is this. If I keep pulling fuel till I see a hint of KR...then I've pushed it as far as I can. I know what the NB reading is...does it really matter what the WB says.
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on October 30 2015, 08:43:25 PM
People are hung up on the wide band because they want a magic number. Joe Blow went 9.3 using an AF of 10.4 so that is  what I set mine to. 

As I said, it takes X amount of fuel to support Y amount of HP.  That does not change very much.  How you got that hp is another matter. 

Aluminum heads tend to make less hp than iron because of poorer thermal efficiency but they may provide more air flow while allowing more boost, compression, and timing-again due to the lower thermal efficiency. 

In the end, its about combination, ambient conditions, and tuning ability.

How often do we see 12 sec cars with 10 sec parts?.  People tend to call vendors and ask what to buy without understanding how the system works.

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on January 04 2016, 09:57:36 AM
I've been trying, without success, to find some info/specs on what is generally determined to be acceptable rotating assembly balance numbers.  I have the balance sheet from my barn motor build, which was balanced at 36% but the other numbers at specific rpm's baffle me.  Any help and links is appreciated!
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on January 04 2016, 11:39:08 AM
From http://www.nmradigital.com/2014/02/26/how-to-balance-a-rotating-assembly/ (http://www.nmradigital.com/2014/02/26/how-to-balance-a-rotating-assembly/)

A rotating assembly can be balanced to varying degrees of precision, and a moderate-rpm street motor can get away with far more imbalance than a high-rpm race motor. So how close is close enough? Since Americans don’t subscribe to the metric system, the standard unit of measurement for crankshaft balancing is an ounce-inch. There are 28.34 grams in one ounce, so balancing to ½ ounce-inch means that a crank has roughly 14 grams of imbalance one inch from its centerline. “Many production domestic V-8s are balanced to around two ounce-inches while a 7,000-rpm street/strip performance engine is usually balanced to ¾ ounce-inch,” Judson explains. “A very high-end race motor will get balanced to ¼ ounce-inch, which is seen as the holy grail of balancing by engine builders. Even at ¼ ounce inch, the rotating assembly is still 7 grams out of balance an inch from the crankshaft centerline. That might seem like a lot, but a 10,000 rpm NHRA Comp Eliminator motor will run all season long when balanced to ¼ ounce-inch.”
According to Judson, the distance from the crankshaft centerline to the edge of the counterweights is roughly three inches on most domestic V-8s. In the realm of balancing, this distance is called the correction radius. The problem is that not everyone factors in the dynamic effects of the correction radius when balancing a crank. “Many shops will balance a crank until the balancer reads ¼ ounce-inch,” Judson explains. “However, once you factor in a three-inch correction radius, the crank is actually ¾ ounce-inch out of balance. So even though they think they balanced a crank to ¼ ounce-inch, it’s actually ¾ ounce-inch out of balance. The reason you can get away with it is because a crank balanced to ¾ ounce inch will run just fine in a typical street/strip motor, and it’s still far better balanced than a production engine.”


Don't think this answers your question precisely, but it's an interesting article. :)   Most of the sheets that I have seen don't specify the particulars when they state 1 oz balance, or such.

Our Buicks were balanced at 36.6% from the factory which moves the vibration into the horizontal plane. High rpm engines over 6000-7000 rpm generally move the vibrations into the vertical plane by going to 50% and I think some circle track and other consistently high rpm engines over balance to 52% or so.  Thus we correct for a specific rpm range to keep the bearings from being pounded and to extend engine life.

Charlie is pretty well informed on this subject...at least compared to me and perhaps he will show up and give some better info more to the point.
 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on January 04 2016, 08:57:03 PM
Thanks Steve. You are correct in thinking that I was looking for something else.  Going to attach the balance sheet for the barn motor.  My question or rather the lack of understanding remains, what are acceptable numbers?  I understand the hammer analogy and the overbalance and under balance and can assume the lower the number the better.  Thoughts?


Edit:  thinking I can do some interpolating with the numbers.  If the 1/4 oz is the preferred race balance the just need to convert that into a decimal. 1/4 ounce equals 0.015625 of one pound.  That would mean that this assembly is above that "limit" at 1000 rpm. Even at 1/2 ounce = 0.03125 and would mean it's above that "limit" at 1000 rpm.  So I guess the question is at what rpm does the 1/4 ounce race balance apply?


.04 pound = .64 ounce
.06 pound = .96 ounce


Should I be happy with us balance?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on January 04 2016, 10:49:05 PM
I think this is balanced quite well.  I believe it is better than 1/4 oz which used to be the old standard....lo oks like it is less that .2 oz and both sides are pretty close to being even.

As you know, the imbalance quadruples as rpm is doubled which is what the numbers show.

Given the rpm that this engine will run, there is very little load on the bearings.  I think you should be very happy.

hmmm...calcula ted it another way and got 1/4 oz...anyway for the rpm being turned...it's a good job


I swear, the more I read, the more confused I get...still the numbers at 6000 and 8000 rpm are low so its a good job from what I can see
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 08 2016, 09:49:01 PM
Does a chart exist that compares wideband verses narrow band numbers to see the correlation?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 08 2016, 11:49:05 PM
there is no real correlation.  The narrow band is only meaningful at stoch and the A/F's for wide open throttle are way outside the pass band on the narrow-band.   We just give nb numbers that seem to be typical for what it takes to run safely....

If we forget so called numbers that seem to be common for max performance, then the wb seems to fall somewhere between 10.8 and 11.2 depending upon turbo size and boost.  Larger turbos pushed toward the upper boost limits seem to be around 10.8 and smaller turbos at their upper limits seem to be 11.0-11.2

On the other hand, NB numbers seem to be be around 740-760 consistently in spite of turbo size from what I have seen.  Also, nb numbers at light pedal for a given a/f are much different than those given for the same a/f under boost as the narrow band is very sensitive to temperature and pressure.

In the end, no matter what you are using for guidance, the best performance seems to come with being as lean as is possible without incurring detonation/timing retard which is what aggravates me when some one posts, quite knowingly, you should be running at 10.8 without any data to substantiate it other than they read Joe Blow was running it when he turned a 9.30 at an altitude density 23 feet below sea level.  :)

And, while I am on my usual rant, third gear timing is not as beneficial as boost when running pump/alky.  Note, I said third gear timing.  In fact, i have seen a few that ran faster with 18 degs of timing than they did with 21 degs of timing when they were running mid tens.

Typically, the bigger the turbo, the less timing will be and also the less performance will be affected by changes in the timing...again third gear.

First gear is different because additional timing heats up the chamber and gets the turbo spooled quicker and is most effective when alky is being sprayed.  Some tend to forget that it takes heat to spool the turbo and simply have high velocity due to a loose converter is not the main factor.

In the end, we use the term "tuning" because it is an iterative process to find out what a given combo on a given day, in a given location needs to perform the best...and not because there are certain god-given numbers that everyone needs to know to go fast. 
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on May 09 2016, 07:01:43 AM
Not going to argue with Steve on any of that. 

I would add that you can log both your WB02 and NB02 and overlay the data; what that will do is show how/if the data is correlated (assuming it is repeatable and consistent).  Truthfully we would all be better served if we moved away from gasoline scale AFRs and just started using standard air–fuel equivalence ratio (aka Lambda).  Reason being so many of us run strange brews of fuel (gas, gas + alky, gas + alky + propane, racing gas + unicorn piss) that the 14.7:1 scale is flat-out incorrect for the fuel concoction being delivered.

http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html (http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 09:41:48 AM
Excellent point, Mike... You nailed it.

I recall one car with potentially high nine second parts that was stuck in the upper tens.  I looked at the wb vs the nb and the nb looked strange.  I asked about fuel pressure and the guy said he had not looked at it because the wb was right where he thought it should be.

Yep, he was running on alky because the pump was giving up half way down the strip. Turned out he had dialed up the alky twice because he had seen a little timing retard.   

WB numbers, or any other numbers, are only meaningful when taken in context and context is variable when we start changing the fuel up.  That is why I find it all interesting. :D

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 09 2016, 11:37:39 AM
Thanks for the input fella's.

Let me see if I got this:

No charts exist and if they did, it would be contingent on what brew was in the tank
More boost means less timing in high gear
Same boost means more timing in low gear
Switch to lambda when understanding and comprehension reach an acceptable understanding of it all

Going to tune for high gear mph and boost levels at my home test site then adjust that tune for low gear timing and fuel when at the track
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 12:26:19 PM
Not exactly :D

but the way I ramble, pretty close!

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/basics.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/basics.htm)

Look at the O2 section at the top of the page and see if the graphs and words make the subject more meaningful :)

With regard to boost, I was suggesting that boost trumps timing and that on pump gas/alky, you will probably go faster by adding boost and subtracting timing if that is what it takes to run the boost without timing retard.  I'm pretty sure the same will happen on race gas as well from my own experiences.

In low gear, more timing may be required to get the turbo spooled faster but the event is so quick that it will not necessarily lead to detonation in higher gears if the timing has been reduced.  This applies with any fuel but is much more noticeable when spraying alky.  Too expand upon that and make it even more complicated, you may need to lean the mixture way down in low as well as well as delay the point where the alky begins to spray--all in the name of getting enough heat to spool the turbo.  You can do this in low because not only is the chamber not hot, but also because the load on the engine is low due to the gearing and the converter slip.

And finally, use this advice and other people's setting as guide lines but find out what works in your car under given conditions no matter whether your settings agree with common knowledge or not...not a bad idea to write them down for future reference.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 12:30:17 PM
another comment, some of us old timers used to find that our cars slowed down on C16 and did not want to spool under certain climatic conditions.  If we poured some 110 octane into the tank with the C16, the car would jump out of the hole.  C16 seemed to be harder to get started burning under certain conditions whereas the 110 would burn much easier and get the car moving.  I suspect a lot of used C16 when it was not really needed in our combinations but all the cool guys used it so....LOL
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 12:50:31 PM
Another comment, aluminum heads are thermally inefficient with regard to the combustion process as they do not retain as much of the heat from the burn and heat is what makes hp.  A rule of thumb is that if we add about a point of compression ratio, we get back to approximately where we would be if we had iron heads.  If we do not have the ability to add some compression back, then we can use more timing and more boost to make the heat.

More in the sense of what we would be able to use in an iron headed engine with all else being equal...like cam profile, etc.  Some combustion chambers can be improved with regard to flame distribution, quench, etc so again...no simple answers, just more tuning.

When it comes to heat transfer into the coolant stream, they are more efficient so we may see higher coolant temps that we had with the iron heads. 

The big benefit of aluminum is that we may be able to cast/port larger intake and exhaust passages for more flow on top end and ultimately get more power at higher rpm on top end...it's up to us to make up for whatever we may have lost due to the poor thermal efficiency in the combustion process on the bottom end....:)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 09 2016, 01:18:04 PM
Thanks again Steve.  I printed all the "basics" from your site shortly after I bought my first turbo regal.  I need to go back and read them all again.

The graph makes a little more sense to me now between the two sensors.  I watched both sensors at idle and at cruise with varying numbers.  800-ish at idle nb and 13.1-13.6 wb.  At cruise, 400-600 nb and 15.5-16.1.  My chips are not SD so I'm still tuning with the NB.  I may make take that step next year. Right now I'm in the monitoring/learning mode.

How can you tell when a wide band sensor is going bad?  I read that they stick on one side, usually lean.  Any truth to that?
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 01:57:44 PM
I don't think so.  Since last fall, I have been trying to figure out why William's car seemed to be adding fuel thru the blm block on his 6.1 chip.  The o2 looked nice and flat but the chip said it was pegging out the amount of fuel it could add and his injector numbers were high.  He went to 80 lb injectors and it helped a little, but his car was using more fuel than I thought it should. It should have been fine with 60's/

He disconnected the wb sensor and let it reset...no change.  Car looked okay at idle and cruise.  The other day, he said something about using race fuel last year to see if the car did any better.  It was one of those "Oh S***" moments.  I told him to get another wb sensor and sure nuf, suddenly it stopped adding nearly as much fuel.  Now I understand why his car was not detonating with a/f's 11 to 11.2 smh....

That was a Bosch sensor in an AEM wb system.  Bosch sensors are known for being sensitive to lead and high temperature whereas the NGK sensors last much longer.  That's why FAST and such use NGK.

Sensor looked normal to me...but it took a bolt of lightning to figure out the real problem. Car has picked up a tenth or two at best.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 02:24:03 PM
at Cruise, my cars run about 010-020 on the o2s.  That puts them around 15.7 on the AF.  I have run 000 and taken out more fuel and cruised at almost 17-1.

I have read a car will not run that lean...I guess Buicks are more special than we know
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 09 2016, 08:22:50 PM
That was a Bosch sensor in an AEM wb system.  Bosch sensors are known for being sensitive to lead and high temperature whereas the NGK sensors last much longer.  That's why FAST and such use NGK.

Sensor looked normal to me...but it took a bolt of lightning to figure out the real problem. Car has picked up a tenth or two at best.
I wish I would've read that before buying an AEM wideband. Maybe why there so cheap.



Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 09 2016, 08:46:31 PM
Stay away from lead and all should be goof
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: motorhead on May 10 2016, 06:59:41 AM
Bosch has a new sensor, 4.9 if I remember right, vs. the old 4.2; the new unit is supposed to be much more robust.  That being said I was still on the original (ten year old) Bosch sensor that came with the LC1 in my Buick when I sold it.  I am running the 4.2 sensors with the MTX-L in my LSx cars since they are only used for logging - I've replaced the one in the TBSS once so far.

If you go SD and depend on the sensor spend the money one a good WBO2 setup.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 10 2016, 10:38:27 AM
I have not seen anything concerning it's reliability when leaded fuel is used.  It is supposed to stay accurate longer when used with unleaded fuel and is driving the fueling control.

The 4.2 is cheaper by a substantial margin than the NGK sensor but has always been known to be much more susceptible to lead and egt.  They never lasted long when either using leaded or placed close to the turbo.

It used to be suggested to recalibrate them before each racing session when race gas was used, but, most of the new, cheaper systems don't have this calibration function built in.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on May 10 2016, 10:47:47 AM
Does anyone know if these Ballengers are as good as the originals?
http://bmotorsports.com/shop/ (http://bmotorsports.com/shop/)
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: 1 RARE T on May 10 2016, 10:49:33 AM
To further drive home the point that not everyones' A/F ratio is/should be the same, my car always liked more fuel.

If I leaned it out to an 11ish ratio, it slowed down.

10.6 was the number spraying alky that it seemed to go quickest and felt strong. If you watch fast cars on the track,most are spewing black smoke at some point.

These guys are lucky to have your knowledge to "lean on". Get it? Thanks Steve.

Not having a TB any more for me is a shame but back when I did, I read your posts countless times 'till it sunk in.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 10 2016, 10:55:18 AM
I have the original AFX which I bought when I gave up on Innovate.    I understand the Ballenger is very good but I would buy the one with the NTK sensor and not the Bosch.
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on May 10 2016, 10:58:18 AM
AEM has gone to a different sensor in the new gauge it does not have the same connector and it's not interchangeabl e with their older set up even if you swap connectors   
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 10 2016, 11:16:34 AM
It uses the 4.9 in the new line
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 10 2016, 11:56:10 AM
I believe that this one has the 4.9 but I will need to confirm.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 10 2016, 08:36:58 PM
Confirmed. 4.9 sensor
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 10 2016, 09:16:38 PM
From what I read, the 4.9 should be much more durable than the 4.2.  The AEM X series can actually be free air calibrated if so desired.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 10 2016, 09:20:34 PM
* Independently tested at 360° Product Testing (results reported on August 31st, 2015) against 17 competitor wideband UEGO Air/Fuel Controllers. AEM X-Series Inline with Bosch 4.9LSU wideband sensor and AEM X-Series Wideband UEGO AFR Gauge with Bosch 4.9LSU sensor recorded the fastest response times.
** Wideband UEGO sensors are wear items and their lifespan is determined by many factors including contamination from leaded fuels, automotive fluids, particulates, mechanical or thermal shock and from being unheated and exposed to the exhaust stream. Free-air calibration may correct drift as a sensor ages, but it is recommended that they are replaced as part of your vehicle’s maintenance program. When performing free-air calibration, please follow the procedure outlined in the instruction manual.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 10 2016, 10:57:37 PM
Thanks Steve!  With this weather I should have some time tomorrow at work to do some research reading
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 10 2016, 11:16:48 PM
ugly here at the moment...but the hail has not been too large...hope it does not knock the wheat down
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: daveismissing on May 11 2016, 11:04:08 AM
Hope your crop doesn't get beat up.

snip:CAN I CHANGE THE AEM UEGO SENSOR’S CONNECTOR?
No. There is a laser-etched, calibrated resistor in the sensor’s connector body. This resistor is specifically created for the exact sensor that it is attached to. Modifying this will invalidate the sensor’s output.

Does this mean the connector is proprietary to AEM and replacements must be sourced thru them or is that just a description of the new 4.9 sensor in general?
Title: jason's education thread
Post by: larrym on May 11 2016, 11:10:04 AM
Wonder if you could swap the connector on the gauge side or is the signal different.
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on May 11 2016, 12:14:08 PM
The major difference between LSU 4.9 and 4.2 is that LSU 4.9 uses the reference pumping-current, while LSU 4.2 uses the reference air. What does this mean? Let’s read this true story from the auto industries: when Bosch first designed a wideband oxygen sensor, a reference air cell was used to provide a reference of stoic AFR. The technology was to keep the pumping cell balanced with the reference air cell, by pumping the oxygen out of the pumping cell. The pumping current was the indication of the actual AFR in the exhaust gas. The bigger the pumping current, the more the oxygen in the exhaust, and vice versa. Therefore the reference air was vital to the accuracy of the sensor, because it was THE reference. It worked well in the lab, but not so good in the real life, because the environment around the sensor on a car was much worse. The reference air cell was susceptible to be contaminated by the surrounding pollution. Once the reference air was contaminated, the whole characteristic s of the sensor were shifted to the lower side. It was called “Characteristic Shifted Down”, or CSD, in the industries. This was the biggest problem of LSU 4.2 that was used in some early OEM applications. And it caused the big quality issue to Bosch. To fix this problem, Bosch redesigned the LSU sensor, and came up with LSU 4.9 version. LSU 4.9 sensor completely got rid of the reference air. Instead, it used a reference pumping current which was equivalent to the stoic reference air, but without having any physical air in the cell. So the technology became: the actual pumping current was compared to the reference pumping current to maintain the balance. The actual pumping current was still the indication of the actual AFR, but the reference was a calibrated electrical signal, and stayed same all the time, all the situations.

LSU 4.9 gets rid of the reference air, and therefore gets rid of the biggest failure mode. As a result, LSU 4.9 has a long life and can maintain the accuracy throughout the life. Only since then, Bosch LSU sensors have been used widely in the auto industries.

 Nowadays, all OEMs who use Bosch O2 sensors are using LSU 4.9. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all use LSU 4.9 now. If you check out the O2 sensors on your recently bought vehicles, cars/SUVs/Pickups, (since 2007 or later), on the exhaust manifolds, you will find out that they are all exclusively LSU 4.9. No more 4.2 sensors can you find on OEM vehicles.

Most aftermarket wideband controllers are still using LSU 4.2, mainly for low cost reasons. Bosch sells the LSU 4.2 to the aftermarket at a much lower price than LSU 4.9. Plus, many of those companies do not want to or are not able to adapt the new LSU 4.9 sensors. There is a big mis-understanding that LSU 4.9 is only for diesel engines, because it can measure very lean AFRs. That’s not true. There is a diesel version of LSU 4.9, called LSU4.9D, mainly because of fuel and temperature difference. LSU 4.9 has been widely used with the gasoline engines. In fact, it is the most popular gasoline engine O2 sensor now, not only because it measures wide range of AFR, but also because it has the very good reliability, and high accuracy.

There are a few wideband controller companies in the aftermarket using LSU 4.9. But that does not mean all controllers using LSU 4.9 are equal. Even with the same LSU 4.9 sensor, the controller can make a big difference. Some wideband controllers are designed for AFR display only, and they are named as “wideband AFR gauges” instead of controllers. You can imagine that those wideband gauges do not have good accuracy and fast response rate because they are not designed for those purposes. Those gauges are more for good looking than for engine tuning purposes. For engine controls, the accuracy and response rate are the most critical characteristic s of a wideband controller. One way to tell whether a wideband controller is good or not, is to see whether it can be used as a feedback device for the ECU. A feedback device must provide a real-time signal in the fast rate and high accuracy, even under dynamic situations. The requirements for a feedback device are much, much more than those for a gauge.

Even with a LSU 4.2, the controller makes a big difference. Bosch sensors are not easy to fail even with a LSU 4.2, if controlled appropriately. Especially, LSU 4.9 is designed for more than 10 year life because it has to, for the vehicle life. It should not fail in short time, like a couple of years. Many OEM cars have been running with LSU 4.9 for years and we have not heard any recalls because of LSU4.9 sensors. Why do so many aftermarket wideband systems have failed LSU sensors? Because many of them don’t have a good heating control strategy.
 The number 1 failure mode of a LSU sensor is being heated up too fast or too earlier. O2 sensors are made of ceramic materials, which can be damaged by severe thermal shocks, like condensations, liquid residuals, or just high heating power when it’s still cold. A very carefully designed heating strategy to detect the dew point and a close-loop sensor temperature control are vital for the life of the sensors. That’s why the LSU sensor must be controlled in the context of engine controls. You may say, only those who know engine controls can design a good wideband controller.

Furthermore, the accuracy of LSU sensors is highly dependent on the operating temperature of the sensing element. The sensor reading can be very different if the temperature of the sensing element is different. LSU sensors must work at the vicinity of certain temperatures for the good accuracy. LSU4.9 sensor must be maintained at 780 degrees Celsius precisely.

Bosch CJ125 chip is designed for this task. The heating strategy is a close loop control based on the measured sensor temperature. PLus, LSU 4.9 has a much higher sensor temperature resolution because of the resistance characteristic s, so the heater controls are much better than LSU 4.2. As a result, 4.9 has a longer life and better accuracy.

In every Bosch LSU sensor data sheet (4.2, 4.9 or ADV), it is clearly stated:”The wide band sensor LSU operates only in combination with a special LSU control unit (CJ125 ASIC). The functional characteristic s given in this document are only valid for operation with the CJ125 according to module specification and with recommended operational parameters.” Bosch means it. Anybody who tried to design a cheaper circuit and claimed it better ended up with a less quality one! Because Bosch simply had done that to the extreme. The cost in auto industry is everything. If there would have been a way to save another penny in the sensor control circuit, Bosch would have done it with the CJ125 chip. If some after-market vendors could design a better control circuit to control the LSU sensor and it would be cheaper, they could sell that “invention” to Bosch.

If you are still not sure, you can use an oscilloscope to actually measure the analog outputs of different wideband controllers if you really want to see the difference. Data do not lie.
 Don’t forget, when you use a scope, you better set the time scale in 10ms or smaller. If you have a time scale of 100ms or more, then there could be no difference for any controllers.

Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: Steve Wood on May 11 2016, 01:23:14 PM
so, no you cannot use the different connector by swapping connectors...u nless you have firmware that can accept either
Title: Re: jason's education thread
Post by: good2win22 on September 14 2016, 10:17:50 PM
Has anyone replaced an engine harness? If so, did you remove the inner fender to get to the grommet for the ECM connectors or did you remove the outer fender to get to that grommet? John at caspers says to remove the inner fender but damn that's a lot of bolts to lose....
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