IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: motorhead on January 16 2012, 11:54:26 AM
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Just thought I would share some highlights/milestones in my on going TT/EFI build for my MCSS. Basically it is going to be a twin turbo 355 SBC, with a 200-4R and a set of 4.56s in the back. Full details are here: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/the-turbo-'builds'-board/'87-monte-carlo-ss-ttefi-build/ (http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/the-turbo-'builds'-board/'87-monte-carlo-ss-ttefi-build/) (you may have to sign up to see the pics) because rewriting this over and over is lame.
But, if you have questions just ask. Comments will be kept to yourself... damn peanut gallery.
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More...
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So why 4.56's when the normal idea is to load turbos so they will spool easily and make some boost?
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I was wondering why you chose a 200R4?
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Gents both fair questions.
1) 4.56s because that is what is currently in the rearend and I am not funded to change them at this time. Although I want to go numerically lower. It should be noted that I am running a 28" tall tire, and considering going to a 30" tall tire in the future.
2) The 200-4R is also existing and is pretty well built. I am seriously thinking about going to a manual trans when funds allow.
Previously this engine would rev out to 6500rpm and go 110mph in the quarter NA and hit 116mph on a 100 shot of nitrous. The gears are good for about 120mph in 3rd at this same RPM +/-. It will be interesting to see what effect the turbine side of the turbos have on the powerband; I am prediciting that they will draw the RPM down some despite the Vortec heads being vastly superior to the 8445s on the Buick V6. In the future I'll be looking to larger turbos with larger exhaust housings to offset this problem.
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well, LC ran 4.11s in "Black" in the old days and was one of the fastest at the time with 28" tires as I recall. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and I understand the economics.
Nice looking set up. It's good to see someone jumping in from scratch. It used to be the normal way before we started buying recipes.
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Thanks, Steve. This project has been a long time coming (6 years of planning and parts collection) and I finally worked up enough nerve to tear into a car that was running pretty well overall. Building crap with my own hands is probably the most rewarding part of the work.
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it always is...
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Got a little more work done over the last few days, specifically on the downpipe and some minor system adjustments. There were definitely some things to take into consideration when putting the downpipe together, not just the physical bits that get in the way or the distance around those things that are heat sensitive (fluids, rubber/plastics and electronics); but also the functionality of the piece and surrounding components. Things like accessing the power steering cap or being able to install the front header bolt which also holds the brace to the turbine inlet flange. In the end it worked out if not for looking a little askew. Overall the clearances are good.
Onto the passenger side...
Oh and I started dinking around with the air filter placement/routing.
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One more...
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good thread.
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is this an old school SBC?
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is this an old school SBC?
It is. Based on a Gen I (Mexican cast and built) 4-bolt main Goodwrench crate SBC with Vortec heads (semi Gen II).
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The more askew a turbo car looks, the more impressive it becomes to onlookers! Weld it up well and take your time grinding the welds smooth and it will draw plenty of oohs and ahs....
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Are those nylocks on the exhaust input flange bolts? Won't those melt?
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They are actually nylock nuts from a GM brake booster used to hold the master cylinder in place; and they are only there for mock-up purposes. The factory locking nuts are a PITA to re&re.
Steve, I am just going to wrap the pipes with insulation so there won't be any need to grind the welds down. LOL!
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Clearly it has been a few days since I posted an update... but its not like I have been sitting on my hands. Like the driver's side the goal was to honour all of the stock parts and their locations on the passenger's side; including the starter, accessory drive system, belt, transmission cooler lines and coolant overflow tank. Also like the driver's side the downpipe passing under the header is near to the spark plug boots and will have to be dimpled for clearance, as well the upper control arm or downpipe will have to be clearanced too.
In keeping with my goal of having this all fit under the stock hood, or at the very least the stock hood line, you can see how the exhaust is routed/kept under the body line that accepts the hood's under bracing. And, yes. The hood does close.
On to the oiling system and intercooler(s) etc...
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Twins!
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So I picked up an Edelbrock intake elbow (P/N #3848) and the adapter plate to run a 75mm LS1 throttle body. This is all connected to a 3.5" up-pipe/merge; the merge goes from two 2.5" intercooler charge pipes and transitions into a 3.5" merge. There is a pseudo-boost brace/support bracket under the up-pipe. The charge pipes come from twin Ford Turbo Coupe intercoolers (the inlets are being modified to accept a 2.5" diameter section of pipe) which will be fed by the turbos (duh.). I need my "guy" to get back from vacation to TIG up the aluminum pipes. The intercoolers are hung off of the frame, core support and bumper brackets. If my understanding of automotive fluid/aero dynamics is correct I can take advantage of a high pressure area under the nose of the car (same one that causes these cars to lift the front end at speed) and a low pressure area at the front of the wheel well openings or inside the engine bay (same one that the radiator uses) to channel air across the cores. I can also pretty easily seal the intercoolers to the underside off the nose/core support using some thick/flexible plastic sheathing (kind of like a belly pan). Or I can add air dams to the back side of the intercoolers to help force air up through the cores.
It looks like I'll be changing the plugs through the inner fenders... probably still easier than doing them on an LT1 or LS1 F-body. LOL.
As you can see general hood clearance is good even with that nitrous plate underneath the intake elbow. Amazingly other than cutting the accessory bracket to fit the header nothing (of use) has been cut-up, moved or deleted.
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Looks good!
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Awesome project! You have more guts (and skillz) than me. What compression ratio do you think you have?
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Thanks!
The compression ratio is around 9.4:1 the last time I calc'd it... but could be lower depending how far down the hole the pistons sit, and if I knew how thick the head gaskets were. LOL! This is the reason I wanted to run a factory style EFI system with a knock sensor to show me the limits so that I can safely tune the engine.
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tune it with cam duration! :icon_smile:
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very nice!!!!
not gonna use a heater? I thought you where up north?
lookin good
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Heater might be added back in... just smaller than original.
Steve, the cam in the motor isn't ideal for boost... but, then again this is just a hodge-podge of parts collected over the years.
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I understand. Just suggesting that if the compression turns out a little high, you can add some duration and make it work :)
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I understand. Just suggesting that if the compression turns out a little high, you can add some duration and make it work :)
I am tracking. There is a really good thread about using duration to bleed off compression on SpeedTalk.com. The cam in this engine has 292 advertised duration... so maybe that is a good thing?
Basically this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-K1106/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-K1106/)
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with 234, I don't think the compression will be a hindrance at all
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Yeah, I just went searching the SpeedTalk archives and found that a 114 LSA and that much duration should make for a good streetable turbo cam; not that it wasn't a streetable N/A cam to begin with.
When the time comes to start building up the next shortblock for this car I'll be grabbing a moderate solid/hyd roller cam that is properly sensible.
After I get this setup up and running I'll start looking into larger exhaust housings to begin reducing the backpressure. At 10 to 15psi the stockers will work okay; however anything over that is going to become a choke point. Chances are those larger exhaust housings will be attached to larger turbos, naturally snowballing the entire build. I am strongly considering installing bungs in the exhaust stream to allow for a backpressure testing system which is basically a length of steel line and a pressure gauge pre-turbo or post turbo (not that I am worried about the 3" downpipes being a problem).
Oh! on the topic of little victories I plumbed in the oil pressure feed block and TPI's factory oil pressure switch last night. I will see if I can't run the factory (87 MCSS) oil pressure gauge sender too; have the ports available in the distribution block but failed to check for possible fitment of said sender. Anyway this means I can buy the lines/fittings this weekend and plumb these and the returns in.
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i love it
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Thanks!
Holy crap I hate cars...
While welding one of the -10 AN drain fittings to the crusty old oil pan I managed to blow through the thin spots over and over again; JB Weld is now hiding my indiscretions. I still have the other side to go and it is uglier. Frig.
In other news the turbo oil feed lines are done and look okay. Not very sexy unfortunately; so no pics for now.
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Great project Mike - thanks for detailing it.
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Great project Mike - thanks for detailing it.
No worries, glad to share. I am getting better feedback here than on sites dedicated to custom turbo builds.
I finished up the other drain fitting tonight... what a PITA.
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What do you expect? We're the best!
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I managed to blow through the thin spots over and over again;
Hmmm...Big chunk of copper behind?
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I managed to blow through the thin spots over and over again;
Hmmm...Big chunk of copper behind?
If the pan wasn't still attached to the motor (and in the car) sure. But, if I had the pan out it would be a different result anyway since I wouldn't be welding over my head and crying like a little girl with a skinned knee due to the spatter.
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Ronnie Johns - Chopper - Harden the Fuck Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y#ws)
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that spatter makes me cuss as well as cry
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I wouldn't be welding over my head and crying like a little girl with a skinned knee due to the spatter.
Where's Canadiangirl with the cam- we missed a youtube moment!
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I need to harden the fuck up...
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I got my intercoolers and pipes back from the speed shop; they look good. And less than a two day turn around! :o
Cost? Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch.
It pays to be good to the guys behind the counter.
I'll post pics when I get home from Kentucky... I'd better get some fried chicken or I am gonna be pissed.
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Not much in the way of exciting news... but, I did go to a KFC in Kentucky.
However, here are some pics of the oiling system for the turbos (5/16" main line off the oil filter housing to 1/4" feeds to the centre sections) and the return side of the fuel system (5/16" stock TPI parts reworked/adapted to the factory 5/16" feed line from the Monte Carlo). I need to pick up some 5/16" fuel injection line to finish the connection to the factory hard line on the frame. I had to dent the PS valvecover to fit the Accufab fuel pressure regulator.
I've also emptied the gas tank; and once the 36" snow drift melts outside the garage door I can pull it out and add the new GN-style hanger and 255lph pump.
You can also see the intercoolers and pipes are welded up.
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Looks good Mike. Give a little thought on your fuel system if you plan on maxing out the twin turbos.
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Looks good Mike. Give a little thought on your fuel system if you plan on maxing out the twin turbos.
Thanks.
The Accufab regulator is 5/16" on the return same as the stock Turbo Regal. The potential BSFC will be higher with a V8 (more injectors) so less fuel should be returning to the tank. That said I have looked at running a Saginaw to AN adapter so that I can run a more appropriately sized return line once this system gets too big for it britches. Assuming all things are equal the engine making 500ish hp (~10-14psi) is right around where a Turbo Regal begins to out grow its stock return line. In the meantime having the fuel pressure hang up a bit with smaller injectors under boost isn't going to be a bad thing (necessarily).
Unless you are talking about the single pump not being enough... then you are also correct in that regard too. I'll add a second pump later. FWIW, the feed line is a E85 -10 AN ready beast.
Sometimes I really hate running a project on a restricted budget; especially when I know better.
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I know a few who twin turbo'ed smallblocks with injectors and also carbed blowthru setups. They have a real thirst for fuel regardless of what the calculator says. They started like you then went AN-8 or AN-10 lines with Aeromotive and Weldon pumps. Also 55lb + injectors were needed. Just be careful with whatever fuel/ign mgt you are using. The engine starts off nice then leans out so fast it may be hard to save. Smallblocks rev much faster then our Buicks
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Noted. Thanks I appreciate the input.
I am using a factory 7730 TPI ECM with a chip for 24pph injectors (running stock Turbo Regal 28pph for now) with propane on top of this to get the car up and running. I'll get into burning my own chips for larger injectors at a later date. I am just looking to get it running this year not set any records.
Oh and I just got back in from the garage - it turns out the stock feed line was 3/8" not 5/16". Sort of good news excluding the fact that adapting the 5/16" Saginaw outlet from the FPR to a 3/8" line isn't super easy. I have the parts to redo most of what I have now in 3/8" Saginaw now, just not an adapter from the FPR to hardline. I have some things to take into consideration.
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More babble about fuel line sizing and horsepower: http://www.mrgasket.com/Portals/0/downloads/mallory/pdf/Mallory_Instructions_fuel_rail_kit_tpi_4311M.pdf (http://www.mrgasket.com/Portals/0/downloads/mallory/pdf/Mallory_Instructions_fuel_rail_kit_tpi_4311M.pdf)
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Seems like an expensive solution to a simple problem:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AER-FBM2915/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AER-FBM2915/)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-220009/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-220009/)
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More babble about fuel line sizing and horsepower: http://www.mrgasket.com/Portals/0/downloads/mallory/pdf/Mallory_Instructions_fuel_rail_kit_tpi_4311M.pdf (http://www.mrgasket.com/Portals/0/downloads/mallory/pdf/Mallory_Instructions_fuel_rail_kit_tpi_4311M.pdf)
Sh*tty looking welds mr gasket. They charge enough to make it pretty.
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I've been meaning to build a laptop (netbook in this case) mount for years. So this weekend I finally did. It works in both my G-bodies and in Natasha's Camaro. Everything is 1/8" cold rolled plate or DOM tube and 3/8" cold rolled rod. It is adjustable between 15" and 20" with a minimum 5" inside the female receiver tube at all times (LOL); I can increase this length if I add another locking bolt further down (may have to if I adapt this to work in the TBSS). The base is mounted to the front seat rails in both cars.
It is ergonomically and anthropometric ally designed for both the driver and passenger to use it. Meaning I can comfortably one hand type while driving and the passenger fits in their seat unobstructed, or the passenger can just sit there and make the adjustments to the car while the driver... um... drives.
I should also add that I can rock the car back and forth with it, it is that sturdy.
I can take closer pics of it's details once I am done painting it (Tremclad semi-gloss black).
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Would you mind taking a pic of it out of the car Mike? I'd like to see how you made it. :icon_smile:
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Would you mind taking a pic of it out of the car Mike? I'd like to see how you made it. :icon_smile:
Gladly.
I have to flip it over and paint the top tonight so I'll try and do it then.
Hint: triangulation. ;)
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2nd coat of brush on Tremclad complete; looks like crap. I like it - because now I am not going to cry when I scratch it. :rock: I am also going to look for a way to mount up my MTX-L wideband to this as well.
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Thanks Mike. It gives me a little better idea of how you mounted it. :icon_smile: That was what I was trying to figure out. :atbeer:
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After the apocalypse - the only thing left will be cockroaches, and that laptop stand.
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No worries!
Tremclad... the poor man's powercoat.
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Well I am finally back at it. I fabbed up the braided -6 AN lines to the fuel rails last night and clearanced the PS UCA for the 3" downpipe so that I can better fit the plug wire boots. I also figured out how I am going to hang the downpipes off the engine (this way the only support isn't the turbo exhaust housings) and where the other v-bands are going to go. Unfortunately there is going to be a lot of work involved when I want to service the spark plugs, as pretty much everything is going to have to come off to get to them. I've got the next 4 days of to work on this thing... other than racing the Buick on Sunday.
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If anyone is reading this I am going to bounce a theory out there and see if it sticks:
Tricking the ECM to run on E85 without changing the chip calibrations.
How you ask? By using the simulated narrow band (NB) output of my MTX-L WB02 sensor. The cool thing about this WB02 is you can set stoich to whatever you want via the provided software and the MTX-L will output the NB voltage in the factory favoured 0-1V range. So, if I set the MTX-L for E85 (stoich 9.76:1), during closed-loop operation the ECM will see it as Gas stoich (14.7:1) and attempt to maintain that target air fuel ratio (TAF) because of the output NB voltage still being in the correct scale.
Now, there is a catch as I see it... the stock gas rated injectors, in this case 28pph, will have to be upgraded due to the increased fuel demands of E85. This difference between the two fuels, as a rule of thumb, is 1.47; so the new injectors will have to be around 42pph to deliver the appropriate fuel flow to meet what is being demanded by the ECM to maintain stoich (via the programmed VE table).
And then there is the fun part: WOT. Where (as I understand it) the ECM will switch over to open-loop and then pays little attention to the NB signal for fuel correction. This is where we can tune with rising rate fuel pressure and supplementary fuel systems (ie. propane or methanol injection) to ensure that the TAF is achieved. Here datalogs for RPM, KR, timing and AFR will have to be made to ensure that the engine doesn't go lean; or go boom.
I am using a '91 Camaro Speed Density set up which means no MAF correction to worry about either. This thread sort of confirms my theory: http://www.delcohacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1248#p13623 (http://www.delcohacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1248#p13623)
Finally, I am going to start looking for an appropriate aftermarket DFI setup to use. However, I am still very much in favour of keeping the factory EFI system due to its knock sensing ability.
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Doing the final welding on all the exhaust parts... this is going to take a while due to all the pie cuts. I can't wait to hide all of the welding spatter from the flux core with some titanium header wrap.
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You really need to invest in a gas tank Mike. Flux sucks to say the least. The MIG I've been using has an Argon/CO2 mix and the welds are really nice and solid. :D
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You really need to invest in a gas tank Mike. Flux sucks to say the least. The MIG I've been using has an Argon/CO2 mix and the welds are really nice and solid. :D
I actually have one... got it years ago when I bought my '91 Z28 and had to fix the rusted strut towers.
The fact of the matter is that I am using a really shitty welder (110V 88A @ 20% DC) and on full-blast it just manages to do 1/8" plate... but, I have to be very deliberate with the torch. I get much better penetration with flux despite the shortcomings of my welder. Flux also allows me to more easily weld exhaust pipe because it isn't so sensitive to rust and oil. If you know anything about mandrel bent exhaust parts they come covered inside and out with oil/light grease due to the mandrel bending process, and you can only reach so far down a tube to clean it out; add heat and the oil starts moving around. I am pretty good at removing spatter and also have spatter guard to spray on whatever I don't want all gross.
I am really thinking about getting one of those TIG and plasma combos from Eastwood like Steve Wood has; actually I think Steve just has the plasma cutter? But, I want a hoist more.
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plasma cutter
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Never had an issue with either one of ours welding just about anything Mike. Even if it's got some oil on it the welds seem to be penatrating and look pretty decent. Did have an issue with the last wire unit when the feed went wonky though. The new unit works a whole lot better but it's a 220 unit VS the old 110 unit.
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I was spoiled growing up when I had access to my Dad's shops and all the tools... including a really nice 220V MIG welder which I sucked at using. I was comparing my 10 year old welds to what I am doing now with this dinky hobby shop unit and really wish I had access to a better welder. I figure I'll acquire better tools over time as my skills improve.
Regardless, all of the exhaust parts are now finished. Some need to be painted in high temp paint and baked (I am going to use our BBQ... LOL), others need to be thermally wrapped as well. I'll need to build some heat shields for next to the foot wells, as this lovely old engine loves to leak a little oil and we don't want that soaking into the header wrap.
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Instead of the BBQ you could always build a solar oven Mike. Pretty simple to make them and they can heat up enough to cook meat safely but slowly after all. We made them in scouts as kids and it would suprise you how well they can work. :rock:
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Instead of the BBQ you could always build a solar oven Mike. Pretty simple to make them and they can heat up enough to cook meat safely but slowly after all. We made them in scouts as kids and it would suprise you how well they can work. :rock:
He could carry his tools in a fanny pack too, but I don't think he would do that. :p
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I built a hobo stove a few months ago that kicked the crap out of some of my soldiers fancy jet heaters. Cost me less than $5 to make (including the fuel) and I got some Vienna sausages out of the deal.
Actually that reminds me... I have a propane space heater and an old tank (literally an old tank that they won't refill) of propane. I could just use that and keep car parts out of where my food goes.
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Nothing like a vacation that feels nothing like a vacation... those were my last four days "off".
Anyway it looks like everything is coming together. The exhaust fabrication is complete with everything fitted and all the welding done... coating and wrapping those parts will come later. Today I decided that I should start laying out all of the sensors, accessories, bobbles and cables... essentially everything that will be needed to make this thing run. I also pulled out the complete ECM harness, HVAC controls and some other things I have no clue what they were for - LOL. The only thing still under the hood are the headlights and horn wiring.
I have also decided that I am going to get a mini-starter to offset some of the weight I added over the nose... because this original unit is friggin' heavy. I should also add that changing the detent cable is a bitch... I switched out the carb'd one or the EFI style from a Turbo Buick as it is noticeably longer (and both cars have forward facing throttle bodies). You'll also notice that there is a cruise control unit under the hood now, I am going to have a little luxury even if I can't have AC right now.
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Just placed a call about a used 33lb aluminum propane cylinder from a forklift.
How badass would that be to see in the trunk? ;)
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Just placed a call about a used 33lb aluminum propane cylinder from a forklift.
How badass would that be to see in the trunk? ;)
What; now you are going camping with the car?
AJ___
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Just placed a call about a used 33lb aluminum propane cylinder from a forklift.
How badass would that be to see in the trunk? ;)
What; now you are going camping with the car?
AJ___
Grumpy? Is that you, Dan?
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Okay new question... maybe some of the farmers/engineers out there can help with this one?
I am thinking of using some SAE 100R1AT hydraulic line (3600psi WP) from a company called Pulsar (the part number is 111-03 - http://www.greenlinehose.com/_pdf/pulsar/Hose.pdf (http://www.greenlinehose.com/_pdf/pulsar/Hose.pdf) on page 6). This doesn't say if it will work with gasoline, it simply states "petroleum based" fluids (which gasoline tends to be).
If you look at the Eaton-Aeroquip catalog it doesn't indicate the application either...
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1n54v/HoseSectionforMainEa/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thecatalogroom.com%2FEaton-Aeroquip.html (http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1n54v/HoseSectionforMainEa/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thecatalogroom.com%2FEaton-Aeroquip.html) - on page 30
However, if you look at this page it does state gasoline as an application (Application: Gasoline, fuel and lubricating oils, air and water.):
http://aeroquip.cc/gh663-04aeroquiphydraulichosesae100r1atgh663-4.aspx (http://aeroquip.cc/gh663-04aeroquiphydraulichosesae100r1atgh663-4.aspx)
So is this a safe, or unsafe, venture on my part?
As an aside, I don't think that running LPG through this product is going to be an issue.
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don't see a problem, myself
you can drop them a line and ask for insurance
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Same as Steve. Don't see any issues with the hose but contact them for insurance.
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Roger that. Thanks guys... I'll follow up in the AM.
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Dug the book.
AJ___
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Thanks, AJ. Looks like I need to read further next time... and it doesn't look like this hose is going to be LPG safe, or at least recommended per pages 351-352.
EDIT: Actually the material is safe, it is the hose the isn't being recommended due to certain hose certifications . http://www.greenlinehose.com/_pdf/hose/14.TechSpecs.pdf#search=%22propane%22 (http://www.greenlinehose.com/_pdf/hose/14.TechSpecs.pdf#search=%22propane%22) on page 171
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Check with JayC on the big board Mike. Cal would also be someone in the know. Both of them have worked on LPG systems before and they may be able to help you.
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Check with JayC on the big board Mike. Cal would also be someone in the know. Both of them have worked on LPG systems before and they may be able to help you.
Yeah, I am dealing with adapting one of Jay's old kits to the car.
Seems that the CGA certification for Type III hoses (which are for full bore LPG automotive conversions) includes:
■■ Inner Tube - Thermoplastic.
■■ Reinforcement - Stainless Steel braid over a textile braid.
■■ Cover - Oil Resistant Perforated Synthetic Rubber.
■■ Rated for 350 PSI at temperatures from -40° to 200° F.
■■ Hydraulically crimped non-reusable hose ends.
■■ Hydrostaticall y tested at 1.5 times the working pressure and CGA tagged with the test date.
The funny thing is most certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on... until it comes time to sue. Just looking at the figures presented, and comparing them to the ones from the hose I have in hand, I can't see how there is a much of a risk involved in using it? Especially for such a light duty LPG injection system (150psi regulated).
Here are the specs for Type II:
■■ Inner Tube - Black Nitrile Tube
■■ Reinforcement - Stainless Steel braid over a textile braid
■■ Cover - Oil Resistant Textile cover impregnated with Neoprene
■■ Rated for 350 PSI at temperatures from -40° to 200°F
■■ UL approved for use w/ LP gas MH8393
■■ Two piece manually installed hose ends
■■ Hydrostaticall y tested at 1.5 times the working pressure and CGA tagged with the test date
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Got a little done this weekend between weeding my front lawn and shopping.
In short: I mocked up the throttle cable/TV cable/cruise cable bracket and you can see the potential connector for the throttle cable hanging off the throttlebody; I have an alternate if this doesn't work out. The MAP sensor is in (drilled and tapped the feed in the elbow), as are the cooling fan switches, and the IAT/MAT is in the up-pipe. From here I can start running the wires for all the sensors.
Next I took some time to run the hoses for the supplementary fuel systems. Gasoline and propane will be injected at different stages as boost rises. I am thinking about getting my hands on a progressive controller for the propane. The propane is currently setup as a dual stage system with a large solenoid at the tank controlling the -4AN main line (under the up-pipe merge) and a smaller solenoid controlling the secondary injection (which happens to be a nitrous plate spray bar). The gasoline is running through the other side of the plate which is good for +/-100hp worth of fuel this will be triggered off of a (Hobbs?) switch at 1psi give or take. This should be plenty of additional fuel and octane to run the car up to 500hp at the crank on top of the 28pph injectors that will be going in (42pphs will be substituted if I run E85).
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Mounted up the new throttle cable last night, being from a 3rd Gen F-body it took a little grinding to get it to fit through the firewall. But we now can gain full control over the throttle body! I also mounted up the cruise control module and ran that cable; I may have to shorten the slider bracket at the throttle body to get more than 25% throttle angle... before I do this I need to determine what the factory range is supposed to be as I don't believe it is supposed to get to WOT with the cruise control on. Lastly I rigged up the connector for the TV cable at the throttle body, seems that I am going to have to measure out 78* of travel for proper TV actuation (as seen here: http://news.compperformance.com/Instructions/gm_tv_cable_adjust.pdf (http://news.compperformance.com/Instructions/gm_tv_cable_adjust.pdf))
I am also ordering up the 4000ppm VSS adapter from Jags That Run needed for the 1991 ECM I am running. http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/SpeedSensors_Speedometer.html (http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/SpeedSensors_Speedometer.html) (P/N 4PAC)
There is already a 2000ppm VSS mounted in the Monte's dash cluster that will drive the '91 cruise control.
Next I move onto hybrid wiring the 1991 electronics into the 1987 electronics - some stuff is very similar, other stuff not so much.
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My VSS from jagsthatrun.co m showed up today and it looks good.
Also sandblasted and painted up some stock Buick wastegates over the weekend. Big thanks to Paul Beal for hooking me up with one he had laying around. Because of how the turbos are clocked there is going to be a need to alter the far end of the arm to get it to hook to the arm on the puck... no biggie.
Does anyone know the "precise" pressure these open up at? I tested them both and it looks like 14-15psi (EDIT: 12psi according to Steve Wood). But that is obviously without any pressure on the front side of the puck.
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:rock:
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Well not much has transpired since August with this project for reasons of competing priorities and what not...
But, I do have two weeks of vacation left and feel it would be a good idea to put a dent in this car before our little girl shows up in mid-March. So to start I built these wheel cribs which give me 21" clear under the frame, with a taller jack I could much higher. They are built on a 16"x16" frame, if I had to do it over it would be on a 18" or 19" frame... at least in length.
Pictures were taken with our new Canon T4i... primarily bought for baby documenting.
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I like those rims..
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Mike,
Keep up the good work, it is very impressive to say the least. I can't wait to see it actually run, I might have to make a trip Ottawa way to see it.
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Mike,
Keep up the good work, it is very impressive to say the least. I can't wait to see it actually run, I might have to make a trip Ottawa way to see it.
Thanks, Paul. If everything goes the way I plan, it will see a lot of road time.
Can anyone confirm if .0015" to .002" is an acceptable tolerance between the mounting surfaces of the turbo, header and downpipe flanges - before torquing? I've been truing them up for a good final fitment.
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Apparently Kirbans thinks 120 thou is acceptable in the 4 bolt converter flange
based on the part they sent me.
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Apparently Kirbans thinks 120 thou is acceptable in the 4 bolt converter flange
based on the part they sent me.
Yikes. There is a reason I don't shop there.
I've torqued down my "elbow" and have 0.0015" in one spot (below the wastegate hole/puck)... this MIGHT be fillable with temp silicone, no? Thermal expansion of the parts should draw them tight too, right?
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Kirban's is way too expensive - the one order I did place with them came with the parts not packed at all and banging around in the box. NOS4GN has set the bar very high.
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By the time I was done grinding and filing I still had more than 0.002 but it sealed up OK. It was a smooth transition tho, if its straight I would think it would be ok
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By the time I was done grinding and filing I still had more than 0.002 but it sealed up OK. It was a smooth transition tho, if its straight I would think it would be ok
I did a "light check" and there is nothing sneaking through so I should be okay with a little goop in there. So that is one turbo refreshed... one more to go.
The next question is: port the wastegate hole or not?
I know boost creep becomes an issue with a stock housing at higher pressures (20psi+) on the stock 3.8L. Since I am looking to run only 2.9L through each turbo @ 14psi I believe the stock WG hole will be even less of a factor.
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Whats the redline?
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Whats the redline?
It was 6500rpm when the engine was N/A... or at least that was my shift point (even when on the spray).
I hate porting stuff; so much mess. So far I've ported two stock inlet bells, two cast iron oil drain elbows... and I still have a compressor housing to touch up. Sigh.
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So its pumping almost the stock amount of air thru the turbo, probably less with the lower boost. Sounds good to me, interested to see what Steve, Ed and Paul have to say.
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This is normal, right?
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Are you changing the body bushings?
AJ___
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Are you changing the body bushings?
AJ___
That's the problem... I wasn't originally planning on it. But, I started poking around thinking about how I could stiffen up the frame to accept the added torque from the boosted engine and then out came the scraper and screw driver to clean up some scale. One thing lead to another and now I have a fair bit of body work in front of me. This is the PS front body mount and it came out the side of the mount box. :o
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Interesting that one broke, when you get to the other ones that are inside the panels. :(
I have used hockey pucks in the past, cheap and solid.
AJ___
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The funny thing is the rubber mounts themselves are in okay shape. This is just a function of t-tops, salt and 25 years of use. I'll build a new box and go from there.
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I've determined that the body is going to have to come off the frame to fix a variety of issues, including the missing bodymount(s).
Now I have to decide if I want to sink any effort into this body or this frame; buy another base-Monte that is clean, out of the States; or chop the crap out of this car and do something radical. I am considering swapping the body onto a shortened AWD TrailBlazer SS chassis, and turboing a 5.3L.
I could recoupe a fair bit of my money by selling off the current turbo engine, built 200-4R and 8.5" to fund this... either way I am looking at a fair bit of work.
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What's so wrong with the current frame and body?
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Overall, it is looking like it is 25 years old with being exposed to humidity and salt. So to put it plainly: FUBAR... or it is going to be a long road back.
Originally I bought this car because it didn't have rotted rear frame rails, despite the doors and floors being gone. Now the floors are going/gone again (10+ years since it was "restored") and I am not certain that I want to fix it.
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Ok. That makes sense.
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My brother and I are starting to hunt for donors... and I am thinking I am going to sell the twin turbo Gen I small block in this thing and go to to an LSX instead.
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I may have found a hard top donor car... should know by Sunday afternoon. More. To. Follow.
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We picked it up for $800; and in Buick related news it has a 3.8L. Other than power windows this car has no options. Hopefully we can get it home to Ottawa safely tomorrow.
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clean!
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This poor car has been sitting outside for almost 3 years?! Might explain some of the surface rust forming. FML.
Well that all changed this weekend. I rolled the black car out of the garage (with half the steering gear missing) and put it up on jack stands, and washed 5 years of grime off of it - time to donate some parts. I pressure washed under the hood and as much of the undercarriage (amazingly clean under that oily goop) as I could get at, and the bird poop off the body. I'll chip away at this when I want a mental break from the wagon.
I figure I can stick some wheels on it and slam it for initial feel good giggles. Then I have to decide to fix up the SBC in the black car or drop in a 4.8L LS and a turbo.
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Did a little more work on the grey car today... like removing the locking wire hubcaps - with an air hammer. Stupid design.
Also found a vacant mouse nest in the DS front framerail. Eww...
And I started lubing up all the nuts and bolts needed to remove the unnecessary parts; and make way for some performance and service parts.
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There is going to be one constant with the refresh of my MCSS: Massive diet.
This car being a pretty low optioned ride - about the only things I can find are power windows (a must for me), rear defroster (Canadian car), and power trunk release (don't care if it stays or goes).
I am wiling to dump everything possible to get this car down a lot. The only things that I feel obligated to retain are seats for the wife and kids, the power windows, and the heater box.
All the glass can be replaced with lexan, pin on hood and trunk is fine, fiberglass front clip is okay, Swiss cheesing the bumper supports, aluminum bumper brackets, manual steering box, manual brakes, composite dash, aluminum exhaust, and so on.
So if you have a good source, or know if a good reference please post it up. I wonder if sub-3000lbs is possible?
700lbs in savings: http://www.darkside.ca/node/59 (http://www.darkside.ca/node/59)
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Optic Armor:
http://www.opticarmorwindows.com/applications-drop-in-black-outs-details.asp?short_descript ion=G-BODY%20malibu/caprice/el-camino/Regal/Cutlass%C2%A01978%20to%201988&manufacturer=Chevrolet (http://www.opticarmorwindows.com/applications-drop-in-black-outs-details.asp?short_description=G-BODY%20malibu/caprice/el-camino/Regal/Cutlass%C2%A01978%20to%201988&manufacturer=Chevrolet)
http://www.opticarmorwindows.com/applications-oversized-windows-detail.asp?model=Monte%20Carlo%201978%20to%201988&manufacturer=Chevrolet (http://www.opticarmorwindows.com/applications-oversized-windows-detail.asp?model=Monte%20Carlo%201978%20to%201988&manufacturer=Chevrolet)
Not happy with most of the glass on my cars, so this is a good option - for a price.
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Your a bundle of energy, keep the pics coming! :cheers:
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Trying to get as many parts off the black car as possible before the snow comes (or it becomes too cold to function without wearing my issued arctic kit). I just have to pull the intercoolers off, then it is just a matter of the front drive accessories, trans cross member, DS - then the engine should pop out; and of course the rearend.
Most of the parts are going in the trunk of the grey car for storage. However, having another engine and transmission laying around is going to suck.
Right now I am trying to decide if it needs a simple N/A 355 (need new headers) or a boosted 355 (as built). Either way it looks like like it is going to be fuel injected using MicroSquirt. I have a set 80pph injectors, 450lph Walbro, E85 ready -10AN braided line, etc etc etc sitting here.
My brother is trying to convince me to set the car up to run a Ford EDIS 8 ignition system (uses a 36-1 crank trigger) - and lose the factory distributor.
or sell it all and start over with a boosted 4.8L LS.
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This month hot rod had an article with and s10 , twin turbos and an lsx. I didn't read it but they were goofing with the stock bottom end by the bold excerpts.
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5.3 with a LSA blower and a man pedal
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Trying to get as many parts off the black car as possible before the snow comes (or it becomes too cold to function without wearing my issued arctic kit)
I am so thankful to not live in the cold any more. It still gets cold down here but not that "witches tit in a brass bra" cold and it usually doesn't stay that way for long
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It is going to be a whopping 9*C and sunny tomorrow - hopefully it dries up enough for me to crawl under the car.
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Dry? Yes. Windy? Oh hell yes! It caused fluids, drain pans, towels used to soak up fluids, my foam mats, and tools to blow away. FML.
Anyway I managed to disconnect everything needed to pull the engine and trans together without having to remove the hood - as I was on my own for this one. The rearend is also ready to drop out - the sun went down and so did the temperature, and I ran inside like a little bitch to get warmed up.
A couple of other interesting things are the size of the massive 4.2L (I6) TrailBlazer aluminum driveshaft (15152336 / 15833881) next to the stock GN/442 unit; the damn thing weighs nothing by comparison - 51ish" CL to CL. And the period correct (c.1999) dual-hump transmission crossmember - flimsy as shit after being heated and smashed into submission - which will have to be reinforced before installation in the new chassis.
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Cold and windy???? Braver and more determined man than me
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Meh. I just do what is necessary... which usually involves me suffering in some way.
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The transfer of parts continues. Pulled the 8.5" today, cleaned and degreased it and the engine/trans, then painted the diff, and then set them all aside for a moment of boredom. I also wrestled the KYB shocks and the MCSS steering box back out of the Lemans donor car (originally stolen out of the MCSS a few years ago).
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I guess I missed what the goal here is. Are you going away from the wagon and putting the mcss back together?
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I guess I missed what the goal here is. Are you going away from the wagon and putting the mcss back together?
Um... goals? People have goals with project cars?
I am pretty sure I am using this as an excuse to not fix my TBSS as quickly as I could - which I suppose I could do the same with the wagon. Truth is I really miss driving the Monte Carlo (so many memories wrapped up in that car), and I have no real affinity to the wagon (yet). You might remember a few years ago I did this same thing with the brown Lemans (I literally robbed the sleeping MCSS of parts) just to have something to tool around in that was V8 G-body.
Also, the TBSS and wagon are too nice/clean - I want something I can care less about, and tinker with over time without feeling the need to build a complete car out of the gate - which means that I will probably enjoy it more.
So, yeah - zero goals other than distracting myself from the massive amount of other work I have going on using nostalgia.
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I see.
I just saw you taking things apart, and didn't really see a direction.Not that a direction is needed. Just better to have a goal in mind if real achievement is to happen.
MCSS to the rescue!
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Speaking of goals... I may have a cheap and complete 4.8L pullout in my hands this weekend. If this is the case then I will be replicating this build: http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1505-650-hp-4-8l-ls-with-a-single-turbo-setup-mini-mouse-part-3/ (http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1505-650-hp-4-8l-ls-with-a-single-turbo-setup-mini-mouse-part-3/)
The only thing I will not be doing is a really expensive set of cylinder heads, because as we all know it is cheaper to crank up the boost. If I can get around 500 torques and 500 horsepowers to the wheels that will be plenty for my needs - especially since I plan to employ a lot of used and eBay parts.
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Going on the nice to have list:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/681252/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/681252/10002/-1)
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/681283/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/681283/10002/-1)
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/681288/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/681288/10002/-1)
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Those wheels look pretty sweet!
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Especially for the money. I paid more than that to have two wheels widened...
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Those are nice! So many options out there for wheels these days it's hard to choose
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Soooo... this finally happened. Brought home a sad little 4.8L "LR4" out of a '99 Silverado with 200K+ kms.
The "Semi-Sloppy" plan:
- Stock Bottom End 4.8L (gap the rings (maybe) and dingle-ball the cylinders (maybe), and pin the crank);
- port and shim the stock oil pump;
- reuse the tired-ass LS2 timing chain from my TBSS with a TFS damper and the equally used LS2 lifters; and
- some sort of oil pan that fits a G-body (eBay?);
- 241 heads from our LS1 (flow more thanks to bigger valves and drops the compression to about 9:1, might even do a little porting) and some cheap MLS head gaskets (not paying LS9 prices) like taking some stock LS1 units, rob the guts, and make a DIY 7-layer setup;
- find some gently used dual valve springs and 7.4 pushrods;
- stab in the janky (and probably whiny) Comp 226/230 .605"/.608" 113+3 (LXL lobes) cam I cannot seem to sell;
- Force a set of ARP head studs into the block because they wouldn't go into our LS1 (Thanks for that, ARP!);
- 80pph Deka injectors;
- TBSS intake (for now) and some sort of rail and regulator solution (eBay?), and a 90mm Chinese DBC throttlebody (or the stock 78mm TB and an adapter);
- Walbro 450 (or two) and hotwire (aka. an overpriced relay (or two)) pushing fuel into a -10 AN line (I'll figure out something for a 3/8" return later);
- a Straub trunnion upgrade (or push my luck and run the rocker arms stock);
- truck exhaust manifold turbo setup (maybe send the downpipe out of the fender or hood?); and
- a fast spooling turbo (nope, no intercooler, methanol injection or E85 is an ideal solution).
Hopefully this thing will spin to 7000+rpm, make 500hp at the wheels, and put a smile on my face.
I am either going to back this with a 200-4R (3000 stall), and 4.56s (and a 28+ inch tire); or dump the 200-4R for a close ratio Magnum T56/TR6060 swap.
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Sounds like you have a plan for lots of tire roasting!
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On with the build - I seriously cannot sit still for five minutes without messing around with stuff. Ran to the shelf and started grabbing leftovers from other projects - nothing like hand-me-downs. You can see the stock springs, MOOG 5606s, ummm... Eibachs(?), and a set of no-name lowering springs that I chopped down years ago. Pretty easy to guess which ones I chose for this application. Dropped the front end down from 28+ inches to 25ish inches. The rear is at 30" and makes for an impressive stink-bug stance (where is my mullet?), I might keep it just to troll people. ;)
Other than that I jammed in some KYB Gas-A-Justs in there too.
I am still trying to decide if I am going to put the 34mm hollow sway bar on the front, or leave it off because I don't plan on using one long term with this project (ie. light weight). The only reason I am even considering doing the labour for the sway bar is because I might autocross this thing with the shitty 3.8L just for giggles.
Next up the rear suspension (moar low, and more KYBs).
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Good your enjoying yourself & seeing all those parts get's the mind going 100 mph. I used to be the same way & would spend days screwing around in my little shop where I had the engine out for winter. Front covers, intakes, anything I could find to use a dremmel on! Have fun & keep us posted! :cheers:
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Good your enjoying yourself & seeing all those parts get's the mind going 100 mph. I used to be the same way & would spend days screwing around in my little shop where I had the engine out for winter. Front covers, intakes, anything I could find to use a dremmel on! Have fun & keep us posted! :cheers:
No problem, glad to share!
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Yanked the front swaybar, greased the front end, pulled the cargo coils (a giant PITA to get out of the pockets) and slapped in some chopped springs (PITA to keep in the pockets). Also got the Made in the USA Gabriel Red Ryder shocks out (which were completely blown out front and rear) and replaced them with the Made in Japan KYBs (JDM baby!). The car is now sitting 25.5" front and 27" rear.
Also chopped off the rotting exhaust (actually did this first to make getting the suspension out easier) and replaced it with a 3" system cobbled together from scraps I had laying around - including a spare Pypes Violator muffler. Why? Just because I could. Yanked the front swaybar, greased the front end, pulled the cargo coils (a giant PITA to get out of the pockets) and slapped in some chopped springs (PITA to keep in the pockets). Also got the Made in the USA Gabriel Red Ryder shocks out (which were completely blown out front and rear) and replaced them with the Made in Japan KYBs (JDM baby!).
Also chopped off the rotting exhaust (actually did this first to make getting the suspension out easier) and replaced it with a 3" system cobbled together from scraps I had laying around - including a spare Pypes Violator muffler. Why? Just because I could.Yanked the front swaybar, greased the front end, pulled the cargo coils (a giant PITA to get out of the pockets) and slapped in some chopped springs (PITA to keep in the pockets). Also got the Made in the USA Gabriel Red Ryder shocks out (which were completely blown out front and rear) and replaced them with the Made in Japan KYBs (JDM baby!).
Also chopped off the rotting exhaust (actually did this first to make getting the suspension out easier) and replaced it with a 3" system cobbled together from scraps I had laying around - including a spare Pypes Violator muffler. Why? Just because I could.
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I was bored last night (recovering from yard work and cleaning up the garage) so I decided to decode the RPOs on the Monte. It is a bit of a weirdly optioned car.
Buick 3.8L w/2bbl, TH200, and 2.41 gears says: I am the cheapest MFer on the road. This is the most basic drivetrain available.
Yet, it has power windows, rear defrost, 4 speaker stereo, the wide chrome exterior trim, locking wire wheel covers, landau roof, extra sound deadening, the "Z06" premium interior package (w/ 60/40 bench), and the F41 suspension package (I had a feeling the front swaybar was large when I took it off - I measured it at 1.25" diameter). This screams I want to be moderately comfortable, look good, and like a firm ride - while being a cheap ass slow poke.
But, it doesn't have AC or cruise control. But, does have a block heater (because Canada!).
Consequently it is hard to tell where the car was spec'd to be driven (not on city streets or in traffic due to a lack of AC) and not on the highway for long distances (no cruise). This thing must have lived its whole life between 40 and 80km/h on paved rural roads (roll the windows down at speed and coast a few kms at a time).
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Tried to figure out which one is lower.
And gave the Monte a tune up, and added some ponies with a zip disc. Weird working with a timing light again.
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The asshattery continues!
Stripped the CL clip off and stuck the SS clip on. Did some surgery on the bumper shocks, and shaved some weight in other areas too (clutch fan, shroud, copper/brass rad, steel hood, fender liners, the SS airbox). Natasha was really good about helping me move the large awkward parts around (she has cleared me to buy composite parts forevermore).
I'll put the rear bumper and lights on tomorrow.
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#fun
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Mullet motivation montage time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29vogEi1dKI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29vogEi1dKI)
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https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/wto/d/centerline-wheels-and-tires/6163437828.html
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Thanks for the link... but I am really angling for 15x12s out back.
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I've been watching cl in my neighborhood for some skinnies like those. Still extremely light compared to newer stuff. I dig the look.
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Mullet motivation montage time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29vogEi1dKI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29vogEi1dKI)
Is that a GN at 2:23 pulling up to the lights?