IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
General => Computer/Tech Support => Topic started by: good2win22 on September 30 2016, 10:03:57 PM
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So I'm a bit confused but that's not hard to do. Apparently there are 4 different ways to to get a target air fuel ratio at idle on parameter 2.
Set to 9.7 to turn on closed loop and use a target a/f from the PL AFR table.
Set to 9.8 to turn off closed loop, but still use a target a/f from the PL AFR table.
Set to 9.9 to turn off closed loop, and use a target a/f preset in the chip.
Set to 10.0 and higher and this will be your target a/f.
Which is preferred/best method? I noticed on the PL screen that when the chip was installed it was set at 98 but there was no AFR correction data when the engine was running. I then changed it to 13.5 and I got an AFR correction data.
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I don't think there is a preferred or best...but, I would start off with the last option and set it about 13.5 and see if it idled smoothly in gear at that point
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It's set at 13.5 now. Idle is smooth. Doesn't die or stumble in gear. I did adjust the injector offset to get the a/f correction closer to 0. Went for a little drive and there is a lean spike when accelerating. Guess I'll work that parameter and the cruise parameter next.
If what I understand is true, then the 97 means I would adjust the a/f correction via the VE table with the help of the sensor information feeding their data back to the ECM and the 98 would not show an a/f correction because it doesn't care what the sensor info is.
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I think I have a little better understanding now. Adjust the parameters in the blm grid and the chip adjusts the tables. And if you're feeling froggy, you can go into the tables and adjust as you see fit.
I can easily see how you could completely destroy an engine without any idea of knowing what you're doing. Lots of options does get overwhelming at times.
Now I need to understand how each parameter interacts with the other. Also it would be nice to have a second person to enter info while driving. I do like the ability to see results instantaneousl y.
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I did not upgrade from 1 to 2 when Eric asked me if I wanted to. I don't seem to want to focus on one thing anymore, but, that is my understanding as to how it works.
It should be pretty close on the defaults and I would not make radical changes. At the 10.0 sec range, I don't really think it will be any faster than a well tuned regular chip no matter what the xfi shills claim...On the other hand, it's fun and the not too expensive :)
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Drove the car to the UTI block party up north of Dallas yesterday. Went up and back and a trip over to Kellers drive in. A little over 300 miles total. A few observations:
Letting the presets in the chip handle the cruise fuel makes for a really steady wideband and narrow band reading. However, a/f correction still wants to pull fuel and the black on the end of the exhaust confirm the richness. Not exactly certian how to address this for cruise unless I go into the tables. Don't think I'm ready for that just yet.
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Back the fuel pressure down a bit maybe? Just have to remember to crank it back up when you need it.
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Jason, I'm no help with this...but I'm curious what the AF reading is at cruise.
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Think of it like an excel spread sheet
RPM on one axis and vacuum/pressure on the other. The cells are fueling.
The AFR and NB is going to be consistent as you are sitting in one or 2 cells for cruise. As the rpm and pressure is are staying steady.
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Keep posting Jason I'm really leaning this way.
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Rich,
The fuel pressure needs to remain set at 43. If not then the tables won't work as their supposed to and the correction will be more or less at any given condition. I believe that this is why setting up the warmed up idle is so important. Once the corrections are made at idle, the rest of the tables will reflect those settings except at WOT. There you have to be on top of the game or damage will occur
Brad,
With the cruise fuel parameter set at 97, this lets the chip decide the AFR. This is something I don't have a good grasp on. I don't understand exactly what variable, IAT, tps, map, speed or combination of them, decide what AFR to pick. Cruising last nightbetweeen 65-75, the target AFR would go from 13.7 to 14.5 depending on where the pedal was at, i.e. Going down a hill, go up a hill and on level ground. I can input a target AFR of say 14.5 for cruise fuel but then the chip tries to make that the target AFR at all cruise conditions which may not be ideal.
As far as I can tell, there is no learning mode in the chip. You are the educator. Sticking with the defaults may be the best bet after getting the idle correct.
I can say this, drivability is much much better with this chip than it was on the 5.7 with my engine combo.
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I'm at the bottom of my game...so this ain't the chip for me. :)
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Isn't load one of the parameters that is used to calculate fueling
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Load is calculated by MAP and RPM in SD and maf and rpm in stock set ups?
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Yep
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Brad, you could get this. Larry, I'll defer to Steve on those questions.
Here's a log of a quick test drive this evening. 3rd gear pull with alky sprayingand I have the boost controller backed all the way out and the actuator arm just sliding over the puck arm.. This is the lowest boost I can go with unless a get a weaker actuator.
As you guys can see, there was a slight bit of KR when I pulled the tranny down into D and then it went away. Converter locked at 91, I had it set at 90, and that thing felt like a rocket. AFR correction was adding some fuel but not much and I can adjust that since I'm still on the default fuel parameters.
This is kind of fun again!
Almost forgot to tell you guys. To view the log in the SD mode, select 768 grams on the config page and open up the tune page
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Couple questions. I unloaded the file into the plc window and there it was already set to the 768gr/sec. I ran it back n forth a couple times. I'm guessing the maf reading is a computer calculated gr/sec as there is no maf. I did notice it never got to half of 768. Only about 360 or so. I guess that gets to 720 calculated.
Next i got the tune thing to come up. It has several tables including target afr, ve and spark. I'm guessing the top row is rpm and the left column is for the calculated half of the gr/sec. Also there is a football shaped thing that moves around I think showing where the computer is using the table at the time.
Am I close?Pretty cool stuff. I'm hoping to understand much of this powerlogger when I'm able to afford one. Im still having fun with the new to me scanmaster.
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yes, the maf numbers are calculated...:)
In the mass air flow cars we have maf flow and rpm from which we can compute Load (lv8)
As we have no maf in the speed density cars, we have manifold pressure and rpm....
I suspect that Eric is backing an equivalent maf number out and using that to compute LV8
I suspect a really reliable map sensor is a benefit in order to have consistency.
Fueling is a 3d process as Load is not consistent with any one thing so we must come up with a means to vary fuel depending upon need since it is not linear with rpm And we need to be able to vary it with conditions...T hat's the reason I complain when guys are trying to tune their cars at part throttle for wide open throttle conditions.
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Drove the car up to Fort Worth yesterday for Charlies service and noticed something on the way back with the MAP numbers. Vacuum increased on the way home. As in at an idle it was a higher negative number and was cruising at a higher negative number. Before at idle I was pulling 15-17. Now it's pulling 17-18. cruising vacuum was higher as well. I don't mind the increase except that it affects the fuel pressure and thus affecting the AFR correction. It's not a pain but I had spent some time going thru the VE table setting the individual cells for drivability at cruise and part throttle to get the AFR correction to +/- 5%. Now all those corrections are jacked up. Will have to do the individual cells again.
Any thoughts on why the MAP numbers changed?
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When the weather changes tomorrow, or the underhood heat is different, you may get another set of readings.
Are you watching your analog boost gauge numbers vs your PL numbers?
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When the weather changes tomorrow, or the underhood heat is different, you may get another set of readings.
Are you watching your analog boost gauge numbers vs your PL numbers?
Watching every guage I have Steve. Analog vacuum matches the PL. Last night I was experimenting with the cooling fan on and off during highway cruise. Then noticed the increased vacuum numbers. Ambient temps were in the high 70's coming home. Not a real huge difference in density altitude from driving up in the mid 80's.
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If the be table gets to need different settings for more temp, how does the factory adjust its table to compensate for change in the temp? I guess this feature isn't includes in the sd2 software?
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vacuum numbers shouldn't matter - once you tune those cells I'd think it'd be good. vacuum changes at cruise so you tune those cells and move on. Its a process. It's not the fuel pressure moving around. 45psi base is 45 base it doesn't matter if you are in vacuum or boost.
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vacuum numbers shouldn't matter - once you tune those cells I'd think it'd be good. vacuum changes at cruise so you tune those cells and move on. Its a process. It's not the fuel pressure moving around. 45psi base is 45 base it doesn't matter if you are in vacuum or boost.
I agree that base fuel pressure set with the vacuum line off is constant but when the vacuum line is connected back to the FPR, would you agree that fuel pressure drops? I have seen the fuel pressure drop as much as 8 psi at idle when the vacuum line is connected. I have also seen fuel pressure drop as much as 10 psi when in a deceleration configuration. As in letting off the throttle and coasting without depressing the brake pedal. Look at your vacuum guage the next time you coast. I've seen mine as high as 22 when coasting.
With the increase in vacuum, the SD2 is now running in different cells on the VE table at varying speeds, MAP, tps voltage and at a lower fuel pressure. With that being said, I can either adjust the quick tune BLM cell for low and mid boost levels which may or may not adjust the AFR correction in that particular cell to my preferred correction tolerance or I go and adjust each cell on the VE table individually to get my preferred AFR correction. It is a process either way.
With the explanation above, I would have to disagree and say that it does matter when you're in a vacuum condition and agree that it doesn't matter as near as much when under boost.
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Obviously, fuel pressure drop depends on the amount of vacuum under varying conditions.
However, the amount of fuel variation to maintain a desired light throttle A/F due to your variation in vacuum is very small given the lean A/F and the low air flow.
I think you are looking at the science and forgot the size of the reality :) One can get really discouraged if one pursues the science without considering its importance given the reality. I might change my mind if your goal is the Mobil Mileage run :D
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You need to think about both sides of the injector. The fuel pressure drops on the regulator, but there is more vacuum in the manifold pulling on the injector. It all equals out.
The entire VE table will need to be tuned, and once it is - you'll be good.
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You need to think about both sides of the injector. The fuel pressure drops on the regulator, but there is more vacuum in the manifold pulling on the injector. It all equals out.
The entire VE table will need to be tuned, and once it is - you'll be good.
Yep, that is the most salient point. The injectors are constantly held in balance with reference to the hose off setting.
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You need to think about both sides of the injector. The fuel pressure drops on the regulator, but there is more vacuum in the manifold pulling on the injector. It all equals out.
The entire VE table will need to be tuned, and once it is - you'll be good.
Didn't think of the opposing side. Good point. That coincides with what Bison was saying about the increase in compression means an increase in MAP behind the throttle blades.
Would the ideal ambient conditions to tune the VE table be at sea level and 15 C?
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Sure would be nice if you were able to select a primary cell, adjust it and then have the cells around it adjust accordingly. Maybe it's just wishful thinking....
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Only so much memory in the chip
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Can tuner pro still edit the tables in a SD chip like it can in TT's ?
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Can tuner pro still edit the tables in a SD chip like it can in TT's ?
From the research that I've done, yes. But I would still talk with Eric to see if there are any idiosyncrasies with it.
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Spoke with Eric last night for about an hour. Man that guy is sharp! He confirmed a few things for me and blew some other thoughts out of the water. That's why I called. My thought process of tuning was on track but was pulling to one side of the road. He set me straight. I don't have enough words to express my appreciation for him.
I had no idea that there were some internal tables not available for viewing/[size=78%]tweaking, and that's where my confusion started. I was thinking that I set the fuel parameters to 128 and then tweak the VE tables. He suggested getting the AF correction as close as possible with the fuel parameters and then tweak the VE cells. The VE table doesn't auto adjust when changing a fuel parameter cell. The fuel parameter cells haveinternal fuel trim tables that are not available for viewing. [/size]
Again the learning curve...
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Eric is brilliant, but he is also a really nice guy as you say. Glad he got you back to the center of the tracks :)
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With all that was going on yesterday, I managed to get out on my back road test site and make a high gear pull. With Eric's input in the tune, I believe I'm headed in the right direction. This was still a test with low boost and a 10.8 target AFR. I'm going to keep the same boost setting and adjust the AFR to see where I can tweak from here. As I've mentioned before, I'd like to have a street tune at this boost level and then a "turn up the wick tune" for the track. Baby steps...
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Looked at that log Jason.......lo oks nice and clean to me...... O2's are nice n safe. Glad you got it running nice!
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Looked at that log Jason.......lo oks nice and clean to me...... O2's are nice n safe. Glad you got it running nice!
Thanks Guss! It looked pretty safe to me as well. Gonna try another high gear pass with the AFR set at 11.0 and go from there. Eric says 11.0 -11.5. Think I'll go .1 at a time after I get the 11.0 dialed in.
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Only so much memory in the chip
More to the point there is only so much memory that the CPU can access
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Was able to make another high gear test pass this afternoon with the AFR set at 11.0. Please have a look and tell me what you think.
The break up happening around 5000 rpm is what was happening before but that was before talking with Eric and the chip was pulling over 10% fuel. Seems to me that the combo liked 10.8 AFR better. This log shows the wideband really jumping around and the fuel correction really hunting as well. Something else is the lean spike as I'm getting into the throttle. Is there something that I'm not seeing?
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Got a call from a little birdie last night and he suggested I change the TR6 back to stock ignition. That's what I did. Same settings on the SD2 set for 11.0 AFR. Almost the exact same ambient conditions as yesterday's test pass with a little more wind. KR wasn't as high this time but still sustained around 5200 rpm. Perhaps 10.8 is all this thing can handle
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Are you using original coil and module or after market or ac Delco pieces for the "stock" setup?
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Are you using original coil and module or after market or ac Delco pieces for the "stock" setup?
Rich the stock ignition is just that. Original equipment stuff minus the plug wires
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Man you have a stash of stuff. I have been thinking of going to a new module and coil on mine as it seems to stumble at wot. Though I ran it real low on fuel a week or two ago and ended up putting in 14.5gallons. After that fill up I was able to get o2 in the low 700s pretty cool as it was dropping of to the 050 range before that .
Point is I guess I wanted to know if there is a good after market module to get or if I should think on some thing used.
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I have a Type II Ignition system for sale, But i can't post pics.Let me know your e-mail and i'll send to yea.
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Man you have a stash of stuff. I have been thinking of going to a new module and coil on mine as it seems to stumble at wot. Though I ran it real low on fuel a week or two ago and ended up putting in 14.5gallons. After that fill up I was able to get o2 in the low 700s pretty cool as it was dropping of to the 050 range before that .
Point is I guess I wanted to know if there is a good after market module to get or if I should think on some thing used.
I've picked up a few things over the last few years. Believe it or not Dave Husek has a stash of OEM parts that he sells off ever so often. That's were I got my NOS cam sensor a few months back.
I have a Type II Ignition system for sale, But i can't post pics.Let me know your e-mail and i'll send to yea.
I'm not certian that I have an ignition problem just yet. Thanks for thinking of me though and I'll definitely keep you in mind if it comes to that
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No problem.
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Been sitting here at work pondering on this... It appears that when I get to 5100-5200 that's where the problem starts. A little rise in KR and no advancement of RPM and I get out of the throttle. Does this with both ignition systems installed. The log on the WB is a bit erratic so it's hard to tell if there is a rich spike when this occurs. If that was a definite, then I would lean towards blowing out the spark. The no advancement in RPM is what is throwing a kink in my thoughts... I have a hard time believing that I could be floating a valve but could I be collapsing a lifter? All thoughts appreciated
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I'll run this by you, it reminds me of when I was having problems with mine. Look at the alternator. I don't care if it's new, rebuilt etc....When I was making a pass, at 5000 rpm and 3280 ft give or take the car would just dive and wouldn't accelerate, it wouldn't shutoff though. I found that alt. output was ok but spikes were happening throwing a tantrum to the ECM. New rectifier bridge, stator, diode trio and brushes fixed it right up. Don't know if that's what your dealing with but I would want to eliminate it. Most modern alternator testers have a diode test feature.
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I'll run this by you, it reminds me of when I was having problems with mine. Look at the alternator. I don't care if it's new, rebuilt etc....When I was making a pass, at 5000 rpm and 3280 ft give or take the car would just dive and wouldn't accelerate, it wouldn't shutoff though. I found that alt. output was ok but spikes were happening throwing a tantrum to the ECM. New rectifier bridge, stator, diode trio and brushes fixed it right up. Don't know if that's what your dealing with but I would want to eliminate it. Most modern alternator testers have a diode test feature.
How did you identify the spikes? Log?
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you can put your meter on AC volts and see what kinda AC is leaking out.
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I was at my wits end with the trouble the car had, the only thing I didn't look at was the alternator. I took the alternator off and sent it out to the shop in Lancaster that rebuilds and supplies my shops starters/alternators. He load tested it with his bench system and it failed miserably. If I had the Sun tester I have today, I believe it would have failed the diode test. Since it was only breaking up at 5 grand, I figured his bench tester could best simulate that speed and load. The stator and rectifier bridge were shot. It would've show up if I would have disassembled and component tested it on the bench, but I wanted to see dynamic breakdown.
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You might be able to take a portable Am radio (if they still exist) and bring it near the alternator in question. Spikes like that tend to have a lot of high frequency content making ugly noises.
Comparison to an identical know good one at the RPMs in question might tell you something.
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you can put your meter on AC volts and see what kinda AC is leaking out.
Hadn't thought of that. Still working so I'll give it a shot when I get home.
You might be able to take a portable Am radio (if they still exist) and bring it near the alternator in question. Spikes like that tend to have a lot of high frequency content making ugly noises.
Comparison to an identical know good one at the RPMs in question might tell you something.
Haven't thought of that either. I have an hand held radio for emergencies that has am capabilities. I'll give that a shot as well when I get home.
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Not a single crazy thing going on with the alternator. Had the wife helping with revving and me on the volt meter and old weather radio tuned to WBAP.
Spoke with TA performance while at work and had these waiting for me when I got home. With my installed height and one .030" shim, spring open pressure or valve seated pressure will be 160#'s. Up from 135. Plan to swap the springs tomorrow
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Big back story to the spring swap and I don't feel like typing. Got the springs swapped but no test runs yet. It's been a long day...
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Ran the back road test site before leaving for work. Still doing the same thing. Gets to 51-5200 rpm and stops accelerating. Slight rise in KR but still below 1 degree. No rich spike on the log.
Been pondering what the exhaust pressure is driving the turbine. I don't have a sensor installed on the header. I wonder if the back pressure is too much at that rpm restricting further advancement of engine rpm. Not sure how to test this theory with a sensor or how to remedy it if it is in fact a problem.
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Fresh plugs?
Are you back to the fancy ignition or the stock stuff?
I've read that the fancy ignition needs a tighter gap on the plug(might be knocking the spark off with high volume coming into the cylinder).
I'm guessing the fuel pressure is steady and you have a fresh filter on there.
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Jason - pop the wastegate arm off and wire the gate open, then take it for a run. That should take some drive pressure off the turbo and determine if it's back pressure.
Check all the stupid stuff.
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Fresh plugs?
Are you back to the fancy ignition or the stock stuff?
I've read that the fancy ignition needs a tighter gap on the plug(might be knocking the spark off with high volume coming into the cylinder).
I'm guessing the fuel pressure is steady and you have a fresh filter on there.
Stock ignition still on car
Plugs are NGK 5671a-8. Have run the -9, -10, and -11. Does it with all plugs
Fuel pressure steady, rises appropriately with boost, new filter and injector duty cycle is 51%
Jason - pop the wastegate arm off and wire the gate open, then take it for a run. That should take some drive pressure off the turbo and determine if it's back pressure.
Check all the stupid stuff.
That's exactly what I was going to do. What I don't know is what to do if it still happens. Bigger turbine a/r? Re shim the head gasket for lower compression?
I also thought about making a run without the air filter
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Exhaust plug somewhere? Do you run a cat converter? Can you open a dump?
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Jason - pop the wastegate arm off and wire the gate open, then take it for a run. That should take some drive pressure off the turbo and determine if it's back pressure.
Check all the stupid stuff.
Jeremy, I know you keep up with Sloppy Mechanics. This same issue cropped up with the 6L Sonoma. Yeah, it was something stupid. The erratic WB might be a tip off. I'd look there first. It'd be a simple fix.
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Yeah it's always a good idea to calibrate them often, if they have that feature.
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Exhaust plug somewhere? Do you run a cat converter? Can you open a dump?
No cat. 2.5 pypes with pro race muffler. They are a straight thru muffler. I do have a dump in place of the cat.
Jeremy, I know you keep up with Sloppy Mechanics. This same issue cropped up with the 6L Sonoma. Yeah, it was something stupid. The erratic WB might be a tip off. I'd look there first. It'd be a simple fix.
No erratic WB readings. Set the AFR at 10.7 and it's pretty consistent. Log at the house. Can upload on Thursday. I have a spare WB O2 sensor setting in the box. I could change it but don't believe there's a reason to yet
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Link to this sloppy mechanix problem. I'd like to be able to keep up. I searched and came across a nifty turbo regal with a 6L that was sadly stolen and stripped. Didn't see a problem noted other than the theft so I'm thinking that ain't it.
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The error brad is talking about: Matt (sloppy mechanics on YouTube) setup his new Holley ecu and the wrong wideband configuration was set. It was set for a ntk sensor instead of a Bosch- and it caused all sorts of fueling issues.
Can you turn wbo2 correction off? Is the map sensor reporting right? Sorry I don't have the powerlogger software to view the logs.
Usually when a turbo ls doesn't rev they check valvespring, spark and backpressure
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http://www.turbotweak.com/forum/index.php?threads/powerlogger-software-and-installation-docs.1687/ (http://www.turbotweak.com/forum/index.php?threads/powerlogger-software-and-installation-docs.1687/)
You can unload the powerlogger above. Works good for looking at logs. I have it on the desktop at home.
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Made a run with the waste gate wired open and had the same results. Still won't rev past 5200. It doesn't fall off a cliff when it happens. It just kind of stops going.
Anyway, I think I have identified the problem. Have to confirm first
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Anybody on here running a cam from Comp in the XFI family of lobes? If so, which lifters did you use?
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I guess I'm the only guy on here running XFI lobes.
Lots of reading/researching this weekend and spent a few hours on the phone with Comp cams, Mike from full throttle, Joe from Johnsons lifters, Tim from TA performance, that old fart Nick won't answer his phone and lastly jack Laswell. Supposed to get a call back tomorrow from Webers and I was supposed to call Dave Husek but time got away from me.
I didn't realize there was a sub culture of folks that like to spec out cams... And although some facts remain consistent, each person has a different theory and approach. Some think my spring pressure is enough on the seat and over the nose and then there are some that believe I don't have enough spring. Some feel a short travel lifter will fix my problem and some think my lifters are fine. Some feel that a limited travel lifter would work. Some have methods of setting lash that I have not heard of or seen but that's not hard to believe.
A few things are for sure, I'm convinced that I do not have an ignition or an exhaust pressure issue but I am more confused than ever about aggressive cam lobe rates, lifters and spring pressures.
More reading and research is required on my end as well figuring out who's information I will choose to trust.
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Paul Miller's approach is quite different again
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First question: What qualifies as an xfi lobe? I'm guessing it is a comp brand cam(you called em). Did they have recommendation s for a lifter and spring pressures to shoot for? They ground it I guess, one would think they might have a good idea what would work .
I'd definitely get on the horn with d husek, if for nothing else than to say hi from Texas. He probably has two cents to add as well.
Is it a difficult thing to add some spring pressure, swap in some different springs to add some and see where it goes. Is this a roller cam?
Glad you are making some head way.
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Did you buy everything together from one place? My LS has some pretty angry lobes and the springs were supposed to be setup for 155# seat. But I'm running a stock ls1 lifter.
I'd check lash first. Pushrods the right length?
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First question: What qualifies as an xfi lobe? I'm guessing it is a comp brand cam(you called em). Did they have recommendation s for a lifter and spring pressures to shoot for? They ground it I guess, one would think they might have a good idea what would work .
I'd definitely get on the horn with d husek, if for nothing else than to say hi from Texas. He probably has two cents to add as well.
Is it a difficult thing to add some spring pressure, swap in some different springs to add some and see where it goes. Is this a roller cam?
Glad you are making some head way.
If you look at Comp's master cam book, they have names for different lobe profiles. XFI stands for extreme fuel injection. It's lobe has an aggressive ramp rate and was designed for the newest LS engines and specifically a beehive spring that comp designed. This cam that I got off of Charlie was a custom grind using loves from that XFI family of lobes. Allegedly, that lobe is harder on springs. The folks on the phone at comp don't appear to have the greatest knowledge about their products. This cams profile, duration and lift is not something crazy or oddball just a bit aggressive on the ramp rate.
As long as there is room to not run into spring bind, I could add shims under the spring locaters for an increase in seat and over the nose pressure with the current springs. Changing to Beehive springs for me would require different keepers and locks. Yes this is a roller cam.
Did you buy everything together from one place? My LS has some pretty angry lobes and the springs were supposed to be setup for 155# seat. But I'm running a stock ls1 lifter.
I'd check lash first. Pushrods the right length?
I did not purchase the valve train from one place. I believe the lash to be set correctly and the push rods to be the correct length. I believe my problem lies with the lifter but that has yet to be confirmed
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I've seen behive springs for our heads. I will have to look at the comp site and see what the deal is. These roller lifters you are using at least similar to the lsx lifters? I'm not a big fan of cams that "test" the reliability of the valve train. I understand why you want to, just personally would rather have reliabilty and longevity over those last three or even thirty horsepower.
I'm betting you get to buy keepers and such and need those beehive springs. Maybe you can figure out a workaround.
So, I'm perusing the comp cams site and unloaded a PDF of their wares. Came across this in the hydraulic roller units. They seem to think you need the beehives. The ovate ones according to the description.
(https://s25.postimg.org/7kkqiaetb/wp_ss_20170321_0001.png) (https://postimage.org)upload pic (https://postimage.org/)
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Rich,
From the pic you uploaded, you can see the two lobes that are on my cam. 3013 on the intake and 3012 on the exhaust. Not so certian on there beehive springs working for me. I can get a negative cut retainer and retain the same locks. Also, I can add more shims under the locater. One worry spot is the retainer clearing the top of the valve stem seal.
I also heard new theories today from Dave Husek and Brian Weber. Their ideas of setting valve springs close to coil bind amongst other things. Brian also thinks that I don't have enough turbo. Heck I can't even get past 5200 rpm much less put the turbo all in. Crawl, walk, run method for me
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How close are you to coil bind now? Did either or both think the springs you have would work? Or maybe work with some shims to close in on coil bind and raise the pressure? Ive read good things on the beehive springs. Was there a reason you didn't go that way?
Your car and the parts have mad potential and i'm sure you will iron it out. No one, and i mean no one bolts it together, goes to the track and lays down personal bests first time out. I don't care who is lying to us. It just isn't done.
Just have to keep making adjustments. I am sure it has a 10 sec pass in it. Just have to coerce it out.
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Not close enough according to a few. Some want to run like a .100 from coil bind. Evidently the beehive is designed to kill a harmonic resonance if one occurs.
I'll get it figured out someday, the point being is not to give up
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Is the 49 still on it or the 6262? Sorry I can't keep up
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Is the 49 still on it or the 6262? Sorry I can't keep up
6262
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http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19599 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19599)
After reading this thread the only down side I see to the beehive is the money spent. And who doesn't have an unlimited amount of coin to drop on more cool guy parts?
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Someone should ask Billy Anderson why he won't use them
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Any set of good dual springs should be adequate...
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Any set of good dual springs should be adequate...
That would be nice if it were true. With this cam that I'm running, the aggressive ramp rate is making it difficult to find a spring with the appropriate seat pressure and not too much pressure when over the nose. I may have found a spring from kmotion if my rocker will clear it. It's a a tad bit larger on the OD than my current spring.
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Strange that Comp sells a profile that they cannot provide a spring for.
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Strange that Comp sells a profile that they cannot provide a spring for.
Steve, the way I understand it, that lobe was designed with the LS head in mind not the TA Buick head. The long valve of the TA head makes it difficult to get the installed height at what manufacturers recommend without a lot of math of varying thicknesses of retainers, locators and shims. The TA head was definately designed with a high lift lobe and solid rockers in mind.
It's coming together but wasn't easy as my understanding of valve train dynamics wasn't where it needed to be when I selected parts for my build.
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Hey, I am learning a lot. I'm a glutton for punishment but hopefully you will get it smoothed out. Sooner than latter. I'm pretty sure I will use the Pac springs and a split duration cam.
You are doing fine work.
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Jason, if you haven't done so already...cont act Bison. Just my 2 cents...but with the lengths you went to, I would have had him grind a custom cam for that build.
I ran a 204/214 cam in that .030 over block I tossed a couple years back when I cracked a second cylinder. I had a 231 standard bore laying around I went with. I consulted with Steve for a cam choice...and we went with a CC's 212/212 flat tappet with GM NOS lifters. Car has run its quickest ET and fastest MPH with that off the shelf cam.
Norbs went 134 MPH with a 210/210 and home brew heads and I believe Grumpy used a 212/212 for his 9 second run with Champion irons...and I'm betting Russ warmed them over a tad.
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Jason, if you haven't done so already...cont act Bison. Just my 2 cents...but with the lengths you went to, I would have had him grind a custom cam for that build.
I ran a 204/214 cam in that .030 over block I tossed a couple years back when I cracked a second cylinder. I had a 231 standard bore laying around I went with. I consulted with Steve for a cam choice...and we went with a CC's 212/212 flat tappet with GM NOS lifters. Car has run its quickest ET and fastest MPH with that off the shelf cam.
Norbs went 134 MPH with a 210/210 and home brew heads and I believe Grumpy used a 212/212 for his 9 second run with Champion irons...and I'm betting Russ warmed them over a tad.
Turbos and heads have consistently defeated cam theory for years-all the way into the 8's. I don't know how many people have explained forced aspiration camshaft theory to me over the years and have been indignant when I said, it was a waste of time. Yet, some of the smartest people I know are the slowest on the track. Got me, but, A good turbo will flow more air than the head port can squeeze thru the valve opening...and valve opening area is limited, and ultimately shrouded by cylinder bore diameter.
I know of two guys that have run 10.4's on stock cams and others that run mid tens consistently on them.
Roller cams are self defeating on serious lobe designs anyway if one is using hydraulic lifters. The lifters pump up long before the advantage of the lobe is delivered. Serious engines do not use hydraulic lifters.
I used to be a lot smarter than I am today, but, I started going faster the dumber I got :icon_eyes: :icon_eyes: :icon_eyes: :icon_lol:
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Cams...with these little engines...don't come into play until you go 10 flat and faster. Heads, turbo, torque convertor, IC and exhaust are where it's at. Biggest issue I see...is torque convertor selection.
I tested with a Champion race intake. The car was a turd for the first 100 feet or so...didn't matter how much low gear timing I threw at it, pulling low gear fueling or how much boost I put to it on the line. The intake runners were too big...just couldn't get enuf velocity threw them. We swapped back to the stock intake...and the car instantly went low 1.6's and high 1.5's. That made my mind up to sell the TA heads I had.
There's a young local lad I'm friends with that owns a TR...but stays quiet. One of the best tuners on the planet. He ran a Champion race intake. Best short time was a 1.7x
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Finding a converter that consistently spools up and transfer power is really hard to do..some spool and some transfer power....The converter has to present a load to the engine to get the turbo to spool, yet it has to have enuf slip to allow it to spool as well...it's somewhat of a dichotomy.
If you are making 25 psi of boost at launch but the converter is absorbing all of it instead of transferring it to the rear tires, it is wasted. There is a reason that good converters are very expensive....t hey have to get the engine into the power band at launch and throw the car off the line, then it has to tighten up and reduce slip from a large number to a low number as the car goes down the line. Tuning is relatively easy as the fast cars may run in a 600-800 rpm range thru second and third gears. That's the reason chips continue to work so well contrary to what vendors tell us. All the magic is in first gear and the converter makes or breaks us there.
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The one area where camshafts come into play is rpm. The engine has to be able to turn enuf rpm to get to the desired mile per hour with the given rear end and tire diameter. The converter slippage works against this.
Many still try to think of a forced aspiration engine as a regular engine and choose rear gears accordingly. Yet, in most cases, we find the higher the rear gearing (lower numbers), the better the car performs...3.2 5 is a good rear gear with a big turbo and good converter...al so helps to make launches more consistent
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Over the years I've seen guys go to a looser convertor...as they say it won't spool quick enuf on the line. In general, a looser convertor will spool well...but lose some at the top of the track. I'd rather have a tighter convertor that couples better at the top of the track. Tuning low gear fuel/timing will loosen a tight convertor on the line. Erics chip is notorious for being rich in low gear fuel...as I've seen 02's as high as in the 870's in low gear fueling. The hotter you can get a turbo...the quicker it'll spool. Pull low gear fuel...add low gear timing...it ain't rocket science. Erics 5.7 alky chip also incorporates aggressive mode.
Vendors pushing their LU convertors claiming you can leave them unlocked for racing is becoming an epidemic. I read a post by Dusty Bradford from years ago. The higher you can shift an AC convertor...th e better it couples...and AC convertors can be had for a song these days. Shift my AC at 5800. 105 MPH through the traps tells me it's doing pretty well at only 25 PSI.
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Cannot disagree with that. I am no converter expert, but, I can look at the log and see if it was doing its job.
Strange that over the years, the original Art Carr has consistently worked...and even more strange to me that the 911 seems to work well for most altho I broke one. I think that was a fluke and not the rule. In general, I like non lock ups for serious cars and I have noted that flavor of the months seem to often be hype and fade away. Maybe success encourages sloppy, cheap work because some burst on the scene hotter than sliced bread and then the later versions seemed to not work well.
I guess it is one of those cases that you some times do not get what you paid for and you seldom get more than you paid for?
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Jason,
I commend you for sticking with this. At this point I'd think it'd be easier to swap cams than replace and re-shimming springs.
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I think Jason is like me. He's gonna do it his way if for no other reason than to prove he can! I have more than one of these t shirts!
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I think Jason is like me. He's gonna do it his way if for no other reason than to prove he can! I have more than one of these t shirts!
As your offspring exchange knowing glances...
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Wow! Just checed this thread. Been super busy with work. I have to agree on the converter being intricate in the recipe. I must also say that I have almost considered swapping cams with a known setup that will achieve my goals. I have been that frustrated with it.
Some of the biggest lessons I've learned from this is the selection of lifters must compliment the cam lobe on a hydraulic roller. That being said, the spring must be selected and installed at the correct height and be closer to coil bind than my initial comfort level would like. So many different theories about short travel, reduced travel and standard travel lifters. So many different theories on cam lobe and duration. What I considered to be a reputable source for parts and information, I find out that the fella is not well regarded amongst buick purists. Next lesson, probably not enough turbo for this setup but I'm gonna run it till I decide it's not enough. Next, my converter is probably too tight to get me off the line like some would like but there's something about running somebody down that inspires me. And changing a converter is easy. Also, I have a converter guy just up the road who can cut this thing open and do anything I ask in a single day.
Huge learning lesson here to be sure and to be honest, I could throw it all back together and drive the car just fine. It just wouldn't be what I wanted it to be. And Steve is right, I'm gonna get this solved with this cam. I have a great belief that this cam with its lobe selection, lift, and duration is going to surprise some folks.
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Hydraulic rollers are a big compromise at the best of times in this type of application. Adding boost behind the intake valve certainly does not help.
If I were going to build a serious engine, I would use solid lifters so the cam could do what it was designed to do....it's so easy to pump up a hydraulic roller lifter and also easy to collapse it.
In the end, the turbo is going to trump theory and make the power...all the cam has to do is open and close the valves reliably. Spooling the turbo is largely the responsibility of the converter and a static compression ratio high enough to offset the thermal inefficiency of the aluminum heads where combustion is concerned. More heat thru more timing will get it started.
The one thing that a cam does is to extend the rpm range. We reach a point pumping more air thru the valves with a good turbo that we must have more top speed if we want to still be gaining speed at the finish line even if the converter is slipping only 2% (we wish)
This gives us two choices. The first is a combination of taller tires and a taller rear gear-say 3.23/3.25 which gives us more speed fora given rpm.
The second is a longer duration cam lobe profile which allows more rpm before the valve train ceases to be able to follow the lobe shape properly and bad things occur. Roller cam profiles tend to reduce the top allowable rpm while increasing the amount of area under "the curve" which is not as beneficial on a turbo'd car as it is on one that is naturally aspirated. This is particularly bad on a hydraulic lifter which is not only much heavier than a solid lifter but it also introduces pump up, etc.
On a stock block car, this is not always bad because we know our blocks are not built for high rpm as they are basically grocery getters from the onset. Wise men used to tell us that we are playing with fire if we turn a stock block past 5600 rpm. They were probably correct other than no one could predict how many times we could get by with it. Stock cast cranks have been failing at 35 mph for 15 years while others are still giving us run after run. The mickey mouse rods have hung in many times longer that most would have thought in many cases, Better cranks and rods are available and band-aided blocks have helped but we are not dealing with things that were meant to make 700-800 hp reliably. That is why we have Stage blocks and the TA blocks that were built to handle high rpm and high hp.
That puts some contraints on our engine designs...at least if we have any sense at all. IN my opinion that limits rpm to around 6000 rpm which is about what a good roller design in hydraulic can handle for short periods. That rpm and the effective rear end gearing tends to put a fuzzy ceiling on how fast the car can go theoretically. ..
Harsh hydraulic roller lobe design tends to work against us in getting all we can get out of it whereas the turbo does not care about stuff like that.....turn the boost up and get out of the way. Might help to pray for the block to stay in one piece but that is part of racing.
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Steve your thoughts on lifters, I believe are spot on. The whole reduced travel, short travel thing got me confused which is why I had to dig deeper to understand mechanically what goes on with these different type of lifters. Ill get it sorted and no, I'm not trying to win the rpm challenge with this build. Just want to get to 56-5800 for a shift.
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Like a old wise man once told me - combination, combination, combination. That led me to seeing how far I could push things, I broke stuff - but that's part of learning. :sw:
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Like a old wise man once told me - combination, combination, combination. That led me to seeing how far I could push things, I broke stuff - but that's part of learning. :sw:
Lawrence once told me that if I would simply tell him how much money I could spend, he would tell me how fast I could go...and then,he would try to tell me how often I would have to come back to get it fixed...
these days, I pretty much understand what he meant.
I'm still interested in theory....but, I have learned that with regard to turbo'd Buicks, the turbo and the converter are king and the cam is almost insignificant except for determining top end to a degree if one has a good converter. Think about it. How many logs have we seen where the car is trapping 120 miles per hour at 5600 rpm, but, when we compute the converter slippage, it is shown 25% or more?
Like you say, combination is everything but somethings count more than others :D If we are class racing, then hundreths can make a difference, but, in a bracket it can also beat you but it cannot help you win..only consistency counts. Then there are guys like me that sit there and think is it on green yet?
everything I say is contrary to what a vendor will tell you or what a magazine will write but I have nothing to sell but experience.
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LC was/is a pretty sharp individual.
I'm just glad you aren't charging us to partake in the experience sale.
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Why do BUICK guys complicate it so much?
A good fuel supply and spray the hell out of it
Don't have to worry about converters and such and dial up HP
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Lawrence and Janace are some of the nicest people I ever met. Janace is suffering a battle with cancer which is very sad but she's a fighter. Lawrence, Duttweiller, and Dan Strego brought a lot of brains to the table.
When Lawrence was going to run Tweaked in Houston, he would be dialing it in at the shop on Saturday morning. He was at the end of a row of shops and he would get out in front of the shops and launch the car. There was a Mustang shop a couple of doors up and he would almost suck those guys out of the shop when he went by. they got no work done on Saturday because they were all standing in the door watching him.
He ran a Powerglide with one of those bolt together converters and he would spend a couple of hours getting it to stall at 5000 rpm. He said even a couple hundred rpm off would destroy his times. He was running 7's in those days and very few cars of any kind were doing that. I don't recall if Dan Strego was in on the engine building then, but he was for Tweaked II
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Guys I really do appreciate all yalls input. I do not take your thoughts lightly.
The problem with my engine would not exist had I done my homework a little better with regards to the selection of parts for my combination. As Steve mentioned, vendors only want to sell parts. That's their livelihood. I should've done a better job of exhausting my research and deciding who's info I chose to trust. Is my combo undriveable? No. Just not what I was hoping it to be...yet. I have a few things to measure when I get off work and then I can get a couple of part numbers on order that will compliment my combination. A costly experience? Not at all and I know that's relative. I've lost more money to lousy sellers/vendors advertising bogus parts and paying for parts that I've never received.
Is my build complicated? I don't believe it is. Perhaps my explanation of things makes it sound more complicated than it actually is. Chasing your tail is easy to do when you're the valedictorian of the school of hard knocks
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I didn't mean to single anyone out I just meant turbo
buick people in general. Sorry.
And for the canadian guys the converter in LC's car was a vic Richards from Mississauga ON. yes that Sippery Vic.
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Sorry this thread got side tracked to a valve train topic but I wasn't exactly sure what the problem was or is.
Anyway, spent the day measuring spring pressures, taking a lot of precision measurements and then doing a bunch of math. After that was all calculated, then spent some time in the TA paper catalog as well as on the jegs and summit sites.
Taking all valve train theories into consideration, i.e. spring pressures for roller cam, spring pressures for forced induction engines, spring height settings meaning getting within .100" from coil bind or as close to that and still have adequate spring pressure over the nose and adequate spring pressure on the seat, insuring that the retainer doesn't hit the valve stem seal, making my own assessment of what is a good median for drivability vs racing... I think I got it figured out. Only one thing left to get and I won't be able to do that till I get it all back together and measure for pushrod length.
I'm not gonna throw out any numbers till it's all back together and tested. Probably will be another few weeks before that happens as I'm working 12 of the next 14 days.
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Everything is back together and running as advertised. Spent yesterday tying up loose ends and breaking in the new lifters, springs, pushrods, getting the coolant level set and then changing the oil and filter. Note to self, when tying up loose ends check the oil pan drain plug just one more time.
Weather was holding off this morning so I decided to clean the old girl up before getting it on the road for a test to see if it was going to rev past 5200rpm. I am completely thankful for all the folks that took the time to talk with me and educate me with this issue as it paid off. I got out of the throttle around 5600 as a cop car came over the hill on my test road. There was a bit of KR so still need to tune but overall I am pleased.
I may start another thread to lay down the numbers of my set up if anyone is interested.
log attached
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AF looks erratic...whic h may explain the slight KR. Boost is only 16...so if you have the alky on...that could be making the engine 'hunt' a little. Got a call from Dan one time. A customers cars engine was 'hunting'. Boost was only 15. Had Dan bump it to 20...and it cleared up. Figured the alky was drowning it at only 15.
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AF looks erratic...whic h may explain the slight KR. Boost is only 16...so if you have the alky on...that could be making the engine 'hunt' a little. Got a call from Dan one time. A customers cars engine was 'hunting'. Boost was only 15. Had Dan bump it to 20...and it cleared up. Figured the alky was drowning it at only 15.
That's a thought to consider. According to Eric, he says the SD2 will maintain +- .3 on the WB and it does stay within that parameter but it does move around a little more than I would like.
Going to reinstall the HD actuator, turn it up a bit and see what happens now that I can get the rpm's that I was shooting for
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Changed out the stock actuator to an adjustable HD one and went for another high gear run. Started at 17 psi and creeped up to 19 at 5600 rpm. Just a touch of KR going up to 5000 but then dropped to 0.
To be honest, the car scares me a little. I guess it's gonna take some getting used to going that quick
Log attached
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Jason...what's the low/high timing set at?
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Looking at the file it might be something it's hearing at a shift point in regard to KR. If you can...take off from a dead stop...so we can see the shift points...and if the KR occurs at one of those points.
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I told you it would be a real serious street car once you got it together. Just that much cooler with the chrome trim.
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Jason...what's the low/high timing set at?
High gear is at 19. Low gear... I haven't looked to see what it's at. I have a feeling the passenger side header is touching the upper control arm. It's pretty tight in there.
Looking at the file it might be something it's hearing at a shift point in regard to KR. If you can...take off from a dead stop...so we can see the shift points...and if the KR occurs at one of those points.
I don't have a tire that can hold it from a stop unless I put on the slicks. Not gonna do that on the street. I just need to get to the track.
I told you it would be a real serious street car once you got it together. Just that much cooler with the chrome trim.
Thanks Rich. Need to dial it in
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Dialing in is way easier than bolting it together. And way more fun too.
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Good for you on getting it sorted :cheers:
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These logs are just straight gas? How old is the gas? The knock is way down in the 3k rpm range. Not sure what it is but you only have 19* of timing there. maybe back it off half a degree or a degree and see but I think it is just picking something else up.
Its gonna be a deathtrap with alky and 30psi.
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These logs are just straight gas? How old is the gas? The knock is way down in the 3k rpm range. Not sure what it is but you only have 19* of timing there. maybe back it off half a degree or a degree and see but I think it is just picking something else up.
Its gonna be a deathtrap with alky and 30psi.
That's with alky. Gas isn't that old. I had just put some in the tank before tearing the engine down. Maybe 3 months old. I will play with the tune some more when I get off work.
Don't think I'll have the balls to put 30 lbs to it.
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Three months is winter gas and I would say it could use fresh. I know I picked up 3 or so mpg in the last two tanks as I guess they switch the formula as the weather warms up.
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Steve once said if you can run low 11's and be quick on the tree...then you ain't gonna lose many races. He ain't wrong. Jason, if you can consistently cut a quick lite...run a consistent 1.6x short time...run the low/high gear 02's in the 770's...you'll only need 23 PSI to run in the 6's easily.
Walking around guys is the wrong way of thinking. Get the low gear fuel and low gear timing dialed in...and don't give the SOB's an inch on the tree. Beat the stuffings outta 'em on the tree...and get it to haul it's ass through 1st and 2nd. High gear will take care of itself...give it enuf fuel so it won't hurt itself. The toughest part is getting these cars off the line...and getting them through 1st and 2nd. Leaving the line will depend on how slow/fast your car reacts...and how much 'roll out' your track has.
1/8th mile racing forces you to be quick on the tree...and forces you to learn how to tune low gear fuel and timing. It forces you to be a better racer...and a better tuner. Fuck up one iota...and you lose.
Something I've noticed. If you have a good lead on most guys...they'll give up...and you'll see them fading back. At this point...let your foot off the throttle and coast...don't ever let them see what you have. Most can't correlate ET and MPH anyway...so they'll think your car's a turd.
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Brad does Eric have launch assist in his chips? It was violent in Bob's chips. It put some heat in the manifolds for sure.
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Eric has 'aggressive mode' for his 5.7 alky chip. Bump the low gear timing to 129 or higher. This feature is only in his alky chip. I drag the low gear fueling to around 770 and bump the low gear timing as much as 6 degrees over his default to get it to jump off the line. The more heat you can throw at a turbo...the faster it'll spool...and the harder it'll hit. Erics low gear default fueling is notoriously rich. Setting the turn on point for alky is critical as well. The kit I had from Steve, I had coming on around 12-13 PSI. Any earlier, and you're drowning the engine in alky. Think Julios default is about 7 PSI.
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Thanks for the tips Brad!
I know a fella pouring the corn to his Buick and has 33 degrees in low gear with no knock
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Hadn't thought about the change in fuel blends Rich. Again, thanks for all the tips
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Jason...my reaction time is on the left. I play for keeps...don't give them anything.
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New question for you seasoned SD2 tuners...
I adjusted VE tables for different cruise speeds. 45, 55, 65 and 70 to get an AFR correction +/- 5. Now when I accelerate from a stop, I see that I am getting into some of the same cells in lower gears and the AFR correction is +10 and higher. Am I missing something or is this just the way it is with SD2?
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Something I learned over the years is that guessing is never a good idea...and to always go to the best source for information.
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Something I learned over the years is that guessing is never a good idea...and to always go to the best source for information.
I don't mind calling Eric to ask the question. Just wanted to throw it out here first
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Well, I had a few revelations today. For some folks this will be common knowledge but for me lightbulbs were going off.
First, cold start fuel is different than cranking fuel. Cold start fuel runs for 30 seconds or until the water temp gets above 130. Crank fuel only applies until the engine is actually running on it's own. It doesn't matter if the water temp is above 130, cold start fuel still applies for 30 seconds. I now have the idle pretty damn smooth set with closed loop on and AFR at 13.7.
Second, a little correlation between idle TPS and blocks 5 and 6. While adjusting the throttle blade to get the IAC down to 15 ( I swapped out the RJC PCV for a stock replacement), the TPS went up to .46. Looking at the PL, the ECM went to block 6 which is fuel for mild acceleration but not for idle fuel which is reserved for block 5. Eric's instructions state that blocks 5-6-7-8 are fuel trim blocks for different kpa with block 6 being idle and block 8 being WOT, he doesn't mention anything about the TPS being involved. I readjusted the TPS back to .40 and then the ECM was back in block 5.
Third, the closer I get the fuel correction to 0, the less erratic the WB is at WOT.
Fourth, Steve you were right. My combo likes 10.6. Made a pull at 10.7 and then adjusted fuel and set the WOT AFR for 10.6 and that pull was a whole lot cleaner.
Attached is a log of today's high gear pull with WOT AFR set at 10.6. Not sure where the 1.0 of KR came from but it was a blip in the middle of the pull
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big turbos, and good heads, add alky, and it likes it rich.....glad you are getting it sorted out....:)
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Made a high gear pull yesterday evening. Please take a look at the attached logs. Any recommendation s/suggestions are welcome. Also is a log at cruise and a log at a hot idle from yesterday.
I'll be going to BG this year. It will be my first trip to the Nats and probably my last.
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High gear shows a hint of KR at frame 529...but fueling tells me it ain't real. It's a safe tune. Turn the boost to 23...and hang on. That 7 flat run Friday night was at 23...with a lazy 1.71 launch...and I got out of it 50-100 feet before the traps when the knock sensor went off. 23 on up is where the fun starts with that turbo.
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High gear shows a hint of KR at frame 529...but fueling tells me it ain't real. It's a safe tune. Turn the boost to 23...and hang on. That 7 flat run Friday night was at 23...with a lazy 1.71 launch...and I got out of it 50-100 feet before the traps when the knock sensor went off. 23 on up is where the fun starts with that turbo.
Thanks Brad. Haven't been to the track since last years ford vs buick. I'll keep you updated from the track
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Jason...can you bump the boost up with SD2 and it'll automatically keep the AF at a predetermined value from idle right through to the traps?
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Jason...can you bump the boost up with SD2 and it'll automatically keep the AF at a predetermined value from idle right through to the traps?
In a nut shell.... No. The preset AF is based off TPS position. I believe it works like this, based on throttle position, SD2 goes to the a/f table and uses rpm and vacuum/ boost to target an AF based on a VE table using the same parameters. I do have mine set for closed loop at WOT so in theory I could bump the boost but would have to watch the a/f correction and adjust if I get outside the +- 5% rule of thumb.
If I explained that incorrectly, someone chime and in and school us all
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If you add 1 pound of boost...do you have to manually change the fueling like I do?
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If you add 1 pound of boost...do you have to manually change the fueling like I do?
Depends on how much increase there is in the a/f correction. I don't have any passes under my belt to know how much to adjust for 1 pound much less for the 18-19 pounds I'm pushing now.
I can adjust the fuel via the laptop quickly in one single blm block or I can go into the VE tables and adjust a bunch of cells. Works either way as I understand it
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Anybody else have a look at the logs?
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I did not look at the logs as I trust in Brad :) But, you are running a closed loop system so it is going to maintain the A/F as long as the required correction is within the range of the chip programming.
Doesn't the PL output show how much fuel the chip is adding or subtracting to provided the requested A/F number? If so, as long as the correction is not getting to the edge of its range, then I don't see anything to be concerned about.
As far as the actual A/F number that you program in, I would start with 10.6 and leave it there until you have achieved the boost you want to run, then you can start trying a little leaner to see if the car gets "crisper" and goes quicker. As I have said before, I don't always that leaner is meaner but testing tells the story. If spraying alky, my main concern would be to monitor it to be sure it is working properly each time as its function is probably more critical than the actual A/F number in my experience.
Your larger challenge may be to learn how to drive the car to get it to perform to its optimum. I think that is harder than tuning. :D
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I was waiting for Steve to step in for help with SD2...cuz I don't know shit about it. You're a smart guy Jason...and with Steve's help and the reading you do...you'll do just fine.
Steve hit a homerun with his last sentence. You gotta get out and practice. When I decided to bracket race the car a few years back, I had to run Sportsman class...which is 1/8th mile at my track. It forced me to learn how to launch the car...as I didn't have a clue running 1/4 mile. I was 'walking' around cars to win. Low gear tuning and setting the suspension is what gets these cars off the line...along with slicks and the correct tire pressure.
Forget trying to lean high gear out at 19 PSI...as it won't gain you much. Boost...is God. I keep saying...put the boost to it...and give it enuf high gear fuel so it won't hurt itself. Bump the boost 1 pound at a time until you hit 23 PSI...and go by Steves AF recommendation . If your fuel and alky system is up to snuff...you can run all day carefree.
Suspension. Women squat...cars don't. Not my quote...think it was Chuck Leeper. I had Dan Keller video my car from the drivers rear quarter. What I saw was this. The car was bottoming on launch...and then jumping up...unloading the rear tires. I had 90/10's up front and 50/50's out back...Lakewoo ds. I grabbed a pair of QA1 SINGLE adjustable rears...number 4 setting works best on MY car.
9 inch slicks-Try 12.4 PSI...and go from there.
Low gear timing. I run a crapload. You and I have talked on the phone...so you know what I run.
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I looked at em. I'm not what I'd think of as a guru or anything but I do have some questions.
In the high gear one the tps never gets about 4.34v.
Im not sure if this is a problem or maybe you have a floor mat in there and the pedal never gets to the floor. Might be nothing as the car accelerates well.
Also in the frames starting in the 460 range the afr falls into the 10 range and drops to the 10.1x range at the frame 470 and then rebounds back up. I guess this is where the fuel rail empties a bit and the pump catches up and gets the rail full again.
I didn't get to see any shifts. I guess you got that governor situated?
I have to agree the 19* of timing is conservative and it pulls good with it. And you get to drive it more without wrenching haha.
On the idle clip the o2 sure fluctuates a lot but I think that is because it isn't warmed up yet.
It is all good info to me. I'm just trying to learn. I got a nasty crack in the pass header I need to swap out.
Thanks for sharing.
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Just texting with Jason about AF for that chip. It's suppose to stay within plus or minus .3. His WOT...or as close as he got is from frame 483 to 542. AF is between 10.5 and 10.83...so he's within the operating window.
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Suspension. Women squat...cars don't. Not my quote...think it was Chuck Leeper. I had Dan Keller video my car from the drivers rear quarter. What I saw was this. The car was bottoming on launch...and then jumping up...unloading the rear tires. I had 90/10's up front and 50/50's out back...Lakewoo ds. I grabbed a pair of QA1 SINGLE adjustable rears...number 4 setting works best on MY car.
LOL, I like that, Brad!
While a car is sitting down in the rear, good cars are moving down the track. You do not want super soft springs or shocks on the rear...you want just enough compliance so that the tires stay connected to the track surface to prevent the tires from loading/unloading.
Dialing in the suspension is very important as races are won and lost in the first 60' with competitive cars. Remember that one tenth in the 60" time is usually about two tenths at the finish line on a ten second car. That's about 20 free hp.
We know the instant center on G-Bodies is not great. I think you bought the upper control arm relocation mod. Spend some time playing with the IC and then leave it alone. Don't do anything radical for a car if you are driving it on the street. Remember that radical moves to make the car hook has the opposite effect when panic stopping.
I don't like air bags very much, but one on the passenger side can help you make the car launch straight but it's use should be judicious. If you have two equal stripes when you launch, leave it alone.
Educate your right foot in launching.
One last trip to spraying alky. It can cover up a lot of sins when it is working but it may also cover up why your car is not going like it should be going. Makes it even more important to monitor fuel pressure
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Just texting with Jason about AF for that chip. It's suppose to stay within plus or minus .3. His WOT...or as close as he got is from frame 483 to 542. AF is between 10.5 and 10.83...so he's within the operating window.
I would not touch the A/F then
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Steve, I have a question. Why does the AF not stay bang on the target AF?
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I suspect the "coarseness" of the ecm's sample rate and memory size does not leave a lot of room for extreme precision. Chip does not give him room to improve the calculation precision. The FAST guys would argue something like that, but their results on ten second cars does not show the actual benefit that they talk about
It's only an 8 bit computer which is archaic, but it works
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Thanks...was always curious. I look at countless files on the other board and the AF never seems to stay bang on.
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Brad, have you ever noticed that some of the smartest people we know never seem to go fast?
they get so hung up with theory that they ignore what works.
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Thanks for the replies fella's. Practice, repetition at the track is something I don't have. That will be my biggest challenge for sure. Different car than my white t but I have the suspension set up very similiar. What I didn't do to this car is lower it an inch and when playing with the numbers, I found I could get the IC closer to the CG by leaving it at its stock ride height. This car is about 40 pounds lighter and it may be more than that since I removed the front sway bar along with a few other lightening mods. No bags, Bilstiens with a hellwig bar on the rear with 28x9 radial slicks.
I've done a pretty good shake down of all systems this weekend. All appears to be operational but we know how that can take a turn.
As for turning up the boost, I believe I'm going to learn to drive it, launch it, stop it and keep it between the ditches. It's already a handful at this power setting.
Rich, TPS has to be above 4.2 but no higher than 4.6 according to Eric's instructions.
Also, I'm still working the tune and believe I have the acceleration enrichment to high causing the rich spike. I also think it's causing a misfire and giving me a false lean spike as well. Which is what I think the little bit of KR was on the log. Shift points are up to snuff at 5500-5600. That only took dropping the pan 4 times. I now call tranny fluid the red rain. Let me say this, depending on your pump pressure, the weight of the governor will be different for every tranny for a specific shift point.
I'll start a thread for the trip to BG. Don't be surprised if I don't post a lot till I get back. 3 dedicated days at a track. Going to take advantage of it
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Agree on the pump pressure, also the tv setting, where you are at with the over pressure valve, and any internal leaks be it at the vb or else where. Every trans is different.
Very excited to see the stuff from bg. I guess Ken is going too? Should be a wild time.
And Like Steve posted. Be careful of who you listen to. Many just roll on theory. Actually laying down a number is way more difficult.
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Sounds like a good plan to me...hope you have a blast at BG
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Jason, be sure you have someone hold the pedal on the floor in the car while you look into the throttlebody to be sure the blade is very close to wide open...some times the cable stretches and you don't get the blade fully open...a few degrees off is okay...just not 20 :)
Rich, wide open throttle comes from the LV8 number so you can have full fueling sometimes at something like a tps reading of 2.8v or so.
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No leaks that I'm aware of. TV is set for a nice comfortable shift. Not harsh but firm at the expected mph for light throttle.
Ken is going. The Botkol brothers, Jack Laswell and a few others from the DFW area. I can't remember their names.
I'll check that throttle blade. Thanks for the heads up!
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Brad, have you ever noticed that some of the smartest people we know never seem to go fast?
they get so hung up with theory that they ignore what works.
I was installing the belts in the car today thinking about how best to answer...here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKT-eWMWXOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKT-eWMWXOE)
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rock: :rock: :rock:
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I was installing the belts in the car today thinking about how best to answer...here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKT-eWMWXOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKT-eWMWXOE)
*Like*
Props for not subjecting us to another trailer-park clip.
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I was installing the belts in the car today thinking about how best to answer...here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKT-eWMWXOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKT-eWMWXOE)
*Like*
Props for not subjecting us to another trailer-park clip.
C'mon Dave...SING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mKPCJUW2I4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mKPCJUW2I4)
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Can someone explain how SD2 differentiates a WOT AFR setting for closed loop between high gear and low gear or if it even does? As far as I can tell, as soon as the TPS goes over 4.2 volts, it sticks to the AFR set for WOT regardless of mph. Depending on map, it uses a different fueling table but sticks to the WOT AFR setting.
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Vid from Eric...not sure if it's what you're looking for. I would hit the other board and send him a PM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUqfOCI6gU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUqfOCI6gU)
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Vid from Eric...not sure if it's what you're looking for. I would hit the other board and send him a PM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUqfOCI6gU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUqfOCI6gU)
Thanks Brad! I've watched that clip a few times. The top row on the VE table is RPM and the column on the left is MAP. My understanding is that when you're in the high rpm and high MAP area in low gear vs high gear, meaning you're in the same cells only moving thru them at a faster rate in low gear vs a slower rate in high gear. Pulling fuel from the VE table in that area pulls fuel no matter what speed your at. So by pulling fuel in that area makes the fuel correction change but not the AFR. Does that make sense?
Think of it this way. I target 770 on the NB for WOT at the traps but do to the mechanical advantage of the gearing in the transmission, I don't need that much fuel in low gear to obtain that targeted 770 on the NB but my TPS still tells the ECM that I'm at WOT.
The 5.7 chip somehow uses the speed sensor to adjust timing and fuel in low gear. The timing works great but as you know, you can't pull enough fuel out of low gear. I just haven't figured out how the SD2 does it or if it does it all. Eric asks if the speedometer reads correctly, +- 10 mph, when ordering the 5.7 chip.
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I know for a fact that SD2, XFI, CBS, NBC or The Counterfeit News Network won't make my car go any faster...so I don't bother with it. Eric has zilch for feedback...so he takes an educated guess on fueling. This chip needs about 10 percent low gear fuel removed...and about 10 percent high gear fuel added. I added the full 20 percent high gear fuel when the humidity was in the 30's...thus making the low gear fueling richer...cuz when you add or subtract high gear fuel...it adds or subtracts it right across the board...and I already have the full 20 percent low gear fuel pulled. Track closes for the winter at 5pm on the 14th next month. The chip will be in the mail to him on the 15th.
The only thing that matters is that you know SD2 inside and out...so you can tune the car all on your own. You're a smart guy...and I know you'll have it wired for sound fairly quickly.
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Vid from Eric...not sure if it's what you're looking for. I would hit the other board and send him a PM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUqfOCI6gU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUqfOCI6gU)
Think of it this way. I target 770 on the NB for WOT at the traps but do to the mechanical advantage of the gearing in the transmission, I don't need that much fuel in low gear to obtain that targeted 770 on the NB but my TPS still tells the ECM that I'm at WOT.
TPS is not used by the ecm for wide open throttle fueling. Performance Enrichment fueling is handled by the Load Variable. If the TPS was used, we would get a very rich mixture in idle conditions when blipping the throttle.
You can set the TPS at 3.7v and still get the same performance as you do at 4.65v because it is ignored once the LV8 hits a certain level. ON the other hand, your AC won't cut off and you cannot program the chip :)
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with regard to tuning, looking at the instructions, I would probably use positions 6 and 7 to lean the launch down
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with regard to tuning, looking at the instructions, I would probably use positions 6 and 7 to lean the launch down
I was pulling fuel from those two blocks at first but the AFR correction increased. Studying the log, and barely in the 6 block maybe two or three frames when staging. Block 7 for the rest of the launch. Then of course block 8 after launch. I then went to the VE table and started working the cells in and around the bubble at launch. But guess what, AFR correction increased.
I was going to call Eric here I the next few days and ask his take on it
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Mail him a log
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Spoke with Eric. Emailed him the log to get his take on it. Spoke of my concerns and confusion. He's a good dude. I'll let you know what I hear from him
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I say a prayer every nite wishing for Eric to introduce traction control in his 5.8 chip...
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Eric got back with me and the log of the 10.98 run had zero's in all the cells of every table. I don't know what happened. Has all the info when I look at it. He says if you save the log after turning the key off, this sometimes happens. Really getting tired of all the little glitches with PL and SD2
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I always leave the engine running when saving the file after each run. I assumed it was like the Scanmaster. If you turn the key off...then you lose the data.
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PL pisses me off!! You hit the record after burnout save file at end of the 1320.......... then go to review and you have half the run. Too inconsistent IMO. I've made my best runs with that thing unhooked and sitting in my P/U. Set the fuel and timing in Erics chip and watch the SM and let er rip!
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Hey Jim,
If you're disenchanted with the PL........
You could always ditch the PL and get the XFI Sportsman. Cal will build you a custom tune for your set up.
Hell, You can even still log your runs with it.
It uses Speed Density so you can Sell off your MAF, ECM with PL and translator & Turbo Tweak Chip to offset some of the costs.
Keep your laptop / tablet so you can save & view your runs.
"Just Sayin"
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Not once have I had PL only save a part run. Not sure how long PL will record...but it's quite awhile. I start record when I get waved in at the burnout box...then save it on the turnoff road. Probably over a minute each time. Only thing I can think of is your getting a break in a connection somewhere while the car is in motion.
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Reading the instructions says the maximum recording time for PL is 45 minutes...so I'm betting there's a minimum. Likely an adjustment somewhere.
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Jim...power your laptop up and bring up PL. Press F3 or press the tab on the left that says Config and Download. Look to the far right bottom...and you'll see Min Record Sec. Type in the seconds you want for your record time. How many seconds is 45 mins? Lol!
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2700 about what i need to run the 1/4 :icon_lol: thx
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I've had lots of issues with the PL like driving down the road and the car starts running like crap with the SES light on. Turn the car off and then start it back up and it runs like normal. Did the same thing another time but I had the PL up and running. Look at the parameters page and all the blocks are yellow with red 0.0 in the cell. It was like it lost connection with the chip. Turned the power off, key back on, try to connect PL and it won't connect. Change ECM, add a ground wire to the ECM case, get another PL board, clean the ECM again for connecting to PL. It seems to be functioning for now but when will it act up again? I have yet to get the SM-G to work wirelessly. Hate to bother Bob about it when the cable works. He's a busy dude. The glitch with the log is just the latest in the line of frustrations.
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sounds like most of your problems come from not having cleaned the ecm board well enuf. Over cleaning can be bad too if you take too much off the contacts. If the car sits for a long time, I think a little oxidation builds up on the ecm connector and causes weird stuff. Usually just wiggling the PL female connector will fix it. Never had any problems saving except for my failure to do so.
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Jason, contact Bob with your specific issue. He had a glitch or two with the first batch. In regards to PL, I use nail polish remover and a soft rag to clean the board. I then use a plastic dish cleaner to clean off the contacts until I see them shine. You have to clean BOTH sides of the board. If you remember I cleaned the backup ECM back in August and it did a bunch of stupid shit. I hadn't cleaned the board well enuf. 2nd time up it worked fine.
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Are they gold or tin? ECM and PL?
If they are both gold we shouldn't have oxidation of significance. The number of posts indicating fixes by reseating PL suggests they aren't gold.
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Are they gold or tin? ECM and PL?
Tin
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Eric emailed me back. Man is he an awesome dude! As usual he set me straight.
Pulling fuel from blocks 5-8, pulls fuel from specific vacuum areas on the fuel tables thus increasing or decreasing the fuel correction. Pulling fuel from the VE table will increase or decrease the fuel correction at a specific point at rpm and KPA. All that is irrelevant if you have block 4 set to a hit a specific AFR, which I did.
His recommendation was to set block 4 to 97, which is closed loop but uses AFR table that can be adjusted to your settings, and then go into the AFR table to adjust specific cells for the launch.
Also, he mentioned that he thought the converter was too tight.
It will be at Jake's on Friday to get it loosened up.
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What do you think that converter is stalling and flashing to?
Is it a Nissan 245mm core?
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Eric emailed me back. Man is he an awesome dude! As usual he set me straight.
Pulling fuel from blocks 5-8, pulls fuel from specific vacuum areas on the fuel tables thus increasing or decreasing the fuel correction. Pulling fuel from the VE table will increase or decrease the fuel correction at a specific point at rpm and KPA. All that is irrelevant if you have block 4 set to a hit a specific AFR, which I did.
His recommendation was to set block 4 to 97, which is closed loop but uses AFR table that can be adjusted to your settings, and then go into the AFR table to adjust specific cells for the launch.
Also, he mentioned that he thought the converter was too tight.
It will be at Jake's on Friday to get it loosened up.
Block 4 allows you to set a predetermined AFR. Is that from a certain RPM? Or from a certain boost level? Or certain gears? Fill me in.
In regard to launch cells...what do they cover. 1st gear?
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What do you think that converter is stalling and flashing to?
Is it a Nissan 245mm core?
It pushed through the lites at 3450. I'm gonna guess he loosens it 250 RPM.
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I would say 600 is the number
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What do you think that converter is stalling and flashing to?
Is it a Nissan 245mm core?
It is a 245mm core. As for stall... Not enough
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Block 4 allows you to set a predetermined AFR. Is that from a certain RPM? Or from a certain boost level? Or certain gears? Fill me in.
In regard to launch cells...what do they cover. 1st gear?
Block 4 is fueling when above about 13psi of boost
Brad you kind of have to forget about the blocks as low gear - high gear. Everything is based off rpm and a vacuum/boost level. The fueling blocks are for a quick adjustment to fuel tables to adjust the AFR correction at certian vacuum/boost levels. To fine tune the AFR, you have to understand the relationship when telling the block to go closed loop and use the AFR table verses telling the block to try to maintain a specific AFR.
This is not tuning like I learned with narrow band and Eric's 5.7 chip. It's way more in depth
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Thanks Jason. I haven't got the patience or time for that. Far easier for me to make a practice pass with the car and come in and look at the fueling at the shift points and add or subtract as needed. I'm ready to raise hell on the 2nd pass.
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I have yet to get the SM-G to work wirelessly. Hate to bother Bob about it when the cable works. He's a busy dude. The glitch with the log is just the latest in the line of frustrations.
I was reading up.on the logger thing . Are you using the dropbox and the correct apx file in the file on your computer or tablet? That may have been for the aldlandroid app for the wireless tablet lots of info. Hard to keep it all straight. I'm fighting an uphill battle with window 10. Son assembled a new box for wife with ssd drive. It is fast but not without pains for this operator.
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I have yet to get the SM-G to work wirelessly. Hate to bother Bob about it when the cable works. He's a busy dude. The glitch with the log is just the latest in the line of frustrations.
I was reading up.on the logger thing . Are you using the dropbox and the correct apx file in the file on your computer or tablet? That may have been for the aldlandroid app for the wireless tablet lots of info. Hard to keep it all straight. I'm fighting an uphill battle with window 10. Son assembled a new box for wife with ssd drive. It is fast but not without pains for this operator.
I have no idea Rich. Had to do some turning on and off of some settings to get it to work with Windows 10 and the cable. Tried the wireless a few times to no avail
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I believe that is to set up a scanmaster G (round) using androids
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PL pisses me off!! You hit the record after burnout save file at end of the 1320.......... then go to review and you have half the run. Too inconsistent IMO. I've made my best runs with that thing unhooked and sitting in my P/U. Set the fuel and timing in Erics chip and watch the SM and let er rip!
Set up to trigger on the throttle. I have mine set to start recording at 3.5V and 10Sec min. That usually gets all of my runs including the burnout.