Author Topic: Intercoolers  (Read 18441 times)

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Offline earlbrown

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #15 on: February 08 2019, 04:56:54 PM »
I would imagine they drop more than that in real life.


Phase change cooling ain't no joke.   Sometimes it's hard to really wrap your head around how much heat energy can be moved around with that stuff.
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Offline gusszgs

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #16 on: February 08 2019, 05:11:28 PM »
The Razors alky Kit IMO has been the best bang for buck of all the bolts on I’ve added. Been a fantastic kit with one pump in 8yrs.
Jason, do you run straight meth? I’ve ALWAYS done so....advice given to me by Julio himself way back.
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Offline daveismissing

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #17 on: February 08 2019, 05:12:43 PM »
I'm thinking those weird-salt bag phase change bags they use for solar heating are the wrong transition temps, we would need to find some other concoction.
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Offline daveismissing

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Offline TexasT

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #19 on: February 08 2019, 06:31:30 PM »
Does it help to spray the alchy further away to give it time to cool or is the up pipe plenty of distance in the  plenum for the charge to cool off when spraying the alchy? I guess a plate for under the plenum(like n2o) is too close to the valve and doesn't give the charge enough time to get cooled?
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #20 on: February 08 2019, 07:15:08 PM »
Seems all we are trying to do is to get the most even mix possible of alky droplets/vapor and air going into all the cylinders where the real vaporization takes place for max charge cooling.

E85 simplifies this process.  To me, one of the largest benefits of alky injection or E85 in the tank is that the A/F ratio for max power is not nearly as critical as it is with straight gasoline.

Whereas injecting straight water provides the most theoretical charge cooling, using straight methanol in our spray systems provides that broader peak A/F which makes it easier to avoid detonation as the "edge" is not that steep.

Side note:  I recall in the old days on alky cars, the danger with methanol was not from detonation, but, from preignition.
« Last Edit: February 08 2019, 07:36:47 PM by Steve Wood »
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Offline TexasT

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #21 on: February 08 2019, 07:43:36 PM »
Would a water/Meth mix give a greater cool to the charge? Or does it just make the "edge" of the detonation smaller?  After listening to some podcast I can see where guys have problems with distribution. When a guy only sees the o2 on all the cylinders compared to individual cylinders, he may never see just how lean one or more gets and when using the meth as part of the fuel load that lean hurts even if the detonation doesn't occur.
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #22 on: February 08 2019, 08:22:42 PM »
I was thinking of edge as the falling off point where we are operating safely, and then suddenly, being in detonation and throwing parts thru the block :)

Maybe, I should have said we go from the "Green" safe zone immediately into the "Red" danger zone.

When we add alky to the equation, we seem to insert a greenish yellow zone which still allows us to make safe power and this zone is fairly wide before we get into the red?  My mind and mouth/fingers seem to have a transition zone in between them, these days.  :D

I used to have a page on my site with a bunch of cooling calculations which has disappeared with time.  Of the three primary alcohols, methanol seems to provide the most cooling by a small margin.  In the Sixties when Holley/Spearco sold some water injection kits that sprayed into the carburetor, they were on non boosted applications and they used straight water.  They allowed us to run more timing and we made a little more power. Water always creates more cooling, but, it also "waters down" the fuel content of the mixture.

When GM had the turbo'd Old's and the turbo'd Corvair, they ran a mix.  I am not sure the alky did much other than keep it from freezing easily and they kept it low to eliminate fire potential.  They considered the same for the 84/85 GN's but went to the IC on the 86/87's.  I think they were covering their rears on blown engines on dry tanks??

I think when you run 100% alky, you add a fuel content benefit with regard to octane addition and this fuel content also broadens this transition zone between the "green and red" zones due to the lower sensitivity to A/F as we add more and more methanol to the mix.  This is my conjecture, anyway.

I have seen some cars that were spraying alky make runs with the A/F down around 10.3-1 and then a run at 10.8 with virtually  no change in miles per hour.

Running straight methanol and no gas might give you the same results over two full numbers of A/F.  When we run a mix of the two, or E85, perhaps, it's really difficult to discuss what's the best A/F.  Lambda is probably the better term to use but, you have to learn something else, there.  I am too old to learn new tricks.

Anyway, I think spraying a lot of methanol takes us away from pure charge cooling to a blended it fuel which provides lower heat, but, can greatly increase the boost that can safely be applied without being in danger of suddenly falling off the the cliff into the detonation abyss.

« Last Edit: February 08 2019, 09:08:24 PM by Steve Wood »
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Offline good2win22

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #23 on: February 08 2019, 09:47:10 PM »
The Razors alky Kit IMO has been the best bang for buck of all the bolts on I’ve added. Been a fantastic kit with one pump in 8yrs.
Jason, do you run straight meth? I’ve ALWAYS done so....advice given to me by Julio himself way back.
Straight M1 being sprayed in my limited.


Bison makes a plate with 6 “squirters” placed at the end of intake runner. Damn near sits right on the intake valve. Your alky supply line installs to the plate and is controlled with the alky control kit. Have one fella that I know that is in love with it but I haven’t seen any data with it.


Steve, todays fuel management systems take the mathematical magic of running e85, when using a flex fuel sensor, or any other supplemental power adder out of your hands. The addition of individual egt sensors or better yet, individual O2 sensors allows each cylinder to be tailored specifically for any discrepancies in distribution. I know of a car running e85 with meth injection but is still using gas afr tables due to the flex fuel sensor being installed. Simple as making a few adjustments based on the maximum and minimum methanol content. The computer does the rest.

Jason

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Offline Scoobum

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #24 on: February 08 2019, 10:56:15 PM »
Way too much thinking going on. Take the car to the track and turn the alky off. Throw in Erics 112 race chip. Watch Scoobs vid on how to drain the tank faster than you can guzzle a beer. Toss a can of 112 VP in it. Drop the low gear 02's to around 780 and bump the low gear timing up. Turn the boost to 23 or higher...bring the revs up to 3000 grand on the footbrake...an d hang on for dear life. It ain't rocket science.
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Offline Scoobum

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #25 on: February 08 2019, 11:31:23 PM »
On a side note...if all you ever do is run 20 lbs of boost...you ain't gonna see any increase with a high dollar IC.
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Offline gusszgs

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #26 on: February 09 2019, 07:52:23 AM »
Way too much thinking going on. Take the car to the track and turn the alky off. Throw in Erics 112 race chip. Watch Scoobs vid on how to drain the tank faster than you can guzzle a beer. Toss a can of 112 VP in it. Drop the low gear 02's to around 780 and bump the low gear timing up. Turn the boost to 23 or higher...bring the revs up to 3000 grand on the footbrake...an d hang on for dear life. It ain't rocket science.

Can do same and turn up to 28-29 with alky and save $140 in race fuel
Jim
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #27 on: February 09 2019, 08:49:58 AM »
After listening to some podcast I can see where guys have problems with distribution.
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Offline Scoobum

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #28 on: February 09 2019, 09:13:15 AM »
Way too much thinking going on. Take the car to the track and turn the alky off. Throw in Erics 112 race chip. Watch Scoobs vid on how to drain the tank faster than you can guzzle a beer. Toss a can of 112 VP in it. Drop the low gear 02's to around 780 and bump the low gear timing up. Turn the boost to 23 or higher...bring the revs up to 3000 grand on the footbrake...an d hang on for dear life. It ain't rocket science.

Can do same and turn up to 28-29 with alky and save $140 in race fuel

E85 or race gas...you won't go back. That's why everyone's swapped to E85.
Hard work pays off, dreams come true. Bad times don't last, but BAD GUYS do!

RIP Scott Hall AKA Razor Ramon

Offline wmsonta

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Re: Intercoolers
« Reply #29 on: February 09 2019, 09:16:14 AM »

 Watch Scoobs vid on how to drain the tank faster than you can guzzle a beer.
I looked and could not find it. It is something I do quite a lot. I currently use the in tank pump and apparently that is hard on them.

 

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