IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on October 02 2017, 11:04:23 AM
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Car ran ok 12.1 was best. Too many cars showed up so only 4 runs. I think my tire height is holding me back but wanted to ask here. All 4 runs were 107.69 to 107.80 MPH and the times were 12.3, 12.1, 12.3 12.2. short times were best of 1.6 worst of 1.8.
So question is what is the ideal tire height for the 1/4 mile? I'm crossing the line at 3rd at 54XX RPM
My third run I tried leaving it in OD and as you see, same MPH and time but crossed the line at 47XX RPM. Felt like is shifted with about 100 FT left to the line.
Thanks for any help!!
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Is this the cam you are using?
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/turbo-buick-v6-performance-parts/buick-turbo-v6-engine-parts/turbo-buick-v6-camshafts/206-206-turbo-cam.html (http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/turbo-buick-v6-performance-parts/buick-turbo-v6-engine-parts/turbo-buick-v6-camshafts/206-206-turbo-cam.html)
If so, you are theoretically already trapping 600+rpm past peak.
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What tire diameter are you using now? 28 inch tire will do wonders with a 3.42 gear rear end. Leave it in 3rd. Locking the converter may help but the tranny better be up to the task.
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I think that is the cam I have, will check
Have a 26 inch tire now. Only height available in a 17 inch DR
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What is it shifting at and is the converter locked up?
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You have 14-15% converter slippage which is the major problem evident from the data you provided. You should be in the elevens easily with a 1.6 short time and a locked converter. I would lock it about 80 mph. You did not mention your boost, but boost is the best thing you can do beyond locking the converter.
We have told you 28" tires in the past but you have discarded the idea because you need wheels.
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its shifting at 5400ish
Checked into locking the converter and the place where I got it said it would kill it
Boost is at 23-24, it moves about slightly on the logger
at this point, seems like getting some steel 15inch rims and 28 inch slicks would be the cheapest option? But will this converter issue still fight me?
Converters confuse me. I think I understand I want a 2800-3000ish stall speed. That's what I have now, don't really love it for street driving but can live with it. But the whole lock/unlock thing is hard for me to grasp. And for a 90% driver/10% strip car what is the best compromise if there is such a thing?
Sorry but the more I read up on it the more I struggle.
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There is probably a good .3-.4 and 4 mph with a locked up converter. My low milage stock Turbo Buick went just as fast as you and same mph on a hot day with less boost and the converter locked. You should look into buying a non-lock up converter if you don't plan on using the lockup.
My other car with the 9/11 and 4.1 when I first took it to the track on straight pump gas I was running pig rich on the first pass because I was running pump. And it went 12.3, without any changes and the converter locked I went 11.9. I then unlocked it and started to turn the fuel pressure down till it ran in the 11.7-11.8 range without the converter locked.
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I got Shimy to contact CK about the locking the convertor awhile back...and it was a no go. Basically what he's doing is 'blowing through' the convertor.
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Shimy...think of a standard transmission car with a slipping wore out clutch. It's not transferring all the power to the rear tires. Same thing happening with your convertor. It's slipping like a whore.
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Whose converter are you using? Lots can be accomplished with a good converter. The stall and the flash stall are generally two different numbers. A good non locking converter can be had and is tight enough to couple well ay the top end of the track giving single digit slip yet still being loose for the launch and having the flash Stall get you a real thump to get it out of the hole and keep that nice 60' you are laying down. These aren't cheap. Expect to be upwards of a grand. I want to try on of the d husek 3021 but I'm good with my custom I got.
As far as wheels go, any old rally, steel, or cool shiney rim should work as long as it has the bolt spacing and correct back space. I'd go with a 15x8 Chevy rally wheel. Speedway, summit, jegs all have em. And shipped right to your door.
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I run a LU (Husek 3021) and have run 11.40's 1.58 60' around 117mph in the heat and humidity. Complete stock block with 980's. Key is a decent converter and a 28" tall tire.......... at least in my case anyway. PL shows I'm near 5400 thru the traps
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If the backspacing is not right, it will not fit. Just any old wheel is not what you want. Ideally, an 8" wheel with a 4" backspacing will come the closest to fitting in all circumstances
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Just to add to what Steve said. First off the 28x9 MT slick and the 275/60/15 MT DR have the same dimensions. You can use the stock GN rim with either...as I've done this in the past. Currently I have rims with a 4.5 inch backspace...an d I use a 7/32nd spacer to get the tire off the frame rail. Grumpy ran a 4.5 backspace rim years ago with a spacer with a 275/60/15.
The bottom line is a rim with a 4 inch backspace works best on these cars.
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If you decide to go the wheel and tire route, give this a thought. The taller tire will take what mechanical advantage that the tranny has right now and reduce it. If your slip is in the teens already like Steve mentioned, it will be worse with the taller tire. I would suggest you look at the tranny. If you're going to keep the lock up, I lock mine at 90 mph and was going to lock it it a little later than that but never got another run. Now I'm going with a non lock set up. Fast guys I've talked with say that once you hit the 11.5 mark, the lock up won't get you any faster and will actually make you slower. I have no evidence to back that last statement up
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Jason, I had him contact CK quite some time ago...he can't lock that convertor.
I'd yank the trans and have it converted to a NL...any trans shop can do it cheap. Got my NL kit from Chris at CK...it's inexpensive. I'd grab a good used AC 16930 convertor. They can be had cheap...with everyone going to PTC. I'd grab a pair of used 28x9 slicks and mount 'em on stock rims. I'd grab a 112 race chip from Eric...turn off the alky...and have at it. You'll get yer' 11 and then some.
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28" tires will give him another 8-9 mph on top end...
He is also running on the low end of the boost range....car actually did pretty well considering the combo problems
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Cracking the 10's for no money with a stock block.
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/project-car-build-for-the-board-rusty-silver-bullet-seeking-10s-asap.400319/ (https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/project-car-build-for-the-board-rusty-silver-bullet-seeking-10s-asap.400319/)
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Steve...here's the 5931 with a pair of good heads...PTC 9.5...tuned with NB and a 5.7 chip. Gives an idea what it's capable of.
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/billet-5931e-5957-1-4-times.453429/ (https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/billet-5931e-5957-1-4-times.453429/)
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Yeah, it is slip sliding away.
Did you see that link I posted above of Wally Judy pulling s 9.35 on iron heads and a maxeffort? 2009
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Walt Judy
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Yeah, it is slip sliding away.
Did you see that link I posted above of Wally Judy pulling s 9.35 on iron heads and a maxeffort? 2009
Impressive!
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expecially on iron heads. Even earlier than that, Roy Garcia was running mid nines but I am sure that was a Stage engine. Nothing new to be in the nines on a chip
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So because im good at hearing what I want :icon_lol: im hearing that im a set of 28 inch tires and s converter away from a low 11's car :rock:
Seriously though. I gotta do the tire thing. Scoob is sold on the ac converter, and his proof is in the pudding as they say, but how is that converter for street use and also how do I get a good one as they sre not made anymore and I wouldnt know a good from a bad one if it bit me. I thought this CK one I got was going to be the ticket :rolleyes; so is there a new one thats comprable to the ac one??
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http://www.cpttransmission.com/ (http://www.cpttransmission.com/)
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Go back to reply 16. Steve says you can pick up 8 mph going to a 28 inch tire. Grab an old pair of 28x9 slicks and throw them on a rim...preferab ly 8 inch wide and a 4 inch backspace...an d have at it. You'll have your 11 second time slip. Set the tire pressure to 12.2 to 12.4. Post your PL log from your 12.1 run if you can. Lets get a look at the fueling.
The link I put up with your turbo...the gent has a set of aluminum heads. Don't expect his results. The stock heads act like a cork. This boils down to how fast do you wanna go...your tuning ability...and how thick your wallet is.
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expecially on iron heads. Even earlier than that, Roy Garcia was running mid nines but I am sure that was a Stage engine. Nothing new to be in the nines on a chip
Dan brought his S2 car out to my home track 2 years ago. 4 inch MAF...Translat or...Erics 5.7 112 race chip...12 pounds of boost. I put a fat tune on it so it wouldn't hurt itself. Ran a 6.90 on a 1.5x launch. Tell me again why I need XFI. Turbo is an old school Limit Engineering 76 JB. Heads are GN1 aluminum. Old school Precision FMIC. 3500 no name convertor.
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Thank's Brad, every body in Toronto think's it's a 12 second car, Think again idiots, and it's for sale.
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I found a drag radial in a 17 inch size and 28 inch height. M&H RaceMaster drag radials, some pretty good reviews. Also have another call into CK to ask about locking the converter again. Probably know the answer but want to ask him. I only make 10-20 passes a year, what is going to happen if I put a switch in and lock it up at 80 like Steve suggested. I'll report back his answer
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If its a 9.5" single disk, don't waste your time locking it, you'll just fry it. I went with a 9.5" Husek LU cause I drive my car a lot on the street and really enjoy that aspect of it. I've never locked it at the the track.....no point. For what? A couple mph?
If you want to get serious et wise then go NL............ but like the others have said, be prepared to pay some serious coin. I own A GS with a 258mm max perf Coan. That converter was a grand in 2007! But the fukr works, and you'd think you were driving with a stock converter on the street
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Jim is absolutely correct that you'll have to spend large for a high quality NL convertor. The 9.5 PTC is likely the best for driveability and coupling on the big end in a NL configuration. Do some research on the other board...the slip rate is fairly low.
I mention the AC convertors cuz they can be had cheap...as everyone has jumped to the 9.5 PTC NL. The AC works well in a low HP car like mine...and a high HP car like Rich(Bird) here in Toronto. Timeslips on my own car from 2 weeks ago have it running 100 mph at the 1/8th traps with this 16930. Bird went 9.69 at 138 with the 19930. MPH is the indicator of how well the convertor is coupling on the big end. If you're on a budget the AC is tough to beat if you can find a good used one. The 16930 is incredibly tight and drives like a stocker on the street. You really have to tune low gear to get it loosened up to spool this 6262.
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I remember way long ago when Yaklin and the other GM guys were running the 16930 with great success and a lot of the experts were explaining why a NL was no good...after many years of when that was what all converters were. People get enamored with "technology" at times without really understanding what it does.
Now, we are seeing more and more of the old back on the road again. Sometimes with the same name and sometimes with the new and improved label stuck on it at a higher price.
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The mp/h is low. Thus h/p is on the low end due to a tuning issue. I went 11.8's all day @ 115 on a Ta- 49, stretch intercooler , stock converter all on 26" tall tire.
Keep your money, tune for power and watch the times fall.
My bet is its lean on the top
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The mp/h is low. Thus h/p is on the low end due to a tuning issue. I went 11.8's all day @ 115 on a Ta- 49, stretch intercooler , stock converter all on 26" tall tire.
Keep your money, tune for power and watch the times fall.
My bet is its lean on the top
Mike...what was the convertor you ran...and it's slip percentage?
He could very well be making decent HP...but with 14 percent slip he's losing alot.
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he was crossing the line at 5400+
That blows the entire not making hp argument...got ta read the posts
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Then that converter ain't worth a pinch of coon shit.
I had a stock one with whatever slippage?
You don't need anything other than stock at this power level.
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I'd bet the rear gear isn't 3.42.
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Then that converter ain't worth a pinch of coon shit.
I had a stock one with whatever slippage?
You don't need anything other than stock at this power level.
Mike, he'd need about a 2600-2800 to spin that turbo. What's a D5 come up to at 0 boost?
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Some got the D5 to spool a 49.
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Some got the D5 to spool a 49.
.63 Garret I assume? Not sure how close the 44/49 is to the 5931.
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I think TTA850, or whatever that Mike's screenname was was pushing his TTA to 11.5's with a PT51 and a stock converter- not many did with the chips of those days
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I spooled the 49 with a D5. 1.6's in the 60
The PTC converter just works and works well. They, the coverter people, just want too much money for it. $1100 from Dusty
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1100...plus 30 percent exchange rate...shippin g...blah blah blah.
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1100...plus 30 percent exchange rate...shippin g...blah blah blah.
There will not be one behind my 109. I challenged Jake to make me one just like it
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Not concerned about HP, I'm making adequate power to get in 11"s. Not an expert tuner by any stretch but I think I get it enough to have a pretty descent tune. Didn't save any logs from weekend but had 0 knock, crossing the line had O2's in the low 780"s. Could probably go leaner but I'm conservative. First gear tune had me with 1.6 60 ft so I'm happy with that. Could probably leave harder there also but again, conservative. Rear is 3.42
This winter will get tires. already looking for a converter. If anyone see's a AC16930 please let me know. If I gotta I'll spring for the PTC 9.5 but a grand is a lot of green!! Jack Cotton has helped me out a few times, he sells converters, anything that works good for what I want there. They are Pro Torque 9.5 NL's.
Thanks guys!!!
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for a new one, check the cpt link that Reality gave you. that is what Art Carr goes by these days
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780's is fine...keep it safe.
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yeah, the tune is fine
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Tune is fine
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Where does the 16930 fit in?
..snip........
19930 - TH-200 4R Competition Converter 9" Non Lock Up
200 4R Competition converter non lock up
19935 - TH-200 4R Competition Torque Converter, Lock Up 9/11
TH-200 4R Competition Torque Converter, Lock Up 9/11
16030 - TH-200 4R Heavy Duty Super Torque Converter 10"
TH-200 4R Heavy Duty Super Torque Converter 10" non-lockup
2000: the real Art Carr is back!! And I will have all of my original employees that were
the back bone of the company that was in Fountain Valley. We will be building the 16930 torque converter
that Kenny Duttweiler helped use design.
boards:
The 16930 from Texas will be a heavier Converter due to the big Back Plate they use.
The 19930 from The REAL Art has an internal Anti-Ballooning Plate and the Converter is a little lighter.
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I'll need Steves help on this. Art ran different stalls on the same numbered convertors from what I can tell. It could be an N stall...O stall etc.
The 16930 I have is extremely tight. I think it's a N stall. I'd have to slide under and look. I believe the 16930's were rated from 2800-3000.
Bird(Rich) to my knowledge ran a 19930 with his 70 GTQ. I've seen the 19930's rated from 3400 to 3800...once again depending on the letter.
Joe also ran a 19930 with a 70 GTQ. I'm not sure what letter his was tho.
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I talked to him and the 19930 is comparable
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http://www.converter.cc/FAQ_s/45.htm (http://www.converter.cc/FAQ_s/45.htm)
also my pick for a converter.
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My buddy Mike runs a Yank in his 2002 LS nitrous 9 second Camaro.
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I have a Yank 2600 Truck Thruster in the TBSS, does 1.6' foot times. Not bad for a budget 300mm converter which retains full towing capacity.
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Question, when I switch to the 28 inch tires if I still have this converter do you guys think it will create more slip at the end of run or less??
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I'd wanna be shifting...and hitting the traps...at my peak HP.
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I'll go back and check...but I think Murph went through the traps with that stock block/stock turbo engine at 5 grand. I forget what RPM drop he was getting.
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A full page of solid data for a stock engine/stock turbo. Have a look/read of RPM drop and shift points. A good convertor is essential. He said he was getting 5.5 to 6.7 percent slip depending on the calculator he was using. He's using a 28 inch tire and 3.32 rear gear. He's working within a 700 RPM window.
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/taking-a-stock-engine-with-stock-turbo-to-the-limit.448354/page-6 (https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/taking-a-stock-engine-with-stock-turbo-to-the-limit.448354/page-6)
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shades of Tim Stockwell
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Tim Stockwells' journey.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/Stockwell.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/Stockwell.html)
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Some where, I have a write up that he did on the little things he did. Things like Vaseline on the front wheel bearings, etc
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Tim Stockwells' journey.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/Stockwell.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/Stockwell.html)
I think the 4'C temperatures helps! That made my heavy T run a 1.61 60ft and it's a high 1.7 in the heat. Would love to see what kind of 60ft my low milage car could get in those cold temps. It pulled a 1.67 on a 30'C day, I would think easy 1.5x's.