IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: larrym on February 26 2016, 09:06:18 PM
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so I been chasing some transitional knock, if I brake boost and leave its fine but if I'm rolling and hammer it I get knock.
I use a Gen 2 translator with the G chip, I can add or remove fuel at 400 rpm increments at 3 load points low 63hz mid 100hz high 165 hz. When I look at my tunerpro log it seems like the mid load is the area that is creating the issue. Here is a screen shot and a log for anyone with tuner pro.
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Larry when I ran alky I would get transitional knock on a roll...say...l ike...50 mph on the 401. If I eased into it at 50...nothing. At the track...nothin g. Maybe one of the gents on here can help tune it out. If you are using Julios kit...then hit him up. Eric can prolly help too.
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try turning the alky on a bit earlier and bring the full spray in a bit earlier as well...
Or if using razor's kit, try increasing the ramp a bit so that you get more alky spraying at the problem point
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Thanks for the replies
It's not a huge problem and it pretty much the exact symptoms Brad describes. I have tried adjusting the alky turn on point to tune it out and it does improve things some what but then if I give it a part throttle stab to 10 psi or so it gets pig rich and stubbles.
I'm going to play a little bit with the fueling and see if I can tune most of it out. I figured this would be a good way learn a little about tuning and have a better understanding of how things work.
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I do have a 3 bar map sensor hooked up to log boost and I can change how the car senses load. The default setting is MAF/RPM. I can change it to MAP or TPS. I know a lot of newer cars us the MAP signal to sense load.
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Larry when I ran alky I would get transitional knock on a roll...say...l ike...50 mph on the 401. If I eased into it at 50...nothing. At the track...nothin g. Maybe one of the gents on here can help tune it out. If you are using Julios kit...then hit him up. Eric can prolly help too.
I used to get that exactly & might still on the 401 but my foot stops about 85% throttle for maybe 1/2 second then 100% open. I just naturally do it now but will try the alchy stuff Steve mentioned.
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pretty sure it is an alky problem and not a gas problem. Again, if you have an alkycontrol system, try increasing the gain knob a couple of numbers and try it.
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I have the ALKY kit from Julio so I'll put a note on my laptop to make sure I remember this come spring!
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sadly its not alky control its a cooling mist set up with a guage that is the controller it is also my boost gauge displays pump duty cycle as well 250 psi pump right now I have it set to start spraying at 5PSI and full on at 22 psi. The gain knob on the alky control would have it full on sooner?
Its been a good system for me but if I had it all to do again I would chose alky control....... .
http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?pid=CMGSBoostVAC&feature_key=controllers (http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?pid=CMGSBoostVAC&feature_key=controllers)
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The roads dried out so I drove the daughter to work. Decided to try MAP as load source. As soon as I changed it the load at idle went up 15 points. I did not hook up the lap top but I did a couple WOT hits from a roll and saw no knock I will log some pulls and see how that looks when I get some more time.
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Ok Dave here is a short video of a WOT hit. I like this display for my thought process. I can change what parameter is displayed but these are the ones that I use to get an idea what's going on boost, user tune (fueling right now I have my main scale adding 27 across all load points to get my BLM close to 128) Rpm, TPS, load. http://youtu.be/SV9bNZUVtVw
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I can't monitor knock but I do have a knock gauge for that. There are three load points 65kpa low load idle and cruise. Mid load part throttle light acceleration 100 kpa High load over about 10 psi 165 kpa. I can adjust fueling in 400rpm increments across each load point. The clip shows 10.20 to 10.30 A/F which I realize is a little fat but the boost is dialled back I typically have it closer to 25 26 psi just trying to tune the transitional knock out.
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When I get the log to an area I want to adjust it I pause the play back and I can move it frame by frame note the load rpm and AF then I can make adjustments. My understanding is that when I'm at 85kpa load fueling is a blend of low and mid tunes same with 125 a blend of mid and high.
WOT Timing is also adjustable and what I set it at comes in at 3000 rpm /TPS 3.25.
Once I get things dialled in I can turn WB correction back on for insurance it pretty cool set up I pick an AFR for WOT and the GEN ll will add or subtract fuel.
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Couple screen shots note the load and AF The AF starts good leans out my meth starts spraying at 5 psi and is now at full by 15 psi.
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I'm a little confused. You're at full throttle yet boost is really slow to come up?
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I would bet that those photos are only a few frames apart from each other
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That AFR curve is all over the place.
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That AFR curve is all over the place.
i
It's not a curve that's for sure!
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Does a wide band sensor get slow like a narrow band?
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WB 02 appears to jump up and down while driving its new as well.
When I first get on it I do see a slight dip which I assume is " Accelerator Enrichment" like a squirter on a carb. Right after that it leans out and the fueling appears jumps around. The you tube link has the log play back slowed to 25% so it spools quick. I will post a log in real time so you can see how fast it gets to full boost and than one slowed to 10% so you can see how the fueling changes.
Once I get to 20 PSI its fine just getting there it fluctuates.
The fuel system is all new accept for lines, new injectors, injector harness, pump, filter.
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I know that I see a video that shows full throttle, 4000rpm and 4 psi?
Why so slow to build boost?
My car was like a on/off switch and from a slow roll burned the tires straight through 2nd gear.
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the log is playing back at 25% at 8 seconds into the video its 0.27 boost at at 14 seconds in its at 21.40 that's 6 seconds multiply that by 25% that's 1.5 seconds.
If I played it back in real time you don't see much.
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Ok,
I'm a little slow. :icon_eyes:
Think of this for a second. When your brain says mash the gas, the T.P.S. is instantly to 4.6v (showing on whatever scan tool), by the time everything else catches up to the new fuel/alky requirement, a second or two has gone by. Agree?
I've always tuned to stay ahead of it with more fuel sooner and lived with the slight rich condition once in a while.
Beats changing head gaskets.
Steve Wood learned everything he knows from me! Shit, I may have that backwords. :rock:
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Oh don't worry I'm just as slow :P
I feel the same way start off a little fat and creep back leaning it out, I'm just trying to get the fueling in more of a curve as Mike put it rather up down and all around in that 1.5 seconds.
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soooo
Just went thru the adjustments on the alky controller I can adjust the pump duty cycle at the turn on point default is 25% who knows what I set it for at install its been years.
So if the alky starts spraying at 5 psi at say 50% duty cycle this might give it a better chance at keeping up full on at 15 psi.
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The WB isn't behaving like a WB.
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http://youtu.be/9xLlPYjY3LE
More of a curve ?
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Your graph is a better way to look at it, digital is too slow an update to screen. Your dips represented in the prior graph were somewhat quick.
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I slowed the play back on this log to 10%
It's getting close a little more fuel in mid load should get me where I want to be.
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Nice job
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You wanted to see this correct ?
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Yes. To write to a screen is more accurate to graph than to update numerical. A display only has to use a minimal amount of pixels to display "one dot" on the progression of a graph.
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Thanks for the help I'm getting closer I think. Still have to add fuel from 3000 to 4500 which I have but no point trying to log anything roads are wet.
The graph was hard for me to wrap my head around at first but it's clearer now.
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Hello I think I have it pretty much licked but your opinion is valued 😄
Here's screen shot of my latest log leanest it went was 12.47 just before it started to spray which is set at 5 psi 1 green light on the knock gauge but that could have been anything.
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What is red line Larry? I see numbers that confuse me a little. Also, what is low blue line. Red has number of 124.85 then goes off the chart. MAF? And the low blue line has a number of 4.37. TPS maybe? Where you paused it at
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red is load its off the graph dark blue on the bottom is boost dark blue on top is TPS thanks for looking took me a while to wrap my head around the display
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Looks to me that you really smoothed out the AFR from the earlier posted pic of the graph. The small little lean "hump" is almost gone on the most recent graph that you posted
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Yes things are improving I think.
Is 12.5 to lean for 5 psi as it transitions to ALKY it pulls good 😀
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It is still rich. 12.5:1 at 3550 rpm may not be/look so bad if you can get the AFR closer to 11 to 11.5:1. I know I almost shit my pants when I got our Procharged TBSS tuned from 10:1 to 11.5:1 AFR - it pulled that much harder to redline. Obviously depending how much meth you are spraying will have implications on your target AFR, as it is typically run that much richer vs. gasoline.
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Yeah the boost is down so it's fat I was more concerned about the transition to meth before I started playing with the Max AFR 11.5 scares me for full boost! I try to keep it under 11.0, 10.6 to 10.7 at 27 psi is my comfort zone and no knock.
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Latest log think it's almost time to add some timing and turn up the boost.
I reconfigured the display the orange line is fuel adjustments.
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Looks pretty steady now Larry. Was it the alky turn on point that you adjusted?
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No I adjusted my fueling on genll you can see the fueling added in the orange line I added fuel at the rpm and load point I was seeing the lean spike at worked pretty well now I can add some timing had set at 19 degrees I will try and find out what it likes just glad to see the knock gone when punch it.
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Ok pretty happy with the fueling right now.
So I have the boost set at 22-23 psi alky is coming on at 7 psi max duty at 20 psi. 22/20 degrees of timing with no knock it's still a little fat up top I was thinking I would up the max duty cycle on the Alky to 26 psi that's where I run it at the track. That should get my AFR close to 10.7
Probably going to add a bit more timing too.
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I'd find out what Eric uses for his high gear timing default for alky...and use that...and leave it alone. Put the boost to it. :rock:
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I'd find out what Eric uses for his high gear timing default for alky...and use that...and leave it alone. Put the boost to it. :rock:
Hoping you would chime in Brad both my buddies have Eric's ALKY chip they have 21/23 for timing.
I might add an extra degree in low gear on my chip if it's to much for the tires on the street I will save that for the track.