IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Scoobum on July 22 2017, 09:38:22 AM
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This chip is loaded with 28 lbs of fuel. Was out testing last nite at the track with the new ignition module. Let the car get well into high gear. Laid into it. Fuel pressure at 60 PSI at 20 lbs boost. Came back to the trailer and checked the PL file. 02's at 772 on default...WTF. Threw 15 percent high gear fuel at it. Went back out...let it get well into high gear...and laid into it. 02's at 823. Went out for a 3rd time. Jumped on it off the line and kept an eye on the knock gauge through the 1/8th. Checked the PL file and 02's were just a tad over 800 at the 1/8th. Ambient air temp was 85 degrees with the humidity at 45 percent. Fuel pressure is 1 for 1...but with the 02's low...this pump is weakening. 02's should have been well into the 800's on default at only 20 PSI...with 28 lbs of fuel loaded into it.
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something is changing the laws of physics. If the fuel pressure is there, then the volume is there. Gonna be hard to blame it on the pump
Unlesss the gauge is bad
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Steve, I'm not hearing the pump come on as loud as before...you can barely hear it when you turn the key. PL file shows the 02's fall off drastically for a split second when spooling it up on that last run. 60 PSI doesn't make any sense to me either. Fuel filter is one year old. Better call my buddy at the speed shop and price a new fuel pressure gauge as well. This car is driving me nuts.
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Two things that happened at the track last nite. I drove the car around the return road to bring it up to temperature. As I let my foot off the throttle to turn around...it shut off for no reason. Started back up without issue. I noticed the fuel pressure would go to zero when shutting the car down a couple of times...normal ly it stays at base pressure. Check ball fukd...or something else?
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The fpr might be getting flakey. Might need a new rubber in it.
I'd put a new filter on it for giggles. A year is a long time.
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yes, that sound like the check ball.
If the fuel pressure drops any after the boost comes up, that is lack of pressure because the pump is not delivering the volume to maintain the pressure.
If your base pressure is 43, then the pressure should have gone to 63 for 20# of boost and stayed there. If it goes to 63 and falls back to 60, that is a sign of a weak pump.
Most of these gauges are accurate to plus/minus 5% and some are 10% (or worse). They get expensive fast as the accuracy rating goes up.
And as Rich said, sometimes the regulator is flaky as well. It is really hard to know what is going on due to the variables. If the voltage drops one volt, the pumps can lose 25% of their volume as well.
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Thanks for the input guys. I picked up a new fuel filter today and a pump should be here Wednesday latest. An AFPR would have to come from the lower 48...so we're looking for a 2 week wait if I need one. With the car shutting off for no reason, the check ball fukd, the 02's taking a quick drop on the spoolup and lower than normal 02's at WOT on only 20 PSI with 28 lbs of fuel in the chip with a crapload of fuel tossed at it in high gear makes me think the pump is failing.
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I'm gonna check for the voltage when the 02's dropped on spoolup on PL. If the volts fell off...then we have a different issue.
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Brad you need this pump http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS%2DG7W450EQ&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS%2DG7W450EQ&eq=&Tp=)
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I would think that pump would need a larger return line??
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That's in American dollars...so add 30 percent. I'd need the bigger line for the return. Jack has the quick disconnect set...but we're into even more money. I'd love to have all this stuff...but the funds just aren't there. I have several people helping me behind the scenes. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be able to race at all. I'm not complaining... but I have to nickel and dime everything...t here's no free lunch. There's no one else racing a TR up here every weekend...for good reason. Parts are tough to come by...and add 30 percent to everything...p lus shipping.
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Battery voltage is steady when the 02's dropped spooling it up and at WOT. 13.1 spooling and 15.2 at WOT with the Caspers volt booster.
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http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=DPA-510&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=DPA-510&eq=&Tp=)
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=RXP340M&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=RXP340M&eq=&Tp=)
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Do you know for sure that you have a 30R10 hose inside the tank?
If your short section isn't rated for submersion, you might have a cheap and easy fix.
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Do you know for sure that you have a 30R10 hose inside the tank?
If your short section isn't rated for submersion, you might have a cheap and easy fix.
Anytime I do a fuel pump change it's always the complete kit from Jack at Racetronix.
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That's in American dollars...so add 30 percent. I'd need the bigger line for the return. Jack has the quick disconnect set...but we're into even more money. I'd love to have all this stuff...but the funds just aren't there. I have several people helping me behind the scenes. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be able to race at all. I'm not complaining... but I have to nickel and dime everything...t here's no free lunch. There's no one else racing a TR up here every weekend...for good reason. Parts are tough to come by...and add 30 percent to everything...p lus shipping.
I find in my own experiences, that it is a lot more fun to nickle and dime it and learn what makes it all work. I find that a lot of people that throw money at the cars and buy all the cool stuff often don't have a clue how they work and they never have as much fun
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Brad i understand the budget part for sure. I'd use the factory feed as a return and a -8an feed. I'd be interested to see what the base pressure would be with stock lines. If it would stay 58-60psi you could have Eric set the chip up for it, it'd make 80lb injectors 96lbs. The pumps themselves are $125ish usd
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something is changing the laws of physics. If the fuel pressure is there, then the volume is there. Gonna be hard to blame it on the pump
Unlesss the gauge is bad
That is if everything is working as it should. I see it all the time at work the gauges read the right pressure but we don't have flow, this is usually caused by leaks. And of course because there is always lazy people they don't fix the leaks and turn up the pressure.
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Pump hasn't arrived...but I just dropped the tank out. Lines and hanger look fine. I swapped a new fuel filter in yesterday.
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something is changing the laws of physics. If the fuel pressure is there, then the volume is there. Gonna be hard to blame it on the pump
Unlesss the gauge is bad
That is if everything is working as it should. I see it all the time at work the gauges read the right pressure but we don't have flow, this is usually caused by leaks. And of course because there is always lazy people they don't fix the leaks and turn up the pressure.
We measure pressure in this case at the end of the rail which is after the last injector. If you have the correct pressure there, then the injectors will all be receiving the correct flow at that point in time UNLESS the gauge is reporting the wrong pressure and the correct pressure is NOT the correct pressure.
Come on, let's stick to the particular subject at hand. :D
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Steve mentioned it earlier that fuel pressure gauges...REAL GOOD ONES...ain't cheap. I have an Autometer and it checks in at 315 bucks...plus 13 percent sales tax. I'm sure there are better ones...but it's what I can afford. It was saying 60 lbs at WOT last Friday nite with the base pressure at 44. Whether the 60 lbs is accurate...is up for discussion.
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I would think it's right. Therefore, I would start with the assumption that the flow is not there. You can check all the hoses for kinks, collapses, and/or leaks, but your path of swapping pumps first is probably the easiest step and it allows you to make sure you have a good hose in the tank that is well clamped.
I would expect good pumps to last for years...but?
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I was talking to a friend that's the lead wrench on a Super Stock team last nite. He seems to think that race gas shortens a pumps life.
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I had a look at the in tank hose and it's well clamped and appears fine.
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We measure pressure in this case at the end of the rail which is after the last injector. If you have the correct pressure there, then the injectors will all be receiving the correct flow at that point in time UNLESS the gauge is reporting the wrong pressure and the correct pressure is NOT the correct pressure.
Come on, let's stick to the particular subject at hand. :D
That is a function of shift work, especially getting off of nights. So, your saying there is a leak in the rail? :D
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No
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Went to remove the pump from the hanger...and the purge hole on the bottom had some white...what seemed like material that looked a lot like what the sock is made from covering it. Regardless...t he new pump is going in.
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Twisted the key...heard it come on...and fired it up. We'll test it Saturday morning during dial ins. Thanks for everyones help so far.
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I forget does Jack warranty his stuff? I know getting tech support used to be a hassle at times. My racetronix leaks down and takes a second wack of the key to prime, but once it's running it's fine 58-60psi.
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Same shit...low 02's in high gear on default with low boost. SM decided to take a crap. There's a practice next Friday. I'll swap the ECM out. If it pulls the same shit, then I'm parting ways with it. My patience is wearing thin.
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What is the wideband saying Brad?
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Won't calibrate. I assume the sensor is fukd.
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for the moment, to heck with the O2 numbers. Does the pressure match the boost?
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1 for 1. I have a million PL files with the 02's around 820 on 20-22 PSI on default high gear fuel. All of a sudden it's 770-780. I swapped in another 02 sensor at the track. No difference.
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Okay, so you fixed O2s at idle, you fixed fuel pressure at a given boost, and you have searched for air leaks (including exhaust leaks?)
At wide open throttle, to my knowledge anyway, the maf is ignored.
Remaining possibilities that I can think of are maybe ecm (kinda doubt it), dirty injectors, and higher air density.
Given that the nb O2 is not linear and we have no idea what the actual difference may be, I agree this is time that a wb could be useful.
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I'm gonna look at more PL files...but here's some info. I'm getting huge 02 dropouts at idle...and spoolup. I watched the 02's today when idling at the trailer. They stayed in the 760's for a couple of minutes and fattened up to 850's. Let's see what the MAF is doing during these dropouts.
Humidity was 32 percent today. NA cars were running 2 to 3 tenths quicker...the air was THAT good. That could be leaning it out. Temp was 78 degrees.
Injectors are new.
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MAF appears normal. Huge 02 dropouts coming off the line about 6-10 miles per hour...and spoolup.
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The only time I've seen this engine run leaner is in the fall air. low 50's for temp and low 30's for humidity. That's the only time I've had to add fuel. Steve is there anywhere to find out how 'clean' the air was at Shannonville Ontario today? It was 78 degrees...and when the sun went in it damn near felt cold.
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http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php (http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php)
Don't know if they have your track. How did the mph stack up?
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it's about 66 F right now, humidity is pretty high in the 60 something percent range now
here is the hourly https://www.accuweather.com/en/ca/shannonville/k0k/hourly-weather-forecast/2290923 (https://www.accuweather.com/en/ca/shannonville/k0k/hourly-weather-forecast/2290923)
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I was tracking temp and humidity this morning and it was 78F and 32 percent humidity. Jeremy...no idea. I waited till it got into high gear...and then matted it for about 2 seconds. I wanted get a look at the high gear fueling...and not blow it up. I wanted to go back out with high gear fuel added...but the fukn SM took a dump...so I couldn't adjust fuel/timing. I'm not having any luck.
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I use a small spade connector in the front of the ALDL port for the SM. It came out at the track. Tried plugging it back in...but nothing from the SM. I'll try hard wiring it in the rear of the ALDL tomorrow.
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Is your chip a 5.7 version? If so you can adjust fueling via the laptop using PL. way easier than the throttle stomp method.
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it's about 66 F right now, humidity is pretty high in the 60 something percent range now
LOL Low in GA is 100 percent
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This is where we're at. New fuel pump. new injectors, new fuel filter. Hot wire fuel pump harness is inspected and fine. Racetronix fuel injector hot wire kit. Caspers volt booster.
On the first run yesterday I matted it well into high gear and at 20 psi the fuel pressure was 60.
I went back out with the boost turned to 23 and the fuel pressure went to 63...so the boost and fuel pressure are 1 to 1.
I swapped in another 02 sensor...no change.
LAST week I bumped the high gear fuel to 142. The car went 98 mph through the traps on 20 psi with the 02's checking in at 802. I had a spotter watch the exhaust at the 330 foot mark and it was clean...so the 02's appear to be correct.
The ECM runs the whole show...so we'll swap it out and retry Friday nite. If it pushed a head gasket towards the intake side I would expect to see the idle BLM's jump up...but they remain at 118.
I'm open to suggestions as to what's wrong.
02's on this car are always around 820 at 20 to 22 psi on default. I always have to pull fuel...not add it.
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Jason, I'm gonna tap into the wire behind the ALDL...and try and get the SM working again...and I'll make sure it's seeing 12 volts. If it's fukd I'll have to learn how to adjust fuel/timing via PL.
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Okay...just got off the phone with Jason. Last week when I added fuel to bump the 02's the WOT BLM's are pegged at 142. An earlier file for an 1/8th mile blast from this year shows the WOT BLM's in high gear at 120. I'm seeing runs in high gear of 120 to 124...normally ...on default fuel. This thing's now throwing a crapload of fuel at it in high gear...correct? Jason and I both think that the 02 sensor would have to see a huge pre turbo exhaust leak. My gut tells me the ECM is fukd. Chime in guys...put your 2 cents in.
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yep, it is obviously adding fuel.
As your fuel pressure is good, then it would seem to be either a bad O2 sensor, or a leak. Strange thing is that exhaust leak affect tends to diminish above 3000 rpm because the exhaust pulses are closer together and there is less time for air to be drawn back into the pipe.
I know you just changed the sensor because the difference in O2s at idle which seemed to go away when you put the new Denso in, but I would be tempted to swap again.
I guess I would check the pcv valve and make sure it is still working as well as check under the turbo mounting flange to make sure it is not blowing out big time there...as well as the headers themselves.
be sure the vacuum block is still sealing to the plenum, etc.
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I assume you've disconnected/reconnected the ecm, reseated the chip, is the maf locked at 255 on that chip? Vent line plugged so the fuel tank can't breathe?
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I assume you've disconnected/reconnected the ecm, reseated the chip, is the maf locked at 255 on that chip? Vent line plugged so the fuel tank can't breathe?
Jeremy, the vent line looked fine when I had the tank down to swap the pump. Battery was disconnected for the pump swap. MAF is locked at 255...it appears the same from files before and now.
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yep, it is obviously adding fuel.
As your fuel pressure is good, then it would seem to be either a bad O2 sensor, or a leak. Strange thing is that exhaust leak affect tends to diminish above 3000 rpm because the exhaust pulses are closer together and there is less time for air to be drawn back into the pipe.
I know you just changed the sensor because the difference in O2s at idle which seemed to go away when you put the new Denso in, but I would be tempted to swap again.
I guess I would check the pcv valve and make sure it is still working as well as check under the turbo mounting flange to make sure it is not blowing out big time there...as well as the headers themselves.
be sure the vacuum block is still sealing to the plenum, etc.
I'll order another 02 sensor in the morning...will be here Tuesday. I'll go over the exhaust and intake. I cleaned the PCV valve about a week ago with carb cleaner. If you blow through it extremely hard a SLIGHT bit of air will get through.
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Normal, I think
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Got the SM working. There was a break in the power wire somewhere. DS header and crossover comes off tomorrow for inspection. Dan handed me a pair of gaskets a couple weeks back. Anytime I have a problem, Dan drops what he's doing and opens his shop doors or hands me any spare parts he has to keep me going.
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Not apples to apples. But, the wagon went lean all of a sudden at WOT at the track a few weeks back, and I couldn't figure out why until today. Stuck a pressure transducer on it and saw the pressure drop 10% (6psi) - that makes small injectors, dangerously small injectors. The Error % between Commanded Equivalence Ratio and WBO2 is representative of the lean condition.
For your power level you really should be logging more data.
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I've run this combination for years...and it's run nails. I'm having a run of bad luck. Inspected the turbo flange gasket...it's fine. The DS header weld looks like it's hanging in there after 15 years...can't see any cracks. The gaskets around the plenum etc appear okay. The header gaskets appear okay as well. I can't hear any exhaust leaks. I was under the car a couple weeks back and had my hand around the header flanges and couldn't feel any leaks. I'm kicking myself in the ass I didn't have the spare ECM with me.
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Steve...if you go back a few replies you'll see I swapped out to ANOTHER new 02 sensor at the track...and I said no change. I'm trying to jog my memory if I swapped it after the first or second run when I bumped up the boost to see if the fuel pressure followed. What I CAN tell you is when I swapped it out and fired it up...the 02's hovered in the 760's for a minute or so...and then went into the 850's and stayed there. I was so pissed off I honestly can't remember.
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Here's the game plan for Friday. At Steves request I ordered another Denso 02 sensor. Arrived today and I installed it. Broke out the spare ECM and got it working with PL. If the car comes up short for 02's with the new sensor...then I'll swap the other ECM in and give it a whirl. One thing I learned early on with these cars is make one change at a time. If that doesn't fix it...then we'll toss a Molotov cocktail in it and break out the marshmallows and wienies.
I've never seen this car push me like it has the past 4 weeks. I cleaned off the PC board on the other ECM...installe d it...nothing. Pulled it back out and cleaned it again. Install it...and it says trouble codes across the top. I call bullshit...act ually, I yelled it. Check the SM...no MAL codes. Hit clear codes on PL...no go. Shut PL down...restart ...same shit. Restart PL...no codes...and the graphs start moving...all good. Fuck I hate these cars...
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You need to 1) Take a deep breath 2) Put a case of wine in the trunk/boot 3) put the G/F in the passenger seat 4) Drive west til you find a mountain with 12 hrs of sunshine 4) Stay there until the wine is gone....all will be right for those with a case of wine in the trunk.
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After four 02 sensor changes...the high gear fuel and BLM's returned to normal. The three other 02 sensors I swapped I purchased in bulk a few years ago...and forgot about them. If I was a betting man. I'd say there was a bad run of them, and I just happened to buy a few. Thanks for everyones help.
Hot lapped the car this morning for 3 runs to semi get a bead on it for Round 1. Had to pretty much guess for a dial...and was a tenth off...and went out in Round 1.
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Glad you got it sorted out!