IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: gnonyx on March 01 2020, 10:10:41 AM
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Hi All,
I forgot when I replaced the stock header gaskets many years ago when I was younger in age it was a breeze, but now my age has caught up to me and I can't remember shit.
I know this much, to remove the driver side header, I have to remove the driver side tire to get to the header bolts, and unbolt underneath the crossover pipe.
Do I have to remove the downpipe to get to the pass. side header bolts, or can the downpipe stays bolted in place and I work around it to remove the pass. header bolts?
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First, there is no such thing as a stock header gasket. They did not come with gaskets and many of us just check that the header surface is still flat and install with a very thin coat of high temp rtv.
If you can get a wrench on the header bolts, then you don't need to pull the downpipe off the turbo, but I have found it easier to remove the turbo and thus the downpipe just to make it easier to position the header without the weight of the turbo. If you used the "slotted ends" felpro gaskets, it makes it easier to get it lined up, install the two end bolts, and then drop the gasket it place.
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First, there is no such thing as a stock header gasket. They did not come with gaskets and many of us just check that the header surface is still flat and install with a very thin coat of high temp rtv.
If you can get a wrench on the header bolts, then you don't need to pull the downpipe off the turbo, but I have found it easier to remove the turbo and thus the downpipe just to make it easier to position the header without the weight of the turbo. If you used the "slotted ends" felpro gaskets, it makes it easier to get it lined up, install the two end bolts, and then drop the gasket it place.
My bad, I know the original installation came with no gasket, like you said header surface is flat, but both of my original headers has a thin line cracks on them. During that time it was cheaper to obtain good used stock headers, and back then many has mention to me to put header gaskets
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As Steve says, these engines never came with gaskets. Over a gazillion heat/cooling cycles shit warps. In a perfect world you'd bolt them back up without gaskets. If they're dead straight then you're good to go. The cheapass Felpros with the hooked ends swap out the easiest if they ain't straight.
Pull the downpipe out...and while you're at it pound out the shit in the convertor. The turbo will spool faster and your throttle response will be crisper. Yank the turbo off it...and you'll notice the flange on it will likely be pitted. RJC sells a nice Scoob approved gasket for it. The two nuts on the crossover on the DS are a breeze to get at...the passenger side...not so much. When you snap the exhaust studs, hit your local muffler shop up to remove them and get them to set you up with the proper studs and nuts. Scoob has an engine removal vid from underneath what has to be done.
Dan and I had a DS header warped so bad we cut the flange to get it to flush up.
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As Steve says, these engines never came with gaskets. Over a gazillion heat/cooling cycles shit warps. In a perfect world you'd bolt them back up without gaskets. If they're dead straight then you're good to go. The cheapass Felpros with the hooked ends swap out the easiest if they ain't straight.
Pull the downpipe out...and while you're at it pound out the shit in the convertor. The turbo will spool faster and your throttle response will be crisper. Yank the turbo off it...and you'll notice the flange on it will likely be pitted. RJC sells a nice Scoob approved gasket for it. The two nuts on the crossover on the DS are a breeze to get at...the passenger side...not so much. When you snap the exhaust studs, hit your local muffler shop up to remove them and get them to set you up with the proper studs and nuts. Scoob has an engine removal vid from underneath what has to be done.
Dan and I had a DS header warped so bad we cut the flange to get it to flush up.
Thanks for the info
I have the Fel-Pros gasket; do I also spray Permatex Copper high temp sealant on one side or both sides?
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Won't hurt
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Won't hurt
Thanks again Steve
will post again when finish
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Okay here is the latest scoop, I plugged one exhaust pipe and the other side I place a shop vacuum hose blowing towards the engine. I then remove the A/F sensor from the downpipe and installed a brass air fitting in place for the smoke machine.
Turn everything on and found the drive side header and crossover leaking with some baby oil mist from the smoker extruding from the header gasket and crossover pipe.
As I started to loosen the crossover bolt at the driver side header, one of the bolt was a bit loose.
Is this called the collector where the header and crossover pipe connects?
Anyway, I removed the DS header, but not the crossover as visual it look good and not out of shape.
Installed the DS header with Fel-pro gasket, spray exhaust side with Permatex copper high temp sealant, and I also used a high temp copper rtv around the ds header were it connects to the crossover pipe, bolted everything and waited the next day to start engine.
Started engine and I was very upset to found the the collector leaking of smoke again. The sad part is I can't tell if the smoke is coming from the collector or from the ds header where the heat shield is spot welded to the header.
At this point I don't know if I should remove the ds header again, or remove the crossover pipe and replace it with the
TA Performance Crossover pipe
Any opinion would help, Thanks
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My guess would be the flange on the DS crossover is fukd...and not sealing. There's a ton of room on the DS...so you should be able to see and feel if it's sealed up. I always SLOWLY tightened the nuts and looked to make sure it was even all the way around for a perfect seal. One of us should have had you post a pic of the flanges/lips on the crossover when you had it off.
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If your DS header still has the heat shield on it, it needs to be removed so you can weld the crack up.
Are you sure the smoke isn't spraying onto the junction from underneath the shield?
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I assumed he had it welded long ago...
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If your DS header still has the heat shield on it, it needs to be removed so you can weld the crack up.
Are you sure the smoke isn't spraying onto the junction from underneath the shield?
Hi Earl,
Yes I still have the shield, and it's hard to say about smoke since the smoke was clouding around that area.
Many, many years ago the original headers had both crack on them, and at that time it was cheaper to buy another original headers. During that time I haven't driven the car only occasional start and drive down the block, but not hard driving or fully open the turbo.
I guess I have to remove the ds header and remove the shield to see if its crack or not
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Oh, it's going to be cracked. Every single one of them crack.
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I used to jack the car up with it running, crawl under and stick my hand up there...I could tell if it was leaking from the cross over joint, or higher up from a crack from the position of my hand
Great thing about running in open loop full time is that small cracks don't affect performance as long as not large enough to affect spool up
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As above, not a doubt in my mind it is cracked. Get the 14mm sockets and wrenches out and get to pulling. Pay attention to that L bracket, gm put it there for a reason and I believe it is needed, and needs to be put back on there.
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A REAL BIG THANK YOU (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/Smileys/default/041.gif)TO EARL :cheers:
I removed the header shield and as you can see the informous crack.
I used a magnified glass and I think their might be another hair line crack right by the edge of the poor weld job the factory did.
I know these headers are not fully S/S, do I get welded like steel rod or get welded by mig welder?
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They are stainless. There are a number of grades of stainless. TIG would probably be best but MIG has worked for me
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After all is welded is it best to put the shield back on the header?
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I did, but I wanted to retain the factory look. If the crack is at the 3-5 junction, and probably is, it’s a good idea to have a gusset welded in for added strength.
Check the flanges with a straight edge before install.
Any headers I’ve repaired I’ve always had the flange machined arrow straight and no gasket. Never a problem after.
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I did, but I wanted to retain the factory look. If the crack is at the 3-5 junction, and probably is, it’s a good idea to have a gusset welded in for added strength.
Check the flanges with a straight edge before install.
Any headers I’ve repaired I’ve always had the flange machined arrow straight and no gasket. Never a problem after.
Thanks and yes I'm also going to place a triangle metal between 3&5 for extra strength
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Update: I finally got the ds header welded, used Fel-Pro gasket, spray on the header side high temp copper gasket sealer, and installed. Started engine, and the blm stay at 128 until engine hot warm and then the blm started to climb up to 160 again. I did notice some smoke coming from what looks like underneath the turbo or around the lever arm of the wastegate.
Correct me if I'm wrong, anything coming from the downpipe to the elbow has nothing to do with blm, but everything from the elbow towards the engine has everything to do with the blm?
Would anyone have other items of why the blm is so high?
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Go back and read reply number 3...
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Go back and read reply number 3...
sorry I don't understand where is number 3?
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(http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/Themes/default/images/post/xx.gif)Re: Stock Header removal (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6457.msg92345#msg92345)« Reply #3 on: March 01 2020, 02:29:45 PM »
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As Steve says, these engines never came with gaskets. Over a gazillion heat/cooling cycles shit warps. In a perfect world you'd bolt them back up without gaskets. If they're dead straight then you're good to go. The cheapass Felpros with the hooked ends swap out the easiest if they ain't straight.
Pull the downpipe out...and while you're at it pound out the shit in the convertor. The turbo will spool faster and your throttle response will be crisper. Yank the turbo off it...and you'll notice the flange on it will likely be pitted. RJC sells a nice Scoob approved gasket for it. The two nuts on the crossover on the DS are a breeze to get at...the passenger side...not so much. When you snap the exhaust studs, hit your local muffler shop up to remove them and get them to set you up with the proper studs and nuts. Scoob has an engine removal vid from underneath what has to be done.
Dan and I had a DS header warped so bad we cut the flange to get it to flush up.
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As Steve says, these engines never came with gaskets. Over a gazillion heat/cooling cycles shit warps. In a perfect world you'd bolt them back up without gaskets. If they're dead straight then you're good to go. The cheapass Felpros with the hooked ends swap out the easiest if they ain't straight.
Pull the downpipe out...and while you're at it pound out the shit in the converter. The turbo will spool faster and your throttle response will be crisper. Yank the turbo off it...and you'll notice the flange on it will likely be pitted. RJC sells a nice Scoob approved gasket for it. The two nuts on the crossover on the DS are a breeze to get at...the passenger side...not so much. When you snap the exhaust studs, hit your local muffler shop up to remove them and get them to set you up with the proper studs and nuts. Scoob has an engine removal vid from underneath what has to be done.
Dan and I had a DS header warped so bad we cut the flange to get it to flush up.
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I do understand these engine never came with gasket, that statement I mention is when I used gaskets when I replaced both headers many years ago.
During the time of replacing both headers, I also gutted the convertor
I thought maybe the crossover pipe connected to the ds header might leaking since that time I saw some smoke coming from that connection or coming from the ds header. So I put some high temp rtv around the ds header ball end that connects to the crossover pipe, and when I remove the ds header again the ds header ball the rtv was perfectly clean off from being compress from the 2 bolts of being tighten.
Keep in mind I haven't driven this car for over 15 years, I only start it occasionally 3 months or so.
This is why it so hard for me to understand the crack on header if I haven't driven the car.
This why I'm asking about the turbo gasket by the waste gate area, or the triangle shape gasket underneath the turbo. Keep in mind I also replaced the triangle shape gasket with graphite gasket.
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It was cracked 15 years ago when you parked it.
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It was cracked 15 years ago when you parked it.
I hear you, but I when I start it up and check the scanmaster all number are within specs 15 years ago until now.
I guess I will do again the shop vac air into the tailpipe and hear for any leaks.
My question, being the blm is related to exhaust leaks, is it possible the triangle shape gasket underneath the turbo heading towards the engine can have an exhaust leak?
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You say you have smoke at the base of the turbo. Did you yank the turbo off and install an RJC turbo flange gasket like I mentioned in reply 3.
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You say you have smoke at the base of the turbo. Did you yank the turbo off and install an RJC turbo flange gasket like I mentioned in reply 3.
I did read your reply on #3, and no I didn't replace it since the 1st time when I smoke the engine is when I found the ds header leaking, and found the crack. After welded the crack and installed back again is when the blm number was still high.
If there is one thing I learned on both of these great sites, you don't start to replace parts on a whim. If baby steps needs to be done then so be it. This is why I ask many questions as many input ideas or similar occurrence, for direction of solution.
Yes I did saw little smoke around the wastegate lever arm area, is this area called the turbo flange gasket?
(https://rjcracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Turbo-Gasket.jpg)
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The gasket under the turbo the triangle one is key. Pretty much all of them leak a little at the bushing for the wastegate flapper. Once warm it should leak a little less.
High BLMs are telling you the computer thinks there is an air leak in the system somewhere between the maf and the o2 sensor. Once the exhaust is sealed - reset the computer and then let it relearn and see where you are at. You've just got to keep at it and you'll find the cause of all your issues.
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The gasket under the turbo the triangle one is key. Pretty much all of them leak a little at the bushing for the wastegate flapper. Once warm it should leak a little less.
High BLMs are telling you the computer thinks there is an air leak in the system somewhere between the maf and the o2 sensor. Once the exhaust is sealed - reset the computer and then let it relearn and see where you are at. You've just got to keep at it and you'll find the cause of all your issues.
Thanks for the info
Once I fix the exhaust leak i'll check again for air leak with the smoke machine.
When I built the smoke machine I found 7 air leaks including the throttle body vacuum block
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Pitted...just like Scoob said. Buick owners love to struggle.
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Pitted...just like Scoob said. Buick owners love to struggle.
other than replacing the pass. header, is it best to apply some hi temp copper gasket sealer on the header flange and use Remflex graphite flange gasket, or just use Remflex graphite flange gasket?
I just added this thread; I'm going to use a palm sander with medium paper to fine sandpaper just to remove the pitted area, and then use the Remflex graphite flange gasket
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All you had to do was call Jason at RJC and had him fire off a gasket to you like Scoob mentioned in reply #3. Like Grumpy says...You can lead a horse to water...
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Is the flange flat? Get a straight edge up on it and see.
If not you need to get it somewhat flat or it wont seal. Pitting will get taken up by the red rtv. warped flange, not so much.
Get a local machine shop with a big belt sander to give it a once over to flatten it out.
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I concur strongly in taking the headers to a machine shop and having them true up and resurfaced on a belt sander. If they have been welded, then I consider it pretty much imperative.
I used to almost never use a gasket. It seems that it has become standard these days and a paper thin coat of high temp is suggested. Copper high temp spray probably works as well.
I have never liked Remflex header gaskets. I am not familiar with flange gaskets, tho.
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I concur strongly in taking the headers to a machine shop and having them true up and resurfaced on a belt sander. If they have been welded, then I consider it pretty much imperative.
I used to almost never use a gasket. It seems that it has become standard these days and a paper thin coat of high temp is suggested. Copper high temp spray probably works as well.
I have never liked Remflex header gaskets. I am not familiar with flange gaskets, tho.
Hi Steve,
I appreciate your advice, but as of now the ds header is already installed with Flex-pro gasket and hi temp copper spray on the header side. I do have Remflex header gasket which is very thick and claimed to compress once the header is tighten down to eliminate any little wrap if any.
Right now I'm working on the pass. header turbo flange which has a little of pitted on them. I'm going to try to use a palm sander and smooth it out apply some thin coat of Permatex Grey gasket maker rated temp of 700* and then put Remflex flange gasket. After all is installed and connected I will do another iar leak test to is if nay leaks are present.
I'm in the middle of working on our home, and also repairing the GN.
I will post back with results
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I don't know how hot the header/joint becomes, but, exhaust gas temps on my cars run around 700 degrees at idle and 1400-1700 at wide open throttle. Personally, I would not use the gray stuff, but, it might last. I don't like the RemFlex because I have had them blow out on regular cars. They seemed to relax and then the exhaust gas burned it's way through to freedom and ruined the gasket. I realize some swear by them so I guess it might be 50-50
I used a thin coat of high temp and let it set over night to seal pits before cranking the car and prefer a thin FelPro because I think it will not relax as much, but??????? Opinions are a dime a dozen and we can always find one we like on the 'Net. It's kinda like a lottery. I find that it always can be done over again if one is highly motivated :D :D :D
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I don't know how hot the header/joint becomes, but, exhaust gas temps on my cars run around 700 degrees at idle and 1400-1700 at wide open throttle. Personally, I would not use the gray stuff, but, it might last. I don't like the RemFlex because I have had them blow out on regular cars. They seemed to relax and then the exhaust gas burned it's way through to freedom and ruined the gasket. I realize some swear by them so I guess it might be 50-50
I used a thin coat of high temp and let it set over night to seal pits before cranking the car and prefer a thin FelPro because I think it will not relax as much, but? ??? ??? Opinions are a dime a dozen and we can always find one we like on the 'Net. It's kinda like a lottery. I find that it always can be done over again if one is highly motivated :D :D :D
You're right, many swear about product being good while others claimed the opposite.
What is your opinion on RJC turbo header gasket: https://rjcracing.com/product/gaskets/ (https://rjcracing.com/product/gaskets/)
This 3 bolt Milam gasket goes between the Turbo and the header. We specifically designed this gasket to provide a leak proof seal. Most other gaskets even the copper ones leak at this junction. 2 versions available. .63 turbine .83 turbine
I'm assuming my stock engine is a .63 turbine?
Thanks
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good
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You'd have to find someone that raced every weekend spring to fall with that RJC gasket to get their opinion on it.
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P.S. I’m taking a chance of just finished palm sander the turbo flange, before totally removing and have it done by a machine shop.
Before and after pictures of the turbo flange
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That turbo oil drain sure changed shape.
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That turbo oil drain sure changed shape.
For some reason when I uploaded the photo it rotated 180* and also there was still the original factory turbo oil drain gasket still attached. I had to used a double edge razor blade to remove it, as if the factory used some type of epoxy resin.
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I never saw one with any type of sealer on it...strange
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I cringe everytime I see ''use a belt sander to make it flat''
A belt sander will flat out, 100% NOT make anything flat. It would make a bunch of parrallel lines of uniform finish that are pleasing to the eye. But that part WILL NOT be flat.
As someone that that's machined my share of heads and manifolds, I can tell right off the bad when that part has been ''flattend'' on a belt sander. The leading edge will be low as hell on every single relief area and ten taper upwards as the debris turns into small roller bearings.
....then I have to make extra passes to get the damn thing to a machined surface (noticed I didn't say 'flat') and get rid of all the channels that could let pressure, fuel, or exhaust where it shouldn't go.
On that sanded exhaust flange, put some layout die on that surface and get a small cocaine mirror (flat enough to this) and rub it on there. It'll highlight all the low spots for you. Honestly, if that flange is actually warped from using a gasket in the past, and can't be machined correctly, the better plan of action would have been to peen the ears down with a hammer and leave the ID alone.
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Well I never made it to starting the engine since my previous threads stating that I had to repair the driver side header which had a crack.After installing the turbo flange gasket and wrestling with all the P.I.A. parts, I already had the DS header welded, drilled pilot hole at each ends of the crack to prevent from cracking, and added a piece of metal across the base of both exhaust ports for strength.Once the DS header was welded, I took a straight edge ruler and found the header to be warped.From the pictures I think the center exhaust port may shows a high spot, maybe others can chime of opinions.Monda y I will call a Machine shop to see if milling the head is possibleClick on photo to see full pictures
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Replaced the ds header after being resurface from machine shop, ran engine but still had some blm issue.
Keep in mind prior to the ds header leak I place a shop vac in the exhaust tail pipe and block off the other end, and used a soapy water solution and spray all engine exhaust area. The only area that was leaking was the turbo flange up pipe and also the ds header.
I repaired the turbo flange area and used the Remflex gasket and installed the ds header, ran the engine again, but still having high blm reading.
I again place the shop vac into the tailpipe, and block off the other end, to recheck engine exhaust system.
Now the pass. header is leaking as before it wasn't leaking, I glad I found the leak, but not happy since now I have to deal with the down pipe, and stubborn bolts that haven't been remove for about 20 years ago when I replaced the both header gaskets.
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Personally, I prefer to use the old dribble some engine top cleaner into the throttle body while it is running at about 1500 rpm...penny between the throttle stop and the arm to speed it up....and watch for smoke to come boiling out of any leaks. Transmission fluid smokes good as well, I think
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Took the pass header, without removing the turbo and without removing the downpipe, yes it took some maneuvering around, but I did remove the header from the top of the engine and not through the bottom end.
After cleaning the header, I put a straight edge and of course, this pass header is also warped.
So this coming Monday I will send it to the machine shop to be resurface, but in the meantime I will check for any cracks before Monday comes just to sure everything is ok to be resurface.
Will post again once everything is all put together.